Does God have a Church?

[phipps]

I've been called a legalist not once in this forum and recently on this thread for suggesting we do exactly as the Word of God asks us to. I also mention we can't do any of it on our own, we need Christ in order to obey Him.

In the article below it explains better than I can what obedience is in the Bible, and why its not legalism to obey God as he asks us to.

Obedience is legalism . . . wait, that’s faith.

There is a story in Genesis 4 that turns the modern idea of legalism on its head.

It’s the story of Cain and Abel.

Abel did everything God asked, the way God asked him to do it. He brought an offering of death that foretold Jesus’ atoning sacrifice.

Cain also worshipped. He built an altar. He brought a sacrifice. But not as God asked.

Hebrews 11 records the story in this way: “By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks” (verse 4).

The issue wasn’t merely that Cain didn’t get the details right—that he just brought the wrong thing. Cain stopped living a life of faith. He stopped trusting that the only way to be saved is through the death of a substitute.

They both brought an offering. The difference is simple yet profound: Cain brought what he thought would be good enough.

When God doesn’t accept Cain’s offering, Cain gets angry. Cain feels God owes him acceptance. Cain’s mentality is legalism. He is 100 per cent trying to work his way to being accepted.

Legalism is salvation by calculation. It’s calculating what is the least I need to do to please God—to be saved. Legalism is a mindset that says, “It’s good enough”; to assume that God should be happy that I’ve given Him anything at all; to think that I don’t actually need to give Him what He’s asked for.

Faith is not calculating what’s “enough”. Faith simply chooses to say, “I acknowledge I don’t know what’s right and wrong. I have no power to conquer the devil, to redeem myself.”

Faith submits. Faith says, “God said it, so I’ll do it.” Faith is the posture of acknowledging that God is so much beyond us. We are so undeserving. We’d be ridiculous to refuse to do anything God asks of us.

Being more faithful in keeping the Sabbath, paying tithe and honouring marriage—these aren’t acts of legalism. The person of faith will do what God asks because they trust that God knows best, He is all and they assume an attitude of submission. That’s faith.

I’m tired of being accused of legalism regarding my observance of the Sabbath. Especially by Sunday keepers.

Keeping the Sabbath is an act of faith.

It’s easier to keep Sunday in today’s world. Social and economic pressures of work and sports make Sunday the easier option. By far.

But going to church on Sunday or just any day is more like legalism. It’s the mentality of “This is good enough”—even though the Bible explicitly says to keep the seventh day holy.

Legalism is functioning through calculating “what is enough?”

But the gospel teaches that only death is enough.

There are no calculations in the gospel of Jesus Christ. You and I can’t fix this, so Jesus had to say, “I’m going to come as a human and die to defeat the devil, sin and death”, (see Genesis 3:15).

Our role is to take a position of faith, believing that anything God promises is true, 100 per cent sure. So we just submit to it.

The moment we ask ourselves, “What will be enough?”, we are at risk of falling into legalism.

I see within myself the spirit of Cain. I look at the priority I place on my pastoral work: my sermon preparation, visitation and Bible study. They all just have to fit in around the rest of life.

“How much time have I got left for this?” I find myself calculating and bargaining regarding the very thing that I’ve given my life to God for, in response to His saving grace and calling on my life.

How often do we find ourselves saying, “This is good enough” when it comes to the things of God?

If my good deeds are filthy rags, what hope do I have in calculating what’s good enough? My sermon, my prayer, my generosity, my helping hand—if my good deeds are as filthy rags, what hope do I have in calculating?

The only calculation that means anything is to ask, “Will I give my whole life to God?” The only thing we can do if we are going to be people of faith is to submit it all.

I cannot do enough. I cannot perform. I can’t calculate what’s good enough. Nothing is good enough.

The act of coming to Him in faith looks like doing things the way He’s asked me to. That’s faith; not an arbitrary belief. Faith is doing what Abel did—bringing our offering the way God asked (see Hebrews 11:4).

The gospel frees us; it brings hope. The gospel is absolute liberation—but only when you give it all. Unless you give it all, you’re constantly going through this calculation of “what’s good enough?”

Unless we give it all, we are like Cain. We say, “I know God says this, but that is all I am willing to bring.” Our heart isn’t completely in it.

God calls us to be people of faith; to strive to follow God in everything we do.

Faith is total submission and trust of what God has asked. Anything else is legalism.

Abel submitted. Cain calculated.

Abel was a man of faith. Cain was a legalist.

God doesn’t accept a calculating faith. A faith of submission is acceptable to God.

Let’s be people of faith. Submit to the Lord; don’t calculate what is good enough. Sure, we struggle and sometimes fall. We need the forgiving grace of Jesus. But our posture is not one of legalistic calculation of the bare minimum required; it is one of total submission. That’s faith.

Link.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I showed you directly from scripture that when the book of James says we should keep the whole law, it meant the ten commandments. He even mentions some of them. Let me repost those verses including verse 10:

James 2:10-12, "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." James did not mean all 613 laws found in the Bible because many of them became obsolete including ceremonial laws as you know.

Ok, so when you are saying to "follow the law" you mean to follow the 10 commandments (which i believe Christians do believe, with the exception of keeping the Sabbath), not "everything in the first 5 books of the Bible" as stated by a different poster in regards to "follow the law".

How should we determine whether a law should or should not be kept today? Like someone wrote, "A biblical law should be kept to the extent that its principle can be applied unless the New Testament removes the reason for its application."

But who is this "someone"? That's what i was referring to regarding "traditions of men". Who is this person that we are trusting to interpret and reason for us, to teach us which parts of hygiene, moral or diatary laws are still applicable and which are not?

The health laws have never been done away with because we all still need to be healthy. We now know scientifically that a good diet and good hygiene prevent disease. We have and are armed with more information about health than the Israelites were thousands of years ago.

I agree that the laws were given to preserve our health.

However, it is not just health and dietary laws that help preserve our health. Some of those that can be said to fall into the "cultural" category may also be health related.

For example, i mentioned tattos a few posts ago. While some could make the claim that it was a cultural thing to separated God's people from the pagans, there could also be an argument made that the ink is toxic to the body, and the area prone to infection. Yet would those who say we should keep the diatary laws also say we are should adhere to the prohibition on tattoos and cuttings of the flesh?

Or the mixed clothing materials. I haven't delved too deeply into the topic, but from what i understand certain clothing materials are more likely to result in cancer or health problems than others. It is not unfeasable that this law would also apply today, not just dietary laws.

Plus these health laws were followed in the New Testament. The apostles told the Gentiles not to consume blood and not to eat meat of strangled animals whose blood had not been drained because animals that have been strangled are not drained of the blood properly. Because God banned us from eating blood in the health laws (Leviticus 3:17, 7:22-27) .

I agree that the New Testament says to not eat blood or the strangled.

Its good that the dietary laws are not hard for you to keep. However many struggle even after they find out the truth about dietary laws. Especially if they've been eating and enjoying certain foods all their lives. I think in all things we should not try and do change on our own and seek guidance from God.

My intention was not to boast about my ability to adhere to the dietary laws. What i meant to communicate was that choosing what to put in one's mouth is easier, given modern life, than avoiding mixed material clothing (althouh not impossible), or avoiding food that was grown in a mixed field, for example.

So i was just commenting on the fact that i often see adherence to dietary laws is emphasized, but not other aspects of the law (not including ceremonial).

Definitely agree about seeking guidance from God. I suppose it's just that we (my husband and i) refer to it as our convictions rather than it being imposed upon all believers.

I have never stated that its a matter of damnation either. We cannot for example eat our way into heaven. We are not saved by works. Only acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour can do that

I agree.

However the Bible does warn us of the consequences of breaking God's law and not following His principles if we don't repent and come to Him.

I suppose that is where the concept of "sinning unto death " comes in. Once having put out trust fully on Jesus Christ, continuing to live in a sinful manner can absolutely have consequences in this life, sometimes fatal. But i dont believe we lose our salvation, just that there's consequences, up to and including loss of life.

As we grow in Christ our wills will gradually harmonise with His including following the civil and moral laws, health laws which include diet, hygiene and sexual that are still applicable in the New Covenant.

Yes. I believe that is where the personal convictions part comes in. The more i read and studied the Bible, the more i knew which things were no longer permissible for me. But also that different people are convicted of different things and that i am not to "judge another man's servant" (Romans14:4)

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Ok, so when you are saying to "follow the law" you mean to follow the 10 commandments (which i believe Christians do believe, with the exception of keeping the Sabbath), not "everything in the first 5 books of the Bible" as stated by a different poster in regards to "follow the law".

I posted in my previous post to you that the ten commandments were/are the basis of all other commandments in the Bible. So civil/moral, health etc fall under the ten commandments. For example sexual laws that forbid fornication, homosexuality, incest, bestiality written of in Leviticus 18 are still sins and God still finds them abominable I'm sure you'll agree. If we break any of those commandments we are breaking the 7th commandment of adultery in the ten commandments. As I explained the punishments and some of the social and cultural aspects to those laws are not applicable but its still wrong to do those things.

And while most Christians do no follow the Sabbath, a minority do and always have done throughout the ages. I know I keep saying this but biblically its always the minority that have the truth of God. Its never with the majority. That is why the way to hell is broad and wide and the way to heaven is narrow and few find it (Matthew 7:13-14).

But who is this "someone"? That's what i was referring to regarding "traditions of men". Who is this person that we are trusting to interpret and reason for us, to teach us which parts of hygiene, moral or diatary laws are still applicable and which are not?

I forget his/her name but they are right. Just because someone said somethings not written in the Bible doesn't mean they are wrong. God created us with intellect and powers of reasoning. It has to harmonise with God's Word. The Bible tell us there will be prophets in the end time. We are told to test to see if what they teach is biblical and not just trust anyone at hand without knowing if their message is true or not. The person is right because in the Bible there is an Old and New Covenant and many things of the Old Covenant became obsolete like ceremonial law. However as I posted the sexual laws are still applicable to this day as are the health laws because the New Covenant/Testament did not remove reason for their application. That harmonises with God's Word.

I agree that the laws were given to preserve our health.

All the laws God gave His people were for their benefit. Some were for the time, others still apply to us to this day and until Jesus returns.

However, it is not just health and dietary laws that help preserve our health. Some of those that can be said to fall into the "cultural" category may also be health related.

Agree.

For example, i mentioned tattos a few posts ago. While some could make the claim that it was a cultural thing to separated God's people from the pagans, there could also be an argument made that the ink is toxic to the body, and the area prone to infection. Yet would those who say we should keep the diatary laws also say we are should adhere to the prohibition on tattoos and cuttings of the flesh?

Or the mixed clothing materials. I haven't delved too deeply into the topic, but from what i understand certain clothing materials are more likely to result in cancer or health problems than others. It is not unfeasable that this law would also apply today, not just dietary laws.

I did not say the law of mixed clothing especially animal and plant material is not feasible today. Nor did I say or imply that only dietary or health laws preserve our health. In fact I mentioned how God is concerned about our overall health whether it be physical, mental or spiritual. I can't discuss everything here that is detrimental to our health in the Bible. That would be too long winded.

However some Christians here have a problem with the diet laws because their diets don't go hand in hand with the biblical one. They don't have a problem with the sexual laws for example in the Old Testament because they agree with them. The same applies to the Sabbath commandment. They have no problem with nine out of the ten commandments but call me a legalist for saying as the Bible does that we are to obey all ten commandments not just nine.

For them its based on what they do and agree with and if the Bible disagrees with what they do, then they will choose their doctrines over the Word of God. And if I say that's wrong then I am judgemental and legalist.

I agree that the New Testament says to not eat blood or the strangled.

Its part of the health laws.

My intention was not to boast about my ability to adhere to the dietary laws. What i meant to communicate was that choosing what to put in one's mouth is easier, given modern life, than avoiding mixed material clothing (althouh not impossible), or avoiding food that was grown in a mixed field, for example.

So i was just commenting on the fact that i often see adherence to dietary laws is emphasized, but not other aspects of the law (not including ceremonial).

Definitely agree about seeking guidance from God. I suppose it's just that we (my husband and i) refer to it as our convictions rather than it being imposed upon all believers.

I know you weren't boasting but avoiding mixed material which involve plant and animal material as mentioned in the Bible is actually easy to avoid. Most material manufacturers don't mix those two together.

Other aspects of other laws are emphasised in my church. Here I emphasise the ten commandment law and full obedience of which people have been very rude to me about. One person actually said I belong to a cult for saying such things as the Bible does.

Some Christians make a big deal about the diet laws because they don;'t follow them and maybe had never even heard of them but all God's laws are important and for our benefit especially the ten commandment law.

Of course we have to be convicted and as the Holy Spirit reveals certain God's truths to us Jesus gives us the power to obey Him if we are willing to.

I suppose that is where the concept of "sinning unto death " comes in. Once having put out trust fully on Jesus Christ, continuing to live in a sinful manner can absolutely have consequences in this life, sometimes fatal. But i dont believe we lose our salvation, just that there's consequences, up to and including loss of life.

We can and do have consequences from some of our sins in this life but more than that all those who sin and do not repent will lose their lives eternally and some of them will have been saved at one point in their lives.

What your talking about is the doctrine of once saved always saved. It is a false doctrine that is not based in the Bible at all. In the Bible we are taught that we all have free will whether we are saved or not. So saved people can and sadly do fall from salvation of their own free will. They can at any point in their lives start resisting God’s grace. They can and stop listening to the Holy Spirit. I'll give you an example that I've used before.

Suppose a Christian who was once saved later on becomes an atheist or Satanist, are they still saved? Some Christians who believe in osas will say "well if that happens then they weren't 'really' saved in the first place." But 2 Peter 2:20-22 tells us, "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” You can't get much clearer than that! Saved people can choose to stop being saved according to these verses and they say it would have been better if the person had never been saved than to lose their faith after having known what it feels like to be saved. They compare it to a dog going back to its own vomit and the rest.

Hebrews 10:26-27 says, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

Then there is the book of life. The Bible tells us that people's names can be removed from the book of life. The book of life has the names of the saved (Daniel 12:1, Luke 10:20, Philippians 4:3, Revelation 17:8). So if names can be removed from it, then the saved can lose their salvation (Psalm 69:28, Revelation 13:8, 21:27).

When we surrender our lives to Jesus we are saved and stay saved so long as we continue to surrender our lives to him every day. Jesus said to those who were professing to believe in Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My DISCIPLES indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31-32). Jesus is saying you can identify His disciples by the fact that they continue in His word, and are therefore sanctified in the process.

Yes. I believe that is where the personal convictions part comes in. The more i read and studied the Bible, the more i knew which things were no longer permissible for me. But also that different people are convicted of different things and that i am not to "judge another man's servant" (Romans14:4)

There is only one truth to any subject in the Bible. One of the things the Holy spirit does is lead us into God's truth according to His Word. He will convict us at different times but it will always be the truth according to God's Word if we are willing to know the truth.

Its not judging either to tell God's truth. I've been accused of this here as well. Do you think Jesus and the apostles were judging people when they corrected them and told them the truth of God according to His Word? They weren't. As people we don't like being told we are wrong. Even little kids hate being corrected. However if we want to grow in Christ as Christians we have to accept that we are sinful and many things we do in our lives (even those we thought were right) are wrong and not in harmony with God's Word. The Holy Spirit leads us to this realisation, then He leads us to realise we need a Saviour to cleanse us of our sin once we repent, and to walk with Him daily in our lives.

 

[phipps]

The Gift of Prophecy for God's Last Day Church.

In the book of Revelation, God gave us a picture of His true Church in our time, also called the remnant:

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17).

The remnant keeps the commandments of God, and the law is therefore restored in its fullness. As prophets of God need to live and speak in harmony with God's law, the true gift of prophecy can only occur if the law forms an integral part of the theology of the prophet. One of the identifying features of the remnant of God is the Spirit of Prophecy. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Revelation 19:10).

In Matthew 24:23-25, Christ warns against false prophets in the last days who will mislead God's people. As we are also admonished to test the spirits and to hold on to what is good, it is vital that we apply the criteria provided to test the prophets in our time.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1)

Tests of a True Prophet.

I will list ten, and I will give some texts.

If a person is a true prophet, they will tell the truth. The Bible says that it is impossible for God to lie. They will make predictions that come true, according to Jeremiah 28:9.

A true prophet will prophesy in the Lord’s name, 2 Peter 1:21.

A true prophet will not give some private interpretation of Scripture, 2 Peter 1:20.

A true prophet will point out the sins of the people of God, Isaiah 58:1. If a person is a true prophet, they will not just come to you with some lovey-dovey message and never tell you about your character defects, which need to be changed. That is a hard test for many so-called prophets to pass.

A true prophet will warn God’s people of coming judgment, Isaiah 24:20-21 would be one example.

A true prophet will build up, or edify, the church. They will not tear it apart, 1 Corinthians 14:3-4.

A true prophet will teach in harmony with preceding prophets and with the Law of God, Isaiah 8:20 says, “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word,…there is no light in them.” This is one of the most important ones of all, and many so-called prophets cannot pass this test.

A true prophet will recognize the incarnation that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, 1 John 4:1-3. This is an exceedingly important test, also. Many so-called prophets cannot pass this one either.

A true prophet will not lead people into some kind of fanaticism, some crazy idea that you find out too late has ruined your health, or your family, or something else in your life. They must have good fruit. When you listen to what a true prophet says, you will have good results in your life.

A true Bible prophet must have visions and dreams—period. That is what the Bible says. “Then He said, “hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream" (Numbers 12:6). Notice, if anyone claims to be a prophet, the Lord says if he or she is really a prophet He will make Himself manifest to that person. How? In a vision and in a dream.

Now what happens to a prophet when they are in vision? The book of Daniel gives us a fuller description of a prophet in vision than any other place in the Bible, although there are a few other descriptions. The most complete description of a prophet in vision is in Daniel 10:7. Daniel gives the record of this vision. He says, “And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men that were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.”

So the other men realized that something supernatural was happening. That is what occurs when a prophet is in vision. What is this supernatural thing? Look what it says in Daniel 10:8. “…I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my vigor was turned to frailty in me, and I retained no strength.”

Continuing in verse 9 we read, “Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. Suddenly, a hand touched me.…” Then he receives instruction from the angel about the latter day; and then it says, “And suddenly, one having the likeness of the sons of men (That is Jesus Christ) touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to Him who stood before me, ‘My Lord, because of the vision my sorrows have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. For how can this servant of my Lord talk with you, my Lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me’” (Daniel 10:16-17).

A Prophet in Vision, Does not Breathe.

Daniel says, “How can I talk to You Lord, when I am not breathing? There is no breath left in me.” You know, if you took a mirror right now, and if you put this mirror right in front of your face and speak, moisture will gather on the mirror, because when you talk the air is coming out of your mouth. No mention is made of the restoration of breathing while in vision. The prophet is sustained by God while in vision. It is only one of the ten signs, but it is a significant one. A prophet in vision does not breathe. That is a supernatural experience. This is something that is hard to fake.

"Do not despise prophecies, test all things; hold fast what is good" (1Thessalonians 5:20-21).

A true prophet of God will meet all the Biblical criteria of a prophet. These tests can be applied to prophets to determine whether they are genuine or not. Many of these tests can be individually counterfeited, but collectively, they provide an impassable barrier to false prophets. False prophets can quote Scripture or have some of their prophecies come true, but they can still be false prophets—subtly using every opportunity to lead God's people astray.

 

[phipps]

The Recent History of the Gift of Prophecy.

After the death of the apostles, prophets enjoyed respect in many circles until 300 AD, but the decline of spirituality in the Church and the resulting apostasy led to a diminishing of both the presence and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. At the same time, false prophets caused a loss of confidence in the prophetic gift.

The decline of the prophetic gift during certain periods of Church history did not mean that God had withdrawn the gift permanently. The Bible indicates that as the end approaches, this gift will be present to assist the Church through these difficult times. More than that, Scripture even points to an increased activity of this gift.

Before the First Advent of Christ, God gave the gift of prophecy to John the Baptist to prepare the way for His coming. In a similar way, the prophetic gift must be restored before the Second Advent, so that everyone will have the opportunity to prepare to meet their Saviour.

Christ mentions the rise of false prophets as one of the signs that His coming is near (Matthew 24:11, 24). If there were to be no true prophets during the time of the end, Christ would not have warned against anyone claiming that gift. His warning against false prophets implies that there would be true prophets as well.

 

[phipps]