Artful Revealer
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I never realised you had a sense of sarcasm.
The Pagan X-mass/Yuletide/Saturnalia
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A Freeman
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Considering that Christ told us that NO ONE has EVER gone to heaven (John 3:13) except for Him, it is extremely arrogant and presumptuous for anyone to assume they are already "saved". Including all so-called Christians (Matt. 7:21-24).
We do NOT get to fill out our own report cards. That's Christ's job (John 5:22).
JoChris
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How do you explain this passage?
Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, This Is The King Of The Jews.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct19.htm
A Freeman
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There is a classic "Christian" myth that we will all be rewarded for being criminals (law-breakers/sinners), which is why this passage is so often cited.
Christ did NOT say to the thief that hung next to Him that He was "saved" or that he (the thief) was "going to heaven".
He said "today shalt thou be with me in PARADISE".
Is "paradise" the same place as heaven? Absolutely not! The following verse is 3 days AND 3 nights AFTER Christ's words to the thief.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Just to be sure, where is Father? He's definitely in heaven.
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.
Has anyone other than Christ ever gone to heaven? Not according to Christ.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.
So paradise and heaven are definitely two different places according to Christ, which means the thief could not possibly have gone to heaven.
So what and where is "paradise"?
Paradise is the place where a soul is taken immediately after it's been liberated from the body it was incarnating. It is known by other names, e.g. the astral plane/plain, but it is the place where each of us are given our "life review" upon the conclusion of our most recent incarnation.
A humorous depiction of paradise in the 1991 film "Defending Your Life"
Once we've received our life review, all of the bad/evil that we did in our most recent incarnation is erased, leaving only the cumulative good from that lifetime and from all our previous incarnations as well. We then either advance to heaven, or are sent back to Earth with only the good we've done. In this way, everyone is in the exact place they've earned a right to be in eternal time. Perfect divine justice.
The word "paradise" is derived from two Latin-based words: "para" and "dice" which together mean "for being told". Exactly what the "life review" is all about: telling us what we did right and what we did wrong so we can hopefully learn.
This should help make sense of how Christ could say to the thief that he would be with Him (Christ) in paradise, before telling Mary Magdalene three days later that He had not yet ascended to heaven.
So there is no "quick and easy" path to heaven. The strait and narrow Way that leads to Life is one of discipline, obedience and a genuine love for the truth, which is why so few find it.
John 14:15-24
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I Live, ye shall live also.
14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
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JoChris
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Question: "What is paradise? Is paradise a different place than Heaven?"
Answer: Paradise is a place of blessing where the righteous go after death. The word paradise is usually used as a synonym for “heaven” (Revelation 2:7).
When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used “paradise” as a synonym for “heaven.” The apostle Paul wrote of someone (probably himself) who “was caught up to paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4). In this context, paradise obviously refers to heaven.
There has always been a separation of believers and unbelievers after death (Luke 16:19-31). The righteous have always gone to paradise; the wicked have always gone to hell. For right now, both paradise and hell are “temporary holding places” until the day when Jesus Christ comes back to judge the world based on whether or not individuals have believed in Him. The first resurrection is of believers who will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive rewards based on meritorious service to Him. The second resurrection will be that of unbelievers who will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment of God. At that point, all will be sent to their eternal destination—the wicked to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15), and the righteous to a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21—22).
There are cases in which paradise can refer to the Garden of Eden, such in the Douay-Rheims translation of Genesis 3:8, which speaks of Adam and Eve hiding “amidst the trees of paradise.” The context of the word will determine whether it refers to heaven or Eden.
https://www.gotquestions.org/paradise.html
Answer: Paradise is a place of blessing where the righteous go after death. The word paradise is usually used as a synonym for “heaven” (Revelation 2:7).
When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used “paradise” as a synonym for “heaven.” The apostle Paul wrote of someone (probably himself) who “was caught up to paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4). In this context, paradise obviously refers to heaven.
There has always been a separation of believers and unbelievers after death (Luke 16:19-31). The righteous have always gone to paradise; the wicked have always gone to hell. For right now, both paradise and hell are “temporary holding places” until the day when Jesus Christ comes back to judge the world based on whether or not individuals have believed in Him. The first resurrection is of believers who will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive rewards based on meritorious service to Him. The second resurrection will be that of unbelievers who will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment of God. At that point, all will be sent to their eternal destination—the wicked to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15), and the righteous to a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21—22).
There are cases in which paradise can refer to the Garden of Eden, such in the Douay-Rheims translation of Genesis 3:8, which speaks of Adam and Eve hiding “amidst the trees of paradise.” The context of the word will determine whether it refers to heaven or Eden.
https://www.gotquestions.org/paradise.html
Come on now, "dechristianization" is going a bit far. People grow through different phases, recognizing holy days is a personal thing.
I do like your take on Christmas, it's just a natural way to look at it. You reminded me of a quote by Haile Selassie (who was Ethiopian Orthodox) about the universal recognition of the holiday:
"The birth of Our Lord is a joyous family event. However, I do not only rejoice with my kindred and family since the whole Ethiopian nation is my family. I say this in the context of Christmas being observed by all churches in Ethiopia. I rejoice on this occasion also because of Jesus Christ being given for us. For He was born in the lowly place and got warmth by animals. This fact encourages us to celebrate it with joy.
When I have visited the five large continents, I have not been anywhere where there was not a church. All over the world I have come to know that the birth of Jesus Christ is celebrated... When I say the whole world it does not mean that all people would observe it in the same manner. In all the places that I have visited, including the Muslims and the Buddhists, We have seen the observance. But for Christians it is an act conducted with love."
A Freeman
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It's understood why "Christians" would like to believe this popular myth - that we can live a life of doing whatever we wish and then say "I'm sorry for it all and now believe" at the very end and that will somehow result in a free pass to heaven.
But it won't. And never did. And asking those who have a vested interest in this myth how they see it is like asking the proverbial fox whether he ought to be allowed to live in the hen house.
No one has been to heaven according to Christ.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.
Believe Christ (the Truth) in preference to anyone and everyone else. Particularly those who are calling Christ a liar, which is exactly what anyone who claims heaven and paradise are the same place is doing.
On Judgment Day, every single one of us will be judged according to our WORKS.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.
Revelation 20:12-13
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and deathand hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
"Christianity" has it WRONG. Christ has RIGHT. Believe Christ.
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-- Mahatma Gandhi
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A Freeman
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To illustrate how antichrist the "answer" at https://www.gotquestions.org/paradise.html really is, compare this line:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
With this:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Artful Revealer
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Thanks for the quotation.
I didn't mean it as an insult, but the spirit is one of dechristianisation equal to that of the secular powers of the West seeking to remove all Christian references from public life. This may be more obvious in Europe than in the United States, but employees in public office and general business etiquette are required to say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Here, in Europe, our Christmas markets have been renamed Winter Festival. Many of our Christmas markets have been disallowed to put the nativity scene for laic and multiconfessional reasons. It is symptomatic of a Judeo-Masonic culture seeking to remove all meaning from Christian tradition and symbols and subject them to a nihilist and consumerist paradigm.
This was already a concern in the Britain of halfway the 20th century, expressed by, among others, C.S. Lewis in a satirical piece called "X-mas and Christmas: A Lost Chapter of Herodotus" (1954):
In the middle of winter when fogs and rains most abound they have a great festival which they callExmas , and for fifty days they prepare for it in the fashion I shall describe. First of all, every citizen is obliged to send to each of his friends and relations a square piece of hard paper stamped with a picture, which in their speech is called anExmas-card . But the
pictures represent birds sitting on branches, or trees with a dark green prickly leaf, or else men in such garments as the Niatirbians believe that their ancestors wore two hundred years ago riding in coaches such as their ancestors used, or houses with snow on their roofs. And the Niatirbians are unwilling to say what these pictures have to do with the festival, guarding (as I suppose) some sacred mystery. And because all men must send these cards the market-place is filled with the crowd of those buying them, so that there is great labour and weariness.
But having bought as many as they suppose to be sufficient, they return to their houses and find there the like cards which others have sent to them. And when they find cards from any to whom they also have sent cards, they throw them away and give thanks to the gods that this labour at least is over for another year. But when they find cards from any to whom they have not sent, then they beat their breasts and wail and utter curses against the sender; and, having sufficiently lamented their misfortune, they put on their boots again and go out into the fog and rain and buy a card for him also. And let this account suffice about Exmas-cards.
They also send gifts to one another, suffering the same things about the gifts as about the cards, or even worse. For every citizen has to guess the value of the gift which every friend will send to him so that he may send one of equal value, whether he can afford it or not. And they buy as gifts for one another such things as no man ever bought for himself. For the sellers, understanding the custom, put forth all kinds of trumpery, and whatever, being useless and ridiculous, sell as an Exmas gift. And though the Niatirbians profess themselves to lack sufficient necessary things, such as metal, leather, wood and paper, yet an incredible quantity of these things is wasted every year, being made into the gifts.
But during these fifty days the oldest, poorest and the most miserable of citizens put on false beards and red robes and walk in the market-place; being disguised (in my opinion) as Cronos. And the sellers of gifts no less than the purchasers become pale and weary, because of the crowds and the fog, so that any man who came into a Niatirbian city at this season would think that some great calamity had fallen on Niatirb. This fifty days of preparation is called in their barbarian speech the ExmasRush .
But when the day of the festival comes, then most of the citizens, being exhausted with theRush , lie in bed till noon. But in the evening they eat five times as much supper as on other days and, crowning themselves with crowns of paper, they become intoxicated. And on the day after Exmas they are very grave, being internally disordered by the supper and the drinking and reckoning how much they have spent on gifts and on the wine. For wine is so dear among the Niatirbians that a man must swallow the worth of a talent before he is well intoxicated.
Such, then, are their customs about the Exmas. But the few among the Niatirbians have also a festival, separate and to themselves, called Crissmas , which is on the same day as Exmas. And those who keep Crissmas, doing the opposite to the majority of the Niatirbians, rise early on that day with shining faces and go before sunrise to certain temples where they partake of a sacred feast. And in most of the temples they set out images of a fair woman with a new-born Child on her knees and certain animals and shepherds adoring the Child. (The reason of these images is given in a certain sacred story which I know but do not repeat.)
But I myself conversed with a priest in one of these temples and asked him why they kept Crissmas on the same day as Exmas; for it appeared to me inconvenient. But the priest replied, It is not lawful, O Stranger, for us to change the date of Crissmas, but would that Zeus would put it into the minds of the Niatirbians to keep Exmas at some other time or not to keep it at all. For Exmas and theRush distract the minds even of the few from sacred things. And we indeed are glad that men should make merry at Crissmas; but in Exmas there is no merriment left. And when I asked him why they endured the Rush, he replied, It is, O Stranger, a racket ; using (as I suppose) the words of some oracle and speaking unintelligibly to me (for aracket is an instrument which the barbarians use in a game calledtennis ).
But what Hecataeus says, that Exmas and Crissmas are the same, is not credible. For the first, the pictures which are stamped on the Exmas-cards have nothing to do with the sacred story which the priests tell about Crissmas. And secondly, the most part of the Niatirbians, not believing the religion of the few, nevertheless send the gifts and cards and participate in theRush and drink, wearing paper caps. But it is not likely that men, even being barbarians, should suffer so many and great things in honour of a god they do not believe in. And now, enough about Niatirb.
In the end it comes down to how the people choose to celebrate and interpret Christmas. We have the power over its meaning. We either hold on to its increasingly materialist dimensions, we resuscitate its Christian dimensions, or we abandon it altogether. Only one of them is a spirit that doesn't dechristianise.
Artful Revealer
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Paradise is from ancient-Persian pairi: "around" (PIE: per, "in front of") + diz: "form, build (a wall)". It basically means an enclosure, or a walled / fenced park. This is also the meaning in Genesis, since Paradise is a garden in Eden, meaning it's an area within an area.
You can't use a word in a language which has borrowed from Greek, over Avestan, from Proto-Indo-European language, and then change the etymological roots of the borrowed word to the language that did the borrowing. It doesn't work like that. Some people take the meaning of words more seriously.
shankara
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Yeah these people have a serious problem grasping real etymology... Noticed them trying to do Temurah with English words!
Artful Revealer
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What's Temurah?
shankara
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It's one of the Kabbalistic techniques, not exactly what they were doing but similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temurah_(Kabbalah)
Artful Revealer
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Right, I came across that once but it must've fallen out of my head. Thanks!
bible_student
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Have a question, please:
Those of you who contend that paradise and heaven refer to the same place, can you explain to me please how you believe you are able to reconcile what Jesus said in Luke 23:43 with what He said 3 days & 3 nights later in John 20:17?
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Then, 3 days and 3 nights later (which is therefore more than one day AFTER He said the above words to the man who was next to him):
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
In case what is being asked is not clear, Jesus in John 20:17 says He had not yet gone up to Father (in heaven) since the Cross, but from the Cross, He said to the man next to him, that to day (the same day) he would be with Him (with Jesus) in paradise.
Anyone can answer, but hearing how Christians in particular would answer this seeming conundrum, would be of particular interest and be appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Those of you who contend that paradise and heaven refer to the same place, can you explain to me please how you believe you are able to reconcile what Jesus said in Luke 23:43 with what He said 3 days & 3 nights later in John 20:17?
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Then, 3 days and 3 nights later (which is therefore more than one day AFTER He said the above words to the man who was next to him):
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
In case what is being asked is not clear, Jesus in John 20:17 says He had not yet gone up to Father (in heaven) since the Cross, but from the Cross, He said to the man next to him, that to day (the same day) he would be with Him (with Jesus) in paradise.
Anyone can answer, but hearing how Christians in particular would answer this seeming conundrum, would be of particular interest and be appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
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Artful Revealer
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I would concur that Paradise known from Genesis and the Kingdom of Heaven are two different things.
With regard to your conundrum, the only logical solution would be that Christ is God and that when Christ (who is God) said to Dismas that they'd be together in paradise that day, while Jesus did not ascend yet that day, it proves the immanence of God in Jesus while being transcendent in Heaven. The hypostasic union of man and God in Jesus Christ is the only non-contradictory explanation.
Good question!
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bible_student
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This reasoning behind this sounds very complicated to me, but nevertheless, thank you @Artful Revealer for this response. Is it really the only possible non-contradictory explanation to this seeming conundrum, though?
P.S. Would any of the other Christians here be willing to also propose any other explanations that they deem to be satisfactory, to this seeming conundrum, please? If so, it would be appreciated and interesting to hear them.
Q: How can the man have been in "heaven" (check ?) with Jesus that day (Luke 23:43)... when Jesus is saying that He did not ascend to heaven (check) until after a full 3 days and 3 nights later (John 20:17)?
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Lisa
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Seems clear cut to me..Jesus tells us that and so do Paul and Silas...you‘re going against scripture here.
Acts 16:29-31
And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomsoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomsoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
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A Freeman
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Even though the word "paradise" entered the English language from French, which is, in fact, a Latin-based language, did you realize what you shared actually provides further confirmation that "paradise" cannot possibly be referring to heaven, just as it doesn't refer to heaven when Christ spoke those words from the cross to the thief hanging next to Him?
Does a "walled / fenced park" sound like heaven to you? Heaven being the creation and home of our INFINITE and LIMITLESS Creator, Who is the Supreme Being and King Ruler of the Universe?
Or does it sound like yet another perfect description of a controlled area for processing souls waiting for reassignment after their life review?
And why did you ignore the very simple fact that there's no way around the Scripture, which provides us with IRREFUTABLE PROOF that paradise and heaven are two DIFFERENT places?
Could it be that you ignored the truth about heaven and paradise being two different places because you can't handle the truth?
The truth of the matter is this:
No one has ever been "saved" (gone to heaven).
Christianity, like all other religions, has a 100% FAILURE RATE in providing their paying customers with their advertised service of salvation brokering.
The leaders of Christianity, i.e. the priests, pastors, etc., are therefore ALL con-artists/snake-oil salesmen, just as their counterparts are in every other organized religion on planet Earth. Which means NOTHING they say can be trusted.
So Christ was right about everything all along. no one has gone to heaven (John 3:13), ALL that came before Him are thieves and robbers (John 10:8), ALL priests, pastors, rabbis, imams, etc. are "the blind leading the blind" (Matt. 15:14), nobody but heathens and hypocrites go to churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. (Matt. 6:5-8), all of which are satanic places of business (Matt. 6:24) where God does NOT dwell (Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24). Why would God dwell in satanic places of business ran by con-artists and snake oil salesmen?
How can Satan and his churches, with their con-artists and snake-oil salesmen, be so successful selling everybody a FAKE bill of goods (a LIE), over and over and over again, for thousands of years?
Is it not for the very same reason Santa/Satan has been so successful?
People on this planet seem to love Satan's LIES and hate the Truth.
Isaiah 30:9-11
30:9 That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear The Law of the "I AM":
30:10 Which say to the Seers, See not; and to the Prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits (LIES):
30:11 Get you out of The Way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Psalm 53:1-3
53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good.
53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.
53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:10-12
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of The Way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
"And because I tell [you] the Truth, ye believe me not."
- Christ, The King of kings - John 8:36 Kok (John 8:45 KJV).
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bible_student
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The phrases "will be" and "shall not" are in future tense. It says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,.. rather than "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you are saved", so, being saved according to this verse, if we read it as it is written, is therefore shown to be promised as a future fulfillment in that verse on the condition of believing.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.