How Do Muslims/ Cults Answer Revelation 22:18-19

[JoChris]

@JoChris but the fact is Lord =adoni and not Adonai and you have to acknowledge that rather than deceive yourself with a silly argument about how Jesus is The father lolll seriously
And your antibiblical doctrine is more like saying 1+1+1=1

It's just a sad little trick you do there

You are a serious Muslim. Denial of the Trinity is a core doctrine of Islam. Of course you cannot - or will not- see it.

If you suddenly understood what Christians were saying about the Trinity your faith would be skating on very thin ice. I know that is scary for Muslims. The personal consequences and fear associated with being an apostate are significant for many of you.

 

[grateful servant]

You are a serious Muslim. Denial of the Trinity is a core doctrine of Islam. Of course you cannot - or will not- see it.

If you suddenly understood what Christians were saying about the Trinity your faith would be skating on very thin ice. I know that is scary for Muslims. The personal consequences and fear associated with being an apostate are significant for many of you.

Muslims who are serious and sincere in their faith, are guided by the Creator - Almighty God. We have a direct line to Him, the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. We could never imagine leaving it for anything because we have tasted the sweetness of faith, not because we are afraid of being an apostate, smh. You really have no clue about Islam and what it means to be a Muslim devoted to Almighty God and you really sound like a dolt when you say these things.

Almighty God - the One who created you and me and all that exists - the one who will raise us all for Judgement Day - He will not ask Muslims about Revelation or anything else in the Bible, rather He will ask you about the Quran and why you denied it. I guarantee you that.

 

[JoChris]

From a mainstream news story:
In many Muslim-majority countries, renouncing Islam is a crime punishable by death. But even in the liberal West, some ex-Muslims continue to fear leaving their faith. Although reformists point to the Qur’anic ruling,”there is no compulsion in religion,” they hide their disbelief or risk being ostracized by their families and the wider ummah (community) of believers. In extreme cases they believe their status as “apostates of the faith” puts them in danger. Simon Cottee, a senior lecturer in criminology at Kent University, England., interviewed 35 former Muslims in Britain and Canada as part of the first major sociological study of ex-Muslims in the west. He based this piece on fieldwork in Canada.

http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/for-muslim-apostates-giving-up-their-faith-can-be-terrifying-dangerous-and-alienating

Simple logic: a Muslim who believes in the Trinity is an apostate.

 

[grateful servant]

A Muslim who believes in the Trinity is not just an apostate - he is one who has not tasted the sweetness of faith - God guides whom He wills.

 

[AspiringSoul]

You are a serious Muslim. Denial of the Trinity is a core doctrine of Islam. Of course you cannot - or will not- see it.

If you suddenly understood what Christians were saying about the Trinity your faith would be skating on very thin ice. I know that is scary for Muslims. The personal consequences and fear associated with being an apostate are significant for many of you.

1)
Your trinitarian doctrine states that the Father, Son and Holy spirit are 3 DISTINCT/SEPERATE PERSONs

HOWEVER it also states that they are equal in Godhead

2) soooo much of the new testament made it clear that the trinitarian doctrine is false. In Revelation "The Son" is openly and plainly referring to the Father as "my god"
Jesus said "My Father and your Father, my God and your God.

3) Psalm 110, Adoni=the messiah Jesus.
So what have you done? you've covered your tracks here by claiming 'the Son is also the Father, they are exactly the same, so Jesus is also Adonai.
in doing so, you've basically contradicted the trinitarian doctrine and the bible itself openly.
so you are a law unto yourself. You create your theological arguments with little regard to anything.

4) challenged by the truth of islam (i mean monothiesm is simple) you've always resorted to attacking islam from all angles.

 

[AspiringSoul]

A Muslim who believes in the Trinity is not just an apostate - he is one who has not tasted the sweetness of faith - God guides whom He wills.

I believe in a trinity of Hahut, Lahut and Jabarut as the 3 levels of God's manifestations
The Essence, the Kalam and Causation.

Bismillah
IrRahman
IrRaheem

the Quran alludes to the authentic truth behind the trinity in a clearly monothiestic manner as it ought to be..and it does this in every chapter of the Quran except 1.

However it rejects the christian doctrine and their 'use' of terminology because they've done it so poorly.

 

[JoChris]

1)
Your trinitarian doctrine states that the Father, Son and Holy spirit are 3 DISTINCT/SEPERATE PERSONs

HOWEVER it also states that they are equal in Godhead

2) soooo much of the new testament made it clear that the trinitarian doctrine is false. In Revelation "The Son" is openly and plainly referring to the Father as "my god"
Jesus said "My Father and your Father, my God and your God.

3) Psalm 110, Adoni=the messiah Jesus.
So what have you done? you've covered your tracks here by claiming 'the Son is also the Father, they are exactly the same, so Jesus is also Adonai.
in doing so, you've basically contradicted the trinitarian doctrine and the bible itself openly.
so you are a law unto yourself. You create your theological arguments with little regard to anything.

4) challenged by the truth of islam (i mean monothiesm is simple) you've always resorted to attacking islam from all angles.

Mohammed did not understand the Trinity. You - a follower of Islam - are proving you don't either.

The doctrine of the Trinity was also discussed in detail in early Christian writings, the term wasn't created until later.

From 2nd century writer Athenagorous [spacing and highlighting added]:

That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being—I have sufficiently demonstrated.

[I say “His Logos”], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son.

But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him727 were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (νοῦς καὶ λόγος) of the Father is the Son of God.

But if, in your surpassing intelligence,728 it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [νοῦς], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [λογικός]); but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter.

The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. “The Lord,” it says, “made me, the beginning of His ways to His works.”729 The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,730 and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers,731 whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and appointed 134to their several posts by His Logos, to occupy themselves about the elements, and the heavens, and the world, and the things in it, and the goodly ordering of them all.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.v.ii.x.html


And anyway you have answered the question I asked at the beginning - Muslims can't answer Revelations 22:18-19.

I would have liked to have seen some responses from other religious offshoots of Christianity, but on this particular forum it doesn't appear that there are any contributors that fit in that category.

 

[DesertRose]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/broken_promise_in_revelation22.htm
I looked it up fer ya......there ya go.

 

[JoChris]

Claims of corruption via using different versions of bible is not a valid defense.

The King James Version written in 1611. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version
NIV only written in the 1970s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_International_Version

 

[DesertRose]

Unbelievable!

 

[AspiringSoul]

Mohammed did not understand the Trinity. You - a follower of Islam - are proving you don't either.

The doctrine of the Trinity was also discussed in detail in early Christian writings, the term wasn't created until later.

From 2nd century writer Athenagorous [spacing and highlighting added]:

That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being—I have sufficiently demonstrated.

[I say “His Logos”], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son.

But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him727 were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (νοῦς καὶ λόγος) of the Father is the Son of God.

But if, in your surpassing intelligence,728 it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [νοῦς], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [λογικός]); but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter.

The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. “The Lord,” it says, “made me, the beginning of His ways to His works.”729 The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,730 and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers,731 whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and appointed 134to their several posts by His Logos, to occupy themselves about the elements, and the heavens, and the world, and the things in it, and the goodly ordering of them all.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.v.ii.x.html


And anyway you have answered the question I asked at the beginning - Muslims can't answer Revelations 22:18-19.

I would have liked to have seen some responses from other religious offshoots of Christianity, but on this particular forum it doesn't appear that there are any contributors that fit in that category.

Actually I answered you on Revelation 22 pretty clearly, i don't even need to repeat myself.
it became very clear "The Son" throughout Revelation, is not God...we've covered this.

also your beliefs are not consistent
there are too many instances where Jesus/The son refer to the Father as 'my God'

so when you encounter that and then say 'the son is ONE with the Father'
it is either a contradiction or it has an alternative meaning
the alternative meaning you present=the trinitarian doctrine that asserts the Son is equal with the Father..and again this view is contradicted by scripture.

My view however is that this 'One' term isn't literally meaning they are 'the same thing' it means they are One in perception/consciousness as Jesus himself referred to the SINGLE EYE teaching and furthermore, he also said
"I am in the Father and the Father is in me"
"I am in you and you are in me"
these are not literal but mystical statements.

John 17:21
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@JoChris what you referred to there in your quotes, were examples of God's Immanence through the Logos.

Sharing this with me, as if i don't understand this theme is rather stupid.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@JoChris please take some time to read this if you want to understand where im coming from when i refer to 'the mystical'
https://www.goldensufi.org/book_toc_chap_sufism.html

basically the belief of God as LOVE, the Lover and the beloved
is the real essence of sufi marifah/gnosis and yet, this is basically Christianity in essence.

this is the actual mystical truth in sikhism and hinduism too

You are soo hung up in differences you don't even realise all humans are the same, our metaphysics are the same.
people come to the similar truths but express them differently.

I'm not one of those who likes to compare religions, yet Christians do it with islam all the time.

When a person compares one particular teaching of a prophet with the teaching of another prophet he also makes a great mistake, because the teachings of the prophets have not always been of the same kind. The teaching is like the composition of a composer who writes music in all the different keys and who puts the highest note and the lowest note and all the notes of different octaves in his music.


The teachings of the prophets are nothing but the answer to the demands of individual and collective souls. Sometimes a childlike soul comes and asks, and an answer is given appropriate to his understanding. And an old soul comes and asks and he is given an answer suited to his evolution. When two teachings are brought together, a teaching which Krishna gave to a child and a teaching which Buddha gave to an old soul, it is not doing justice to compare. It is easy to say, "I do not like the music of Wagner, I simply hate it." But I should think it would be better to become Wagner first and then to hate it. To weigh, to measure, to examine, or to pronounce an opinion on a great personality, one must rise to that development first; otherwise the best thing is a respectful attitude. Respect in any form is the way of the wise.

 

[grateful servant]

I believe in a trinity of Hahut, Lahut and Jabarut as the 3 levels of God's manifestations
The Essence, the Kalam and Causation.

Bismillah
IrRahman
IrRaheem

the Quran alludes to the authentic truth behind the trinity in a clearly monothiestic manner as it ought to be..and it does this in every chapter of the Quran except 1.

However it rejects the christian doctrine and their 'use' of terminology because they've done it so poorly.

That's because you are sufi. Im talking about Muslims who follow the guidance of Muhammad, not the way of a sufi saint.

 

[JoChris]

@JoChris please take some time to read this if you want to understand where im coming from when i refer to 'the mystical'
https://www.goldensufi.org/book_toc_chap_sufism.html

basically the belief of God as LOVE, the Lover and the beloved
is the real essence of sufi marifah/gnosis and yet, this is basically Christianity in essence.

this is the actual mystical truth in sikhism and hinduism too

You are soo hung up in differences you don't even realise all humans are the same, our metaphysics are the same.
people come to the similar truths but express them differently.

I'm not one of those who likes to compare religions, yet Christians do it with islam all the time.

When a person compares one particular teaching of a prophet with the teaching of another prophet he also makes a great mistake, because the teachings of the prophets have not always been of the same kind. The teaching is like the composition of a composer who writes music in all the different keys and who puts the highest note and the lowest note and all the notes of different octaves in his music.


The teachings of the prophets are nothing but the answer to the demands of individual and collective souls. Sometimes a childlike soul comes and asks, and an answer is given appropriate to his understanding. And an old soul comes and asks and he is given an answer suited to his evolution. When two teachings are brought together, a teaching which Krishna gave to a child and a teaching which Buddha gave to an old soul, it is not doing justice to compare. It is easy to say, "I do not like the music of Wagner, I simply hate it." But I should think it would be better to become Wagner first and then to hate it. To weigh, to measure, to examine, or to pronounce an opinion on a great personality, one must rise to that development first; otherwise the best thing is a respectful attitude. Respect in any form is the way of the wise.

All people compare other religions with their own faith. We all try to make sense of the world in our own way. Even atheists do that via Evolution etc.

I read that chapter since you have consistently shown you have sincerely considered what people type to you.
I felt like I was reading psychoanalysis journals all over again. I cringed at every other line. I saw mysticism, gnosticism and the "in love with God" writings of medieval Catholic nuns and mystics everywhere.
No admission of sins. No need for a Saviour. No need for repentance. Just go deep into your inner being until you find "God" and remain in religious ectasy via Oneness with God.

I do not know how (your form of?) Sufism could ever be compatible with either biblical Christianity or mainstream Islam.

 

[manama]

If you suddenly understood what Christians were saying about the Trinity your faith would be skating on very thin ice.

Thats the problem, Christians can't even explain it to us because they themselves don't know what they are talking about.