Does God have a Church?

[phipps]

Postmillennial Return of Christ.

Summary: After the millennium, Jesus will come to Earth and bring the final judgment.

After the millennium, once God's judgments have been verified by His people, Christ will return to the earth to execute final judgment on those who rejected His truth. He will take back what is rightfully His. Then, the kingdom will be given to His faithful ones—the ones that have been in heaven for a thousand years.

The prophet Zechariah describes the coming of the Lord with all His people, and how the feet of the Lord touch the earth to create a great plain. This will not happen at the Second Coming (see Zechariah 14:4-5).

This ancient prophecy made to literal Israel could have had its fulfillment in Israel of old if they had been obedient to God. But when the Jews rejected the Messiah, the old covenant promises were transferred from literal Israel to spiritual Israel, which is the Church. The essence of the prophecy in Zechariah thus still applies and will reach its final fulfillment in the return of Christ after the millennium.

The New Jerusalem will then descend from heaven:
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Revelation 21:2).

From the safety of the city, the redeemed will then witness the final events that finalize the great controversy between Christ and Satan.


Link.

 

[phipps]

The Resurrection of those who Reject God.

Summary: When the millennium ends, those who rebelled against God will be resurrected, and the final battle takes place between Satan and God.

Satan Freed at the Resurrection of the Rejecters of God

Revelation 20:7-9, "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them."

Chains of circumstances will bind Satan when the rejecters of God are slain. For a thousand years, Satan and his evil angels will be trapped on the empty earth, with nothing to do but to contemplate the results of their chosen path. The rebellious people will come back to life when the thousand years was over (Revelation 20:5).

The resurrection of the rebellious of all ages will loose Satan's chains of circumstances, and he will spurn on the resurrected millions to take the Holy City (the New Jerusalem), which will come down from heaven, in one final effort to retain power (See Zechariah 14:4-5, Revelation 21:2,10).

God fights the Final Battle

In Ezekiel 38:2 and 39:6, Gog the king of Magog is described as an enemy of God's people. He is the leader of the host that would attack restored Israel (Ezekiel 38:2, 14-19), but he will meet his end “after many days” (Ezekiel 38:8).

“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord GOD, “that My fury will show in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel'” (Ezekiel 38:18-19).

God will destroy Gog. God shows in this prophecy that Israel does not battle at all. Gog stands as a symbol of the leader of rebellion—Satan himself.

At the end of time, God will permit the final act of rebellion (the attack on the New Jerusalem) by Satan, his hosts, and the resurrected people who had turned away from God. He will do this to dispel any lingering doubt that the unrighteous—those in opposition to God and His people—are evil. Good and evil will stand opposite each other: God's people within the city, Satan's people without.


Link.

 

[phipps]

The Crowning of Christ and the Final Judgment.

Summary: Christ is crowned and the final judgment takes place. Everyone will have a chance to learn why they receive their judgment.

Revelation 20:12, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged by the things which were written in the books, according to their works."

When the books are opened, each person will see their life pass before them, and with unmistakable clarity they will see the great mercy they have rejected. They will come to a final realization of the great effort heaven has made on their behalf to do everything possible to save them, and they will see the many times they have spurned the efforts of heaven.

They will realize that they have indeed chosen this end, wilfully and knowingly. Each act of defiance, each rejection of God's grace, will be made apparent. The consequences of these choices are eternal (Hebrews 6:2). Across the surface of the earth, every knee will bow. All thoughts of rebellion and victory will fade (Romans 14:11-12, Isaiah 45:22-24).

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and of things in earth, and of things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10-11).

This is the final coronation of the Son of God. The final judgment will then take place:

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:11-15).

The final sentence is death:

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Those people who choose to believe Satan rather than God (John 8:45) have had their characters formed according to their master. They would never be happy among the people of God where there is no room for selfishness. The atmosphere that permeates heaven is an atmosphere of self-sacrifice and joy.

As this realization falls upon those who have spurned God, they all will accept God's judgments as true and just.

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” (Revelation 5:12-13).

Satan's allegations against God and His government will be proved groundless. Christ will stand vindicated and ready to perform his "strange act” (Isaiah 28:21).


Link.

 

[HansConsciousness]

I'm well aware.
What I don't know is who suggested the terms should be equated? It wasn't I, Monsieur.

Yes. It wasn't you/me/us but definitely someone or some-group somewhere in the past timeline probably did either with nefarious motives or may be just ignorantly (because even they did not had real/practical access to within)?!

I also do not know if you are interested in answers from others-- or if you are looking only for validation (or maybe propagation) of your own.
Either way...

Please do not misunderstand me. I request that your kind self cut me some slack pls, as English isn't my native language. And yes I am interested in obtaining (logic induced) words and thoughts from other good fellow human beings probably to have a rationale discussion and may be a mild agreement on any mutual ground? Or may agree to disagree too, which also is wholeheartedly admissible.

As strange as it may seem to you, God-- or TheCreator, as you call Him-- is more than capable of keeping the people He created alive without bodily inhabiting them. People are permitted to live their own will, if they like.

I concur, hon'ble mademoiselle.
And imho, most definitely, out of the free will bestowed upon ALL human beings. Which is amazingly crazy in my personal opinion [=

 

[Alanantic]

What isn't God? Where do you draw the line? Spirit, the "Ghost in the Machine", penetrates Everything. Your sense of self...that's God. We all have that God spark within.

"God sleeps in the rocks, stirs in the plants, dreams in the animals, and finally awakens in man." -- Vedic Quote

 

[phipps]

The Punishment for those who Reject God

Summary: The prophet Malachi wrote about what would happen to those who reject God at the end of time.

After Christ is crowned and the New Jerusalem comes down, Satan and his followers will be destroyed by fire (Revelation 20:9-15). This is known in the Bible as the second death (Revelation 20:14-15). This is the death that Jesus died to save us from.

“For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch...
You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the LORD of hosts (Malachi 4:1,3).

In Malachi, the root is Satan and the branches are his followers. Those who have rejected God will be burnt to ashes and the fire will consume them until they are no more.

Satan and his host will be destroyed, and the great controversy will finally end. The source of the pain and sadness this world has known for more than six millennia will be over, and the peace and happiness that God intended for His creation in Eden will be realized. The redeemed ones will finally be able to pick up where Adam and Eve left off, and thus begin an entirely new and wonderful story—a story “which goes on forever; in which every chapter is better than the one before.” C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle, (New York: Harper Collins, 1984).


Link.

 

[phipps]

The Earth Made New

Summary: The earth will be cleansed with fire, and it will become the eternal home of God's people.

The fire that will destroy Satan's followers will also cleanse the earth:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells" (2 Peter 3:10-13).

God will restore the earth to its original beauty, making the earth new:

"And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful” (Revelation 21:3-5).

God's home will be among His people. The sorrows of the world will be passed away and will no longer come to mind:

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying" (Isaiah 65:17-19).

The kingdom of God will be restored. The new earth will be the final home of those who choose God's way.

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's; But the earth He has given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:16).

Link.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Since we've already gone of topic, I feel I should post about about going to Church as well. As Christians we should go to Church and meet with other Christians (I mention the reasons why in this post on my thread "Does God have a Church?").

I decided to respond to you here to avoid threadjacking the other thread, if you dont mind.

its important to mention that Christians should belong and go to a church

I agree. But everyone's situation is not equal.

We tried to make it work. As God knows everything, He knows the efforts we made and the difficulties encountered. We tried multiple alternate solutions, and none worked.

There will be many people in heaven who were not be affiliated with any particular church—or for some reason could not attend church regularly.

I think this means you would agree with my point?

When someone lives as a hermit from society, he or she tends to become eccentric. Isolating oneself from others begins to affect the mind; the brain atrophies. You become socially inept. In the same way, it’s important for Christians to be social with fellow believers in corporate worship and gatherings to avoid becoming spiritually eccentric and inept.

Some of us are more introverted and socially awkward, some people are naturally exteoverted and love to socialize.

God did not make us all the same for a reason. While some one more extroverted may be great at this socializing thing, often times they struggle with more solitary pursuits like personal Bible study. Conversely, those of us who are intorverted may not find it difficult to study the Bible for hours a day, but will find social interactions to be draining and stressful.

I would strongly disagree that my brain has atrophied from reading the Bible on my own.

And by saying that we "become eccentric " out on our own, how is that not saying that in a group people just tend towards conformity and lack of individuality?

 

[Wigi]

Some of us are more introverted and socially awkward, some people are naturally exteoverted and love to socialize.

God did not make us all the same for a reason. While some one more extroverted may be great at this socializing thing, often times they struggle with more solitary pursuits like personal Bible study. Conversely, those of us who are intorverted may not find it difficult to study the Bible for hours a day, but will find social interactions to be draining and stressful.

^This,

Unfortunately too many Christians make it difficult for people unable to socialize to feel they belong to be here. Thankfully Jesus hasn't given a long list of conditions before He selected His disciples. Thankfully Moses wasn't selected because he was a charismatic speaker. Thankfully God is not reasoning like us or many would be just doomed by design.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

I decided to respond to you here to avoid threadjacking the other thread, if you dont mind.

I don't mind.

I agree. But everyone's situation is not equal.

Agree, our situations are not all the same.

We tried to make it work. As God knows everything, He knows the efforts we made and the difficulties encountered. We tried multiple alternate solutions, and none worked.

True, its about your relationship with God and He will know better than anyone the difficulties you've encountered.

I think this means you would agree with my point?

I would if I knew your reasons for not going to Church (I'm not suggesting you should tell them to me).

Some of us are more introverted and socially awkward, some people are naturally exteoverted and love to socialize.

Agree. I am introverted so I know that I like socialising just not for long and I also prefer smaller groups. Socialising is good for everyone just on different levels. For example at my church we spend all day at church on the sabbath. We have programs in the morning, afternoon and evening and we end sabbath together. Sometimes that's too much for me and I leave church in the afternoon to be alone because I've had enough and I'm drained. But I still managed to meet people, had Bible study, listened to a sermon and had lunch.

God did not make us all the same for a reason. While some one more extroverted may be great at this socializing thing, often times they struggle with more solitary pursuits like personal Bible study. Conversely, those of us who are intorverted may not find it difficult to study the Bible for hours a day, but will find social interactions to be draining and stressful.

Agree but while we have to study the Bible for ourselves to grow and get closer in our personal relationship with God, it is not good to study the Bible by ourselves all the time.

I would strongly disagree that my brain has atrophied from reading the Bible on my own.

This was talking about a more severe situation of course. As I said above I know studying the Bible on our own is good for us and we need it in our daily personal time with God but what if we don't understand a passage or do not know the background to something and have more questions that answers, what do we do? This is where Bible group study would help. I know it has helped me a lot. We all have different levels of knowledge of the Bible and some people understand certain biblical subjects more than others. I know in some Christian denominations they do not have Bible study in Church but in my church we do and I have always found them very helpful and eye opening. We also have small groups that meet to do Bible study one day during the week.

And by saying that we "become eccentric " out on our own, how is that not saying that in a group people just tend towards conformity and lack of individuality?

Again it was talking about a more severe situation but yes there is a risk of conforming and losing individuality depending on the church one attends. Personally I don't conform to what people are doing even when I think its wrong. Maybe when I was younger I would but not at my age. Luckily I belong to a good church where I could not conform and lose my individuality.

One of the ways we get to know God is by talking to like minded people. People who also love and want to get to know God and get closer to Him. Sometimes God communicates to us through these people too.

Also going to church and meeting people can be good for us because we can motivate and encourage one another, "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:24-25).

We miss out on a lot when we don't go to church whether through unavoidable circumstances or by choice. Going to church can be helpful in promoting spiritual growth and encouraging dedication to God and His church. Church plays a vital role in our relationship with God and others, in that we learn about God through the speaker and fellow believers. The early church knew this and we read about it in the Bible.

In the Bible we are saved into the body of Christ which is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). In Acts 2, the Bible says, “The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” When we are baptized, we become part of Christ’s body and enter into the church (1 Corinthians 12:20).

In heaven/new earth we will also come together and worship on the sabbath for all eternity (Isaiah 66:23).

Where we can, let us follow Christ's example and go to church on the sabbath.

 

[phipps]

^This,

Unfortunately too many Christians make it difficult for people unable to socialize to feel they belong to be here. Thankfully Jesus hasn't given a long list of conditions before He selected His disciples. Thankfully Moses wasn't selected because he was a charismatic speaker. Thankfully God is not reasoning like us or many would be just doomed by design.

Moses' example is a good one for going to church. He wasn't a good speaker or charismatic as his brother Aaron. So God used Aaron to speak in Moses' stead but Moses was still the leader. Moses still had to lead His people and be with them. I think Moses became a better speaker later as he got used to His position as leader. No one knows us better than God and He will find a solution for whatever situation we face. All we have to do is pray and ask for His help.

 

[Wigi]

Moses' example is a good one for going to church. He wasn't a good speaker or charismatic as his brother Aaron. So God used Aaron to speak in Moses' stead but Moses was still the leader. Moses still had to lead His people and be with them. I think Moses became a better speaker later as he got used to His position as leader. No one knows us better than God and He will find a solution for whatever situation we face. All we have to do is pray and ask for His help.

Maybe blunt honesty is a flaw that i have and I hope you take it kindly but I think at times you're making the religious mistake of becoming extremely legalistic on non-essential matters because that is something that worked for you.
We're all at different stages in our spiritual walk and sometimes it's much more complicated than "you have to be physically at the church, and it has to happen saturdays else it's the work of the devil".
We have to take into account the spirit of the scriptures and not just be rigid like the pharisees unable to rejoice that Jesus healed someone on sabbath day.

And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Luke 13:13‭-‬14

I always pray I never become like this to be honest.
To take another example, Jesus washed the feet of His disciples but we all can agree that physical churches literally not washing the feet of their members aren't violating Jesus commands because the lesson here is that we have to take care of each others whenever we're gathered. Not solely because we attend the right church, the right denomination, at the right place, at the right time. I'm sorry I don't believe God is exclusive toward those unable to do 100% of what was prescribed.

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
2 Corinthians 3:5‭-‬6

I totally agree it's something we have to pray for though.

 

[phipps]

@Wigi

Maybe blunt honesty is a flaw that i have and I hope you take it kindly but I think at times you're making the religious mistake of becoming extremely legalistic on non-essential matters because that is something that worked for you.

I hope you don't mind my bluntness either but then I always am. I am not now nor have I ever been legalistic but if you think being a legalist means believing in the Law of God and obeying it as the Bible tells us to, then in that case I am a legalist and every Christian ought to be a one! And nothing about the Bible is non essential either.

We're all at different stages in our spiritual walk and sometimes it's much more complicated than "you have to be physically at the church, and it has to happen saturdays else it's the work of the devil".

It is not me who says we have to obey the Sabbath commandment, its God. In fact the Bible makes it clear we have to obey all the commandments of God. Its some Christians who think they can pick and choose what commandments they should obey yet they claim to adhere to the Word of God that says otherwise. Nor have I said or implied that if you don't go to Church on Saturday which is the seventh day of the week and is the day God blessed for us to spend with and focus on Him, its the work of the devil.

It is the work of the devil if we know about it and reject it. That is the truth of the Bible and I know some people struggle with me telling the truth of the Bible but I am not going to soften what I say to appease people. Even when I myself have not always observed the sabbath as I should have. The truth won't change whatever we choose to do or believe.

We have to take into account the spirit of the scriptures and not just be rigid like the pharisees unable to rejoice that Jesus healed someone on sabbath day.


And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Luke 13:13‭-‬14

Jesus disagreed with the Pharisees about what should be done on the Sabbath not about the day. A day He Himself observed every week without fail. And yes the Pharisees were rigid and made it all about outside works well as Jesus was about doing things from the heart. Doing good things on the Sabbath is fine like Jesus healing on the Sabbath but the Pharisees did not understand that because they were stuck in their man made tradition. So even thought they kept the Sabbath on the right day, they did not understand why God gave us the Sabbath and what it was for. The Sabbath is supposed to be a blessing to us not a chore which is what the Pharisees had turned it into. But we still have to observe the Sabbath on the right day. This is biblical truth and its uncompromising.

The Pharisees were legalists because they were concerned with keeping the law while ignoring the law-giver. They elevated the commandments of men to the level of a doctrine from God.

I always pray I never become like this to be honest.

Then you will be wrong not to tell the truth of God's Word. You may not like my bedside manner but I have done nothing wrong in telling the truth about God. Do you know one of the reasons Jesus was crucified? Because He told the Pharisees the uncompromising truth and they could not stand it. So they plotted His death. Do you know why the apostles were persecuted and killed? Because they told the uncompromising truth about God without mincing words and many didn't like to hear that they are wrong and resorted to killing them. In the Old Testament, God's prophets were persecuted and some were killed by the Jews because they did not want to hear the stern warnings from God about their wrong doings. We live in a world where people compromise in order not to upset people. The word of God is a sword and uncompromising when we first hear it and it upsets us because we realise and know we are sinful but it will either lead us to get closer to God or to get mad and angry at those who tell us what we are doing is wrong. Many Christians have been persecuted and killed all through the ages because of their uncompromising message and choosing God over the laws of the land when they have to.

To take another example, Jesus washed the feet of His disciples but we all can agree that physical churches literally not washing the feet of their members aren't violating Jesus commands because the lesson here is that we have to take care of each others whenever we're gathered. Not solely because we attend the right church, the right denomination, at the right place, at the right time.

Foot washing is supposed to be part of the communion service and should be done whenever communion is held like Jesus did with the apostles. "If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet" (John 13:14). If you read John 13:1-20, it not only tells us about the first foot washing but also deals with the meaning of this rite for the church at large.

If Jesus tells us to do something its a command, and we should do exactly as He told us to. God is particular about what He asks of us.

Matthew 4:4, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”

John 15:14, “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.”

Jesus' life which is an example to us and we should emulate was uncompromising on anything to do with His Word. He would not compromise on what you think is "non essential" till death.

My message is about the truth of God. And as I said above, the truth is uncompromising. If we find out that what we thought was true isn't, we should pray and ask God to help us accept His truth according to His Word but once we are clear on a Bible truth, it is never good to wait.

I'm sorry I don't believe God is exclusive toward those unable to do 100% of what was prescribed.

Of course if we can't do something God understands. We can only do what we are capable of. For example if we find that we belong to a church that does not teach the entire truth of the Bible, we should pray God to lead us to church that does. And God will if we genuinely want it and are receptive to the Holy Spirit guiding us. However if we find out a truth/light and reject that is a sin. Its wilful sinning. The Bible is full of warnings for wilful disobedience. Here are two passages from the Bible:

Hebrews 10:26-27, “If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

John 12:35, "Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going.”

The Bible leaves no room for doubt. The answer is sobering, but true. When a person knowingly rejects light and continues in disobedience, the light eventually goes out, and he is left in total darkness.

I always make sure to note that we cannot do any of it without God's power. Plus we obey more and more as our faith and trust grows in Christ. We don't just become fully obedient overnight. But we have to be willing to be obedient and live according to the light we have.

As Christians we must be right according to the light we have. The apostle Paul was sincere and zealous when he persecuted Christians before his conversion, but he was also wrong (Acts 22:3-4; 26:9-11).

I think what you're saying is what the Bible calls a luke warm message. Its half-heartedness. Jesus cannot stand luke warmness as you know.

God bless.

 

[Wigi]

@phipps
It will be my last input on this thread but it's reminiscent of the points I tried to get across with @A Freeman .
You start with the wrong premises, that the Apostles strictly observed the law despite what we see in the scriptures

And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”
Matthew 12:2

Then you go a step further and because God commanded the sabbath, you say they mostly gathered saturdays and did saturday worship despite what we see in the scriptures

"So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."
Acts 2:46‭-‬47


"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."
Acts 20:7

and then you slippery slope into we have to keep the full Law including OT's dietary laws or we're not quite right with God. Again I want to be kind but I'm saying, at times, it seems like you both are this close to argue for the return of circumcision as a proof of salvation (because Abraham ect.). I ignore you've already did it but to keep the consistency you'll have to do it.

Maybe you think the right thing and the only proper answer to church liberalism towards mundane ideas these days is strict legalism but the issue from my perspective isn't there. The fundamental issue I see is to believe the Holy Spirit is not also acting outside of the scope of preaching the full unaldultered Gospel of peace thinking/implying studies, insight or good understanding with sometimes strict observance of the law will replace the work of the Spirit of Jesus in someone's life.

To put it simply, I believe everyone reading this is wrong to ignore the importance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why people would accept persecutions in the past and I believe that's why it was and still is arguably one of the most attacked topic among Christians themselves causing denominations to exist because the ruler of this fallen world, which is Satan by the way in case one haven't noticed things are bad here, knows without the Holy Spirit we're doomed to fail our task.

Without the Holy Spirit , someone has to tell me what's the purpose of these churches. They got closed during covid and when the real thing begin and tribulation means dying for your faith, we'll need way more than attending churches on saturdays or caring whether it's lawful to eat shrimps or not.

I think what you're saying is what the Bible calls a luke warm message. Its half-heartedness. Jesus cannot stand luke warmness as you know

I let you judge if this encourage a lukewarm life as you say or if it is divinely inspired guidance for non-jews

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement."
Acts 15:28‭-‬31


"But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”
Acts 21:25

Be blessed

 

[phipps]

@Wigi

It will be my last input on this thread but it's reminiscent of the points I tried to get across with @A Freeman .

Okay.

You start with the wrong premises, that the Apostles strictly observed the law despite what we see in the scriptures

And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”
Matthew 12:2

The apostles were human like you and me. So they did break the commandments as we all have. The only human being who has never sinned was Jesus. However what the apostles were being accused of in Matthew 12 was not true. Remember it wasn't only the apostles accused of breaking the Sabbath commandment. Jesus was being accused too since He was with them. That would mean Jesus too was not lawful which you know is not true. Verse 8 tells us, "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” Jesus should know since He is God and is the One that made the Sabbath for man. So you misunderstood those verses. I suggest you read the whole chapter of Matthew 12.

Then you go a step further and because God commanded the sabbath, you say they mostly gathered saturdays and did saturday worship despite what we see in the scriptures

"So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."
Acts 2:46‭-‬47


"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."
Acts 20:7

You misunderstood me and are putting words in my mouth too. If you'd read my responses to @ToxicFemininitySucks you would not have posted the untruth about what I said. I said because it is the truth of the Bible that Christians can meet, pray, preach and worship on any day of the week but, and I will quote the fourth commandment here, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8-11). While we can meet on any day of the week (and I have done and do meet with Christians during the week days from time to time), we can also work and do other things on those days but God set the Sabbath day aside specially for Him and His people. We can work and do other things on the other days of the week whether we meet or not but the Sabbath (Saturday) day is the day of the Lord and we are to focus only on Him. I hope you now understand my point.

and then you slippery slope into we have to keep the full Law including OT's dietary laws or we're not quite right with God. Again I want to be kind but I'm saying, at times, it seems like you both are this close to argue for the return of circumcision as a proof of salvation (because Abraham ect.). I ignore you've already did it but to keep the consistency you'll have to do it.

The laws God gave us whether they are the eternal law or other laws are for our benefit. The dietary laws which God gave us ( I didn't make them up, they exist and were followed by Christ and the apostles) were given to us so we could have healthy lives here on earth. "Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31). Every aspect of our lives is to bring glory to God. God wants us to be healthy physically, mentally and spiritually. If our health suffers it affects us mentally and spiritually too. That can get in the way of our relationship with God.

Me posting about it is not to make anyone feel guilty. Its to post God's message and how loving and caring He is that what we eat matters to Him too. What is so wrong about that?

Why would I say we need proof of salvation by returning to circumcision. That would be a false teaching and not of the Word of God. The Bible says:

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Galatians 5:6, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."

Colossians 3:11, "where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."

The statement about circumcision is immature and clearly you don't understand why I post what I do. But I know why and I will continue to do so as long as I can where possible in Jesus' name.

Maybe you think the right thing and the only proper answer to church liberalism towards mundane ideas these days is strict legalism but the issue from my perspective isn't there. The fundamental issue I see is to believe the Holy Spirit is not also acting outside of the scope of preaching the full unaldultered Gospel of peace thinking/implying studies, insight or good understanding with sometimes strict observance of the law will replace the work of the Spirit of Jesus in someone's life.

You don't understand legalism according to the Bible. That is why you don't understand anything I'm posting here.

A legalist according to the Bible is a person who is hoping for salvation apart from faith in Christ. He/she does not have daily personal devotions or daily prayer, and does not study his Bible regularly. He depends upon his own works, and he is sufficient to measure the goodness of those works. They think by keeping the law they will be saved. That is not what I post about here in these threads.

We are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. When we have grace we obey God's will. Paul asks in Romans 3:31, "Do we then make void the law through faith?" He then answers his own question by saying, "Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." To establish the law is to obey it. If you don't agree with this, you disagree with the Word of God, not me!

Jesus too hated legalism hence why he always argued with the Pharisees. Their emphasis was on the external and they neglected the internal. They were not concerned about the the condition of our hearts before God.

Only those who have Grace, who love, have faith and trust in God, obey him according to His Word. They obey as Jesus obeyed through the power of Christ.

The law cannot and never will replace the Spirt of Jesus in our lives. The law was given to us to point out sin then we come to Christ who cleanses us of that sin.

To put it simply, I believe everyone reading this is wrong to ignore the importance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why people would accept persecutions in the past and I believe that's why it was and still is arguably one of the most attacked topic among Christians themselves causing denominations to exist because the ruler of this fallen world, which is Satan by the way in case one haven't noticed things are bad here, knows without the Holy Spirit we're doomed to fail our task.

Yes, It is wrong to ignore the importance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit but bear in mind that when we get baptised by the Holy Spirit (which we all should be), it leads us to obedience just as Jesus was obedient. What the Holy Spirit did in Jesus' life here on earth, He can do for us as well if we listen and submit to Him. Do not dismiss this point.

The persecutions happened for various reasons and one of them is that Christians refused to obey another power over God. God was the most important person in their life and they chose death over giving up and disobeying God. The Holy Spirit would have given to bear those persecutions.

While the Holy Spirit is God, it is Christ we need more because He died on the cross for our sins. He is our Saviour not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us to Christ our Saviour. Remember that everything is about Jesus. The central figure of the Bible is Jesus Christ.

Without the Holy Spirit , someone has to tell me what's the purpose of these churches. They got closed during covid and when the real thing begin and tribulation means dying for your faith, we'll need way more than attending churches on saturdays or caring whether it's lawful to eat shrimps or not.

The Holy Spirit is very important to us. And we can't achieve anything without Him. The Holy Spirit leads us into truth, He leads us into a correct understanding of the scriptures (John 17:17). Moreover, central to the scriptures is a correct knowledge of Christ (John 5:39). This is a fundamental part of the work of the Holy Spirit. But first we need to revive and reform and accept true reformation in our lives.

Did you know that the Holy Spirit writes God’s law in our hearts? All ten of them including the fourth commandment about the Sabbath. "clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart" (2 Corinthians 3:3). If the laws are written in our hearts aren't we meant to obey all of them just as we are told to do in the Bible and just as Jesus did?

James wrote, "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).

And Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15).

Hebrews 5:9, “He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”

1 John 2:3, “By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments”

This why we are going to be judged by the law. Because our works will prove whether we are saved or not. Works cannot save us but they prove what is in our hearts. Link.

This is the truth of the Bible.

I will respond to the rest of your post below.

 

[phipps]

@Wigi

I let you judge if this encourage a lukewarm life as you say or if it is divinely inspired guidance for non-jews

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement."
Acts 15:28‭-‬31

You have to understand what was going on in Acts 15 to understand what those verses you posted mean.

There was a Gentile problem in the Antioch church reaching a critical level at that time. It was about circumcision. Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles had apparently been fellowshipping with each other peacefully (Acts 11:19-21, Galatians 2:11-13) but had started to have problems amongst themselves. This happened because of the arrival of a group of believers from Jerusalem. Those individuals from Jerusalem were not very comfortable with the presence of uncircumcised Gentiles in the church (Galatians 2:11-13).

Their point was that the Gentiles should be circumcised and keep all the other Jewish ceremonial laws or they would not be saved. Paul and Barnabas, of course, could not agree with such requirements, which went against the very nature of the gospel. The church of Antioch then decided to send delegates to Jerusalem, including Paul and Barnabas, to find a solution. A council was convened in Jerusalem to discuss the issues in the Antioch church.

They resolved the issue of circumcision satisfactorily. They agreed that salvation is by grace, believing Gentiles were exempted from circumcision when they joined the church. But they should abstain from four things: a) meat offered in sacrifice to idols in pagan rituals and then served in a temple feast or sold in the market, b) blood consumption, c) meat of strangled animals, that is, meat whose blood had not been drained; and d) sexual immorality in its various forms. Do you realise some of these things are from the health and sexual laws In the Old Testament? Many Christians claim that all Old Testament laws apart from those given above including the Levitical food laws (Leviticus 11) and the Sabbath commandment (Exodus 20:8-11), which are absent from the list in Acts 15, are no longer binding for Christians. That is not true of course. The apostolic decree was not a new code of Christian ethics that excluded everything else in the Bible.

So then a letter was written to the Gentile believers in Antioch to inform them of what had been decided. When the letter was read, the church was filled with great joy because of the encouraging message: circumcision was not to be required from Gentile converts. They also raised no objection to the demands of the letter (the fourfold apostolic decree). The first most serious division in the early church was then solved, at least in theory anyway.

"But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Acts 21:25

In Acts 21, Paul returned to Jerusalem after another missionary journey. There were still problems in the Jerusalem church concerning Gentiles. In verses 18-22, James and the Jerusalem elders were concerned about Paul’s reputation among local Jewish believers zealous of the Mosaic law. They had been told that Paul was teaching the Jewish converts who lived abroad to forsake Moses, telling them “not to circumcise their children or observe the customs” (Acts 21:21). This was not really true. What Paul taught was that, in terms of salvation, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision meant anything, as both Jews and Gentiles were equally saved by faith in Jesus (Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 5:6 Colossians 3:11). This is different from explicitly encouraging Jews to disregard the law and its requirements. Obedience is not, of course, in itself a synonym for legalism, though it could deliberately be twisted to mean just that!

In verses 23-26, Paul was advised to be politically correct. He was told to show the falsity of the rumours about him by doing something very Jewish: sponsor the Nazirite vow of some Jewish believers. This vow was a special act of piety through which a Jew would consecrate himself to God. Verses 24-25 say, "Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Unfortunately, Paul yielded. Heroes, including the biblical ones, have their flaws, as we can see in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Peter, and several others. It could be argued that Paul was just following his principle of behaving like a Jew when dealing with Jews (1 Corinthians 9:19-23), or that he himself is reported to have taken a vow not long before (Acts 18:18), though the precise nature of this vow is not clear. This time, however, it was a compromise, as it signified his endorsement of the legalistic motives behind the recommendation. The implication of such an attitude was exactly the one the apostle vigorously tried to oppose: that there are two gospels, one for Gentiles, of salvation by faith, and another for Jews, of salvation by works.

After that there was a riot in Jerusalem caused by people who stirred up the crowd against Paul and he was arrested. He was taken before a crowd and interrogated before the Romans. The Roman commander then realised that Paul did not pose any threat to their empire. The issue involved internal disputes of the Jews, so he asked the Sanhedrin to take up the case (Acts 22:30; 23:29). I'll leave the story there.

The point is in the Bible Jews and Gentiles are saved in the same way. If we want to be saved we accept Christ as our personal Saviour and obey Him. There is only one road to heaven, its narrow but its only one and all those on it are not asked to do different things based on their race, nationality or anything else.

Be blessed

You too.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

The laws God gave us whether they are the eternal law or other laws are for our benefit. The dietary laws which God gave us ( I didn't make them up, they exist and were followed by Christ and the apostles) were given to us so we could have healthy lives here on earth. "Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31). Every aspect of our lives is to bring glory to God. God wants us to be healthy physically, mentally and spiritually. If our health suffers it affects us mentally and spiritually too. That can get in the way of our relationship with God.

Me posting about it is not to make anyone feel guilty. Its to post God's message and how loving and caring He is that what we eat matters to Him too. What is so wrong about that?

The thing is, the law is not just dietary laws. I've noticed that people seem to bring up Sabbath observance or diatary laws, but if one is following the law then its supposed to be the ENTIRE law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

We are also not supposed to wear clothing made of mixed materials.

We are not supposed to plant seeds of a different type in the same field. As most of us are not farmers, would we also forbidden from consuming crops that someone else planted in a mixed field?

Would people that work in healthcare and touch other people's fluids be perpetually unclean, as well as everything they touch? Coroners and morticians? Cemetary caretakers? What about people who work for animal control and come into frequent contact with carcasses?

What of people who have in the past gotten tattoos or other body modifications?

Are we to insist on being paid that same day for that days wages?

Should disobedient adult children be stoned?

All these matters, and others, are discussed in the law, yet often the emphasis is on Sabbath observance and dietary laws (which arguably are the easiest/less intrusive parts to follow).

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

The thing is, the law is not just dietary laws. I've noticed that people seem to bring up Sabbath observance or diatary laws, but if one is following the law then its supposed to be the ENTIRE law.

In the first five books of the Bible there were instructions and teachings recorded in the books of Moses that became a part of Israel’s covenant with God. The law touches upon every part of Israel’s lifestyle — agriculture, civil government, social relationships, and worship.

I will post about the first two first, the moral and ceremonial law.

There were two sets of laws Moses received on Mount Sinai. One was the moral law and the other ceremonial law. Both sets of instructions were called the law, but they were different in that the law of Ten Commandments/moral law defined what sin was, whereas the ceremonial law contained the solution to the sin problem. God wrote the Ten Commandments, and Moses wrote the ceremonial law, or book of the law.

The ten commandments/moral law were:
- spoken by God (Exodus 20:18-20).
- written with God's own finger on two tablets of stone (Exodus 31:18; 32:16; 34:1).
- placed inside the ark of the covenant. The ark of the covenant was the most important piece of furniture in the earthly sanctuary. It was a wooden box, plated with gold which contained only the tablets of the Ten Commandments in it. Placed on top of the box were two angels made of solid gold. Between these two angels was the mercy seat (Exodus 25:17-22), where the presence of God dwelt. This symbolized God’s throne in heaven, which is likewise located between two angels (Psalm 80:1). It was the only piece of furniture in the most holy room.
- God expressly calls what He wrote on the tables of stone, a law and commandments (Exodus 24:12).

Ceremonial law.
According to Deuteronomy 31:26, the laws written down by Moses were placed in the tabernacle “by the side of the covenant of the Lord.” Only the Decalogue/ten commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5).

Ceremonial law regulated the sanctuary ritual, describing the various offerings and the individual citizen’s responsibilities. The feast days are specified and their observance defined. This law centred around the sanctuary and its services, all of which, of course, were designed to teach the children of Israel the plan of salvation and point them to the coming Messiah.

The ceremonial system was meant to function only as a type, a symbol of a future reality - the coming of Jesus and His death and High Priestly ministry. Once He completed His work on earth, this old system along with its sacrifices and rituals and feasts-no longer was needed. Hebrews 9:9-12 says, "It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Though we no longer keep the ceremonial law today, by studying it we can garner insights into the plan of salvation and heavenly sanctuary.

Revelation 11:19 says the Ark of the covenant is in the heavenly temple. It is clear that there was a distinction between the the ten commandments and other laws in the Old Testament. These laws will also apply after the Second Coming of Jesus, as they are the base of God's government.

Its also the ten commandment law that in the New Covenant is written on the heart of the believer (Hebrews 8:10).

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

James was talking about the moral law, the ten commandments. For if we read the next two verses they say, "For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty" (James 2:11-12). The laws mentioned are part of the ten commandments and the law of liberty is another name for the ten commandment law.

We are also not supposed to wear clothing made of mixed materials.

We are not supposed to plant seeds of a different type in the same field. As most of us are not farmers, would we also forbidden from consuming crops that someone else planted in a mixed field?

Would people that work in healthcare and touch other people's fluids be perpetually unclean, as well as everything they touch? Coroners and morticians? Cemetary caretakers? What about people who work for animal control and come into frequent contact with carcasses?

What of people who have in the past gotten tattoos or other body modifications?

Are we to insist on being paid that same day for that days wages?

Should disobedient adult children be stoned?

All these matters, and others, are discussed in the law, yet often the emphasis is on Sabbath observance and dietary laws (which arguably are the easiest/less intrusive parts to follow).

As I mentioned above, there were laws given to Moses to govern the lives of the Israelites in the first five books of the Bible. People them into
different categories to make it easier for them to learn about. There is some overlap with some of them though. The ancients did not see them as separate and distinct.

The different categories are moral law, ceremonial law, civil law and health laws.

I've already posted about moral and ceremonial law above.

Civil laws. These were based on the moral law. They defined a citizen’s relationship to civil authorities and to fellow citizens. These were laws that were given specifically to Old Testament Israel as a nation under a theocracy. They applied to daily living in Israel. For example there was one where if a man and a woman were caught committing adultery they were to be stoned to death. While some of the laws are still relevant from that time, for example its still breaking the law to commit adultery, the punishment of stoning people to death is not applicable today. That kind of judicial system no longer exists because we do not live in a theocracy.

Health laws. Some of these laws overlap with other laws. Under these laws were hygiene, dietary and sexual laws.

Leviticus 13:46, "He shall be unclean. All the days he has the sore he shall be unclean. He is unclean, and he shall dwell alone; his dwelling shall be outside the camp."

A. Quarantine procedures control contagious disease (Leviticus 13:46).
B. Human-body waste should be buried (Deuteronomy 23:12-13).
C. Washing the body and clothing controls germs (Leviticus 17:15-16).
D. Moral living prevents sexual diseases (Leviticus 18; Proverbs 5:1-12; Colossians 3:5-6).
E. Animal fat should not be eaten (Leviticus 3:17; 7:22-24).
F. Hatred and bitterness is detrimental to one's health (Leviticus 19:17-18; Proverbs 15:17; Hebrews 12:14-15).
G. Overeating is harmful (Proverbs 23:2).
H. Our bodies need proper rest (Psalm 127:2; Mark 6:31).
I. Importance of work (Exodus 20:9-10; 2 Thessalonians 3:10).
J. A positive attitude is good medicine (Proverbs 17:22; 1 Timothy 6:6).
K. Parents' habits affect children (Deuteronomy 12:25; Exodus 20:5).
The health laws God gave to His people thousands of years ago were scientifically far ahead of their time. Only in recent years have we recognized how truly great are the benefits they offer!

Why did God give health rules to His people?
God gave health principles because He knows what is best for the human body. Car manufacturers place an operations manual in the glove compartment of each new car because they know what is best for their creation. God, who made our bodies, also has an “operations manual.” It is the Bible. Ignoring God’s “operations manual” often results in disease, twisted thinking, and burned-out lives, just as abusing a car can result in serious car trouble. Following God’s principles results in “saving health” (Psalm 67:2) and more abundant life (John 10:10). With our cooperation, God can use these great health laws to significantly reduce and eliminate the effects of the diseases of Satan (Psalm 103:2-3).

Why is our health so important to God?
1 Corinthians 6:19-20, "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."

Romans 12:1, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."
God wants our bodies to be His holy dwelling place. Therefore we must choose to make them a wholesome place for His residence.

Some of the civil and health laws still apply today but most of them don't.

The weaving of two kinds of material (wool and linen in Deuteronomy 22:11) was a rule about not mixing plant and animal material together. In the same chapter of Deuteronomy 22 there are similar morality laws like a woman not wearing man's clothing and vice versa (verse 5), “You shall not sow your vineyard with different kinds of seed, lest the yield of the seed which you have sown and the fruit of your vineyard be defiled" (verse 9), “You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together" (verse 10) and there are sexual morality laws like homosexuality etc. God did not want natural law perverted. Those things do not mix well together like linen and wool which behave differently and/or are immoral. Also God wanted to make a distinction between His people and the pagan nations around them. One of the things the pagan nations did is have mixed fabrics in their clothing for example. God wanted His people to be a separate and different people in everything they did.

Some of those laws have no application today like the mixing of linen and wool together because firstly most Christians do not make their own fabric or clothing, and secondly clothing manufacturers do not mix these materials together anyway.

Women wearing men's clothing and vice versa, homosexuality etc are still applicable today though. However the punishments of the Old Testament are not applicable any more because we are now under a different government not a theocracy.

Not touching bodies was about preventing diseases and germs which we now know about and have better means of dealing with than the Israelites thousands of years ago.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Some of the civil and health laws still apply today but most of them don't.

What im saying is how do we arbitrarily decide that some apply today and some dont when the scriptures say if we keep the law we are to keep the WHOLE law?

I understand that the ceremonial law was fulfilled by Jesus.

But to selectively choose which of the civil, hygiene or dietary laws are applicable and which are not seems like a matter of "traditions of men".

As ive already mentioned, the dietary laws are actually not difficult to keep (if one doesn't eat pork, predators and scavengers, crustaceans etc, which i happen to find gross anyway). It's hard to not think that the things that "traditions of men" say are still applicable happen to coincidentally be the easier (given modern lifestyles) parts of the law to keep...

Women wearing men's clothing and vice versa,

I happen to be a strong believer in the importance of this one, and have found that while many Christians are very opposed to men wearing women's clothes they look the other way for women wearing men's clothes. I actually had a post censored on a different site when i stated that this tolerance/encouragement for women wearing men's clothes was the first step in the cultural subversion we are seeing now.

However, i would never state that it is a matter of damnation, simply rules to live by in a moral functioning society.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

What im saying is how do we arbitrarily decide that some apply today and some dont when the scriptures say if we keep the law we are to keep the WHOLE law?

I showed you directly from scripture that when the book of James says we should keep the whole law, it meant the ten commandments. He even mentions some of them. Let me repost those verses including verse 10:

James 2:10-12, "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." James did not mean all 613 laws found in the Bible because many of them became obsolete including ceremonial laws as you know.

Again as I posted in my previous response and proved from scripture, it is the ten commandments that are written in our hearts (Hebrews 8:10) and we will be judged by it. So says the Word of God.

I understand that the ceremonial law was fulfilled by Jesus.

Okay.

But to selectively choose which of the civil, hygiene or dietary laws are applicable and which are not seems like a matter of "traditions of men".

All laws God gave to Israel had/have their foundation in the ten commandments. He gave the Israelites laws to regulate society plus He wanted them to be healthy spiritually, physically and mentally. This would make them a happy and contented people and would show the world what life is like with God at the centre of their lives.

However a lot of the laws given to Israel were very much of that time, based on the level of their knowledge and about their culture. As I explained to you some still apply but the punishments don't since we are under a different government not a theocracy under God.

How should we determine whether a law should or should not be kept today? Like someone wrote, "A biblical law should be kept to the extent that its principle can be applied unless the New Testament removes the reason for its application."

For example the health laws specifically the diet one of clean an unclean meat comes all the way from Genesis during the flood where seven of the clean animals went into the ark and just two of the unclean. It was not part of Mosaic law. Yes Moses commented on it and God added more information on it but they predate him. Moses talked about everything. He talked about the civil law and moral law. He talked about other health laws, ceremonial law etc. Moses covered everything, but the clean and unclean distinction was not original with Moses.

The health laws have never been done away with because we all still need to be healthy. We now know scientifically that a good diet and good hygiene prevent disease. We have and are armed with more information about health than the Israelites were thousands of years ago. Now some of the cultural and social aspects don't apply to us any more in some of the laws but in general if we follow the manual of our creator we will live healthy and long lives. Plus these health laws were followed in the New Testament. The apostles told the Gentiles not to consume blood and not to eat meat of strangled animals whose blood had not been drained because animals that have been strangled are not drained of the blood properly. Because God banned us from eating blood in the health laws (Leviticus 3:17, 7:22-27) .

So no, its not traditions of men.

As ive already mentioned, the dietary laws are actually not difficult to keep (if one doesn't eat pork, predators and scavengers, crustaceans etc, which i happen to find gross anyway). It's hard to not think that the things that "traditions of men" say are still applicable happen to coincidentally be the easier (given modern lifestyles) parts of the law to keep...

Its good that the dietary laws are not hard for you to keep. However many struggle even after they find out the truth about dietary laws. Especially if they've been eating and enjoying certain foods all their lives. I think in all things we should not try and do change on our own and seek guidance from God.

I happen to be a strong believer in the importance of this one, and have found that while many Christians are very opposed to men wearing women's clothes they look the other way for women wearing men's clothes. I actually had a post censored on a different site when i stated that this tolerance/encouragement for women wearing men's clothes was the first step in the cultural subversion we are seeing now.

Yes, many things in this world have been perverted due to unnatural and immoral things that have been made to seem normal in the world we live in.

However, i would never state that it is a matter of damnation, simply rules to live by in a moral functioning society.

I have never stated that its a matter of damnation either. We cannot for example eat our way into heaven. We are not saved by works. Only acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour can do that. However the Bible does warn us of the consequences of breaking God's law and not following His principles if we don't repent and come to Him.

I believe we have all sinned and continue to sin. If we confess our sins and repent and turn to Christ, accept him as our personal Saviour and fully submit to Him, we are saved. As we grow in Christ our wills will gradually harmonise with His including following the civil and moral laws, health laws which include diet, hygiene and sexual that are still applicable in the New Covenant. We will obey all His ten commandments, His eternal law (which are written in our hearts). As the Holy Spirit works within us we transform from the inside out and become more loving, trusting and faithful and become more and more like Jesus everyday. We will do things in which God delights.

God bless.