Mark Passio Controlled Opposition?

[billy t]

On this one, people like Anwar Awlaki, Iran Hosein and recently "manyprophetsonemessage" like this talking point but it lacks any historical credibility.

The Qur'an in Surah 2:102 is not talking about a tradition of Jewish esotericism that was invented five centuries after the advent of Islam (Islam being 7th century and Kabbalah first emerging in the 13th century out of the Islamicate esoteric and philosophical context in places like Spain).
What the Qur'an is accusing the Israelites of these was more primitive superstitious magic which was more common in the ancient world.

The truth about Kabbalah is that it is a Judaized evolution of three things (Shia Islam, Sufism and Muslim Neoplatonism) common in the Muslim world between the 9th and 13th centuries. Jews further combined it with small elements of the long defunct forms of Christianity known as Gnosticism, namely specific emanationist metaphysical models.


This article is a good introduction to the matter:

The Question of Sufi Influence on the Early Kabbalah | tomblock.com

www.tomblock.com

You are assuming that written tradition is where it started. That is where you have gone wrong. Written tradition came later.

 

[billy t]

Yeah you just don't understand anything I say, speaking to a brick wall results in a better dialogue.

Explain your main points in a single post then. Otherwise I will just go to the start of the thread and read your posts one by one.

 

[Nikōn]

Allestar Crowley did a ceremony which was for the purpose of controlling the jinn called the Abramelin. Occultists all claim that this knowledge will allow them to attain immortality, to become enlightened (angels are created from light) and to have an everlasting kingdom. This is what Satan promised Adam and Eve.

Here I go again but what you write about too is incorrect.

I know of the Abramelin Working and it's aims. It aims to evoke the Mu'aqqibat, in Islamic terminology.


Here is an article on it:

Guardian angel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nikōn]

Explain your main points in a single post then. Otherwise I will just go to the start of the thread and read your posts one by one.

I am not going to waste my time and energy repeating myself.

 

[Nikōn]

You are assuming that written tradition is where it started. That is where you have gone wrong. Written tradition came later.

Stop trying to give Kabbalah credibility when it doesn't have any.

To sum: It comes from Greece (aka Platonism), via Christian and more directly, Islamic, streams of philosophy, mysticism and metaphysics. It emerged within an Islamicate environment and both incorporated Islamic ideas while also reacting to it in various ways. As it continued to spread and evolve through the work of Kabbalists like Issac Luria, it became far more closer the thing we recognize today as "Kabbalah".
Between the 13th century and the 21st century, there have been at least 4 stages in the historical evolution of this system.

If you asked the most learned Jew back 1800 years ago "what is Kabbalah?" they'd reply with a "what?".

The strongest evidence I've ever found both from academic study and reading Jewish apologists, for 'evidence' of antiquity to Kabbalah is the Chaggiah Tractate from the Babylonian Talmud but it is an extreme case of trying to suspend disbelief. It is just pure anachronism to assert antiquity to Kabbalah before the middle ages. This is pure fact.

 

[billy t]

On this one, people like Anwar Awlaki, Iran Hosein and recently "manyprophetsonemessage" like this talking point but it lacks any historical credibility.

The Qur'an in Surah 2:102 is not talking about a tradition of Jewish esotericism that was invented five centuries after the advent of Islam (Islam being 7th century and Kabbalah first emerging in the 13th century out of the Islamicate esoteric and philosophical context in places like Spain).
What the Qur'an is accusing the Israelites of these was more primitive superstitious magic which was more common in the ancient world.

The truth about Kabbalah is that it is a Judaized evolution of three things (Shia Islam, Sufism and Muslim Neoplatonism) common in the Muslim world between the 9th and 13th centuries. Jews further combined it with small elements of the long defunct forms of Christianity known as Gnosticism, namely specific emanationist metaphysical models.


This article is a good introduction to the matter:

The Question of Sufi Influence on the Early Kabbalah | tomblock.com

www.tomblock.com

I've came across studies before that say Ibn Arabi influenced the Kabbalah. I am not convinced. These studies restrict themselves to written tradition. It is the same problem that comes up in linguistics. They only focus on written tradition yet have no evidence of oral tradition. Ibn Arabi was declared an apostate by multiple scholars. He was a heretic. Ibn Arabi learned the knowledge somewhere so this idea that he influenced the Kabbalah is nonsense. The Kabbalah was around LONG before Ibn Arabi. It was only written down in that time. Moreover, only a PORTION of it was written down.

The reality is mystic Shia, Gnostics, mystic Sufis, mystic Jews etc, etc, were all drinking from the same fountain of Lucifer hence the similarities in all their ideas.

 

[billy t]

How are you so sure your approach towards dissecting one eye symbol on his webpage representing God is correct? Mind to look into his logo?
View attachment 57984

His logo is very similar to typical new world order one, with 2 branches of leaf on both sides.
View attachment 57985

This one too whose motto is "Novus ordo seclorum" "Annuit coeptis", which can be seen on dollar sign
View attachment 57986

That bracnch of leaf I don't see in your Omniscience of God or eye of providence.
View attachment 57987

You have to use a little common sense where the guy worked in the Church of satan in the past and its for sure he was in contact with symbolisms as he is preaching occultic knowledge to his followers in a "Woke" sense, still chooses to use the most commom sign of deception, the all seeing eye and keep talking about how occult has positivity in it is quite suspicious. Yesterday I watched one his live interview and he was clarifying satanism isn't about satan what public generally assumes, seemed to me what typical luciferians claim to be true. I don't find his ideology anyhow different than luciferians, just packaged in another sweet coat to attract truthers.

Can you send me a link for this interview? Thanks.

 

[Nikōn]

How are you so sure your approach towards dissecting one eye symbol on his webpage representing God is correct? Mind to look into his logo?
View attachment 57984

His logo is very similar to typical new world order one, with 2 branches of leaf on both sides.
View attachment 57985

This one too whose motto is "Novus ordo seclorum" "Annuit coeptis", which can be seen on dollar sign
View attachment 57986

That bracnch of leaf I don't see in your Omniscience of God or eye of providence.
View attachment 57987

You have to use a little common sense where the guy worked in the Church of satan in the past and its for sure he was in contact with symbolisms as he is preaching occultic knowledge to his followers in a "Woke" sense, still chooses to use the most commom sign of deception, the all seeing eye and keep talking about how occult has good side is suspicious. Yesterday I watched one his live interview and he was clarifying satanism isn't about satan what public generally assumes, seemed to me what typical luciferians claim to be true. I don't find his ideology anyhow different than luciferians, just packaged in another sweet coat to attract truthers.

'Guilt by association' I see (with the eye in the triangle).

It all makes a lot of sense actually. Except for Passio's use of it, which could be taken in both a positive sense (that God is to him "truth, freedom and love" or contrarily, that God to him represents the oppression of "truth, freedom and love" which he seeks to expose - given that he is an anarchist ideologically).
Neither matter to me because Passio doesn't matter to me. If you like him, good for you.

So how it makes sense. Freemasonry was founded predominantly by anti-Catholic Protestant Christians who were interested in a fraternal order. Like attracts like. Almost a hundred years after the first Masonic lodge opens, some Masonic lodges start incorporating the eye in the triangle symbol which had already been used in Protestant Churches in the centuries prior to the formation of Masonry.
As Freemasonry keeps developing it's mythology and general trajectory (which follows similar trends to which result in the "enlightenment era") the incorporation by American Presidents early in American history to have it on US money makes a lot of sense, seeing that (Novus ordo seclorum) following the tradition of intellectuals like Francis Bacon, they envisioned America as a "new Atlantis" or, in traditional Christian terms, they wanted to make the (at the time) very new America into the "New Jerusalem". That also lines up with the Freemason allegory of Solomon's Temple, which the New Jerusalem is an eschatological answer to (following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70AD by the Romans).

New Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is frankly, incredibly Christian in it's premise and stands true to the general anti-Catholic views in American Protestantism.
The same trend also explains the advent of Mormonism which shares "American exceptionalism" views with the American founders and American nationalists in general.

 

[billy t]

Some questions are highlighted in the description box too check that up.

I will watch the whole interview later but yeah as for the first part then the Church of Satan always make these sorts of claims. They mention how they don't really believe in Satan but believe that you can do whatever you want. This is exactly what Satan wants people to believe. 1) that he doesn't exist 2) that you can do what you want and 3) that you yourself are God! I realize Passio rejects moral relativity but yeah that is another issue.

 

[billy t]

'Guilt by association' I see (with the eye in the triangle).

It all makes a lot of sense actually. Except for Passio's use of it, which could be taken in both a positive sense (that God is to him "truth, freedom and love" or contrarily, that God to him represents the oppression of "truth, freedom and love" which he seeks to expose - given that he is an anarchist ideologically).
Neither matter to me because Passio doesn't matter to me. If you like him, good for you.

So how it makes sense. Freemasonry was founded predominantly by anti-Catholic Protestant Christians who were interested in a fraternal order. Like attracts like. Almost a hundred years after the first Masonic lodge opens, some Masonic lodges start incorporating the eye in the triangle symbol which had already been used in Protestant Churches in the centuries prior to the formation of Masonry.
As Freemasonry keeps developing it's mythology and general trajectory (which follows similar trends to which result in the "enlightenment era") the incorporation by American Presidents early in American history to have it on US money makes a lot of sense, seeing that (Novus ordo seclorum) following the tradition of intellectuals like Francis Bacon, they envisioned America as a "new Atlantis" or, in traditional Christian terms, they wanted to make the (at the time) very new America into the "New Jerusalem". That also lines up with the Freemason allegory of Solomon's Temple, which the New Jerusalem is an eschatological answer to (following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70AD by the Romans).

New Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is frankly, incredibly Christian in it's premise and stands true to the general anti-Catholic views in American Protestantism.
The same trend also explains the advent of Mormonism which shares "American exceptionalism" views with the American founders and American nationalists in general.

What is your evidence that this symbol is Christian? Even if there was evidence that Christians used it then that doesn't mean it originated with them. Some Muslims today use the crescent yet it has no origins in early Islam rather it came hundred of years later from a Muslim ruler who got the symbol from other traditions.

Symbolism is not my area of expertise but I do recall reading many times that this symbol goes back to Egyptian pharaohs and so on and represents Horus hence it goes back a lot further than you seem to think it does.

 

[Nikōn]

What is your evidence that this symbol is Christian? Even if there was evidence that Christians used it then that doesn't mean it originated with them. Some Muslims today use the crescent yet it has no origins in early Islam rather it came hundred of years later from a Muslim ruler who got the symbol from other traditions.

Symbolism is not my area of expertise but I do recall reading many times that this symbol goes back to Egyptian pharaohs and so on and represents Horus hence it goes back a lot further than you seem to think it does.

The Eye of Providence: The symbol with a secret meaning?

How has a seemingly straightforward image – an eye set within a triangle – become a lightning rod for conspiracy theorists? Matthew Wilson looks at the history of an ambiguous symbol.

www.bbc.com

Optical connections: The all-seeing eye - Optician Online

David Baker investigates the optics-related associations of the all-seeing eye, which is seen by millions of people everyday but understood by few

www.opticianonline.net

What is the all-seeing eye?

What is the all-seeing eye? What does the all-seeing eye represent? Does the all-seeing eye have anything to do with the Bible or Christianity?

www.compellingtruth.org

Eye of God (Eye of Providence) - ReligionFacts

religionfacts.com

What Does the Eye of Providence Symbolize?

The Eye of Providence is seen in various places, including the Great Seal of the United States. It has a varied history of meanings and controversies.

www.learnreligions.com

What's Up with the All Seeing Eye on the Dollar Bill?

Diego Berri: Why is the all seeing eye on the dollar bill? A long standing bit of fodder for conspiracy theorists of the American persuasion includes various imagery found on the United States’ one dollar bill, with the most infamous of graphics on said nefarious item being the so-called...

www.todayifoundout.com

It's worth also noting that it started becoming used in Masonry a decade after being used by the US government, which conversely (again) came after it's use in Christian art and architecture.

 

[billy t]

The Eye of Providence: The symbol with a secret meaning?

How has a seemingly straightforward image – an eye set within a triangle – become a lightning rod for conspiracy theorists? Matthew Wilson looks at the history of an ambiguous symbol.

www.bbc.com

Optical connections: The all-seeing eye - Optician Online

David Baker investigates the optics-related associations of the all-seeing eye, which is seen by millions of people everyday but understood by few

www.opticianonline.net

What is the all-seeing eye?

What is the all-seeing eye? What does the all-seeing eye represent? Does the all-seeing eye have anything to do with the Bible or Christianity?

www.compellingtruth.org

Eye of God (Eye of Providence) - ReligionFacts

religionfacts.com

What Does the Eye of Providence Symbolize?

The Eye of Providence is seen in various places, including the Great Seal of the United States. It has a varied history of meanings and controversies.

www.learnreligions.com

What's Up with the All Seeing Eye on the Dollar Bill?

Diego Berri: Why is the all seeing eye on the dollar bill? A long standing bit of fodder for conspiracy theorists of the American persuasion includes various imagery found on the United States’ one dollar bill, with the most infamous of graphics on said nefarious item being the so-called...

www.todayifoundout.com

It's worth also noting that it started becoming used in Masonry a decade after being used by the US government, which conversely (again) came after it's use in Christian art.

The BBC article is deceptive. It talks about the "eye of providence" and acts as if it began around 1500. Yet it also mentions the eye of Horus. Yes, the eye of providence is different in some ways from the Eye of Horus but it still has the same origins! Only difference is it incorporates the triangle as well.

It mentions how some European painters used the same symbol that the Egyptians used without knowing its true meaning. This itself is doubtful. How does the BBC know that the painters didn't know its meaning? Very naive thing to say. Typical nonsense from BBC.

 

[Nikōn]

Some Muslims today use the crescent yet it has no origins in early Islam rather it came hundred of years later from a Muslim ruler who got the symbol from other traditions.

It's good you're starting to understand the concept of appropriation however not applying the concept the correct way. The theoretical authenticity (adjacent to the birth of a religion) of a symbol on it's own is not really of relevance here.
But if one was to use an analogy of that type, possibly one could say ISIS's use of the black standard. Another could be a more relatable one of 4chan's evolution of the Pepe meme and how it was regarded a far-right symbol for a while, before being later reclaimed by the rest of the internet as a widely-used meme now.

 

[billy t]

It's good you're starting to understand the concept of appropriation however not applying the concept the correct way. The theoretical authenticity (adjacent to the birth of a religion) of a symbol on it's own is not really of relevance here.
But if one was to use an analogy of that type, possibly one could say ISIS's use of the black standard. Another could be a more relatable one of 4chan's evolution of the Pepe meme and how it was regarded a far-right symbol for a while, before being later reclaimed by the rest of the internet as a widely-used meme now.

The difference is Masons DO know what it means and their knowledge goes back to Egyptians who worshipped Osirus and Horus. Its not as if they disconnected themselves from that tradition hence it is not appropriation at all. As far as I am aware the symbol symbolizes secret knowledge and enlightenment. The thing is its NOT enlightenment.

 

[Nikōn]

The BBC article is deceptive. It talks about the "eye of providence" and acts as if it began around 1500. Yet it also mentions the eye of Horus. Yes, the eye of providence is different in some ways from the Eye of Horus but it still has the same origins! Only difference is it incorporates the triangle as well.

It mentions how some European painters used the same symbol that the Egyptians used without knowing its true meaning. This itself is doubtful. How does the BBC know that the painters didn't know its meaning? Very naive thing to say. Typical nonsense from BBC.

View attachment 57988

What do you have on the left and right of your nose, below those hairs?


You're also committing a genetic fallacy trying to overemphasize that it is a BBC article. I am still waiting for you to give a reasonable argument to the contrary or offer ANY evidence for your claims.
The 'learnreligions' article points out the alleged connections with the Eye of Horus and makes the good point that the only actual connection between the both are that they are symbols involving an eye.

 

[Nikōn]

The difference is Masons DO know what it means and their knowledge goes back to Egyptians who worshipped Osirus and Horus. Its not as if they disconnected themselves from that tradition hence it is not appropriation at all. As far as I am aware the symbol symbolizes secret knowledge and enlightenment. The thing is its NOT enlightenment.

Frankly you're a very strange person, you seem to want to very charismatically defend both Kabbalah and Freemason as legitimate, authentic, valid and antiquated. Yet just like followers of Kabbalah and Freemasonry, you cannot provide any actual evidence of this, only repeating your beliefs about them.
I get the hint that you're a wannabe Kabbalist and Mason by the sounds of it. You're way to eager for Kabbalah and Masonry to be ancient, antiquated true sources of knowledge, married with your extreme myths about what both are.

 

[billy t]

Frankly you're a very strange person, you seem to want to very charismatically defend both Kabbalah and Freemason as legitimate, authentic, valid and antiquated. Yet just like followers of Kabbalah and Freemasonry, you cannot provide any actual evidence of this, only repeating your beliefs about them.
I get the hint that you're a wannabe Kabbalist and Mason by the sounds of it. You're way to eager for Kabbalah and Masonry to be ancient, antiquated true sources of knowledge, married with your extreme myths about what both are.

Right let me get this straight. According to your post I am,

1) a strange person.
2) A wannabe kabbalist.
3) A wannabe Mason.

I am Muslim. Where did I say the Kabbalah is a true source of knowledge?

 

[Nikōn]

Where did I say the Kabbalah is a true source of knowledge?

Here you go:

The knowledge found in occultism goes back to Babylon. The Freemasons themselves say this but they attribute the magic they learn to Solomon when in reality Solomon is free of what they ascribe to him.

.....

Some of this magic is found in the Kabbalah. Kabbalah means to receive. It is similar to the arabic word qabala which means to receive. This is because it is passed on through oral tradition. What is found in the Jewish Kabbalah is only a portion of the knowledge which is passed on through oral tradition only. All occultism can pretty much be traced back to the Kabbalah and this goes back to Babylon.

These studies restrict themselves to written tradition. It is the same problem that comes up in linguistics. They only focus on written tradition yet have no evidence of oral tradition.

..............

The Kabbalah was around LONG before Ibn Arabi. It was only written down in that time. Moreover, only a PORTION of it was written down.

Trying so desperately to validate the claims of Kabbalists and Freemasons. Just coincidentally right?

I am Muslim.

No Muslims believe in a "Lucifer" so nice try. If your terminology was Iblis, I'd perhaps take you at your word but I fully distrust your self-designation as "Muslim" while regurgitating the Lucifer idea.

 

[billy t]

Here you go:





Trying so desperately to validate the claims of Kabbalists and Freemasons. Just coincidentally right?



No Muslims believe in a "Lucifer" so nice try. If your terminology was Iblis, I'd perhaps take you at your word but I fully distrust your self-designation as "Muslim" while regurgitating the Lucifer idea.

If some occultists come along and call Satan Gahofa and say we believe in Gahofa who is the enlightened one who gave us this secret knowledge then I will say that Gahofa is Satan despite the new name they gave him.

 

[Awoken2]

As Freemasonry keeps developing it's mythology and general trajectory (which follows similar trends to which result in the "enlightenment era") the incorporation by American Presidents early in American history to have it on US money makes a lot of sense, seeing that (Novus ordo seclorum) following the tradition of intellectuals like Francis Bacon, they envisioned America as a "new Atlantis" or, in traditional Christian terms, they wanted to make the (at the time) very new America into the "New Jerusalem". That also lines up with the Freemason allegory of Solomon's Temple, which the New Jerusalem is an eschatological answer to (following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70AD by the Romans).

Fascinating stuff.

I didn’t have the time to look up the words New Jerusalem when I first came across them but it was on my to do list. I first heard them here.

Would it come as any surprise to you that a music band, formed over 40 years ago by a blood ritual, who are open occultists and Crowley followers would be prophesying current events over 5 years ago?

Jaz Coleman the lead singer is on record as saying that all modern day religions have to go. He believes that all relgions are apocalyptic and "if enough people believe in it, it will happen"....or, to translate into masonic terms, all is mind.

When I first heard the above song I thought wow! These guys are great, they really get what's going on and are doing their best to inform the public. But when I started listening to the bands interviews it became quite clear to me that this was not the case.

To put it in simple terms the objective of the Freemasons is written on those Guidestones in Georgia. The reason why Freemasons don't talk about politics and religion is because they are the two things that need to be destroyed before the new age can be brought in.

Just look at the state of the people who are supposed to be the leaders of the free world....this hasn't happened accidentally, it's part of the boiling of the frog technique until we get to a point where we all turn against our governments. This is all part of the plan.

And during the chaos of these times there will then be an event which makes people question their very religion. This event will be there biggest yet and it will happen in the sky....because as Jay Coleman states that's what all these religious people are expecting anyway.

....just curious also @Nikōn Did you go to school with @AspiringSoul ? As you both appear to know your shit.