Hell & The Odds of an Afterlife

Tidal

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Topic title- Hell & The Odds of an Afterlife
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Well, scientists estimate there are thousands of intelligent alien civilisations "out there", and Jesus said-
"I know where I came from and where I am going, but you have no idea where I come from or where I am going....
you are of this world, I am not of this world...
though you do not believe me, believe the miracles.." (John 8:14/ 8:23/10:38/Matt 13:35)


So I'd say the odds of him being something special are pretty good, right Kid?

"Right"
 

shankara

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I mentioned the problem with this earlier. You hold to a belief that you contend has the moral high ground so I would expect the outcomes of this belief to be immeasurably higher in its ways than the other beliefs you judge yet they are much of the same. This belief you hold to is supposed to be so much more human friendly and should be able to fully transcend consequence for actions yet such beliefs likewise teach a form of punishment or consequence for ones actions in this life even though less severe. One could legitimately argue that such an outcome of rebirth for failing to arrive at a spiritual level of consciousness is anti human and even a lesser evil, especially if its likely that one could spend thousands and thousands of years getting recycled in a plane of existence that has a substantial history of its own woes and despairs.

If I was an atheist or skpetic of any faith and heard the Buddhist way I may contend that such a belief is not even really any better than Christianity and is even a lesser evil, because it still judges and punishes based off of actions. I could tell a Buddhist his or her idea that their belief holds the moral highground over Christianity is an illusion, because people still get punished for not meeting a certain criteria of spirituality. You could argue that its an even greater evil in the sense that its hypocritical and sugarcoats its dealings with human beings in the afterlife to seem justified when really its the same concept of punishment. I could argue that holds to the idea of divine punishment for this life is not a higher way, but is much in the same as Christianity despite the Bible promising more severe chastisement than being reborn into the woes and despairs of the world.

So now your justifying my punishment and saying I am getting what I deserve in this life? Even though what I did in my last life is hidden from me and I cannot even review the charges against me.... Its no wonder so many people get recycled. Not only is this law hidden from them, but they cant see their cases brought against them either...
Well not remembering past lives has various purposes, such as not being overwhelmed by the trauma of your past experiences, at least until you are ready to be. Of course not remembering past lives in not a default, some people do have memories of their past lives. But if you have created the Karma not to remember them then you won't remember, at least without specifically working on developing such a memory. You may even have created the Karma not to understand Karma, that is a result of your past actions as well. In fact if we learn to observe our lives, we will comprehend the Karmic lessons we are learning, at least enough to make some progress, and that is really all that matters.

Yes, the world is full of suffering, that doesn't mean that we aren't attached to it and willing to renounce our self-realization for fleeting pleasures. While we still have such an attitude, we aren't really seeking our freedom. You say " despite the Bible promising more severe chastisement than being reborn into the woes and despairs of the world", it isn't a "more severe chastisement", it is a situation of utter hopelessness in which the person has lost all chance of any kind of happiness forever.

Its as I said earlier as well depending on where you come from and what time you come from the idea of being reborn into this world could be viewed as a crushing blow to the hearer of such things. Imagine being born with birth defects from depleted uranium. Imagine being born with no ligaments. Imagine living in a soviet gulag most of your life. Telling such people they will be reborn into this world would scare the pants off of them, yet you would suggest Buddhism is the moral high ground and superior in its ways. These people are completely oblivious and keep getting punished for things they arent even being made aware of so they cant even work to correct themselves.... You would suggest that they are deserving of such a life. Now if I was an atheist or agnostic I could apply the same standard you use to judge Christianity and apply it to your own belief and come away with the same conclusion. I wouldn't want to follow the ways of Buddha if such things are true(some atheist may reason). Im essentially being punished over and over again for being a slave to this material world and my ego. I could even try my damndest to be a Buddha and still fail in many lives is what you are telling me.
Yeah, there are rebirths which are full of darkness and suffering. That's not to say that the persons who undergo them are "evil", it just means that they need to undergo that situation for some reason. A person born in a situation of suffering is not equivalent to a person who is "bad", "faulty", "defective", it just means that such a person needs (or even wants) to go through that suffering for some reason. We will all have some painful rebirths, that's just the way things are, and a few decades of pain doesn't even begin to compare to the notion of an eternity of suffering.

You say "I could even try my damndest to be a Buddha and still fail in many lives", well so long as your striving was sincere you would make some progress. According to stories of Buddha He took some millions of years to reach enlightenment, He was even born in hell realms in the past. Nonetheless, all that time is a grain of sand compared to the mountain of "eternity".

Actually the Lama I took refuge in spent twenty years in a Chinese labor camp, practicing Buddhism in secret, and he doesn't complain about Karma being unfair.
 

Lyfe

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If I was an atheist or agnostic I wouldnt even attempt to become a Buddha given what Buddhism teaches and what you are telling me. I would also consider the means to be freed from this world a hopeless and pointless endeavor. If it took Buddha millions of years what hope do any of us have? Its anti human and such a path should be shamed and rejected by people who decry how deities and religions arent sympathetic enough to the human condition. In fact the Bible teaches that if you wanted to right here and right now you could be accepted and loved by God and given eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. You could have that promise and guarantee right now if you truly wanted it.... God would even strengthen and change you supernaturally to live such a life by the fruit of the spirit. I wouldnt even consider wasting my time trying to be a Buddha. Such a doctrine is anti human.
 

shankara

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If I was an atheist or agnostic I wouldnt even attempt to become a Buddha given what Buddhism teaches and what you are telling me. I would also consider the means to be freed from this world a hopeless and pointless endeavor. If it took Buddha millions of years what hope do any of us have? Its anti human and such a path should be shamed and rejected by people who decry how deities and religions arent sympathetic enough to the human condition. In fact the Bible teaches that if you wanted to right here and right now you could be accepted and loved by God and given eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. You could have that promise and guarantee right now if you truly wanted it.... God would even strengthen and change you supernaturally to live such a life by the fruit of the spirit. I wouldnt even consider wasting my time trying to be a Buddha. Such a doctrine is anti human.
Well the story about it taking Buddha a million years or more to gain Enlightenment is just to show how much we should have patience. It's said that with the Vajrayana we can gain Enlightenment in one life, then again perhaps that's just a story too. The point is that nobody is ever in a situation where they have no chance of making spiritual progress, there are no endless hells, and no punishments for having incorrect beliefs as such. I honestly don't comprehend how you can say in one breath that your deity is loving and merciful while he condemns people without any hope of redemption merely for believing the "wrong" thing (not even because of their actions).

As to the Buddhist view on hell, there is a story about Buddha being born in a hell realm. He had to push a cart up a boiling mountain together with another person. Both of them would be beaten by the demons, faint away for a little while and then come back again to the same situation. But one day Buddha felt compassion for the other person who had to push the cart, so he told the demons "let me push the cart alone, and spare him". The demons were enraged and beat him, worse than they had ever beaten him before. Except this time, he didn't wake up again in the hell realm, but was reborn in better circumstances.

Which is to say that to a Buddhist, hell realms are kind of meaningless. A person in a heavenly realms (the "Deva" realm) without compassion is in more suffering than someone born in a hell realm but possessing compassion. Heavens and hells are ultimately the creation of our own minds, if we develop Bodhicitta we transcend both.
 

Aero

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Hell might simply be a state of mind.

Either way, the idea of eternal torment doesn't really frighten me. Basically my thoughts are that without a body the level of suffering in hell would be negligible. Now sure I get that there are subtler forms of suffering, but just not having to eat, sleep, maintain a body really lessens the load so to speak.
 

Lyfe

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I honestly don't comprehend how you can say in one breath that your deity is loving and merciful while he condemns people without any hope of redemption merely for believing the "wrong" thing (not even because of their actions).
I am merely judging your beliefs by the same standards that you judge mine, but now being given greater clarity one could even make arguments that buddism is far less sympathetic to humans. You are the one that has been judging Christianity yet your beliefs are guilty of possessing the very same anti human concepts that you like to point out in other beliefs. You rail on the Bible yet there is no sympathy for the average person in your beliefs. There is only consequences for our actions(being reincarnated into this plane of ego, striving, pain, loss, and despair) for failing to repent and behave more spiritual(even tho we are slaves to our ego).

Whoever dictated these laws of your beliefs not merciful and their expectations of attaining Buddha status and ascending are immensely unrealistic. It took Buddha a million years and how many lives? There is no hope for the average person to ever find the sort of peace and freedom from this world they are looking for. Your beliefs deserve just as much and the same kind of critique from any non believer.
 

shankara

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I am merely judging your beliefs by the same standards that you judge mine, but now being given greater clarity one could even make arguments that buddism is far less sympathetic to humans. You are the one that has been judging Christianity yet your beliefs are guilty of possessing the very same anti human concepts that you like to point out in other beliefs. You rail on the Bible yet there is no sympathy for the average person in your beliefs. There is only consequences for our actions(being reincarnated into this plane of ego, striving, pain, loss, and despair) for failing to repent and behave more spiritual(even tho we are slaves to our ego).

Whoever dictated these laws of your beliefs not merciful and their expectations of attaining Buddha status and ascending are immensely unrealistic. It took Buddha a million years and how many lives? There is no hope for the average person to ever find the sort of peace and freedom from this world they are looking for. Your beliefs deserve just as much and the same kind of critique from any non believer.
No, you are not judging by the same standards. As I have made abundantly clear, any person, even a deeply flawed person, who makes any kind of spiritual efforts within any religion, makes progress towards Enlightenment. In a way the amount of time it takes to arrive at complete and full Enlightenment is meaningless, though as I said the Vajrayana says it can be attained in one life, which I don't think is an empty promise. The point I'm trying to make is, in Buddhism (and Hinduism) there is always hope, nobody is definitely condemned even to the mix of happiness and unhappiness of the human realm, never mind to some hell realm where there is only suffering.

Perhaps you consider it "human" to require a guarantee of total salvation and eternal happiness in one life. I don't need those kind of assurances, if it takes work then this is fine, after all there is a kind of pleasure in work. Perhaps you also consider it "human" to believe that those of other creeds are all doomed forever. Well, think what you like, others can judge in whose beliefs there is the greater cruelty. In any case, I believe that if you are sincere you will make progress, but I don't think your attitude towards me is that...
 

Lyfe

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...and yet here we are born in this realm again after how many lives and thousands of years? How many lives have you lived and yet have you truly made any progress into being freed from this world?

Its like I said such a system is not sympathetic
 

Todd

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...and yet here we are born in this realm again after how many lives and thousands of years? How many lives have you lived and yet have you truly made any progress into being freed from this world?

Its like I said such a system is not sympathetic
Because of course eternal damnation for those who don't understand the gospel of Jesus Christ is so sympathetic...
 

Lyfe

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Because of course eternal damnation for those who don't understand the gospel of Jesus Christ is so sympathetic...
I never said it was sympathetic. I merely pointed out that this persons beliefs according to certain standards can also be considered not sympathetic. They are the ones judging the Bible from a belief that presupposes some kind of moral highground and i was pointing out that this moral highground is an illusion.
 

Todd

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I never said it was sympathetic. I merely pointed out that this persons beliefs according to certain standards can also be considered not sympathetic. They are the ones judging the Bible from a belief that presupposes some kind of moral highground and i was pointing out that this moral highground is an illusion.
So God is not sympathetic?
 

Todd

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...again, did I say that? Hell isnt a place of sympathy.
You didn't say either way, hence the reason I am asking the question.
So let me make it plain....

@Lyfe Do you believe God is sympathetic to people who don't understand the gospel of Jesus Christ?
 

Lyfe

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Discriminatating against someone is not the same as being unsympathetic toward someone Todd....
 

Todd

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Discriminatating against someone is not the same as being unsympathetic toward someone Todd....
Correct. But you said God is unsympathetic to some but not others. Discriminating is making a prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people.
 

Lyfe

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Was God sympathetic to those he was speaking towards in Romans 1? What about Jude? No, why?

If he does discriminate it is against those with hardened and unrepentant hearts that boast against him...
 
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No, I don't believe that there is no hell. I believe that there is no eternal hell. There is a huge difference between the two ideas. None of the Dharmic religions have the concept of an eternal hell, and avoiding hell is not their primary purpose.
I don't know about Hinduism...but in Buddhism...defiantly one primary purpose is to never born in lower realm which one of is them hell...so hell is of course to be avoided
 
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You didn't say either way, hence the reason I am asking the question.
So let me make it plain....

@Lyfe Do you believe God is sympathetic to people who don't understand the gospel of Jesus Christ?
its not about understanding its about conviction of ur heart, the rejection of the gospel is not because of lack of understanding its lack of humility, and pride.
 
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