Evidence for God

billy t

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Does that mean if an intelligence speaks to us and give us evidence supporting "monotheistic beliefs," we can identify the intelligence as God?
God sends righteous people as messengers to guide mankind via malaa'ikah which can be translated as 'angels' but the islamic understanding of angels is not like the Western understanding. They were created from light and we do not regard them as male or female. Allah sends angels to convey the revelation to the Messengers and the Messengers can also receive the message directly as well. God chooses the best of His creation to deliver the message otherwise anyone can just come along and say they are inspired. Those who make up their own religion and say they were inspired by God can be identified by key signs just as true Messengers are known by key signs. Of those signs is being known for trustworthiness and having good morals and character. Miracles in and of themselves are not sufficient because even misguided people can do miracles by working with certain entities or doing magic etc.
 

Tidal

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Ah ok :) Let me quote the question again. I changed it.
Does that mean, if we don't know how to make a seed, then that means, the Quran was sent by God and/or the Bible was sent by God?

The bible and the koran don't tell us how to make seeds..:)
 

DanRaleigh

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God sends righteous people as messengers to guide mankind via malaa'ikah which can be translated as 'angels' but the islamic understanding of angels is not like the Western understanding. They were created from light and we do not regard them as male or female.
This is something that we can expect to see when an intelligence who is able to critically think assigning a task such as the one we discuss. But can we use this understanding to identify if the intelligence behind the Quran is God?

Those who make up their own religion and say they were inspired by God can be identified by key signs just as true Messengers are known by key signs. Of those signs is being known for trustworthiness and having good morals and character.
If prophet Muhammad's life had these qualities as you stated, then can we say that the Quran was transmitted by God?

Miracles in and of themselves are not sufficient because even misguided people can do miracles by working with certain entities or doing magic etc.
The statement speak for itself and I cannot agree with you more. People should never take a phenomenon that doesn't make sense to us to conclude the existence of God or God is behind the phenomenon what was observed.
 
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DanRaleigh

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The bible and the koran don't tell us how to make seeds..:)
Yea, but I did not understand why you concluded the existence of God or Bible was transmitted by God just because scientists cannot "MAKE one"?
 

Tidal

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Yea, but I did not understand why you concluded the existence of God or Bible was transmitted by God just because scientists cannot "MAKE one"?

Making a seed has got nothing to do with the bible and koran..:)
 

DanRaleigh

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Making a seed has got nothing to do with the bible and koran..:)
I was referring to one of your earlier statements(quoted below). Maybe you were implying something else?

My point is that although scientists can analyse, dissect and break a seed down into it's chemical components and write books about it, they can't actually MAKE one
 
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Hello @DanRaleigh. The Quran speaks about what Tidal has mentioned, namely, that humans cannot create even as trivial a thing as a seed, or in the Quran's parable, an insect.

"O mankind, a parable has been composed, so listen to it! Those whom you appeal to other than to God will never create a fly, even though they combined together to do so. Yet if the fly should snatch anything away from them, they would not even know how to recover it from it. How weak the seeker is, and anything he seeks!" Quran 22:73

On your question about the Quran's origins, God says:

"Do they not contemplate the Quran? Had it been from other than God, they would surely have found much discrepancy therein." Quran 4:82

The Creator invites those who doubt the Quran's origin to find inconsistencies and mistakes in it, as if it were from a creature other than the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator, it would be subject to error. No other book that claims to be scripture challenges people to attempt to falsify it.

"Say, "If all human beings and jinn were to come together to bring the equivalent of this Quran, they could not do so, even if they all were to help each other."" Quran 17:88

This excellent article examines all theories put forward for the Quran's authorship: https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/17/viewall/authorship-of-quran/
 
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Tidal

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I was referring to one of your earlier statements(quoted below). Maybe you were implying something else?
Tidal said:
My point is that although scientists can analyse, dissect and break a seed down into it's chemical components and write books about it, they can't actually MAKE one.
I was simply poking fun at scientists who say there's no God, because they haven't even got the brains to make an ordinary little seed..:)

Same with their efforts to make an "intelligent" anti-aircraft missile, they've been pouring millions of dollars into its development for the past 60 years, but the things still can't tell the difference between an aircraft and decoy flares and silver foil chaff..:)
 

DanRaleigh

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Hello @DanRaleigh. The Quran speaks about what Tidal has mentioned, namely, that humans cannot create even as trivial a thing as a seed, or in the Quran's parable, an insect.

"O mankind, a parable has been composed, so listen to it! Those whom you appeal to other than to God will never create a fly, even though they combined together to do so. Yet if the fly should snatch anything away from them, they would not even know how to recover it from it. How weak the seeker is, and anything he seeks!" Quran 22:73
Hello @pescatarian09, here you took a statement made by an intelligence. There's nothing we can do to verify the true identity of the intelligence who made this statement. Although this is true can we take this statement to conclude that the Quran was sent by God or God exists? On the other hand, if an intelligence who can telepathically communicate with us point to an apparent inability of a human being such as the one you mentioned, can we take that to conclude that the intelligence who is communicating with us is God or take that to conclude that God exists?

On your question about the Quran's origins, God says:

"Do they not contemplate the Quran? Had it been from other than God, they would surely have found much discrepancy therein." Quran 4:82

The Creator invites those who doubt the Quran's origin to find inconsistencies and mistakes in it, as if it were from a creature other than the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator, it would be subject to error. No other book that claims to be scripture challenges people to attempt to falsify it.

"Say, "If all human beings and jinn were to come together to bring the equivalent of this Quran, they could not do so, even if they all were to help each other."" Quran 17:88

This excellent article examines all theories put forward for the Quran's authorship: https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/17/viewall/authorship-of-quran/
- Does that mean if an intelligence gives us a book without any inconsistencies (let's say a better version of Bible and/or Quran), can we use that to conclude that the intelligence who is giving the book is God? I will read the article later. Thanks.
 
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DanRaleigh

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if an intelligence claims to be Gabriel or God telepathically communicate with us today and give us the Quran or a better version of the Quran, how can we verify and know that the intelligence is indeed God or an intelligence was sent by God? (if God actually exists)
 
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Hello @pescatarian09, here you took a statement made by an intelligence. There's nothing we can do to verify the true identity of the intelligence who made this statement. Although this is true can we take this statement to conclude that the Quran was sent by God or God exists? On the other hand, if an intelligence who can telepathically communicate with us point to an apparent inability of a human being such as the one you mentioned, can we take that to conclude that the intelligence who is communicating with us is God or take that to conclude that God exists?



- Does that mean if an intelligence gives us a book without any inconsistencies (let's say a better version of Bible and/or Quran), can we use that to conclude that the intelligence who is giving the book is God? I will read the article later. Thanks.
You say we cannot verify the identity of the intelligence behind the Quran. But just as the authorship of other scriptures can be investigated, so can that of the Quran.

The Quran cannot be the words of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him [pbuh]), because Muhammad (pbuh) was not able to read or write, nor able to compose poetry and prose. The Quran addresses a range of subjects, from the origin of universe, to biology, human history, government, religious legislation, human interactions, worship, life and death, etc., vast topics that could not be expounded upon by an illiterate man without any formal education, and whose experience had been shaped only by his tribal desert city. The Quran holds historical insights into Ancient Egypt, for example, that cannot have been known by any person prior to new findings made in the 19th century - here is a video exploring this topic that you may wish to watch. Some other insights of the Quran that cannot have been known to Muhammad (pbuh) or other contemporary sources include: the spherical shape of the earth, the stages of development of the human embryo, and the function of mountains as deep foundations that give the earth stability. These are not things that any being could know besides the Creator Himself. No supernatural beings (jinns [this includes devils] and angels) can possess such knowledge.

Muhammad (pbuh) was always known as a virtuous and truthful man amongst his community before he ever made the claim of prophethood; he was not a liar or deceiver. People would leave their valuable possessions with him for safe-keeping, and entrust him with important tasks. When offered leadership, riches, and land by the wealthy elite of his city in return for compromising or abandoning his message of monotheism, he refused to do so, saying: “By God, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, demanding that I abandon this cause, I would never do so until God decides what He wills, or I die in defence of it.” If he were motivated by the desire for glory, wealth, and notoriety he would have yielded to these offers, and abandoned the message that had caused him and his companions to suffer much humiliation, hardship, hunger, loss, and poverty. Yet, he stood his ground and refused to do so.

Nor can the Quran be said to be the words of other human beings. It is a masterpiece of Classical Arabic, with a depth of expression and majesty that silenced even the most eloquent poets of the Makkans (a people noted for their linguistic prowess), and unrivalled by any other scripture or treatise since. The Quran is “the most eminent written manifestation of the Arabic language”, and on a level of its own. It contains intricate and varied rhyming patterns that do not compromise its meaning in any way; the words used are precisely selected to express an emotive meaning and rhythm; various rhetorical features are employed such as figures of speech, metaphors, the use of irony, grammatical shifts, all of which amount to a cohesive text that is as much inimitable as it is powerful. The inimitability of the Quran lies at the heart of its claim to divine origin. No text can match it.

The renowned grammarian, Sir Hamilton Gibb, commented on this:
“As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style… in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.”

You also questioned whether a scripture that is free of inconsistencies and inaccuracies means that it must be from God. Being faultless and without contradiction is one of the most important standard against which to judge a scripture. God is all-knowing and perfect, while the creations of God are flawed, make mistakes, and do not possess all knowledge. If a scripture claims to be revelation from Almighty God, it must be free of contradictions and errors, otherwise it cannot be from God, as God does not make mistakes or get things wrong, as humans do. If a scripture contains historical, scientific and factual errors and inaccuracies, or has been changed or manipulated, it undermines and detracts from the claim that this scripture is the absolute truth from the Creator. In light of this, the Quran openly challenges those who doubt it to try and find errors and contradictions in it, something that a scripture fabricated by men would never do, in fear of reprisal and exposition.

“Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.” [Quran 4:82]

“And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides God if you are truthful.” [Quran 2:23]
 

DanRaleigh

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@pescatarian09, the earlier question that I asked from you is bit more serious than you might have thought. Let me briefly discuss my reasoning here.

The following evidence indicates that Prophet Muhammad's speech production system was entirely controlled by an intelligence in real-time:

i). "When voices are heard or uttered in a state of trance"

"In the first verse quoted above it is stated that Allah speaks to man — t.e., revelation to man is granted— in three ways : (1) by infusing an idea into the mind — the word wahy used here carries its original significance of a sudden suggestion ; (2) from behind a veil, which includes ru'ya (dream), its higher form kashf (vision) and the still higher form ilhām, when voices are heard or uttered in a state of trance ; (3) when a messenger, the angel Gabriel, is sent with the Divine message in clear words to the recipient of the revelation. The third is the highest form of revelation : the Divine message is sent not in the form of an idea as in the first case or in the form of a vision as in the second but in words through the angel ; and it is peculiar to the prophets"

Source: A Manual of Hadith by Maulana Muhammad Ali

ii). "But, how could he who was illiterate, he who had never composed a single verse, who has shown no inclination to lead people, suddenly have words flowing from his lips "

"The Prophet’s message challenged them all, exposed them all and threatened them all. His immediate opponents in Makkah could do no better than brand him unconvincingly as a liar, a poet, soothsayer and a man possessed."

" But, how could he who was illiterate, he who had never composed a single verse, who has shown no inclination to lead people, suddenly have words flowing from his lips so full of wisdom and light, morally so uplifting, specifically so enlivening, so beautiful and powerful, that they began to change the hearts and minds and lives of the hearer? His detractors and opponents had no answer."

Source: https://www.quranproject.org/Short-Biography-of-Prophet-Muhammad-25-d

iii). "The prophet’s mind is inactive during the production of the Quranic segments":

"Nor are we speaking here of the actively alert passivity of an engaged mind ready for creative endeavour, feeling fully the internal pressure of choice and editorial selection. No. The prophetic mind, according to Muslims, has all its creative, though not conscious, processes, switched off. The prophet’s mind is inactive during the production of the Quranic segments so that Muhammad’s psyche passively receives the sacred text. Passivity, however, is not unconsciousness."

Source: The Quran and the Secular Mind: A Philosophy of Islam 1st Edition by Shabbir Akhtar

Let me put this into perspective:

People who lived in the 7th century reports that although Prophet Muhammad wasn't thinking and controlling his speech organs (In other words, speech organs were not controlled by his own intelligence/mind) when receiving Wahy/revelations, his speech organs still produced speech (automatic speech) and people who lived back then took this observed phenomenon as a miracle (bear in mind that prophet Muhammad reportedly received these revelations/Wahy in various ways).

From a technical perspective: An intelligence was controlling neural circuits in real-time:

We know that to produce speech, our speech production system/speech organs should receive signals from neural circuits of the motor cortex. And when we speak, these neural circuits are controlled by our own intelligence/thoughts; as a result, we are able to control the signals that go to speech organs. By controlling speech organs this way, we control what we say.

People who lived back then were reporting that prophet Muhammad produced speech without thinking. In fact, the Quran is a highly coded book, therefore, evidence supports this belief. If you ask the question, "How that is even possible?" They have given an answer to that as well. People were claiming that an intelligence was controlling prophet Muhammad's speech, and that is how the speech was produced without thinking. If I put it in another way, what people were claiming is that prophet Muhammad's motor neural circuits—and the neural correlates of his trance—were controlled by an intelligence (not his intelligence/thoughts) in real-time.

You might wonder why I specifically mentioned real-time here. Think of it this way: What if the intelligence was not controlling these motor neural circuits in real-time? The spoken words would not flow naturally. What if the intelligence stopped controlling these neural circuits in the middle of a sentence? The speech production system/speech organs would stop producing speech immediately. Since prophet Muhammed was in a state of trance when receiving these revelations/Wahy, we could say that various other brain areas are also being controlled by the intelligence. We can also see that Prophet Muhammad's mind was not even able to interfere with these controlled signals when the intelligence was in control of the motor neural circuits (and whatever the neural correlates of his experience). From an advanced technology perspective, this experience implies that someone has hacked into his brain and used his brain/organs as a medium to transmit messages/knowledge to him and to his community (and to our civilization).

Speech organs producing speech that cannot attribute to ones own intelligence/mind (or without thinking) is a commonly reported experience:

i). The Bible reports that people spoke in languages that they have never learned, which is another form of inspired speech. When we analyze the technical side of the phenomenon, we can see that people who lived in Biblical times had the same experience that prophet Muhammad had with the intelligence believed to be Allah/God.

Let me take a reported experience from the Bible to explain this: "They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV

When we say something, the neural circuits in our motor cortex send signals to speech organs continuously; as a result speech organs produce speech. These neural circuits are controlled by our intelligence/mind. If our intelligence/mind, for instance, doesn't know how to produce Greek words orally, then another intelligence must control these neural circuits in real-time to produce words in Greek, orally. Since people report that their speech organs produced speech in languages that they have never learned, their experiences imply that an external intelligence was controlling neural circuits of the motor cortex in real-time (this way our speech organs will produce the intended words by the intelligence; and also without an interruption. To put it in another way, the intelligence using our speech organs as an instrument to produce speech). Without this real-time control by an intelligence, our speech organs cannot produce speech from a language that we have never learned. From this perspective, the experience of the prophet Muhammad and the reported experiences in the Bible are the same.

In short: People report an experience where an intelligence controlling neural circuits of the motor cortex (and other neural correlates of the experience) in real-time. This action has generated a continuous signal; as a result, speech organs ended up producing speech. However, because of the parameters of the generated signals—by the intelligence—speech organs were producing speech differently (and the produced knowledge/information were also different). Nevertheless, we call one phenomenon "speaking in tongues" and the other phenomenon "Wahy/revelations". Although we use different names to address these phenomena, from a technical standpoint, both phenomena exhibit the same technical characteristics.

ii). When the phenomenon of spiritualism/spiritism was establishing on Earth in the 19th century, reportedly, many mediums started speaking in languages that they have never learned (Ones own intelligence was not the cause behind the produced words). Let me take an example from reported experiences:

"She next became developed to speak different languages. She knows no language but her own"

"At first she was violently agitated in her person. She soon wrote mechanically ; that is, without any volition on her part, and without any consciousness of what she was penning. Having a strong will, she was able at any moment, by exercising it, to arrest the manifestation. She next became a speaking medium. She was not entranced as some are, into a state of unconsciousness, but was fully aware of all she was saying and of all that occurred around her. She, however, had not advanced far enough to know the source whence came the thoughts which she was uttering, and she imagined they might be the product of her own mind. To"

"She next became developed to speak different languages. She knows no language but her own, and a little smattering of boarding-school French. Yet she has spoken in nine or ten different tongues, sometimes for an hour at a time, with the ease and fluency of a native. . . .”

- Source: Spiritualism By John W. Edmonds - P44/45

Therefore, instead of God controlling motor neural circuits in real-time, the intelligences claim to be spirits were in control of motor neural circuits in real-time to produce speech. Meaning, we can find a logical reason for why—just like the prophets—mediums were able to produce speech without learning and creating memories in their brains. Since these intelligences claim to be spirits or souls of the dead can control neural circuits, these intelligences can control a brain to produce the knowledge that we identify as revelations/Wahy or even replicate the phenomenon that is known as speaking in tongues. However, surprisingly, just like the intelligence claims to be God, we can't find convincing evidence to conclude that spirits/souls of the dead exist and they(souls of the dead) communicate with people.

This does not mean that people are lying about their experiences, instead, it's apparent that there's an issue with the claimed identity of the intelligence.

iii). From the 20th century onwards, reportedly, intelligences claim to be aliens controlled speech organs of contactees. From a technical standpoint, they had the same experience that Prophet Muhammad and the other Biblical prophets had. Let me take a reported incident to explain this:

“Within a few short minutes I felt the urge to speak, and as this urge began to express itself in a whispered Voice dissimilar to my own, another portion of my mind—the rational, "in charge" version—began to question, through thought, the very voice that was speaking! After What seemed to be a half hour, the unknown announced its presence as"the Pleiadians" and left it at that. The total communication was no longer than one hour. “

Source: Bringers of the Dawn: Teachings from the Pleiadians By Barbara Marciniak

The same explanation applies here as well. Barbara Marciniak claims that her speech was controlled by an intelligence claims to be an alien. An intelligence controlling speech means, the signals that go to speech organs were controlled by the intelligence. Since these signals originate from motor neural circuits, her experience indicates that the intelligence was controlling motor neural circuits (and other neural correlates associate with the experience) in real-time. If the intelligence failed to control neural circuits in real-time, speech organs will not produce oral words as intended by the intelligence continuously. On the other hand, we can say that this reported ability of the intelligence can replicate the phenomenon that is known as speaking in tongues or even to control neural circuits of our brains to produce the knowledge that we identify as revelations/Wahy (by controlling speech organs). Considering the parallels that we can see in this research material, what can we make of these experiences?

If we dig a little more deeply, we can find that the people who had the above experience, sometimes were fallen into trances, sometimes they were predicting the future, sometimes they were seeing apparitions, sometimes they were having various other visual perceptions, automatic writing experience and even healing of their bodies (or they were able to heal others), etc. Therefore, as in general people who reported this experience were having a common experience.

The Quran is a complex book (it's highly coded and the book shows a connection to the Bible. Reported experiences are also identical, but the claims of the Quran contradicts the Bible). Because of the complexity of the book, it's not logical to think that the Quran was written by Prophet Muhammad (So, I agree with you on this point). Instead, when we analyze the reported life experience of Prophet Muhammad and when we analyze the content of the book, the evidence supports the belief claim that "the Quran was transmitted by an intelligence to prophet Muhammad." Does that mean God transmitted the knowledge? No. We cannot use the reported human experiences and the content of the book to conclude that the book (knowledge) was transmitted by God (the hypothetical intelligence). However, what we can say is that an intelligence claims to be God/Allah and/or an intelligence claims to be an angel(s) sent by God/Allah, transmitted the knowledge to Prophet Muhammad. This is true for Christianity and Judaism as well; the evidence indicates that an external intelligence was transmitting knowledge to people. Supporting evidence for this claim can be seen in Dr. Panin's (below is an excerpt from a book written by Jonathan Gray) research work:

"In any case, it became apparent to panin that whoever had organized the New Testament had arranged its words and letters precisely in numeric order, and guided them into combinations of numbers. And this Intelligence was careful to weave designs and intricate cross-patterns into every section of this 21-book volume. So what had Panin found? Simply this, that the New Testament, in Greek, was like a single skilfully designed artefact... nothing less than the product of some mathematical mastermind. Panin had discovered a deliberate structuring that was far beyond human possibility to invent."

Source: The Forbidden Secret By Jonathan Gray - P386

Since we could still see codes in these books (preserved), it's not logical for us to think that these books are changed massively. Instead, we can see indications to support the conclusion that the content of the books is different by design. If I put it in another way, we can see an intentional act of an intelligence who was able to communicate with human beings directly/telepathically. This explains why the given identity of the intelligence was also changing from time to time.

In the literature on UFOs, these experiences can be found quite often. We should not forget that this intelligence(s), claim to be an alien was giving us conclusive evidence, again and again, to conclude that they(an intelligence) lie and that they exploit us in ways not even the science we know can explain. Lastly and most importantly, we know that we can trace this intelligence back to ancient times. This doesn't mean that aliens are here. That's another highly controversial belief. (I will share more data on this later)

If you try to identify the true identity of the intelligence behind the Quran, it becomes even more complicated when we analyze the life experience of Hazrat Mirza. Reportedly, an intelligence claimed to be God/Allah(and/or angels) controlled the speech production system of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - The Founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in the 19th/20th century:

i). "When the two Maulanas were ready, Hazrat Mirza started his Arabic sermon with "O Servants of Allah." Hazrat Mirza's total engrossment and absorption in this Arabic sermon was beyond description. It was apparent from his face and demeanor that at that moment, he was out of this world, and his speech was not in his control but Divinely guided. His half closed eyes made it appear as if he was in a trance. He spoke with such eloquence and fluency that even a learned Arabic scholar and scribe like Maulvi Abdul Karim had difficulty, at times, to keep up with him. Maulvi Abdul Karim would then request that a sentence be repeated, and Hazrat Mirza would repeat the exact same words."

Source: The Great Reformer – Volume 1: Biography of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian By Dr. Basharat Ahmad

ii). "Although it is true that poets and other such people also receive inspiration after thought and reflection, it is a gross insolence to relate it to Divine revelation, because inspiration is a result of one’s own deep reflection and is experienced while one is fully conscious and is in full control of his faculties; while Divine revelation is received only when the whole being of the recipient is under the control of God Almighty, and his own senses or reflections have no part to play in the revelation. At that instant one feels that his tongue is not his own and some Mighty Power is controlling it."

iii). "It is evident that from comparatively early days he had trances ; fell into fits in which he saw and heard strange things. There came to him voices, either apparently in a trance condition or when he was awake. Driven by fear for his soul, he had got into the habit of retiring into desert recesses, and there spending days in solitary prayer. So there the voices came to him ; there he even saw figures—vague, dim—and the fear fell upon him. What are they ? What is the matter with me ? Is this of God ? Or am I possessed by some spirit ?"

Source: The Religious Life of India Edited By J. N. FARQUHAR, M.A., D.Litt - (p.22)

iv). "Revelations begin in dreams, as it is related of Prophet Muhammad. His wife says that at first the prophet used to have beautiful dreams, and their fulfilment w^as as sure as day follow^s night. The same has been told by Ahmad about himself in his life. He first used to see true dreams and clear visions before he received verbal revelations containing grand prophecies."

Source: The Religious Life of India Edited By J. N. FARQUHAR, M.A., D.Litt - (Appendix I)

Also see:

https://trueislam.com/

The movement has around 10 to 20 million worldwide followers in 200+ countries. Although, the majority of Muslims reject the claims made by the movement, what conclusions can be drawn from his experience?

i). Hazrat Mirza explains his experience as "At that instant one feels that his tongue is not his own and some Mighty Power is controlling it." This claim implies that an intelligence controlled his motor neural circuits (and other the neural correlates of his experience) in real-time in order to control the signals that go to his speech organs. From a technical perspective, it's the same experience that prophet Muhammad, prophets mentions in the Bible, and even the mediums were having. People who communicated with the intelligences claim to be aliens were having the same.

ii). He had visions. If the intelligence controlled his motor neural circuits in real-time to produce speech when transmitting visions the intelligence could have controlled neural circuits associated with visual perception areas in real-time. (Without controlling neural circuits in real-time or continuously controlling/affecting neural circuits associated with visual perceptions, we can't expect to see a continuous vision that is meaningful)

iii). Reportedly, Hazrat Mirza heard an audible voice and he had two-way communication with the intelligence. Since the conversation with the intelligence was going inside his mind, to hear the voice of the intelligence, the intelligence must control neural circuits associate with auditory perception areas in real-time. On the other hand, the reported experience implies that the intelligence used a mechanism to decode thoughts/neural activities in real-time.

iv). The intelligence used dreams as a communication modality. The intelligence must have controlled neural circuits associate with dream perception areas in real-time.

v). The intelligence reportedly induced trance states. In other words, the intelligence was controlling neural correlates associate with trance mind states.

vi). The intelligence reportedly predicted the future.

On the other hand, these experiences imply that the intelligence communicated with Hazrat Mirza possess an ability to:

i). Control neural circuits of human brains in real-time in order to control speech.

ii). Control neural correlates associate with visual perceptions in real-time in order to transmit visions.

iii). Control neural correlates associate with trance mind states in real-time.

iv). Control neural correlates associate with perception of dreams in real-time in order to transmit knowledge/information.

v). Decode thoughts of human beings in real-time, so the intelligence can engage in a telepathic conversation with the contacted person.

vi). Predict future events.

vii). And most importantly, it should also be noted that—if the claimed experiences are true—the intelligence that communicated with Hazrat Mirza exhibits an ability that can create massive movements by establishing new religious beliefs or even changing old religious beliefs on Earth(already the movement has around 10 to 20 million followers).

In addition to the above, when we analyze the life experiences of Hazrat Mirza, surprisingly, we can see a subset of the life experiences that prophet Muhammad had with the intelligence believed to be God/Allah. If the claimed experiences are true, then we can derive the conclusion that Hazrat Mirza was contacted by an intelligence whose capabilities (mentioned above) show a subset of the capabilities exhibited by the intelligence(s) that communicated with Prophet Muhammad and the prophets mentions in the Bible. Not only that these exhibited capabilities are a subset of the capabilities exhibited by the intelligence that communicated with mediums and contactees.

Are there any indications to support the claimed experience is true? Dr. Basharat Ahmad states in his writing that "It was apparent from his face and demeanor that at that moment, he was out of this world, and his speech was not in his control but Divinely guided."

People are not making this observation for the first time. This phenomenon has been observed again and again when people say that their speech was assisted by an intelligence that communicates with them. Because of this observation, Hazrat Mirza's experience cannot be dismissed blindly.

And I don't find a reason for why Hazrat Mirza was lying to us about his experience. Which means, he was contacted by an intelligence claims to be God/Allah, who understand our religious beliefs better than we understand these beliefs. And the intelligence is powerful enough to create a massive movement. However, we see signs of deception.

Because of these reported experiences, let me ask this question again (this is a question that we as a civilization should think):

"if an intelligence claims to be Gabriel or God telepathically communicate with us today and give us the Quran or a better version of the Quran, how can we verify and know that the intelligence is indeed God or an intelligence was sent by God? (if God actually exists)
 
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Cintra

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I was simply poking fun at scientists who say there's no God, because they haven't even got the brains to make an ordinary little seed..:)

Same with their efforts to make an "intelligent" anti-aircraft missile, they've been pouring millions of dollars into its development for the past 60 years, but the things still can't tell the difference between an aircraft and decoy flares and silver foil chaff..:)
They don't know where the moon came from either.
 

DanRaleigh

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@pescatarian09 , I'm not sure if my writing made any sense to anyone since I addressed technical side of these experiences. Anyway, assume that on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God. Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point(since they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). What kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders here? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true?
 
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A Freeman

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You also questioned whether a scripture that is free of inconsistencies and inaccuracies means that it must be from God. Being faultless and without contradiction is one of the most important standard against which to judge a scripture. God is all-knowing and perfect, while the creations of God are flawed, make mistakes, and do not possess all knowledge. If a scripture claims to be revelation from Almighty God, it must be free of contradictions and errors, otherwise it cannot be from God, as God does not make mistakes or get things wrong, as humans do. If a scripture contains historical, scientific and factual errors and inaccuracies, or has been changed or manipulated, it undermines and detracts from the claim that this scripture is the absolute truth from the Creator. In light of this, the Quran openly challenges those who doubt it to try and find errors and contradictions in it, something that a scripture fabricated by men would never do, in fear of reprisal and exposition.
ALL Scripture contains built-in error correction, which is proof of its divine origin. We're even warned that every single prophet, apostle/messenger, including Mohammad, will not only have some satanic vanity thrown into their efforts, but this is allowed to test those whose hearts are already hardened against the truth.

Have alterations and intentional mistranslations been made to the Bible? Of course. Has the same thing happened to the Koran? Absolutely. Were these incorrect writings of God's Word prophesied? YES. We're even told exactly why God allows it, if anyone is paying attention.

From the Holy Koran (Quran):-

Sura 6:112-115
6:112. Likewise We made for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and Beings (human+beings), inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
6:113. To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.
6:114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than "I AM"? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you The Book (Bible), explained in detail." They, to whom We have given The Book, know full well, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. NEVER be then one of those who doubt (Sura 3:1-3, 15:9, 32:23).
6:115. The Word of thy Lord doth find its FULFILLMENT in TRUTH and in JUSTICE: none can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.

Sura 22:52-55
22:52. Never did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" WILL CONFIRM (AND ESTABLISH) HIS SIGNS (Sura 32:23): for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. THAT HE MAY MAKE THE SUGGESTIONS THROWN IN BY SATAN, BUT A TRIAL FOR THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS A DISEASE AND WHO ARE HARDENED OF HEART: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Sura 3:55).
22:55. Those who reject Faith will not cease to be in doubt concerning (Revelation) until The Hour (of Judgment) comes suddenly upon them, or there comes to them the Penalty of a Day of Disaster.

Sura 25:31. Thus have We made for every Prophet an enemy among the sinners: but enough is thy Lord to guide and to help.

Compare with: Enoch 104:8, 2 Thess. 2:7-12 from the Holy Bible.

So how do we recognize and correct the alterations? Again, we need only turn to the Scripture for the answer, where God has told us that when His Words have been correctly written in our own languages, all of them SHALL concur and MUST have multiple witnesses (Num. 35:30, Deut. 17:6, Deut. 19:15).

Enoch 104:9-11
104:9 They (My words) shall neither change nor diminish (Deut. 4:2, 12:32, Matt. 5:17-19, Mark 13:31); but when all shall be written correctly; ALL, which from the first I have uttered concerning them SHALL CONCUR (John 10:35; Sura 15:9-10).
104:10 Another secret also I point out. To the righteous and the wise shall be given Books of joy, of integrity, and of great Wisdom. To them shall Books be given (Rev. 10:7-10, Rev. 2:17), in which they shall believe (and Live by);
104:11 And in which they shall rejoice. And all the righteous shall be rewarded, who from these (Books) shall acquire the Knowledge of The Straight Way (Deut. 31:29, Matt. 7:13-14, John 14:6, Rev. 14:1-4, Sura 6:153-161).

Sura 39:23. "I AM" has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book (Sura 9:111), CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften (Ezek. 36:26) to the celebration of "I AM"'s praises (Prov. 1:7; 9:10). Such is the Guidance from "I AM": He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as "I AM" leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

This is how and why ANY additions or alterations made to the Bible or the Koran stick out like a sore thumb, and how we can know when something has been removed or changed.

The Holy Scriptures have yet another fail-safe built into them to prove themselves, and to leave no doubt of their off-world, spiritual origin: do specifically as instructed, and one will see the results for themselves.

John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 IF any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Sura 5:102. The Messenger's duty is only to proclaim (the Message)(John 7:16-17). But "I AM" knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

IT'S THE MESSAGE (TRUTH) FROM GOD THAT MATTERS, NOT WHO DELIVERS IT.

And the ONLY Way to test that truth is to LIVE IT and see for yourself whether it works.
 

DanRaleigh

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@A Freeman and @pescatarian09 , I got your point but based on your understanding, what kind of response do you think that prophet Muhammad would get if he had engaged in this activity? If you see an issue here, how are you going explain the controversy?

"Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point(since they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). What kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders here? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? "

ALL Scripture contains built-in error correction, which is proof of its divine origin. We're even warned that every single prophet, apostle/messenger, including Mohammad, will not only have some satanic vanity thrown into their efforts, but this is allowed to test those whose hearts are already hardened against the truth.

Have alterations and intentional mistranslations been made to the Bible? Of course. Has the same thing happened to the Koran? Absolutely. Were these incorrect writings of God's Word prophesied? YES. We're even told exactly why God allows it, if anyone is paying attention.

From the Holy Koran (Quran):-

Sura 6:112-115
6:112. Likewise We made for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and Beings (human+beings), inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
6:113. To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.
6:114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than "I AM"? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you The Book (Bible), explained in detail." They, to whom We have given The Book, know full well, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. NEVER be then one of those who doubt (Sura 3:1-3, 15:9, 32:23).
6:115. The Word of thy Lord doth find its FULFILLMENT in TRUTH and in JUSTICE: none can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.

Sura 22:52-55
22:52. Never did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" WILL CONFIRM (AND ESTABLISH) HIS SIGNS (Sura 32:23): for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. THAT HE MAY MAKE THE SUGGESTIONS THROWN IN BY SATAN, BUT A TRIAL FOR THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS A DISEASE AND WHO ARE HARDENED OF HEART: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Sura 3:55).
22:55. Those who reject Faith will not cease to be in doubt concerning (Revelation) until The Hour (of Judgment) comes suddenly upon them, or there comes to them the Penalty of a Day of Disaster.

Sura 25:31. Thus have We made for every Prophet an enemy among the sinners: but enough is thy Lord to guide and to help.

Compare with: Enoch 104:8, 2 Thess. 2:7-12 from the Holy Bible.

So how do we recognize and correct the alterations? Again, we need only turn to the Scripture for the answer, where God has told us that when His Words have been correctly written in our own languages, all of them SHALL concur and MUST have multiple witnesses (Num. 35:30, Deut. 17:6, Deut. 19:15).

Enoch 104:9-11
104:9 They (My words) shall neither change nor diminish (Deut. 4:2, 12:32, Matt. 5:17-19, Mark 13:31); but when all shall be written correctly; ALL, which from the first I have uttered concerning them SHALL CONCUR (John 10:35; Sura 15:9-10).
104:10 Another secret also I point out. To the righteous and the wise shall be given Books of joy, of integrity, and of great Wisdom. To them shall Books be given (Rev. 10:7-10, Rev. 2:17), in which they shall believe (and Live by);
104:11 And in which they shall rejoice. And all the righteous shall be rewarded, who from these (Books) shall acquire the Knowledge of The Straight Way (Deut. 31:29, Matt. 7:13-14, John 14:6, Rev. 14:1-4, Sura 6:153-161).

Sura 39:23. "I AM" has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book (Sura 9:111), CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften (Ezek. 36:26) to the celebration of "I AM"'s praises (Prov. 1:7; 9:10). Such is the Guidance from "I AM": He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as "I AM" leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

This is how and why ANY additions or alterations made to the Bible or the Koran stick out like a sore thumb, and how we can know when something has been removed or changed.

The Holy Scriptures have yet another fail-safe built into them to prove themselves, and to leave no doubt of their off-world, spiritual origin: do specifically as instructed, and one will see the results for themselves.

John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 IF any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Sura 5:102. The Messenger's duty is only to proclaim (the Message)(John 7:16-17). But "I AM" knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

IT'S THE MESSAGE (TRUTH) FROM GOD THAT MATTERS, NOT WHO DELIVERS IT.

And the ONLY Way to test that truth is to LIVE IT and see for yourself whether it works.
 

A Freeman

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Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,736
@A Freeman and @pescatarian09 , I got your point but based on your understanding, what kind of response do you think that prophet Muhammad would get if he had engaged in this activity?
Would you please clarify what "activity" you're referencing?

Do you mean what response from the people in positions of authority would be expected if Muhammad followed The Law that God gave us (found in the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)? Because that's exactly what Muhammad was striving to do, just as all of God's prophets, apostles/messengers did before him. And the reaction by the political leaders (of the church and state), whose lies are exposed by the truth -- as well as the overwhelming majority of the public, who believe/fear their political leaders instead of God -- has, throughout history, always been the same: to persecute, injure and/or murder those whom God has sent, because most on this planet have no love for the truth.

Matthew 21:31-46
21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent His servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took His servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, He sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all He sent unto them His son, saying, They will respect my Son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:40 When the Lord therefore of the Vineyard cometh, what will He do unto those husbandmen?
21:41
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [His] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render Him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them,
Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the Corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (the "10 lost tribes" - the "
House of Israel").
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this Stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

21:45 And when the chief priests and politicians had heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them.
21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a Prophet.

If you see an issue here, how are you going explain the controversy?
What issue please? And what controversy?

"Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point(since they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). What kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders here? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? "
If the above quote is properly understood, its reasoning is fundamentally flawed. THE Authority/Intelligence (Source of all true Wisdom and Power) is our Creator (God), Who is NOT a "Jew", nor a "Christian", nor a "Muslim" (nor a member of any other organized religion), ALL of which are only made-up terms (misnomers really) used by the corporate, satanic organized religions to deceive their unwitting(?) victims.

Why would anyone go to a human, particularly one of the leaders of one of Satan's religions, to verify whether something spiritual is from God please? Would you go to fish market to buy clothes? Or seek the advice of a known criminal to learn how to be a law-abiding citizen?

You said you got the point of what was previously shared, but it doesn't sound like you did, because the only way to verify a message is from God is to follow His COMMANDments, given to us in His Law (The Law), so that He can answer those questions DIRECTLY. The Law was given to us to protect us from all of this evil and to set and keep us free. The Law does that by giving us all direct and instant access to God, because the ONLY Way He can be approached is by turning to Him through obedience. How else could He guide us in the moment, every single moment of our lives, if we don't do what He says?
 
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DanRaleigh

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@A Freeman , I didn't get a good picture about your belief on Christianity. So, before I answering your questions, can I know whether you are implying that Christianity people follow around the world is created by Satan?
 

Tidal

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Certainly some so-called "christian" sects such as Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons etc have got satan's fingerprints all over them, but they can't get under Jesus's radar, he said-
"Not all who call me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)
 
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