Sufi Muslims And Gnosis

[AspiringSoul]

Ah, I thought you were more of a mystic muslim, wouldn't have thought sunni.

that was my point ie the major sufis were mainstream orthodox sunnis
mysticism is a part of religion........afterall this whole time i've been saying that we connect with God's Immanence through the 'mystical' ie the heart. That is mysticism. It isn't some type of voodoo like how you might imagine it to be.

 

[JoChris]

That is even more Sufis have in common with Roman Catholics.

Similarities: RCs' extra biblical revelations - led to so many new doctrines it is a different religion.
They also visit saints' graves, pray to Mary and saints, and seek mystic union with God, and spiritual ecstasy in a similar fashion to Sufis. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy

 

[Lisa]

that was my point ie the major sufis were mainstream orthodox sunnis
mysticism is a part of religion........afterall this whole time i've been saying that we connect with God's Immanence through the 'mystical' ie the heart. That is mysticism. It isn't some type of voodoo like how you might imagine it to be.

Mysticism does seem to be some kind of voodoo honestly.

 

[AspiringSoul]

From several articles I have read it seems Sufism has way more in common with Gnosticism and other Pantheistic faiths than Islam.
I admit I am reading Christian perspective articles though, so if a Sufi Muslim wants to clarify their position further please do.

the majority of sufis were orthodox sunni
the thing is with sufism there are 4 steps and the first step is Shariah
so a sufi has to abide by the same rules of islam any other muslim does, the difference being that the sufi has an emphasis on the mystical paths (ie the next 3 steps)
I don't think a person needs to classify themselves as sufi because in terms of metaphysics we're all the same. some people are sufi just by the way they live and how they approach God...
to me the emphasis on sufi islam is due to the emphasis they have on the mystical which other non-sufi muslims tend to lack.

I think you're trying to find ways you can relate to sufism within a christian context yet ironically to me
christianity as a whole, itself..was built on the mystical aspects of judaism.
so it is a mystical tradition from the get go, most of what Jesus referred to was mystical.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Mysticism does seem to be some kind of voodoo honestly.

new age mysticism is something else

This is a good explanation.
belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
"St Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism"


a regular good muslim prays 5 times a day and abides by the basic rules of halal/haram ie avoids alcohol, pork, premarital sex etc.

the problem here is, what if a person is not 'good', sinful? can't seem to pray 5 times a day etc.
We're forced to look inwards and to understand ourselves ie the mind, heart...
sufi islam is the branch of islam that deals with these matters, at least in my experiences.

 

[Lisa]

new age mysticism is something else

This is a good explanation.
belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
"St Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism"


a regular good muslim prays 5 times a day and abides by the basic rules of halal/haram ie avoids alcohol, pork, premarital sex etc.

the problem here is, what if a person is not 'good', sinful? can't seem to pray 5 times a day etc.
We're forced to look inwards and to understand ourselves ie the mind, heart...
sufi islam is the branch of islam that deals with these matters, at least in my experiences.

Is that Theresa of Avila? She was a catholic mystic not a Christian anyway.
So would you be a sunni with sufi tendencies?

 

[AspiringSoul]

@manama honestly i could easily answer all of your points but i know full well you are only here to promote your sectarian views so what would be the point? i don't see your approach as being very honest.

 

[JoChris]

the majority of sufis were orthodox sunni
the thing is with sufism there are 4 steps and the first step is Shariah
so a sufi has to abide by the same rules of islam any other muslim does, the difference being that the sufi has an emphasis on the mystical paths (ie the next 3 steps)
I don't think a person needs to classify themselves as sufi because in terms of metaphysics we're all the same. some people are sufi just by the way they live and how they approach God...
to me the emphasis on sufi islam is due to the emphasis they have on the mystical which other non-sufi muslims tend to lack.

I think you're trying to find ways you can relate to sufism within a christian context yet ironically to me
christianity as a whole, itself..was built on the mystical aspects of judaism.
so it is a mystical tradition from the get go, most of what Jesus referred to was mystical.

Do you agree with this article's statement that Sufi is compatible with BOTH Sunni ahd Shia? http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-sunni-and-sufi/

That doesn't make any sense how that can be possible.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Do you agree with this article's statement that Sufi is compatible with BOTH Sunni ahd Shia? http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-sunni-and-sufi/

That doesn't make any sense how that can be possible.

The sunni/shia divide deals with the theological aspects of islam whereas sufi deals with the mystical aspects of islam
that is all.
of course they overlap at times because you can't have one without the other.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Is that Theresa of Avila? She was a catholic mystic not a Christian anyway.
So would you be a sunni with sufi tendencies?

I didn't know who she is because I didn't look her up
but I disagree when you say 'not a christian'
just like @manama says a sufi is not a muslim
please keep your sectarian prejudices out of this.

Her explanation of the word mysticism is what i was quoting and it's a good explanation.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@JoChris
you know how it says "you will be a priest forever after the ORDER of Melchizedek"
this is not mainstream judaism yet it's something that can exist in parallel to mainstream judaism. Jesus Christ is an example of this.
Now Christianity was an order too..the problem was with christianity being given to gentiles then it had to step away from judaism for that one purpose. islam doesn't have that problem because shariah is for all people regardless of their race...
so the sufi orders exist parallel to the main sects of islam.

The major sufi orders are
Chishti
Qadri
Naqshbandi
Mewelvi
but there are many more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariqa
look how many there are listed here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sufi_orders

so many right? most of them are sunni muslims.

 

[AspiringSoul]

example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadhili
The Shadhili Tariqa (Arabic: الطريقة الشاذلية‎‎) is a Sufi order of Sunni Islam

 

[Lisa]

I didn't know who she is because I didn't look her up
but I disagree when you say 'not a christian'
just like @manama says a sufi is not a muslim
please keep your sectarian prejudices out of this.

Her explanation of the word mysticism is what i was quoting and it's a good explanation.

You can disagree but catholic is not Christian. It's not sectarian but a fact.

Well it would be a good explanation as she was a catholic mystic. She was a nun and had some strange happenings in her life like levitation.

 

[JoChris]

And you need to keep that in context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+5:1-10&version=KJV
The priest forever in the order of Melchisedec is ONLY Jesus. No-one else.
Christ fulfilled all the prophecies given to the Jews (see Old Testament). Christianity is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews).

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek (or Gentile), there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[AspiringSoul]

And you need to keep that in context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+5:1-10&version=KJV
The priest forever in the order of Melchisedec is ONLY Jesus. No-one else.
Christ fulfilled all the prophecies given to the Jews (see Old Testament). Christianity is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews).

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek (or Gentile), there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I agree in some respects but also believe your doctrines are anti-christian and not true to the gospels and therefore the very Order being referred to here, cannot work with false doctrines.

Also with regards to the fulfillment of prophecies, Jesus fulfilled some, some he'll fulfill when he returns but not all are about him, many are about Islam itself. For example isaiah 42 is split in 3 sections
the first is about Jesus Christ but in truth most of it hasn't been fulfilled until he returns (ie bringing justice to the nations).
The second part is about ISLAM
and the final part is about the jews in response to the 2 major events.

 

[JoChris]

I agree in some respects but also believe your doctrines are anti-christian and not true to the gospels and therefore the very Order being referred to here, cannot work with false doctrines.

Also with regards to the fulfillment of prophecies, Jesus fulfilled some, some he'll fulfill when he returns but not all are about him, many are about Islam itself. For example isaiah 42 is split in 3 sections
the first is about Jesus Christ but in truth most of it hasn't been fulfilled until he returns (ie bringing justice to the nations).
The second part is about ISLAM
and the final part is about the jews in response to the 2 major events.

They are very Christian. Those quotes are from the Christian bible in context.
Your problem is that they do not fit your Islamic (mis)understanding of Christianity.

And for the splitting up of Isaiah 42 to justify inserting a non-Jew into the prophecy:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Zaman/isaiah42.htm

 

[AspiringSoul]

@manama I don't want to argue with you like before because it doesn't bring out the best in me and we'd only go round in circles.
there are contexts to even sufi islam
like you spoke of bidah but read this hadith


(1) Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman: The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me. Once I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?" He said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)." I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?" He said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?" He said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Describe those people to us." He said, "They will belong to us and speak our language" I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?" He said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief." I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state." (Book #56, Hadith #803)

The definitive proof of the first 'evil' was the loss of al Aqsa ie the first crusade.
Muslims by this point had become extremely irrelegious and materialistic. They were hell bent on conquering and looting.
it was at that point islam was revived by sufi islam (Salahuddin even met Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani when he was a boy).
However in the context it is absolutely true that sufi islam had innovations.
The prophet SAW still regarded this as 'good'
Good..but tainted.

Islam was revived and this period lasted for over 500 years however over time the sufis became more and more involved with other things that you and I can both agree were not islam. Eventually muslims were colonised.

The second evil the Prophet SAW came about as a reaction to sufi islam ie it was the rise of the wahabi movement. This was a period of islamic revivalism that gave rise to all kinds of fanaticism and ironically in response to such fanaticism, the sufi movement has gotten far worse with the bidah.
in the context it is in every sense 'evil' and it was precisely because they fought the ottomon sultanate...al aqsa was then given to jews.

What you should realise about me is, i'm def influenced by this hadith to the point where even if i do believe in many of the ideas of sufi islam...i don't FOLLOW any tariqahs or sheikhs..the Prophet SAW rightly said 'keep away from all those different sects'

 

[AspiringSoul]

They are very Christian. Those quotes are from the Christian bible in context.
Your problem is that they do not fit your Islamic (mis)understanding of Christianity.

And for the splitting up of Isaiah 42 to justify inserting a non-Jew into the prophecy:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Zaman/isaiah42.htm

you know this link you've posted
the problem with this link is, answering-islam exists along with answering-christianity
the answering-christianity team have wrongly interpreted the messianic part of Isaiah 42 as a prophecy about mohammad SAW
so really if you want to get into this im more or less well aware of what's going on. I don't agree with answering-christianity's views but i also obviously won't agree with answering-islam not when they have such despicable people like david wood, nabeel qureshi, sam shamoun etc working for them.

As for the other bit well look you're going to say that aren't you?
but i've been telling you for a while now that the trinitarian doctrine contradicts the new testament and so far no one has acknowledged me, just ignored me.

look what it says in Isaiah 42
10 Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
11 Let the wilderness and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.
12 Let them give glory to the Lord
and proclaim his praise in the islands.
13 The Lord will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.

14 “For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.
15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills
and dry up all their vegetation;
I will turn rivers into islands
and dry up the pools.
16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.
These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.
17 But those who trust in idols,
who say to images, ‘You are our gods,’
will be turned back in utter shame.

ALL of this has happened through Islam. It's like when you guys accuse muslims of violence...here look at what God says

13 The Lord will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.

look
11 Let the wilderness and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.

This=Mecca

Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.

This=Medina
Sela is medina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sela_(Saudi_Arabia)

"The Prophet Muhammad in the "Battle of the Trench" prayed to God for victory on Mount Sela'


The extra point here is in verse 10 it says
Sing to the Lord a new song,

it is seperate from verses 1-10 which were messianic ie it is a different story/time/religion.

 

[JoChris]

I gave several links about the Trinity elsewhere.
Here's a beginner's one. https://carm.org/trinity

The rest of what you typed - a faith of a Muslim has already be present to actually believe that refers in any way to Muhammad.
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/05/revisiting-isaiah-42-addendum-theology.html

And of course certain names of certain cities will be mentioned in Islamic writings as well as Old Testament. Your prophet lived in the Middle East region. That is all.

Back to topic. Sufi Muslims and Gnosticism:
You denied that Sufi's version of Islam had nothing to do with Gnosticism, dismissing it as a 2nd century Ad Christian cult.

Is Bakhsh (1072-1077 AD) considered a major Sufi leader or writer?
This sounds like pure Gnosticism. http://islam.uga.edu/marifah.html

 

[AspiringSoul]

I gave several links about the Trinity elsewhere.
Here's a beginner's one. https://carm.org/trinity

The rest of what you typed - a faith of a Muslim has already be present to actually believe that refers in any way to Muhammad.
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/05/revisiting-isaiah-42-addendum-theology.html

And of course certain names of certain cities will be mentioned in Islamic writings as well as Old Testament. Your prophet lived in the Middle East region. That is all.

Back to topic. Sufi Muslims and Gnosticism:
You denied that Sufi's version of Islam had nothing to do with Gnosticism, dismissing it as a 2nd century Ad Christian cult.

Is Bakhsh (1072-1077 AD) considered a major Sufi leader or writer?
This sounds like pure Gnosticism. http://islam.uga.edu/marifah.html

i can't be bothered reading these links tbh just opinions that is all....
but look those verses in Isaiah 42 from verse 10 onwards are about islam and that much is clear.

In the old testament, isaiah, God even chose Cyrus the Great to be HIS annointed one and to do God's work...even though Cyrus didn't believe in the jewish God (he was a zoroastrian most likely). Yet somehow to you, islam is just some religion from the devil that has nothing to do with the Abrahamic religion.
Even the jews don't have your opinion and do regard islam as a true religion..

Your problem is you only expect everyone to agree with your doctrine. I believe in the new testament but not your doctrines which i see as innovations.

ok sorry, there is a difference between the word 'gnostic' and 'gnosticism' right?
See I didn't even used to know about the sect at one point. I mentioned the term gnosis/gnostics only to get told 'we reject gnosticism it was a false sect etc' so at this point if i talk of gnosis or gnostics (or if the sufi texts do) then it isn't referring to the specific sect you're familiar with.

Basically a gnostic within the sufi context is an ARIF
the word Arif means 'knower' (refering to the mystical sense of knowing, not logical knowledge)
so that link you posted the word Marifah is connected with the word Arif, it means knowledge, again referring to the mystical knowledge and not logical knowledge.

The word Arif is used extensively in the Quran as those who 'know Allah'.


Bakhsh is not his actual name, his name was Sheikh Ali Hujweri
"--From the Persian Kashf al-mahjub--"

This particular book is easily available in english in pdf format if you want to read but it's a pretty long book.

These are some quotes from his book where the term is used

The Gnostic (arif) does not see other worldly things because
his marifat (knowledge of Allah) is total denial of others. The
denial of all other than Allah is marifat and marifat of others is
the denial of the Truth (Allah). Therefore, the Gnostic is free
from the creature and in union with the Truth. He does not
have that much heed for others that it might keep him away
from the Truth nor it is of so extreme value that it might
attract him toward itself.


One who pretends to know Allah without lowliness and fear is
not a Gnostic but an ignorant fool. The sign of Marifat
(knowledge of Allah) lies in a true desire, and a sincere desire
removes all secondary causes and severs all ties of
relationship, so that nothing remains except Allah.

Can you see how this relates to what Jesus said about the single eye?



here's the word in the quran

93 And say: "Praise be to Allah, Who will soon show you His Signs, so that ye shall know them"; and thy Lord is not unmindful of all that ye do.

(12) Waquli alhamdu lillahi sayureekum ayatihi fataAarifoonaha wama rabbuka bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona

now here's the the thing you have to appreciate, something i don't think you yet know
the mind is dominated by sense objects...the 5 senses...
we typically know things in their objective aspect through our senses
mystical knowledge is subjective and occurs when you concentrate on a single thing beyond the senses
it's a true vision of that thing.

"Gnosticism can be found in almost all religions, and as such, it can be viewed as more of an esoteric philosophy that unites people across various religions- though some people today claim to be Gnostics as a religion. For example, the ideas associated with a Gnostic Christian are fundamentally almost identical to a Buddha or Boddisatva in the Buddhist religion, Gnanis in Hinduism, an Arif in the Islamic tradition, and a “knower” in the Taoist tradition, and it is for this reason that it is believed that Gnosticsm had an influence on all of these religious philosophies as it spread between Egypt and Tibet, and likewise these other schools contributed to Gnostic doctrine." - Timothy Hogan