Comparison of JAHtruth's "The way home or face the Fire" to the bible (part 2)

[Red Sky at Morning]

As James said:

James 1:22 But be ye DOERS of the Word, and NOT hearers only, BEING DECEIVED BY YOUR OWN "SELVES".

Christians who believe that James contradicts Paul have been taken in by a deception, since they clearly do not contradict each other but compliment each other quite well.

No one will be justified by having the same "faith" as demons have (faith without works - which is the "faith" demons have - is dead):

Does James Really Contradict Paul?

The central controversy of the Protestant Reformation hinged, at least in part, on how to understand the difference between Paul and James.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

If we read James 2:24 isolated from its context, we could have a real problem, because if James means the same thing that Paul means by “faith” in Romans 3:28 or Ephesians 2:8–9, then James would be flat-out contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith alone. One of the fundamental rules of biblical interpretation, however, is that every text must be interpreted in its context. To understand rightly what James means by “faith alone,” we must read it in its context.

In James 2:14, the apostle points to a faith that “does not have works.” He then asks, “Can that faith save him?” He further explains what he means by “that faith” in verse 19. It’s the kind of “faith” that the demons have. That is to say, it’s a mere intellectual assent. The demons believe that “God is one.” They believe the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 is true. They know Israel’s God is the one true God and that he will judge the world. As a result of this, they tremble. Not only do they believe the truth, but they have a proper emotional response to the truth. But this is not justifying faith.

I suspect our hypothetical “Christian” who “believes” but has no love of the Lord and no desire to do His will has never truly believed.

 

[lightseeker]

I suspect our hypothetical “Christian” who “believes” but has no love of the Lord and no desire to do His will has never truly believed.

It's a false dichotomy. Faith without works is dead because it'd be like a tree without a trunk. How can you say you have faith and never act on it? Never do anything to show it? Only works without faith is possible

 

[The Sojourner]

I suspect our hypothetical “Christian” who “believes” but has no love of the Lord and no desire to do His will has never truly believed.

Yes. Saying that one believes, means nothing if it does not produce the fruits of doing (actions).

That is clearly taught by the Bible.

Therefore it is no good to SAY that "we believe Jesus", but then are not going to actually do what The Lord says.

Actions speak louder than words, because words by themselves are meaningless, unless backed-up and proven to be true, by actions.

You don't look at what people "say", if you want to really know what they are about; you look at what they do.

Matthew
24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh.
24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when He cometh shall find so DOING.

 

[Lyfe]

Jesus said it was THE FATHER within him that does the works. If someone has been spiritually reborn and been made into a new creation by the holy spirit then they will bear the fruit of the spirit. Jesus chose his disciples to bear fruit. We are Gods workmanship. It's God who works in us. If it's not the holy spirit producing the fruit then it's a dead work.

The fruit of the spirit is a natural result that comes from someone who has placed real faith in Christ. Works or the fruit of the spirit is an evidence that someone has real faith. If a person is sanctified in Christ and not quenching the spirit they will just naturally bear his fruit. You don't need to tell atree to bear fruit it just naturally does!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yes. Saying that one believes, means nothing if it does not produce the fruits of doing (actions).

That is clearly taught by the Bible.

Therefore it is no good to SAY that "we believe Jesus", but then are not going to actually do what The Lord says.

Actions speak louder than words, because words by themselves are meaningless, unless backed-up and proven to be true, by actions.

You don't look at what people "say", if you want to really know what they are about; you look at what they do.

Matthew
24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh.
24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when He cometh shall find so DOING.

I am currently weeding the garden so I naturally came to this metaphor. A tree has roots, and without them it wouldn’t have leaves.

Leaves are evidence of a root, but cannot exist without it. In the same way, out Christian “fruitfulness” of good works flows out of the hidden “root” of the new

Those who reject their need to be born again are rather like people trying to create a tree without a root. Such an exercise might work for a time, but as there is no life flowing through it, the leaves will eventually fail.

Consider these words from Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:


11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I.e. the carnal Christian might find their way home but will face the fire of judgement of their works which will be burned up, leading to loss of eternal rewards.

 

[The Sojourner]

Jesus said it was THE FATHER within him that does the works. If someone has been spiritually reborn and been made into a new creation by the holy spirit then they will bear the fruit of the spirit. Jesus chose his disciples to bear fruit. We are Gods workmanship. It's God who works in us. If it's not the holy spirit producing the fruit then it's a dead work.

The fruit of the spirit is a natural result that comes from someone who has placed real faith in Christ. Works or the fruit of the spirit is an evidence that someone has real faith. If a person is sanctified in Christ and not quenching the spirit they will just naturally bear his fruit. You don't need to tell a tree to bear fruit it just naturally does!

But, if you want the fruit of the tree to be good, then it is sensible to prune the tree regularly so it does not just grow wild. Pruning of trees is what encourages vigorous growth and the best fruit. As @Red Sky at Morning is a gardener, he might be able to attest to the positive effects of pruning a tree, as well as the pulling up of the weeds, and why that has to be done.

Learning The Law of The Lord so that it can be meditated upon, amounts spiritually to what pruning does to a tree physically. It also makes us aware of any weeds that may have started to spring up in our spiritual life, so that the weeds can be uprooted. Weeds take away nutrients that would otherwise be available to the tree, for producing good fruit.

The Lord is after all The Divine Gardener, for both our spiritual and physical lives. So it is for our own benefit, that we must allow Him (through His Law and Holy Spirit) to do the necessary pruning and weeding that is so necessary in all of our lives, if we want to be able to grow up straight, and not end up getting weeded out and growing wild.

But if we reject The Law, then we are rejecting the pruning of The Lord that He has declared and therefore intended, for our benefit. If there was never any pruning, then we would just grow wild and could be overtaken by the weeds.

John
15:1 I am the True Vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, He pruneth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But, if you want the fruit of the tree to be good, then it is sensible to prune the tree regularly so it does not just grow wild. Pruning of trees is what encourages vigorous growth and the best fruit. As @Red Sky at Morning is a gardener, he might be able to attest to the positive effects of pruning a tree, as well as the pulling up of the weeds, and why that has to be done.

Learning The Law of The Lord so that it can be meditated upon, amounts spiritually to what pruning does to a tree physically. It also makes us aware of any weeds that may have started to spring up in our spiritual life, so that the weeds can be uprooted. Weeds take away nutrients that would otherwise be available to the tree, for producing good fruit.

The Lord is after all The Divine Gardener, for both our spiritual and physical lives. So it is for our own benefit, that we must allow Him (through His Law and Holy Spirit) to do the necessary pruning and weeding that is so necessary in all of our lives, if we want to be able to grow up straight, and not end up getting weeded out and growing wild.

But if we reject The Law, then we are rejecting the pruning of The Lord that He has declared and therefore intended, for our benefit. If there was never any pruning, then we would just grow wild and could be overtaken by the weeds.

John
15:1 I am the True Vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, He pruneth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

There’s is something many people miss when talking about hypothetical trees without leaves or leaves without roots - nether of those situations really occur.

The caricature of a lawless Christian who cares nothing for God’s standards yet experiences peace and joy in the grace of God because they believe doesn’t exist any more than the person who upholds God’s standards and apparently lives for the Lord but who is unsaved.

There is a caveat here though - a person may become a Christian by faith and take a long time to lay roots down due to their hearts being of harder soil (or the weeds growing up) and that might delay or reduce their fruit. It doesn’t mean they are not saved. I think Alice Cooper might be a pretty good example of this…

Conversely, a person may draw near to God trough an acknowledgement of the rightness of his standards but might take longer to realise that they are unsaved and need to accept Jesus as their Lord. This second scenario happened with John Wesley.

It’s interesting to me that Jesus loved religious Saul enough to reveal Himself to Him. He also loved the carnel Corinthian Christian who was put out of the fellowship for his sinful behaviour enough to restore him.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Another beauty from TWHOFTF:

3:121 A REAL lady (spiritual-qualities, NOT money, or titles) has already learned special qualities, that are preparing her to become a man, in a later lifetime. She has grace and elegance, WITHOUT arrogance; is 100% feminine (soft; warm; affectionate and loving); is self-sacrificing and humble, towards her loved-ones and people in general; is modest about her body, and does not exhibit her nakedness to anyone, except her husband; is a virgin when she gets married, saving her charms, unspoiled, for the man she loves (a woman, almost always, falls in love with, and never forgets, the man to whom she gives her virginity)(lst. Timothy 2:15).

3:122 A lady has progressed from being an animal, and attracting people with sex, to wanting people to respect and be attracted to her soul, which is the real her.

@ToxicFemininitySucks, what do you think of this classic plus the other relevant posts mentioned so far?

I've was away from internet access for a few days, so i have about a dozen pages to catch up on this thread.

But i will say that is an incredibly loose interpretation of 1Tim2:15

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

But we already know that jah has no problem adding on to the scriptures, nor assuming that people will not double check the verses referenced...

 

[A Freeman]

Not possible since the Bible says Christ created all the beings in the heavens and is worshipped by the angels. Why don’t you stop posting proven falsehoods that even you have admitted you have no answer for?

Hebrews 1:1-6
1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
1:4 BEING MADE (CREATED) so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the FIRSTBEGOTTEN (FIRST CREATED) into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

 

[lightseeker]

by whom also He made the worlds;

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. Angels don't create

1:4 BEING MADE (CREATED) so much better than the angels,

"Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was"
Christ was begotten in eternity, not time.

He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Angels don't worship an angel. You didn't bold this one

This passage was written to describe that Christ is not an angel, it does so effectively.

 

[A Freeman]

The James vs Paul debate predates your entrance to the forum!

How could someone seriously entertain such an errant viewpoint? It's like saying "there's an arm v. leg debate".

How can two apparently contradictory perspectives both be true?

Because they aren't contradictory? ALL Scripture when properly transcribed, translated and understood is in perfect agreement.

I think this verse illustrates it well…

Proverbs 26:4-5 –

“Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.”

Should you or should you not answer a fool? Perhaps it depends on the fool being addressed?

Perhaps we should show our Faith by Listening and DOING what Christ says so that we can be likened to a wise man instead of a fool?

Matthew 7:21-24
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into The Kingdom of heaven; ONLY he that DOETH the Will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work inequity.
7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a Rock (the Truth):

Likewise, though saved by grace, a real Christian should live as though good works are essential, and strive to honour God’s standards, both for our own good, the good of others we interact with and in order to honour our saviour.

It isn’t an either / or. Properly understood, the Christian life demands both!

Either one obeys The Law/Commandments of God (and therefore truly loves his brother) or they don't.

And if we believe God, rather than men and their foolish doctrines and traditions, then it should be self-evident that there is no such thing as Faith without works, which is why Paul told everyone we were CREATED IN CHRIST TO DO GOOD WORKS.

Ephesians 2:8-10
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 3:7-9
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[A Freeman]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. Angels don't create

"Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was"
Christ was begotten in eternity, not time.

Angels don't worship an angel. You didn't bold this one

This passage was written to describe that Christ is not an angel, it does so effectively.

Hebrews 1:1-6
1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
1:4 BEING MADE (CREATED) so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the FIRSTBEGOTTEN (FIRST CREATED) into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

 

[lightseeker]

Because they aren't contradictory? ALL Scripture when edited to fit an agenda is in perfect agreement.

Fixed that for you

 

[lightseeker]

Hebrews 1:1-6
1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
1:4 BEING MADE (CREATED) so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the FIRSTBEGOTTEN (FIRST CREATED) into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Did the Freeman bot break?

 

[A Freeman]

“You” are body, soul and regenerated spirit (or fallen, fleshly sin nature). At this time we exist as tripartite beings.

And where does Christ tell us we are tripartite beings? Verse please?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

And where does Christ tell us we are tripartite beings? Verse please?

Jesus didn’t use all the three terms in one sentence, but Paul did:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[JoChris]

I've was away from internet access for a few days, so i have about a dozen pages to catch up on this thread.

But i will say that is an incredibly loose interpretation of 1Tim2:15

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

But we already know that jah has no problem adding on to the scriptures, nor assuming that people will not double check the verses referenced...

I think you mentioned AJH's view on women in the past so I wanted to see your opinion too. I don't know how many other forum members are also women.

 

[JoChris]

Did the Freeman bot break?

I have done my very best to get him off script because my eyes now glaze over when I see too much text with the same Bible verses over and over... and over...

 

[A Freeman]

Jesus didn’t use all the three terms in one sentence, but Paul did:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

So what makes you believe that if Christ (The Master/Teacher) never used those terms together when teaching us about the difference between the spirit and the flesh, that Paul (the primary school student, who wasn't even a disciple) would somehow be describing something different than, or have more knowledge on the subject than his Master/Teacher?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell-fire.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So what makes you believe that if Christ (The Master/Teacher) never used those terms together when teaching us about the difference between the spirit and the flesh, that Paul (the primary school student, who wasn't even a disciple) would somehow be describing something different than, or have more knowledge on the subject than his Master/Teacher?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I think this is a question of the three parts being united in one sentence, but the concept of a body, a soul and a spirit are replete throughout scripture.

I think this mention is particularly relevant:

1 John 4:2

“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:”