No regard...for the desire of women

[Lisa]

Read full chapter for context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=KJV

When Paul met with the Epicureans and the Stoics he started off on an area they had of interest.

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Paul stood where people were and addressed them with formal respect, used the "I perceive that" as well as blunt "you are..." That was diplomatic.
Paul telling them they were too superstitious was truthful.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

23 -Paul mentioned what they cared about. He did not bring up Jewish law or prophecies showing Jesus was the Messiah like he would have with the Jews. That was diplomatic.
Paul exposed they were ignorantly worshipping what they did not know and then proceeded in following verses to show them what they needed to know. That was truthful.

Paul was an incredible apologist in his ability to give the truth clearly and tactfully in exactly the right way to the group he was communicating with at the time.

I think you missed the beginning in Thessalonica where Paul was reasoning with them from the scriptures..The Jews stirred up trouble for Paul there.
2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.

Then in Athens on must also think that not only was he reasoning with the Athenians, but he reasoned with them from scripture, since that’s his custom.
16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols. 17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.

And so I would say at Mars Hill he started out with reasoning with them, but he was honest about who God was and not mincing words there.
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness [v]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men [w]by raising Him from the dead.

And that’s all I’m really talking about...God does draw the line in the sand and there is no way around that, so why should Red act like there is, by trying to find common ground? Again..is there anything common between the darkness and the light that we should find common ground?

Jude‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
​

And lastly, I must wonder that if this is what apologists are trying to do, find common ground and essentially watering down the gospel, then no wonder, people don’t know the truth and are falling away from the faith...

 

[Lisa]

Just to say (and I don’t think I need to say too much here), in my own experience, I tune out people who come off as rude, graceless and shrill. I don’t buy from anyone who treats me like a number to make up their monthly sales total.

If people don’t know that you care, they won’t care what you know (or say for that matter).

If we present Christianity, but the only thing people remember is a high handed approach and a desire to belittle their ideas, even if you “win” some kind of argument in that spirit, they will run from you and in doing so associate the taste of bad fruit with Jesus.

I.e. Classic Pyrrhic victory*

*A Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/ (About this soundlisten) PIRR-ik) is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has also taken a heavy toll that negates any true sense of achievement or damages long-term progress.

As regards correcting another Christian, might I remind you of the way scripture instructs you to do it?

Matthew 18:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Therefore @Lisa - if you take issue with the way I relate to others, I suggest you follow this pattern in the way you address it.

Paul called out Peter publicly, Peter was doing something publicly and Paul called him out on it publicly and Paul was the only one who spoke about what Peter was doing.

Galatians‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”​

‭‭

Stand up for the truth and quit trying to play both sides!!!!! You do God an injustice when you do that. You aren’t going to reason anyone into the Kingdom of Heaven without the truth. God will open their eyes to the truth but if you aren’t posting the truth, how will God open anyone’s eyes to it?

Its the truth that divides people, the light from the darkness don’t ya think. There is no easy way to share the gospel with people because like Jesus said, if they hated me they will hate you a servant is not greater than his master.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Paul called out Peter publicly, Peter was doing something publicly and Paul called him out on it publicly and Paul was the only one who spoke about what Peter was doing.

Galatians‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭​

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”​

‭‭

Stand up for the truth and quit trying to play both sides!!!!! You do God an injustice when you do that. You aren’t going to reason anyone into the Kingdom of Heaven without the truth. God will open their eyes to the truth but if you aren’t posting the truth, how will God open anyone’s eyes to it?

Its the truth that divides people, the light from the darkness don’t ya think. There is no easy way to share the gospel with people because like Jesus said, if they hated me they will hate you a servant is not greater than his master.e

Please provide me with evidence that I don’t share the Gospel, or that I “play both sides”* -

E.g, https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/avoiding-wolves.6153/

I.e. where have I overstepped the mark?

*i don’t count treating somebody with different views as a human being worthy of respect as playing both sides btw.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

P.s. @Lisa - the dispute you refer to was with reference to Peter preaching the gospel of grace to the Gentiles, then apparently backing off into legalism for fear of criticism.

As far as I can tell, I have never backed off from the straightforward gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus.

For clarity, this is my position with respect to the Gospel. I believe we add to it or take away from it at our own peril.

 

[Swiftturtle]

Too bad, i don't follow the bible.

I agree with Islam, i wouldn't be a Muslim otherwise. You just happen to be wrong about what is Islam and I can't entertain you because I have a life outside these forums.

I don't know what part of "I don't care" is hard to understand. Its like youre desperate to start shit. "Muslims vs Christians hehehe can't wait to prove them moslems wrong". I'm literally not interested nor do I care about the teachings of Christianity rather than forcing a debate, go talk to someone who cares.

Eh, you do. you’re already in a level where there are no rose colored glasses left- Islam’s own teachings go against ‘freedom for women’. Defending, and following, any religion that includes condoning a war lord, r*pe, abuse, etc. says plenty. When little doubts, or pangs of ‘wait a minute...’ happen in the back of your mind, that’s Jesus trying to reach you.

 

[Swiftturtle]

Where is the historical evidence that this ka'aba was made by Abraham? I do not remember reading about this ka'aba in the bible.

Christian viewpoint: https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/toler/abraham_kaaba.html

The response of “I don’t follow the Bible”...instead of addressing the fact that their ‘holy city’ has no record of Abraham ever even being there, but ‘it has to be bc we say so’‍. The pretzel of half truths, denials, and pretending things are absolutes when those absolutes can’t withstand scrutiny that’s required to make a religion ‘true’ is beyond baffling.

 

[Swiftturtle]

As you can see when Muslims are proved wrong they either manage to convince themselves we do it out of hatred (not love for our neighbour) or refuse to engage with us any further. [Cutting and pasting testimony clips doesn't even come close to an attempt as a defence.]

Resorting to accusations of hatred when shown the truth is exceptionally childish. Muslims: please for your own self respect's sake be prepared to actually defend your claims or stop making them!!!

On a cognitive dissonance level, I get why they initially do- it’s so engrained into their lives and it’s the common thread within their entire community and family. If it’s not true, or they even express doubt, they know it will drastically effect every part of their lives. Thats why Nabeel Qureshi has such a beautiful testimony- and he addresses how converting impacted his life briefly here:

 

[Serveto]

Please provide me with evidence that I don’t share the Gospel, or that I “play both sides”* -

E.g, https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/avoiding-wolves.6153/

I.e. where have I overstepped the mark?

*i don’t count treating somebody with different views as a human being worthy of respect as playing both sides btw.

Haven't you heard? The way you become Christ-like and thus despised by the world, especially Dar-ul-Islam (the world of Islam), is to share the gospel by means of an old-fashioned manure spreader. For even better results, it helps, as well, to put the ass back in being a reputed "ambassador" for Christ (2 Cor 5:20).

 

[manama]

Eh, you do. you’re already in a level where there are no rose colored glasses left- Islam’s own teachings go against ‘freedom for women’. Defending, and following, any religion that includes condoning a war lord, r*pe, abuse, etc. says plenty. When little doubts, or pangs of ‘wait a minute...’ happen in the back of your mind, that’s Jesus trying to reach you.

Lol

 

[Daciple]

Where on earth do you get that Red is playing both sides or not standing up for the Truth?

Where are the lies? Where has he ever said anything against the actual Gospel?

Never once have I seen Red post anything that spoke against the Gospel Truth. Quote him denying Christ as God, or that Jesus being God took on the Flesh, or that Jesus died on the Cross, or that Jesus took upon Himself the Sins of the World, or that Jesus was buried for 3 days, or that Jesus Resurrected on the 3rd day, or that Jesus Ascended into Heaven and is at the right hand of the Father, or that Salvation comes only by Grace thru Faith, or that the Blood of Jesus brings Atonement, or that to deny and reject Christ doesnt lead you to Hell, or that it is impossible to get to Heaven by Works ect ect ect.

Show me 1 quote of Red denying these things and you might have something to say, if not then you are straight up lying about him point blank period.

In fact when it comes to Theology I would say apart from Zionism and Eschatology, I probably agree with everything Red has posted, or at least everything I have read and the facts are absolutely no one will ever be saved or kept from Salvation because of Zionism or Eschatology. Red preaches the Gospel day in and day out on this site and more over he offers Grace and Understanding to EVERYONE regardless of their perspective and point of view.

You do realize that it was Jesus who sat with Sinners while it was Pharisees who condemned Him for the company He kept right?

You will not ever find Jesus berating Sinners, however Jesus did berate the Pharisees, the ones who constantly took issue with Him because He surrounded Himself with the lowest of the low and weakest of the weak. The one who showed Grace and Mercy to those who the Religious Folks cast out and looked down upon. Over and over in Scripture Jesus was "finding common ground" with those who were Lost and were Sinners.

All I can say Lisa is there is something very wrong in your Spirit, IDK what is going on in your life at the moment or recently but the way you have been treating almost everyone on here, it is clear to everyone that the problem isnt all of us, but it is you.

All Red has ever done is treat people kindly, and all I can see is that at some point you and him had a disagreement over some issue, dont know what, and from that point on you have been trying your best to tear him down.

You should Repent and look in a mirror, the only one that comes off as bad in most of your recent posts concerning others is you...

Unless you can directly quote Red denying the Gospel, then you stand before everyone as a Liar and guilty of Defamation who ought to apologize...

 

[JoChris]

I think you missed the beginning in Thessalonica where Paul was reasoning with them from the scriptures..The Jews stirred up trouble for Paul there.
2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.

Then in Athens on must also think that not only was he reasoning with the Athenians, but he reasoned with them from scripture, since that’s his custom.
16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols. 17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.

And so I would say at Mars Hill he started out with reasoning with them, but he was honest about who God was and not mincing words there.
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness [v]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men [w]by raising Him from the dead.

And that’s all I’m really talking about...God does draw the line in the sand and there is no way around that, so why should Red act like there is, by trying to find common ground? Again..is there anything common between the darkness and the light that we should find common ground?

Jude‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭​

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.​

​

And lastly, I must wonder that if this is what apologists are trying to do, find common ground and essentially watering down the gospel, then no wonder, people don’t know the truth and are falling away from the faith...

I selected that section because it is the transcript of his speech. We are given summaries in the early verses, showing he was speaking as he always did with the Jews from Acts chapter 9 [his conversion] onwards.

Paul spoke truth diplomatically, something that is exceptionally hard to do at the best of times. Despite that he was heavily persecuted by willful disbelievers just like all people who are determined to tell the truth that people refuse to hear.

The real Christians like yourself here aren't watering down their beliefs, or changing the Gospel, or denying Jesus in any way at all. The false ones reveal themselves eventually online just like in the world. We have never pretended that there are multiple ways to God, or that God will overlook sin, or any other false doctrine that fake Christians use to trick people to like them.

We all have our own way of communicating. You and I are very direct. We have decided to draw a clear line the sand and so we come under obvious Enemy fire at times. Red Sky is very gentle. He gets through to people I don't have the patience to deal with and I hammer through some people's defences in a style he wouldn't be comfortable with doing.

We all have our own part in the Body of Christ, or Army of God. There are many more types of soldiers than the ones who hold guns. Some are spies. Some are mediators. We are on the same side still, all against the same enemy seeking to make people reject Jesus.

 

[JoChris]

On a cognitive dissonance level, I get why they initially do- it’s so engrained into their lives and it’s the common thread within their entire community and family. If it’s not true, or they even express doubt, they know it will drastically effect every part of their lives. Thats why Nabeel Qureshi has such a beautiful testimony- and he addresses how converting impacted his life briefly here:

I am of the belief that if there was no death penalty commandment for apostasy that Islam would have had very few followers (if any) a few generations later.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 83:
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:

Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."​

 

[Swiftturtle]

I am of the belief that if there was no death penalty commandment for apostasy that Islam would have had very few followers (if any) a few generations later.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 83:
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:

Narrated 'Abdullah:​

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."​

Def a component. Fear, rejection, & threat of death are used as emotional prisons, whether it’s acknowledged or not. That’s why the Bible says ‘For I have not given you a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind’

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Mark Biltz was called out by Stephen Ben Noon some time ago over “Noahide Laws”. I had listened to both sides of the debate and found this response particularly incisive...

 

[Dalit]

Mark Biltz was called out by Stephen Ben Noon some time ago over “Noahide Laws”. I had listened to both sides of the debate and found this response particularly incisive...

I heard about this. I like Steven Ben Nun and The Way Biblical Fellowship because they've shown some of the dangers of Zionism. But then I may also be reacting to the toxic environment I just left not long ago where Israel was put on a pedestal and almost worshipped. Will try to watch sometime. Think it's important to try to see both sides of an issue.

 

[Lisa]

P.s. @Lisa - the dispute you refer to was with reference to Peter preaching the gospel of grace to the Gentiles, then apparently backing off into legalism for fear of criticism.

As far as I can tell, I have never backed off from the straightforward gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus.

For clarity, this is my position with respect to the Gospel. I believe we add to it or take away from it at our own peril.

View attachment 24826

I think that you constantly trying to find common ground is wrong. Where you don’t firmly say this is what then Bible says and that’s the authority in our lives. You give the impression, and apparently only to me, that other beliefs are fine, I think as a Christian there is no doubt that the Bible is the authority.
When you say watch this video or quote C.S. Lewis like that is your authority, when the Bible ought to be the authority not what C. S. Lewis thinks. You do that often enough and I start to wonder what really is your point other than to soften the word of God for others, I just don’t think it’s right.

And I think that sharing the gospel can be looked at as offensive no matter the way in which you say it. I don’t believe that I’m shrill but I’m firm in where my belief comes from and that’s the Bible. Where as I think from your posts that your belief is willy nilly, coming form this video, that person and I never really get the sense that it’s from the Bible...the Bible is just another tool for you.

 

[Lisa]

We all have our own part in the Body of Christ, or Army of God. There are many more types of soldiers than the ones who hold guns. Some are spies. Some are mediators. We are on the same side still, all against the same enemy seeking to make people reject Jesus.

No doubt about that, however if you water down scripture can you really be said to be on the same side?

What do you mean by some are spies? What do spies do in the body of Christ? Also, what do mediators do?

 

[Lisa]

Show me 1 quote of Red denying these things and you might have something to say, if not then you are straight up lying about him point blank period.

I’m not lying about him.

Red preaches the Gospel day in and day out on this site and more over he offers Grace and Understanding to EVERYONE regardless of their perspective and point of view.

That is a problem to offer grace and understanding all the time. The truth is needed more than grace, let God give the grace we give the truth.

Over and over in Scripture Jesus was "finding common ground" with those who were Lost and were Sinners.

I don’t think so. Take the Samaritan woman...where did Jesus find common ground with her? He straight up told her that she had five husbands and the man she was with now wasn’t one of them. That’s common ground? No, he straight up told her the truth and instead of being upset with it she ended up telling the world around her about Jesus.

the only one that comes off as bad in most of your recent posts concerning others is you...

Yes I understand that is probably true but I do believe that I’m in the right here whether or not that makes me look bad or not.

All I can say Lisa is there is something very wrong in your Spirit, IDK what is going on in your life at the moment or recently but the way you have been treating almost everyone on here, it is clear to everyone that the problem isnt all of us, but it is you.

Why would there have to be something wrong in my spirit for me to say that Red should stop playing both sides and pick the one side? Or at least pick one side and stick to it? I have always felt confused by his tactics here and have only just recently decided to say something about it..so it’s not a spur of the moment decision but a hard decision and a sad one as well. It doesn’t make me happy to point it out and stand firm on this, yet I feel that that is what I must do.

Unless you can directly quote Red denying the Gospel, then you stand before everyone as a Liar and guilty of Defamation who ought to apologize...

I think the person who should repent is Red for muddying the waters in the first place. I think a Christian should stand firm in the faith in that they aren’t letting people think that the gospel is just another tool but the word of God. And I always think that Red is on both sides rather than one and to me that is the problem.

 

[Vytas]

I think that you constantly trying to find common ground is wrong. Where you don’t firmly say this is what then Bible says and that’s the authority in our lives. You give the impression, and apparently only to me, that other beliefs are fine, I think as a Christian there is no doubt that the Bible is the authority.
When you say watch this video or quote C.S. Lewis like that is your authority, when the Bible ought to be the authority not what C. S. Lewis thinks. You do that often enough and I start to wonder what really is your point other than to soften the word of God for others, I just don’t think it’s right.

And I think that sharing the gospel can be looked at as offensive no matter the way in which you say it. I don’t believe that I’m shrill but I’m firm in where my belief comes from and that’s the Bible. Where as I think from your posts that your belief is willy nilly, coming form this video, that person and I never really get the sense that it’s from the Bible...the Bible is just another tool for you.

He simply isn't forcing the issue. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. (Or don't they?)
Person you argue with often is as convinced truth is on his side as you. It can be fruitful discussion, where you both learn something ,you can opt out to ignore those who you disagree with, or you can participate in "pissing contest". Do you see other options
? You can share the message without forcing people to accept it. You can entertain others povs without changing your own.

 

[Lisa]

He simply isn't forcing the issue. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. (Or don't they?)
Person you argue with often is as convinced truth is on his side as you. It can be fruitful discussion, where you both learn something ,you can opt out to ignore those who you disagree with, or you can participate in "pissing contest". Do you see other options
? You can share the message without forcing people to accept it. You can entertain others povs without changing your own.

Sure, people have the right to believe what they want to believe. However for the Christian, we ought to contend earnestly for the faith. That’s all I’m saying really. Where is his contending? He is so busy trying to find that common ground or not be offensive in that the truth is found in the Bible that it feels like his loyalty isn’t to God or the word at all and that is what offends. And that is why I say stand up for the truth! Quote the Bible in truth.

As for a pissing contest...what does contend earnestly for the faith mean to you? Is it a vague suggestion? Is it not trying to win the point?

1contend-Synonyms: battle, compete, face off, fight, race, rival, vie

1earnest-Synonyms: serious, grave, humorless, no-nonsense, po-faced [British], sedate, severe, sober, sobersided, solemn, staid, uncomic, unsmiling, weighty

We are to seriously try to win the argument for our faith...it’s not come to a common agreement where everyone wins. It’s contend earnestly for the faith...he doesn’t do that and worse makes people think that their truth is as good as God’s which is wrong.