Hell & The Odds of an Afterlife

[al-Taleb]

Those who hold those beliefs sugarcoat the idea of rebirth, but history has shown this world to be a pretty dark and unforgiving cruel world. There shouldnt be the optimism especially if you ended up in a soviet gulag during one of your incarnations or a kid with leukemia.

I don't think they sugarcoat it at all, but they don't emphasize fear of it to the degree that Abrahamic religions commonly do.

 

[cjkkw]

Huh? Atheism is only a lack of belief in deities because of the absence of evidence. What you say doesn't make sense.



This comment reflects very negatively on you. Such thinking is very judgmental and arrogant. You are no different from Atheists, only you hold one belief that they don't.

atheists d0nt believe in God right so find proof thaylt u created urselves and not god.

 

[Lyfe]

I don't think they sugarcoat it at all, but they don't emphasize fear of it to the degree that Abrahamic religions commonly do.

Buddhists and other new agers contend to adhere to beliefs that claim the moral highground so I would expect their outcomes should be immeasursbly higher in their ways than the other beliefs they judge yet they are much of the same. They should be able to fully transcend consequence for actions yet such beliefs likewise teach a form of punishment or consequence for ones actions in this life even though less severe. That hardly seems relevant though as one could still argue why such an outcome of rebirth for failing to arrive at a spiritual level of consciousness is anti human and even a lesser evil, especially if its likely that one could spend thousands and thousands of years getting recycled in a plane of existence that has a substantial history of its own woes and despairs. I hear some even say we are already in hell. Who would want to be reborn into such a place? Imagine the dread and horror that may overwhelm some of the people living in less fortunate times to know they will have to face it all over again...

 

[al-Taleb]

@al-Taleb
I see.
Well. These are valid observations.
If I may ask, in your perspective...
Why do people war?
You can say its over religion, but is it?
Isn't it really just beliefs?
The need to be believed.
Domination.
Control.
The assertion of that control?
As I see it...
People are born into a life not of their choosing guided by imperfect beings who are regurgitating pieces of history passed to them through time?
Even with what is known what is truly known?
You could spend your entire life trying to get to the bottom of it, and still not know.
This sounds like riddles, I know.....Lol

People war for a lot of reasons, it's quite territorial though.
War does have it's place in religious history (sacred even) but it is usually over territory, resources and trying to overrun other countries.

 

[al-Taleb]

Buddhists and other new agers

Buddhists aren't new agers.

Buddhism is also ancient, predating Christianity by centuries.

 

[al-Taleb]

Buddhists and other new agers contend to adhere to beliefs that claim the moral highground so I would expect their outcomes should be immeasursbly higher in their ways than the other beliefs they judge yet they are much of the same. They should be able to fully transcend consequence for actions yet such beliefs likewise teach a form of punishment or consequence for ones actions in this life even though less severe. That hardly seems relevant though as one could still argue why such an outcome of rebirth for failing to arrive at a spiritual level of consciousness is anti human and even a lesser evil, especially if its likely that one could spend thousands and thousands of years getting recycled in a plane of existence that has a substantial history of its own woes and despairs. I hear some even say we are already in hell. Who would want to be reborn into such a place? Imagine the dread and horror that may overwhelm some of the people living in less fortunate times to know they will have to face it all over again...

Why not go over to https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/ and ask some Buddhists your questions and see what their responses are?

 

[Lyfe]

Why cant the author of these laws of reincarnation just accept me as a flawed human being and grant me the peace of the salvation we all seek? Why will this author keep subjecting me to being reborn into this plane of lesser existence where pain and despair are always present?

 

[al-Taleb]

I'm by no means a Buddhist and am not really fit to be an apologist for Buddhists but I know that basically every single detail of your interpretation of Buddhism is very far off.

 

[al-Taleb]

Why cant the author of these laws of reincarnation just accept me as a flawed human being and grant me the peace of the salvation we all seek? Why will this author keep subjecting me to being reborn into this plane of lesser existence where pain and despair are always present?

Again, go and ask https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/

 

[Lyfe]

...from what i understand buddhism demands repentance or face the consequences of always being reincarnated and subjected to this world which many will argue is a type of hell.

 

[DavidSon]

I sent my soul through the invisible, some letter of the afterlife to spell. And by and by, my soul returned to me and said: “I, myself, am heaven and hell.”

– from The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam –

 

[A Freeman]

The Bible teaches reincarnation, throughout the Old Covenant and New Covenant. So does the Quran.

The Bhagavad-Gita likewise teaches reincarnation, as does Buddhism. Every Scriptural text also conveys a reward and punishment system, known in eastern religions as "karma" or in western religions as "just desserts" or "reaping what one sows".

The reason for reincarnation is very simple, once it's correctly understood that each of us are, in truth, spiritual Beings of Light that are temporarily "locked" (incarnated) into these human-animal bodies. Each of us NEED to learn lessons that are only possible to learn by experiencing lifetimes in bodies of different ethnic backgrounds and cultures, in both male and female bodies, to see how we perform in those various settings. That's the ONLY Way to be thorough and fair to everyone, providing each of us with ample opportunities to prove ourselves.

It obviously wouldn't be just if we were merely humans, some of which are born into comfortable conditions with access to educational materials and others not, with some living to be 100 and others not surviving childhood, and with some living in war torn parts of the world while others live in relative peace, etc.

After each lifetime, each of us is taken up to "paradise" to receive a life-review for the human life just lived. All of the evil done during that lifetime is erased, leaving only the good that has been learned. That way, each of us possess the cumulative good we've learned from every incarnation, forming the basis for our next incarnation, and ensuring we are in the exact place we've earned a right to be in eternal time.

 

[elsbet]

What a strange thing to say, yet you call yourself a Christian?

How so..? Do tell.

 

[shankara]

Buddhists and other new agers contend to adhere to beliefs that claim the moral highground so I would expect their outcomes should be immeasursbly higher in their ways than the other beliefs they judge yet they are much of the same. They should be able to fully transcend consequence for actions yet such beliefs likewise teach a form of punishment or consequence for ones actions in this life even though less severe. That hardly seems relevant though as one could still argue why such an outcome of rebirth for failing to arrive at a spiritual level of consciousness is anti human and even a lesser evil, especially if its likely that one could spend thousands and thousands of years getting recycled in a plane of existence that has a substantial history of its own woes and despairs. I hear some even say we are already in hell. Who would want to be reborn into such a place? Imagine the dread and horror that may overwhelm some of the people living in less fortunate times to know they will have to face it all over again...

You keep going on about how bad rebirth is while believing in a place where people are eternally tormented with fire for the crime of not professing the "correct" doctrine. Really which is the more cruel situation?

Why cant the author of these laws of reincarnation just accept me as a flawed human being and grant me the peace of the salvation we all seek? Why will this author keep subjecting me to being reborn into this plane of lesser existence where pain and despair are always present?

Because you are not really seeking peace and salvation. Perhaps you want the pleasures of the "Deva" realm, a paradise, or perhaps you want to enter the "Formless Deva" realm and be a blissful cosmic consciousness. You have subconscious or conscious desire to continue being reborn because you are attached to the pleasures in this world or the other realms. Until you free yourself from those attachments, your desire for freedom from rebirth is only an intellectual idea, you think that it's what you want but if that were really case then you would behave in such a way as to bring liberation.

Furthermore, you have Karmic negativity which you need to work out before you can be free, because you have to heal yourself and others from the results of the Karma you have created. If your Karma were pure, your desire would be enough, but it is not yet pure. You cannot simply be immediately forgiven, it is your Karma, you created it, and you have to take responsibility for it.

Healing is painful, it's like having one's bones reset when they are broken.

ETA : curiosity~ in Buddhism or lets just say a reincarnate religion, what is the ideal goal? Transcend to Nirvana?(I apologize for my ignorance here).

Yes and no. Generally yes, but the idea of what the Liberated state is varies. In Gaudiya Vaisnavism, Liberation is becoming an eternal servant of Krishna, the Supreme Lord. In Buddhism it is extinguishing all Karmic propensities, overcoming all negative emotions, attachments, ignorance. But there is also the ideal of the Bodhisattva, who remains in Samsara to be a force of compassion helping other beings. Of course, becoming a Bodhisattva means awakening, developing the correct type of mind filled with compassion and wisdom. So we could say that Liberation is a state of mind.

 

[Todd]

Based off of these three predominate belief systems you will eventually pay a consequence for your sin. What are the odds that all three of these beliefs are wrong and what chances do you have from a probability perspective? You could rule out Christianity, but what about Judaism and Islam? What are the odds that all three contain a false narrative of reality?

About the same as the odds that any government in the world is 100% truthful and honest with it's citizens about it's actions and intents...

Religion is one of the seven pillars of society.
1. Government
2. Economy
3. Education
4. Arts and Culture
5. Media
6. Family
7. Religion

What are the odds that Religion is the only one of those pillars that isn't manipulated or corrupted?

 

[Todd]

Do you suggest that avoiding hell is the primary purpose of the Bible?

No avoiding hell is not the primary purpose of the Bible, but most listening to most Christian's it's easy to think why someone would...

 

[Todd]

Then you contend there is a near 100% chance that ALL these beliefs are wrong... What are the odds of that?

100%. Even though God has given clues that hint at and confirm his existance, he has done very little to show us beyond a shadow of doubt what truth or truthes of any religion are correct....hence the common description of the acceptance of any religion is called "faith" and not "fact".

 

[Todd]

Why cant the author of these laws of reincarnation just accept me as a flawed human being and grant me the peace of the salvation we all seek? Why will this author keep subjecting me to being reborn into this plane of lesser existence where pain and despair are always present?

I agree with the implications of your suggestions here, but why is the doctrine of eternal torment that you hold to be true, any better?

 

[Lyfe]

You keep going on about how bad rebirth is while believing in a place where people are eternally tormented with fire for the crime of not professing the "correct" doctrine. Really which is the more cruel situation?



Because you are not really seeking peace and salvation. Perhaps you want the pleasures of the "Deva" realm, a paradise, or perhaps you want to enter the "Formless Deva" realm and be a blissful cosmic consciousness. You have subconscious or conscious desire to continue being reborn because you are attached to the pleasures in this world or the other realms. Until you free yourself from those attachments, your desire for freedom from rebirth is only an intellectual idea, you think that it's what you want but if that were really case then you would behave in such a way as to bring liberation.

Furthermore, you have Karmic negativity which you need to work out before you can be free, because you have to heal yourself and others from the results of the Karma you have created. If your Karma were pure, your desire would be enough, but it is not yet pure. You cannot simply be immediately forgiven, it is your Karma, you created it, and you have to take responsibility for it.

Healing is painful, it's like having one's bones reset when they are broken.



Yes and no. Generally yes, but the idea of what the Liberated state is varies. In Gaudiya Vaisnavism, Liberation is becoming an eternal servant of Krishna, the Supreme Lord. In Buddhism it is extinguishing all Karmic propensities, overcoming all negative emotions, attachments, ignorance. But there is also the ideal of the Bodhisattva, who remains in Samsara to be a force of compassion helping other beings. Of course, becoming a Bodhisattva means awakening, developing the correct type of mind filled with compassion and wisdom. So we could say that Liberation is a state of mind.

You keep going on about how bad rebirth is while believing in a place where people are eternally tormented with fire for the crime of not professing the "correct" doctrine. Really which is the more cruel situation?

I mentioned the problem with this earlier. You hold to a belief that you contend has the moral high ground so I would expect the outcomes of this belief to be immeasurably higher in its ways than the other beliefs you judge yet they are much of the same. This belief you hold to is supposed to be so much more human friendly and should be able to fully transcend consequence for actions yet such beliefs likewise teach a form of punishment or consequence for ones actions in this life even though less severe. One could legitimately argue that such an outcome of rebirth for failing to arrive at a spiritual level of consciousness is anti human and even a lesser evil, especially if its likely that one could spend thousands and thousands of years getting recycled in a plane of existence that has a substantial history of its own woes and despairs.

If I was an atheist or skpetic of any faith and heard the Buddhist way I may contend that such a belief is not even really any better than Christianity and is even a lesser evil, because it still judges and punishes based off of actions. I could tell a Buddhist his or her idea that their belief holds the moral highground over Christianity is an illusion, because people still get punished for not meeting a certain criteria of spirituality. You could argue that its an even greater evil in the sense that its hypocritical and sugarcoats its dealings with human beings in the afterlife to seem justified when really its the same concept of punishment. I could argue that holds to the idea of divine punishment for this life is not a higher way, but is much in the same as Christianity despite the Bible promising more severe chastisement than being reborn into the woes and despairs of the world.

Because you are not really seeking peace and salvation. Perhaps you want the pleasures of the "Deva" realm, a paradise, or perhaps you want to enter the "Formless Deva" realm and be a blissful cosmic consciousness. You have subconscious or conscious desire to continue being reborn because you are attached to the pleasures in this world or the other realms. Until you free yourself from those attachments, your desire for freedom from rebirth is only an intellectual idea, you think that it's what you want but if that were really case then you would behave in such a way as to bring liberation.

Furthermore, you have Karmic negativity which you need to work out before you can be free, because you have to heal yourself and others from the results of the Karma you have created. If your Karma were pure, your desire would be enough, but it is not yet pure. You cannot simply be immediately forgiven, it is your Karma, you created it, and you have to take responsibility for it.

So now your justifying my punishment and saying I am getting what I deserve in this life? Even though what I did in my last life is hidden from me and I cannot even review the charges against me.... Its no wonder so many people get recycled. Not only is this law hidden from them, but they cant see their cases brought against them either...

 

[Lyfe]

Its as I said earlier as well depending on where you come from and what time you come from the idea of being reborn into this world could be viewed as a crushing blow to the hearer of such things. Imagine being born with birth defects from depleted uranium. Imagine being born with no ligaments. Imagine living in a soviet gulag most of your life. Telling such people they will be reborn into this world would scare the pants off of them, yet you would suggest Buddhism is the moral high ground and superior in its ways. These people are completely oblivious and keep getting punished for things they arent even being made aware of so they cant even work to correct themselves.... You would suggest that they are deserving of such a life. Now if I was an atheist or agnostic I could apply the same standard you use to judge Christianity and apply it to your own belief and come away with the same conclusion. I wouldn't want to follow the ways of Buddha if such things are true(some atheist may reason). Im essentially being punished over and over again for being a slave to this material world and my ego. I could even try my damndest to be a Buddha and still fail in many lives is what you are telling me.