Mark Passio Controlled Opposition?

[Daze]

Cool, but do you give the slightest fuck towards the actual history and meaning of the symbol? or are you just going to desperately try and wedge it into the Dajjal prophecies.


The association of an eye with the concept of Divine Providence is found in Christianity. In late Renaissance European iconography, the Eye, surrounded by a triangle, was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity.[15] The Eye of Providence was later painted over an image of three faces in Pontormo's 1525 Supper at Emmaus.[5] Seventeenth-century depictions of the Eye sometimes show it surrounded by clouds or sunbursts.[16] The Eye of God in a triangle is still used in church architecture and Christian art to symbolize the Trinity and God's omnipresence and divine providence.

Nice language. Starting to lose your cool are we?

As i said, those who associate the 1 eye with God in anyway, shape or form are clearly on a certain path while there are 2 paths in essence. 1 towards God, and 1 away from him.

There's no reason for us to argue or to use foul language. Doesn't bother me much as i use a filter but for the sake of others...

Far as the symbol itself. My Lord is not one eyed, but we've been over this.

Peace.

 

[Nikōn]

Nice language. Starting to lose your cool are we?

As i said, those who associate the 1 eye with God in anyway, shape or form are clearly on a certain path while there are 2 paths in essence. 1 towards God, and 1 away from him.

There's no reason for us to argue or to use foul language. Doesn't bother me much as i use a filter but for the sake of others...

Far as the symbol itself. My Lord is not one eyed, but we've been over this.

Peace.

Lets try this again.

If you're right, then you can prove what I have written to be provably wrong. I challenge you, I'd love to know what you have to offer, other than erroneous hermeneutics relating to Islamic prophecy, which does not disprove the meaning of the symbol in question, and remains a fringe interpretation in the sphere of Islamic theology/eschatology.

Your tactic is pretty simple, you're a big fan of red herrings. You both try to draw too much attention to the symbol containing one eye, than to the meaning of the symbol. As if you have no idea what a symbol even is.

The Cambridge dictionary defines a symbol as follows:

"a sign, shape, or object that is used to represent something else"​

Dictionary.com defines a symbol as follows:
"something used for or regarded as representing something else; a material object representing something, often something immaterial; emblem, token, or sign.
a letter, figure, or other character or mark or a combination of letters or the like used to designate something: the algebraic symbol x; the chemical symbol Au.
(especially in semiotics) a word, phrase, image, or the like having a complex of associated meanings and perceived as having inherent value separable from that which is symbolized, as being part of that which is symbolized, and as performing its normal function of standing for or representing that which is symbolized: usually conceived as deriving its meaning chiefly from the structure in which it appears, and generally distinguished from a sign."


Then, with some added projection of my presumed mood, you use the red herring of me using the word "fuck" in my post as a subtle form of an ad hominem, in trying to chide me because I used a word you don't like, which again is a distraction tactic.

As I have already said, it symbolizes the Omnipresence and Providence of God. In it's specific socio-historical context, it comes out of the Christian religion, therefore pertaining in it's use to a relation to Christian theology, Christian culture and Christian values, broadly speaking.

It's appropriated use in Freemasonry is quite self-explanatory considering that most Freemasons are Protestant Christians.

 

[Daze]

I challenge you, I'd love to know what you have to offer,

Thanks but I'll pass.

Your tactic is pretty simple, you're a big fan of red herrings. You both try to draw too much attention to the symbol containing one eye, than to the meaning of the symbol. As if you have no idea what a symbol even is.

The one eye is all about an imperfect god, a representation of an imperfect being who will one day claim to be god.
No red herring, nothing hidden, but we all see the world from a different angle i guess.


I find your views on Abrahamic religions interesting as they largely align with my own from what I've seen.
I don't see why we need to argue over this as i doubt we'll ever agree on it.

 

[billy t]

Lets try this again.

If you're right, then you can prove what I have written to be provably wrong. I challenge you, I'd love to know what you have to offer, other than erroneous hermeneutics relating to Islamic prophecy, which does not disprove the meaning of the symbol in question, and remains a fringe interpretation in the sphere of Islamic theology/eschatology.

Your tactic is pretty simple, you're a big fan of red herrings. You both try to draw too much attention to the symbol containing one eye, than to the meaning of the symbol. As if you have no idea what a symbol even is.

The Cambridge dictionary defines a symbol as follows:

"a sign, shape, or object that is used to represent something else"​

Dictionary.com defines a symbol as follows:
"something used for or regarded as representing something else; a material object representing something, often something immaterial; emblem, token, or sign.
a letter, figure, or other character or mark or a combination of letters or the like used to designate something: the algebraic symbol x; the chemical symbol Au.
(especially in semiotics) a word, phrase, image, or the like having a complex of associated meanings and perceived as having inherent value separable from that which is symbolized, as being part of that which is symbolized, and as performing its normal function of standing for or representing that which is symbolized: usually conceived as deriving its meaning chiefly from the structure in which it appears, and generally distinguished from a sign."


Then, with some added projection of my presumed mood, you use the red herring of me using the word "fuck" in my post as a subtle form of an ad hominem, in trying to chide me because I used a word you don't like, which again is a distraction tactic.

As I have already said, it symbolizes the Omnipresence and Providence of God. In it's specific socio-historical context, it comes out of the Christian religion, therefore pertaining in it's use to a relation to Christian theology, Christian culture and Christian values, broadly speaking.

It's appropriated use in Freemasonry is quite self-explanatory considering that most Freemasons are Protestant Christians.

Who cares what occultists say it means. The symbol is associated with the occult which is based on knowledge of magic. ALL magic is evil. Stop obfuscating it. Of course they will say it means something nice.

 

[billy t]

Well that was my friend's comment, that different schools carry different approaches to the concept. I just did a search and found this verse which is simply beautiful:

God says: "He is the First and the Last, the Manifest and the Hidden, and He is the Knower of all things." (Quran 57:3)

I want to add (as I emailed my friend) there's a lot I agree with you on several subjects you've posted about over the last months. So I take back what I said about you being untrustworthy, we all have our perspectives. Also here's a link to the treatise of Ibn Taymiyyah I'm checking out if you're interested:

https://ufile.io/j86hixs4

Yeah, Ibn Taymiyyah does mention that individuals can come to know of particular affairs if they are close to God. However, if that knowledge contradicts the Qur'aan and Sunnah it is rejected. If there was such a thing as verses having apparent meanings and esoteric meanings then the whole religion could be changed due to individuals claiming they know the esoteric meanings. This idea appears to have began with the Shia sect the Batiniyyah who eventually claimed you do not have to pray because prayer is for lay people and not the "elite". There is no such concept in Islaam. This belief is only present with mystic Sufis and certain Shia sects. The early Muslims (the Salaf) rejected esotericism.

 

[billy t]

Yeah, shaykh ibn taymiyyah raheemahullah rejects this concept and he argues his points well with strong evidences. I will look into his views on the subject further. The Sufis who say there is evidence fir hidden knowledge have weak evidences. For example Abu Hurayrah said I was given 2 bags if knowledge. One of them I gave to the people and the other I would have been killed if I revealed it. This was referring to knowledge of tyranical rulers who would come and he would have been killed for revealing the details of it. I will try reply in more detail some time in the next few days.

Also the verse in Surah Hadid means Allah knows everything that is manifest and hidden. It is showing He has knowledge of everything.

 

[billy t]

Another reason Islam rejects esotericism is based on the following argument. The Prophet salAllahu alaiyhi wasaallam never mentioned it. No authentic narration establishes this.

This leaves two possibilties. Either 1) he knew but did not tell his companions which meant he hid it and Allah says "oh Messenger convey what is revealed to you from your Lord and if you do not then you have not conveyed the message. Or 2) he didn't know yet the occultists know which implies they know something to enlighten people that the Prophet salAllahu alaiyhi wasallam didn't know. Both possibilities are rejected.

The Prophet peace and blessings be upon him said there is nothing that will bring you closer to God and closer to Paradise except I have told you to do it and nothing that will distance you from God and lead you to the Hellfire except I have told you to keep away from it.

Abu Dharr al-Ghifaari said there was not a bird who flapped its wings in the sky except the Messenger told us something concerning it. Allah said "and your Lord is not forgetful". Islaam is complete and if occultic knowledge helped us Allah would have told us. True light comes from God not Lucifer who is the fake light giver. Allah says "oh mankind there has came to you our messenger conveying much if what you used to hide and a LIGHT and CLEAR book.

 

[Nikōn]

Another reason Islam rejects esotericism is based on the following argument. The Prophet salAllahu alaiyhi wasaallam never mentioned it. No authentic narration establishes this.

هُوَ الَّذي أَنزَلَ عَلَيكَ الكِتابَ مِنهُ آياتٌ مُحكَماتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الكِتابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشابِهاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذينَ في قُلوبِهِم زَيغٌ فَيَتَّبِعونَ ما تَشابَهَ مِنهُ ابتِغاءَ الفِتنَةِ وَابتِغاءَ تَأويلِهِ ۗ وَما يَعلَمُ تَأويلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرّاسِخونَ فِي العِلمِ يَقولونَ آمَنّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِن عِندِ رَبِّنا ۗ وَما يَذَّكَّرُ إِلّا أُولُو الأَلبابِ

True light comes from God not Lucifer who is the fake light giver.

Lucifer is not in the Qur'an, nor in the Sunnah, nor did the Sahaba teach of a Lucifer. In fact it's not even in the Hebrew Bible, the Hebrew Bible uses the word Helel.

Whereas, as for the meaning of this latin word (Lucifer), there is a whole Surah named after the star that the latin word takes it's name after.
That Surah, is Surah al-Tariq.

 

[Nikōn]

Who cares what occultists say it means. The symbol is associated with the occult which is based on knowledge of magic. ALL magic is evil. Stop obfuscating it. Of course they will say it means something nice.

Which occultists? Protestant Christians? or the dictionary?

A symbol which represents the omniscience of God, is not "magic". You could use it magically, as with almost anything else at your disposal, sure, but it is just a symbol which stands for the omnipresence of God within a Protestant Christian cultural context around the 15th century.

Of course they will say it means something nice.

Ok, so you're correct, then I'm sure you have a much more convincing explanation of what it means (much more convincing than it's historical and cultural context it emerged out of). Please tell me what it's "true meaning" is, now?

 

[billy t]

هُوَ الَّذي أَنزَلَ عَلَيكَ الكِتابَ مِنهُ آياتٌ مُحكَماتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الكِتابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشابِهاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذينَ في قُلوبِهِم زَيغٌ فَيَتَّبِعونَ ما تَشابَهَ مِنهُ ابتِغاءَ الفِتنَةِ وَابتِغاءَ تَأويلِهِ ۗ وَما يَعلَمُ تَأويلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرّاسِخونَ فِي العِلمِ يَقولونَ آمَنّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِن عِندِ رَبِّنا ۗ وَما يَذَّكَّرُ إِلّا أُولُو الأَلبابِ



Lucifer is not in the Qur'an, nor in the Sunnah, nor did the Sahaba teach of a Lucifer. In fact it's not even in the Hebrew Bible, the Hebrew Bible uses the word Helel.

Whereas, as for the meaning of this latin word (Lucifer), there is a whole Surah named after the star that the latin word takes it's name after.
That Surah, is Surah al-Tariq.

When you read the writings of the occultists it is clear that Lucifer refers to Satan. Of course they will say it refers to someone else.

The knowledge found in occultism goes back to Babylon. The Freemasons themselves say this but they attribute the magic they learn to Solomon when in reality Solomon is free of what they ascribe to him.

Allah explains this in Surah al-Baqarah.

"And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Hārūt and Mārūt. But they [i.e., the two angels] do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]."1 And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah. And they [i.e., people] learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But they [i.e., the Children of Israel] certainly knew that whoever purchased it [i.e., magic] would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew".

Allah says "that which they sold themselves" meaning those who practice magic have to sell their souls.

The Salaf mention there are two types of magic. That which came from the devils and that which came from Harut and Marut which was a test for the people. Some of this magic is found in the Kabbalah. Kabbalah means to receive. It is similar to the arabic word qabala which means to receive. This is because it is passed on through oral tradition. What is found in the Jewish Kabbalah is only a portion of the knowledge which is passed on through oral tradition only. All occultism can pretty much be traced back to the Kabbalah and this goes back to Babylon.

Some people practiced this knowledge in the time of Solomon. He gathered their books and buried them under his temple. Later on the devils came to mankind and told them to dig them up and said that this is what Solomon used to gain control over the jinn. Allestar Crowley did a ceremony which was for the purpose of controlling the jinn called the Abramelin. Occultists all claim that this knowledge will allow them to attain immortality, to become enlightened (angels are created from light) and to have an everlasting kingdom. This is what Satan promised Adam and Eve.

Allah says, Then Satan whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said: "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals." (Al-A'raf 7:20) and Then Satan whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said: "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals." (Al-A'raf 7:20)

These verses show that the occult are making the same promises today as Satan made when he deceived Adam. Satan also said according to the Qur'aan "I am to you a sincere advisor".

 

[billy t]

Which occultists? Protestant Christians? or the dictionary?

A symbol which represents the omniscience of God, is not "magic". You could use it magically, as with almost anything else at your disposal, sure, but it is just a symbol which stands for the omnipresence of God within a Protestant Christian cultural context around the 15th century.



Ok, so you're correct, then I'm sure you have a much more convincing explanation of what it means (much more convincing than it's historical and cultural context it emerged out of). Please tell me what it's "true meaning" is, now?

I don't care what it means nor do I care what Hindu statues mean. All of it is idolatry. Such symbols should be erased and any statues of Horus and the like should be smashed. Those who practice magic should be executed (under Islamic government).

 

[billy t]

Which occultists? Protestant Christians? or the dictionary?

A symbol which represents the omniscience of God, is not "magic". You could use it magically, as with almost anything else at your disposal, sure, but it is just a symbol which stands for the omnipresence of God within a Protestant Christian cultural context around the 15th century.



Ok, so you're correct, then I'm sure you have a much more convincing explanation of what it means (much more convincing than it's historical and cultural context it emerged out of). Please tell me what it's "true meaning" is, now?

What God? The God of the occultists? Lucifer?

 

[billy t]

هُوَ الَّذي أَنزَلَ عَلَيكَ الكِتابَ مِنهُ آياتٌ مُحكَماتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الكِتابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشابِهاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذينَ في قُلوبِهِم زَيغٌ فَيَتَّبِعونَ ما تَشابَهَ مِنهُ ابتِغاءَ الفِتنَةِ وَابتِغاءَ تَأويلِهِ ۗ وَما يَعلَمُ تَأويلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرّاسِخونَ فِي العِلمِ يَقولونَ آمَنّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِن عِندِ رَبِّنا ۗ وَما يَذَّكَّرُ إِلّا أُولُو الأَلبابِ



Lucifer is not in the Qur'an, nor in the Sunnah, nor did the Sahaba teach of a Lucifer. In fact it's not even in the Hebrew Bible, the Hebrew Bible uses the word Helel.

Whereas, as for the meaning of this latin word (Lucifer), there is a whole Surah named after the star that the latin word takes it's name after.
That Surah, is Surah al-Tariq.

As for your claim about Surah al-Tariq then yeah, I have never heard this doubt but have heard many similar claims that always turn out to be bogus. As I have said on here many times especially in regard to the idiot who started "what do Muslims really believe? thread" that you can basically use etymology and numerology to prove anything.

Orthodox Muslims and Christians essentially agree on the basic premise that occultism, new age spirituality and magic are evil.

What I want to know is WHERE does this knowledge come from? WHO revealed it? Your one eyed God?

 

[Nikōn]

What God? The God of the occultists? Lucifer?

According to the religion it emerged out of (Christianity), the God of Abraham.

 

[billy t]

According to the religion it emerged out of (Christianity), the God of Abraham.

I have read some of the writings of H P Blavatsky and her student Annie Bessant. Are you familiar with their writings? You are basically saying exactly what they say. Theosophists claim that all religions have a portion of the truth but the complete truth can only be found by learning occultic knowledge which has came from various entities that occultists come into contact with. All occultists have stories of coming into contact with certain entities.

 

[Nikōn]

As for your claim about Surah al-Tariq then yeah, I have never heard this doubt but have heard many similar claims that always turn out to be bogus. As I have said on here many times especially in regard to the idiot who started "what do Muslims really believe? thread" that you can basically use etymology and numerology to prove anything.

What does numerology have to do with anything?

وَالسَّماءِ وَالطّارِقِ
Refers to Venus.

Ibn Kathir writes in his tafsir of that Surah:

Qatadah and others have said, "The star has been named Tariq because it is only seen at night and it is hidden during the day.''
His view is supported by what has been mentioned in the authentic Hadith that prohibits a man to come to his family Taruq. This means that he comes to them unexpectedly at nighttime.
Concerning Allah's statement, الثَّاقِبُ Ath-Thaqib. Ibn Abbas said, "The illuminating.''
Ikrimah said, "It is illuminating and it burns the Shaytan''

The irony here being that you are saying that Tariq IS Shaytan, whereas Ibn Kathir says it BURNS the Shaytan.


Anyway, in terms of Helel in the Hebrew Bible (in the book of Isaiah) and the later use of the Latin term (Lucifer) in Catholicism, logically as Catholic liturgy used to be in Latin and they would read translations of the Bible in Latin. The word Lucifer would be used.
Objectively the word means "the morning star", as Tariq means "the shining one". It's known by many names.
The ancients used to believe it was a star but it's actually a planet which happens to be incredibly bright.
It was, like all the other planets, a subject to which people would make deities in the ancient times. Astrotheology was a big thing in polytheistic religions. One such deity associated with Venus was Ishtar, who is said to be related to Asherah and al-Lat, worshipped as the wife of YHWH/Allah.


I think anyway, that it says a hell of a lot about you, if you are to be using the exclusively Christian latin word "Lucifer" rather than the Islamic Iblis to refer to the Shaytan. You can do what you like but it shows me you're clearly not nearly as Muslim as you think you are.

 

[Nikōn]

I have read some of the writings of H P Blavatsky and her student Annie Bessant. Are you familiar with their writings? You are basically saying exactly what they say. Theosophists claim that all religions have a portion of the truth but the complete truth can only be found by learning occultic knowledge which has came from various entities that occultists come into contact with. All occultists have stories of coming into contact with certain entities.

Did I say that? would you care to quote where I supposedly said this? thank you

 

[billy t]

Did I say that? would you care to quote where I supposedly said this? thank you

This is what I understand from your comments.

Occultism is not bad it depends how it is used.

Occultic knowledge comes from God.

Occultic knowledge is "hidden". Correct?

 

[Nikōn]

Allah explains this in Surah al-Baqarah.

"And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Hārūt and Mārūt. But they [i.e., the two angels] do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]."And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah. And they [i.e., people] learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But they [i.e., the Children of Israel] certainly knew that whoever purchased it [i.e., magic] would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew".

Allah says "that which they sold themselves" meaning those who practice magic have to sell their souls.

The Salaf mention there are two types of magic. That which came from the devils and that which came from Harut and Marut which was a test for the people. Some of this magic is found in the Kabbalah. Kabbalah means to receive. It is similar to the arabic word qabala which means to receive. This is because it is passed on through oral tradition. What is found in the Jewish Kabbalah is only a portion of the knowledge which is passed on through oral tradition only. All occultism can pretty much be traced back to the Kabbalah and this goes back to Babylon.

On this one, people like Anwar Awlaki, Iran Hosein and recently "manyprophetsonemessage" like this talking point but it lacks any historical credibility.

The Qur'an in Surah 2:102 is not talking about a tradition of Jewish esotericism that was invented five centuries after the advent of Islam (Islam being 7th century and Kabbalah first emerging in the 13th century out of the Islamicate esoteric and philosophical context in places like Spain).
What the Qur'an is accusing the Israelites of these was more primitive superstitious magic which was more common in the ancient world.

The truth about Kabbalah is that it is a Judaized evolution of three things (Shia Islam, Sufism and Muslim Neoplatonism) common in the Muslim world between the 9th and 13th centuries. Jews further combined it with small elements of the long defunct forms of Christianity known as Gnosticism, namely specific emanationist metaphysical models.


This article is a good introduction to the matter:

The Question of Sufi Influence on the Early Kabbalah | tomblock.com

www.tomblock.com

 

[Nikōn]

This is what I understand from your comments.

Occultism is not bad it depends how it is used.

Occultic knowledge comes from God.

Occultic knowledge is "hidden". Correct?

Yeah you just don't understand anything I say, speaking to a brick wall results in a better dialogue.