Catholicism 101

[Infinityloop]

“Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscar´i-ot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:60-71‬ ‭KJVA‬‬

Yes I know these verses, can you explain what you are trying to say by highlighting those two passages over the rest of the chapter?

 

[floss]

Yes I know these verses, can you explain what you are trying to say by highlighting those two passages over the rest of the chapter?

"The flesh profiteth nothing" - does this sound like he preach a literal flesh eating? Nope, it's a spiritual matter, hence metaphorically "eating his flesh and drinking his blood". His flesh took the punishment for the sins of the whole world and his blood make you spotless in front of the Great Judge. There are always people taking things literally.

Those that walked away aren't chosen by the Father and they never believe from the beginning. Plain and simple

 

[phipps]

I apologize but I'm a bit confused. Which one is it?

Both. But while Jesus was on earth He did not exercise His godly powers to save Himself. He was fully human. Only God can be both fully human and fully God.

 

[Haich]

Am I missing the meaning of fully?

To embody something in its entirety nullifies your ability to embody something else in its entirety. My glass of water can't be full and empty at the same time...it's one or the other...so being fully God and man does not make sense for that reason...

Also, If he was fully human and fully God while on earth, why did he pray to the father? Makes no sense...you have revealed a hierachal triad where the father remains supreme in your trinity. Nothing goes without the father's say so...so Jesus doesn't control the reigns...

At least argue he was half man and half God!

 

[phipps]

Am I missing the meaning of fully?

To embody something in its entirety nullifies your ability to embody something else in its entirety. My glass of water can't be full and empty at the same time...it's one or the other...so being fully God and man does not make sense for that reason...

Also, If he was fully human and fully God while on earth, why did he pray to the father? Makes no sense...you have revealed a hierachal triad where the father remains supreme in your trinity. Nothing goes without the father's say so...so Jesus doesn't control the reigns...

At least argue he was half man and half God!

Remember God can do anything and is not limited as we are. We will never fully understand Jesus' incarnation until after He returns. As humans we are limited in understanding God fully and its important we understand that. The Bible teaches Jesus was fully human and fully God. Jesus did not exercise His divinity to save Himslef while on earth so He relied completely on the Father for everything as should we as Jesus showed us. What is important is why Jesus came to this earth. He came to save us from the bondage of sin and to save us eternally should we accept His sacrifice for us on the cross.

 

[Kung Fu]

Remember God can do anything and is not limited as we are. We will never fully understand Jesus' incarnation until after He returns. As humans we are limited in understanding God fully and its important we understand that. The Bible teaches Jesus was fully human and fully God. Jesus did not exercise His divinity to save Himslef while on earth so He relied completely on the Father for everything as should we as Jesus showed us. What is important is why Jesus came to this earth. He came to save us from the bondage of sin and to save us eternally should we accept His sacrifice for us on the cross.

Why not just rely on the Father like Jesus did? What if I rely on the Father only and worship only Him like the prophets that did before Jesus? Would I be saved?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Both. But while Jesus was on earth He did not exercise His godly powers to save Himself. He was fully human. Only God can be both fully human and fully God.

I think the frame of reference is the issue here.

The Islamic view appears to limit the nature of God by the nature of His creation. I can understand how this might be presented as “common sense” in the mosque but they are simply extrapolating their own attributes to the divine and that may be the point of disagreement.

 

[Lisa]

So why is it okay for Lisa, or Joe Blow Fundamentalist, to know what Jesus thought, but not the people who were closest to him, or not for the people who are considered to have the greatest minds in all of Christianity? Your doctrines are coming in against you.

Just answer this question that you keep avoiding...

Did the people closest to Him, His disciples cut Him up and eat His flesh and drink His blood after what He said. If not, I think if you were honest...you’d have to take a hard look at what you do. If they didn’t do that, why are you?

Even great minds can believe in falsehoods and fall away from the truth...make sure you don’t follow them.

I think its your doctrines that don’t hold up.

 

[Kung Fu]

I think the frame of reference is the issue here.

The Islamic view appears to limit the nature of God by the nature of His creation. I can understand how this might be presented as “common sense” in the mosque but they are simply extrapolating their own attributes to the divine and that may be the point of disagreement.

This makes no sense. If anything you're the one extrapolating your own nature on to that of God. You limit God by turning Him into a man who supposedly died. You turned the immortal into a mortal. There's two problems you face. Firstly, you have turned the All Powerful into the most weakest and secondly, you created a contradiction within the nature of God.

The Jews and Muslims say that God is nothing like man. Not even close.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This makes no sense. If anything you're the one extrapolating your own nature on to that of God. You limit God by turning Him into a man who supposedly died. You turned the immortal into a mortal. There's two problems you face. Firstly, you have turned the All Powerful into the most weakest and secondly, you created a contradiction within the nature of God.

Do you think it likely that God can be fully comprehended by His creation or would we have to have divine capacities to properly comprehend Him?

 

[Kung Fu]

Do you think it likely that God can be fully comprehended by His creation or would we have to have divine capacities to properly comprehend Him?

Of course not. God is far above HUMANS. But He gave us certain capabilities to be able figure certain things out. For example, we know a servant cannot serve two masters equally. Just as we know that being immortal means you're not mortal.

 

[Helioform]

None of the Catholics are actually eating Christ's flesh or drinking his blood either. It's a symbolic gesture.

 

[Haich]

Remember God can do anything and is not limited as we are. We will never fully understand Jesus' incarnation until after He returns. As humans we are limited in understanding God fully and its important we understand that. The Bible teaches Jesus was fully human and fully God. Jesus did not exercise His divinity to save Himslef while on earth so He relied completely on the Father for everything as should we as Jesus showed us. What is important is why Jesus came to this earth. He came to save us from the bondage of sin and to save us eternally should we accept His sacrifice for us on the cross.

You completely disgreard what God doesn't do because of his grandeur. He doesn't use the toilet, he doesn't have bowel movements...Jesus did. Jesus was human in his entirety and was given some powers by the permission of The father. In order to be a god, you have to uphold a certain standard of divinity and difference to your creation...this is why your views don't make logical sense. We are the creation and we were created, God doesn't need to experience our lives on earth to empathise or save us...he knows us better than we know ourselves as he made us...

I don't see the Jews referring to Moses as God for turning his staff into a serpent...
Jesus isn't unique with his powers, there were other prophets who also were granted powers.

And I disagree, jesus saving us is an entirely different issue and the matter of the trinity is not only confusing, it is nonsensical. It can't be explained because it doesn't make sense...it's not an issue of viewing things from an 'Islamic' perspective like Redsky always argues...it is being unable to explain something you follow and deem true to curious people.

 

[Haich]

I am able to breakdown my faith, in a clear and concise way, tell you what I believe about this life and the afterlife, what is going to happen and how to navigate and live a life of peace. I use the Quran and hadith as a reference and even if you don't agree with it, you will see what I believe and how it makes sense to me...

You cannot do the same with Christianity. The multitude of denominations and various conflicting beliefs make it an utter circus...the foundation of your faith (which is also disputed since you have Unitarians who reject the trinity) cannot be explained
...so shouting from the rooftops about jesus saving me is falling on deaf ears until you are able to explain with clarity and prove the trinity...addressing all the common questions one would have
....

I mean, according to Christianity, what are the conditions of being a divine being? It seems you can be a God and sit on a toilet so I'm just curious...what are the attributes of a God, then?

 

[Wigi]

To embody something in its entirety nullifies your ability to embody something else in its entirety.

Yes but it's wrong to assume God have the same physical or spiritual attributes/restrictions than His creation and in fact, I think it's rather strange to clinge on reasonings when God made it clear with Abraham that a good understanding of Him only comes through faith.

If he was fully human and fully God while on earth, why did he pray to the father? Makes no sense

It's a mystery, we have examples in the OT where God was praising God while Himself He is God :

Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord , the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth"
Exodus 34:5‭-‬6

 

[Lisa]

None of the Catholics are actually eating Christ's flesh or drinking his blood either. It's a symbolic gesture.

Huh..

What is transubstantiation?"

Answer: Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

In other words, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that once an ordained priest blesses the bread of the Lord’s Supper, it is transformed into the actual flesh of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of bread); and when he blesses the wine, it is transformed into the actual blood of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of wine).

What is transubstantiation? | GotQuestions.org

What is transubstantiation? Does the bread and the wine/juice literally become the body and blood of Jesus Christ?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Helioform]

Huh..

What is transubstantiation?"

Answer: Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

In other words, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that once an ordained priest blesses the bread of the Lord’s Supper, it is transformed into the actual flesh of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of bread); and when he blesses the wine, it is transformed into the actual blood of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of wine).

What is transubstantiation? | GotQuestions.org

What is transubstantiation? Does the bread and the wine/juice literally become the body and blood of Jesus Christ?

www.gotquestions.org

Most Catholics reject that doctrine.

Just one-third of U.S. Catholics agree with their church that Eucharist is body, blood of Christ

Just 31% of U.S. Catholics believe that the bread and wine used in Communion become the body and blood of Christ. Nearly seven-in-ten say the Eucharist is symbolic.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Lisa]

Most Catholics reject that doctrine.

Just one-third of U.S. Catholics agree with their church that Eucharist is body, blood of Christ

Just 31% of U.S. Catholics believe that the bread and wine used in Communion become the body and blood of Christ. Nearly seven-in-ten say the Eucharist is symbolic.

www.pewresearch.org

That’s a good thing. Do you know what the percentage is in the rest of the world?

 

[Helioform]

That’s a good thing. Do you know what the percentage is in the rest of the world?

I know no survey that was done in other parts of the world.

 

[Haich]

Yes but it's wrong to assume God have the same physical or spiritual attributes/restrictions than His creation and in fact, I think it's rather strange to clinge on reasonings when God made it clear with Abraham that a good understanding of Him only comes through faith.



It's a mystery, we have examples in the OT where God was praising God while Himself He is God :

Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord , the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth"
Exodus 34:5‭-‬6

Faith is such a lose term and there needs to be a distinguishing line between creator and creation.

Mystery? Bit of a cop out tbh.