"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

[Claire Rousseau]

Only God is our salvation Claire, but if you read the verse I quoted you would see that following Muhammad and the Guidance he was sent with (Quran and Sunnah) leads to salvation and the ultimate success - Eternal happiness with Almighty God!

Anyways, I didn't post to debate with you Claire, I'm just adding the Muslim's perspective. Peace.

I’m not trying to debate, I apologize if it came off that way.

I do appreciate your response.

The reason I ask is because I do not know the Muslim perspective on salvation.

The Bible is clear about it, but how does Islam promise salvation?

Because without a Saviour, how do you redeem yourself of sin?

 

[DesertRose]

I do not know if sister GS is still here, apologies sis I will respond for now and you can add if you wish later:
Claire no worries it is good to understand someone with a different perspective thanks for inquiring:

"Whenever a person commits a sin, he alone is responsible for that sin. Every person is responsible for his or her own actions. Consequently, no human being who has ever lived is responsible for the mistakes made by Adam and Eve. God says in the Quran:

“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden.” (Quran 35:18)

Adam and Eve made a mistake, they repented sincerely, and God in His infinite wisdom forgave them. Humankind is not doomed to be punished, generation after generation. The sins of the father are not visited upon the sons.

“Then they both ate of that tree, and so their private parts appeared to them, and they began to stick on themselves the leaves from Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness and gave him guidance.” (Quran 20:121-122)

Above all Islam teaches us that God is the most forgiving, and will go on forgiving, repeatedly. Part of being human is making mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes are made without deliberation or a bad intention, but sometimes we knowingly and deliberately sin and do wrong to others. Therefore as human beings, we are constantly in need of forgiveness.

The life of this world is fraught with trials and tribulations, however God did not abandon humankind to theses tests. God equipped humankind with an intellect and the ability to make choices and decisions. God also gave us words of guidance. As our creator, He is well aware of our nature and eager to guide us on the straight path that leads to eternal bliss.

The Quran is God’s final revelation and it is applicable for all of humankind; all people, all places, all times. Throughout the Quran God continually asks us to turn to Him in repentance and ask for His forgiveness. This is the road to salvation. This is our rescue from destruction.

“And whoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks God’s forgiveness, he will find God Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Quran 4:10)

“And O my people! Ask forgiveness of your Lord and then repent to Him, He will send you (from the sky) abundant rain, and add strength to your strength, so do not turn away as criminals, disbelievers in the Oneness of God.” (Quran 11:52)

“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)

Quran is not only a book of guidance, it is a book of hope. In it God’s love, mercy, and forgiveness are obvious and thus humankind is reminded not to give in to despair. No matter what sins a person may have committed if he resolutely turns to God, seeking forgiveness his salvation is assured.

Prophet Muhammad described sin as black spots covering the heart. He said, “Indeed if a believer sins, a black spot covers his heart. If he repents, stops the sin, and seeks forgiveness for it, his heart becomes clean again. If he persists (instead of repenting), it increases until it covers his heart…”

Salvation in Islam is not required because of the stain of original sin. Salvation is required because humankind is imperfect and in need of God’s forgiveness and love. In order to understand the concept of salvation correctly we must understand other topics embedded in salvation. These are, understanding the importance of tawheed, or the Oneness of God, and knowing how to repent sincerely ."
source: http://www.thedeenshow.com/salvation-in-islam

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@DesertRose

Just so I understand, would you regard people as being unaffected by an original fall?

Is the world and nature equally unaffected?

 

[DesertRose]

Just so I understand, would you regard people as being unaffected by an original fall?

Islam does not teach that we are born sinners we were born pure but we sin and become impure. Adam and Eve sinned after being tricked by Satan but they repented this taught us (their progeny )that when we sin we need to cease and turn to God in sincere repentance and ask for forgiveness..
The story of Adam and Eve teaches us a lesson of original forgiveness and not original sin.

 

[grateful servant]

..... Correct me if I’m wrong but Muhammad approved and ordered the murders of those who mocked/disagreed with him. ...
After Muhammad died his closest friends and family murdered and persecuted each other....

You could safely practice your faith in a Christian nation, but I could not safely be a Christian in an Islamic country...
‬‬

Violette, it sounds as if you get your information from religionofpeace or some other Islam hating site. Prophet Muhammad never took revenge for himself although he was called the most despicable names - he was the most merciful, forbearing and just person that ever lived. After his death, his message of Islam spread throughout the Arabian peninsula and to the ends of the earth. His closest companions are known as the four rightly guided caliphs.His family and companions are the best people to live on this earth after the prophets. By Islamic law, people of other faiths are free to practice their religion within the Islamic society. I'm sorry you have such a distorted view of Muhammad and Islam and I pray God will open your heart to the reality of His religion that He has chosen for us, His people.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Islam does not teach that we are born sinners we were born pure but we sin and become impure. Adam and Eve sinned after being tricked by Satan but they repented this taught us (their progeny )that when we sin we need to cease and turn to God in sincere repentance and ask for forgiveness..
The story of Adam and Eve teaches us a lesson of original forgiveness and not original sin.

I understand that from what you wrote, but what of the fall, sin nature, a curse on creation etc. Are these concepts primarily Judeo-Christian in your view?

 

[grateful servant]

I’m not trying to debate, I apologize if it came off that way.

I do appreciate your response.

The reason I ask is because I do not know the Muslim perspective on salvation.

The Bible is clear about it, but how does Islam promise salvation?

Because without a Saviour, how do you redeem yourself of sin?

you know Claire, I recall you saying the same thing in the last iteration of the VC forums. I know that Tarek, myself and others there explained in detail to you the Muslim perspective on salvation. I remember at one point shortly thereafter, you went absolutely berzerk and hurled vile and slanderous accusations against Islam, Muhammad and Muslims.

I remember it quite well which is why I clarified in my first remark that I am not looking to debate, I posted for those readers whose hearts Almghty God has opened to the truth.

And speaking of truth, you have no interest in knowing the Muslim perspective on anything religious-wise except to use it to attack our pure way of life. I am speaking from experience with you, and as a word of advice to any other Muslims who get pulled into a discussion on Islam with Claire.

 

[Violette]

Violette, it sounds as if you get your information from religionofpeace or some other Islam hating site. Prophet Muhammad never took revenge for himself although he was called the most despicable names - he was the most merciful, forbearing and just person that ever lived. After his death, his message of Islam spread throughout the Arabian peninsula and to the ends of the earth. His closest companions are known as the four rightly guided caliphs.His family and companions are the best people to live on this earth after the prophets. By Islamic law, people of other faiths are free to practice their religion within the Islamic society. I'm sorry you have such a distorted view of Muhammad and Islam and I pray God will open your heart to the reality of His religion that He has chosen for us, His people.

I got the info from from google and wikiislam, everything in the wiki is cited though. I could provide the sources if you wanted. And I’m not sure I believe that though...you may be free to practice other faiths but that doesn’t free them from persecution and discrimination. 1 in 12 Christians live in an area or culture where Christianity is forbidden, punishable, or illegal. 8 out of the 10 most dangerous places for Christians are Muslim countries. I’ve tried reading the Quran, read the key teachings, and all the Muslim women I’ve met are really nice but I just don’t see the love, peace, and security in Islam as I do with Christ.

 

[grateful servant]

I got the info from from google and wikiislam, everything in the wiki is cited though. I could provide the sources if you wanted. And I’m not sure I believe that though...you may be free to practice other faiths but that doesn’t free them from persecution and discrimination. 1 in 12 Christians live in an area or culture where Christianity is forbidden, punishable, or illegal. 8 out of the 10 most dangerous places for Christians are Muslim countries. I’ve tried reading the Quran, read the key teachings, and all the Muslim women I’ve met are really nice but I just don’t see the love, peace, and security in Islam as I do with Christ.

Wikiislam is an anti islam site.
God gave us all free will to choose to follow Islam or any other religion. If it His will that you follow the guidance He sent down to Muhammad then it will be. In Islam we say, "to you your way and to me mine." peace.

 

[Violette]

Wikiislam is an anti islam site.
God gave us all free will to choose to follow Islam or any other religion. If it His will that you follow the guidance He sent down to Muhammad then it will be. In Islam we say, "to you your way and to me mine." peace.

I appreciate the discussion GS

 

[DesertRose]

Are these concepts primarily Judeo-Christian in your view?

Hi Red sorry for the late response was off on an errand.
I would say that about sums it up.

 

[DesertRose]

One correction of myself Red, there is a curse on Shaitan/satan not a curse on creation. Dwelling on earth is a test not a curse for humans.
This might explain better:
"Praise be to Allaah.

Allaah created Adam with His hand and breathed into him his soul created by Him, and told His angels to prostrate to him.

Allaah created Adam from dust, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the likeness of ‘Eesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!’ — and he was”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:59]

When Allaah had completed the creation of Adam, He commanded the angels to prostrate to him, so they prostrated, except for Iblees, who was present but he refused and was too arrogant to prostrate to Adam:

“(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Truly, I am going to create man from clay.

So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.’

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them,

Except Iblees (Satan), he was proud and was one of the disbelievers”

[Saad 38:71-74 – interpretation of the meaning]

Then Allaah told the angels that He was going to place Adam on earth and make generations after generations of his offspring, as He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth’”

[al-Baqarah 2:30]

Allaah taught Adam all the names:

“And He taught Adam all the names (of everything)”

[al-Baqarah 2:31 – interpretation of the meaning]

When Iblees refused to prostrate to Adam, Allaah expelled him and cursed him:

“(Allaah) said: ‘Then get out from here; for verily, you are outcast.

And verily, My Curse is on you till the Day of Recompense’”

[Saad 38:77-78 – interpretation of the meaning]

When Iblees knew of his fate, he asked Allaah to give him respite until the Day of Resurrection:

“[Iblees (Satan)] said: ‘My Lord!Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are resurrected.’

(Allaah) said: ‘Verily, you are of those allowed respite

Till the Day of the time appointed’”

[Saad 38:79-81 – interpretation of the meaning]

When Allaah granted him that, he declared war on Adam and his descendants, made disobedience attractive to them and tempted them to commit immoral actions:

“[Iblees (Satan)] said: ‘By Your Might, then I will surely, mislead them all,

Except Your chosen slaves amongst them (i.e. faithful, obedient, true believers of Islamic Monotheism).’”

[Saad 38:82-83 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah created Adam, and from him He created his wife, and from their progeny He created men and women, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], and from them both He created many men and women”

[al-Nisaa’ 4:1]

Then Allaah caused Adam and his wife to dwell in Paradise, as a test for them. He commanded them to eat of the fruits of Paradise but He forbade them to eat from one tree:

“And We said: ‘O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight, of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zaalimoon (wrong-doers)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:35 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah warned Adam and his wife against the Shaytaan, as He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you will be distressed”

[Ta-Ha 20:117]

Then the Shaytaan whispered to Adam and his wife, and tempted them to eat from the forbidden tree. Adam forgot and could not resist the temptation, so he disobeyed his Lord and ate from that tree:

“Then Shaytaan (Satan) whispered to him, saying : ‘O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that will never waste away?’

Then they both ate of the tree, and so their private parts became manifest to them, and they began to cover themselves with the leaves of the Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray”

[Ta-Ha 20:120-121 – interpretation of the meaning]

Their Lord called to them and said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily, Shaytaan (Satan) is an open enemy unto you?”

[al-A’raaf 7:22]

When they ate from the tree, they regretted what they had done, and said:

“Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers”

[al-A’raaf 7:23 – interpretation of the meaning]

The sin of Adam stemmed from desire, not from arrogance (DR:arrogance is grave sin it let Shaitan disobey and not ask for forgiveness), hence Allaah guided him (Adam) to repent and He accepted that from him:

“Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily,He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful”

[al-Baqarah 2:37 – interpretation of the meaning]

This is the way for Adam and his descendants whoever sins then repents sincerely, Allaah will accept his repentance:

“And He it is Who accepts repentance from His slaves, and forgives sins, and He knows what you do”

[al-Shoora 42:25 – interpretation of the meaning]

Then Allaah sent Adam and his wife, and Iblees, down to the earth, and He sent down Revelation to them and He sent the Messengers to them. So whoever believes will enter Paradise and whoever disbelieves will enter Hell:

“We said: ‘Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.

But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) — such are the dwellers of the Fire. They shall abide therein forever’”

[al-Baqarah 2:38-39 – interpretation of the meaning]

When Allaah sent them all down to the earth, the conflict between faith and kufr, between truth and falsehood, between good and evil, began, and it will continue until Allaah inherits the earth and everyone on it:

“(Allaah) said: ‘Get down, one of you an enemy to the other [i.e. Adam, Hawwa, (Eve), and Shaytaan (Satan)]. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time’ (DR: Dwelling on earth is a test not a curse)

[al-A’raaf 7:24 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah is Able to do all things. He created Adam with no father or mother, and He created Hawwa from a father with no mother, and He created ‘Eesa from a mother with no father, and He created us from a father and a mother.

Allaah created Adam from dust, then He made his descendants from semen of despised water, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Who made everything He has created good and He began the creation of man from clay.

Then He made his offspring from semen of despised water (male and female sexual discharge). (DR: it is not for mankind to be arrogant bearing in mind our origins).

Then He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him the soul (created by Allaah for that person); and He gave you hearing (ears), sight (eyes) and hearts. Little is the thanks you give!”

[al-Sajdah 32:7-9]"
source: https://islamqa.info/en/13286

 

[TokiEl]

Allaah taught Adam all the names:

“And He taught Adam all the names (of everything)”

[al-Baqarah 2:31 – interpretation of the meaning]

Genesis 2 18"Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

23The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."

 

[Serveto]

Genesis 2 18"Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

If your perfectly legitimate point is to show differences, I think, to expand the idea somewhat, it is well understood that the Quran is at variance with the Old Testament on many key issues, not just "original sin" and the naming of animals. I, personally, see no reason for Muslims to apologize for that. For one thing, and it directly relates to the topic of this thread, unlike the Old Testament, the Quran doesn't have God establish the rights of primogeniture, or the rights of the first-born male child, only to then make him seemingly a party to circumventing those laws by the often dodgy "switching of hands," the transferring of the first-born rights to the second-born, which seems to be a sort of leitmotif of the Old Testament. As I read it, in the Quran, for instance, Isaac and Ishmael are treated with equal respect, whereas, in contrast, and leaving Isaac and Ishmael aside for the moment, the authors of the Old Testament not only posit fratricidal -ultimately racial- conflict between Esau and Jacob, but seem also to make God side with the one, the second-born (!), over the other:

"I have loved you [Jacob, aka Israel], saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
(Malachi 1:2-3)

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
(Romans 9:13)
​

I have never found verses quite like these in the Quran. In fact, the Quran is comparatively free of plots, convolutions, twisting and switching in many respects, and that, as far as I am concerned, is one of its comparative strengths, not weaknesses.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I do not know if sister GS is still here, apologies sis I will respond for now and you can add if you wish later:
Claire no worries it is good to understand someone with a different perspective thanks for inquiring:

"Whenever a person commits a sin, he alone is responsible for that sin. Every person is responsible for his or her own actions. Consequently, no human being who has ever lived is responsible for the mistakes made by Adam and Eve. God says in the Quran:

“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden.” (Quran 35:18)

Adam and Eve made a mistake, they repented sincerely, and God in His infinite wisdom forgave them. Humankind is not doomed to be punished, generation after generation. The sins of the father are not visited upon the sons.

“Then they both ate of that tree, and so their private parts appeared to them, and they began to stick on themselves the leaves from Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness and gave him guidance.” (Quran 20:121-122)

Above all Islam teaches us that God is the most forgiving, and will go on forgiving, repeatedly. Part of being human is making mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes are made without deliberation or a bad intention, but sometimes we knowingly and deliberately sin and do wrong to others. Therefore as human beings, we are constantly in need of forgiveness.

The life of this world is fraught with trials and tribulations, however God did not abandon humankind to theses tests. God equipped humankind with an intellect and the ability to make choices and decisions. God also gave us words of guidance. As our creator, He is well aware of our nature and eager to guide us on the straight path that leads to eternal bliss.

The Quran is God’s final revelation and it is applicable for all of humankind; all people, all places, all times. Throughout the Quran God continually asks us to turn to Him in repentance and ask for His forgiveness. This is the road to salvation. This is our rescue from destruction.

“And whoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks God’s forgiveness, he will find God Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Quran 4:10)

“And O my people! Ask forgiveness of your Lord and then repent to Him, He will send you (from the sky) abundant rain, and add strength to your strength, so do not turn away as criminals, disbelievers in the Oneness of God.” (Quran 11:52)

“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)

Quran is not only a book of guidance, it is a book of hope. In it God’s love, mercy, and forgiveness are obvious and thus humankind is reminded not to give in to despair. No matter what sins a person may have committed if he resolutely turns to God, seeking forgiveness his salvation is assured.

Prophet Muhammad described sin as black spots covering the heart. He said, “Indeed if a believer sins, a black spot covers his heart. If he repents, stops the sin, and seeks forgiveness for it, his heart becomes clean again. If he persists (instead of repenting), it increases until it covers his heart…”

Salvation in Islam is not required because of the stain of original sin. Salvation is required because humankind is imperfect and in need of God’s forgiveness and love. In order to understand the concept of salvation correctly we must understand other topics embedded in salvation. These are, understanding the importance of tawheed, or the Oneness of God, and knowing how to repent sincerely ."
source: http://www.thedeenshow.com/salvation-in-islam

Thank you for that, desertrose.

I still cannot find How sin can be forgiven if God is just.

God is just, if He doesn’t punish sin, where do we seek justice?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

you know Claire, I recall you saying the same thing in the last iteration of the VC forums. I know that Tarek, myself and others there explained in detail to you the Muslim perspective on salvation. I remember at one point shortly thereafter, you went absolutely berzerk and hurled vile and slanderous accusations against Islam, Muhammad and Muslims.

I remember it quite well which is why I clarified in my first remark that I am not looking to debate, I posted for those readers whose hearts Almghty God has opened to the truth.

And speaking of truth, you have no interest in knowing the Muslim perspective on anything religious-wise except to use it to attack our pure way of life. I am speaking from experience with you, and as a word of advice to any other Muslims who get pulled into a discussion on Islam with Claire.

That was at the very beginning of the previous VC board, and I was lashing out in defense of my faith because of something that was said by another user, it wasn’t anyone on the boards currently (that still have the same user name), but I’m sure some would remember him, he was the most active Muslim poster on the previous boards, & for the life of me I cannot remember his name, but I would recognize it if I saw it, but it was not Tarikko, who I actually really liked, and got along with quite well, despite our different beliefs.

Yes, I did go quite berserk in one of my posts back then, because I had read some things from the Quran about Muhammad that I found...unsavory.
I also sincerely apologized and acknowledged that my comment was out of line, and then decided to try to understand the perspective of Muslims, and what they believe & why, rather than attacking their beliefs, which isn’t a productive way to communicate with anyone. I have also not repeated the behavior, & even though I ask questions about Islam, it is to understand a different point of view.....not because I am trying to lure anyone into a debate.

I do not think ANY religion is above questioning, even my own, and if you have questions about Christianity, I am happy to answer them to the best of my ability, without feeling that I am being attacked.


It seems that the other Muslims on this board have been able to forgive & forget, and I appreciate that from them. I am relieved & grateful to know that they do realize I am only human, and not perfect, so I do make mistakes & I do my best to try not to repeat them.
God Bless.

 

[grateful servant]

That was at the very beginning of the previous VC board, and I was lashing out in defense of my faith because of something that was said by another user, it wasn’t anyone on the boards currently (that still have the same user name), but I’m sure some would remember him, he was the most active Muslim poster on the previous boards, & for the life of me I cannot remember his name, but I would recognize it if I saw it, but it was not Tarikko, who I actually really liked, and got along with quite well, despite our different beliefs.

Yes, I did go quite berserk in one of my posts back then, because I had read some things from the Quran about Muhammad that I found...unsavory.
I also sincerely apologized and acknowledged that my comment was out of line, and then decided to try to understand the perspective of Muslims, and what they believe & why, rather than attacking their beliefs, which isn’t a productive way to communicate with anyone. I have also not repeated the behavior, & even though I ask questions about Islam, it is to understand a different point of view.....not because I am trying to lure anyone into a debate.

I do not think ANY religion is above questioning, even my own, and if you have questions about Christianity, I am happy to answer them to the best of my ability, without feeling that I am being attacked.


It seems that the other Muslims on this board have been able to forgive & forget, and I appreciate that from them. I am relieved & grateful to know that they do realize I am only human, and not perfect, so I do make mistakes & I do my best to try not to repeat them.
God Bless.

Whatever. The point is that you received a detailed reply to this question of yours back then, so why bringing it up again now? However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are sincere in your questioning due to forgetting what you were already told. We will see how this goes.

 

[DesertRose]

I still cannot find How sin can be forgiven if God is just.

God is just, if He doesn’t punish sin, where do we seek justice?

Hey Claire there is a difference regarding whom the sin is against. If the sin is against another human being they have the right to forgive and forget or extract justice. If not forgiven that person will be confronted with these sins on earth and/or on the day of judgement.(some sins can not be fully dealt with on earth).
If the sin is against the Creator and the person is a believer, they are required to cease the sin and ask for forgiveness. After these actions we are not allowed to despair of the mercy of Allah.

Here is a better explanation then mine...: -).


"Islam does not teach that Allah's Will is arbitrary. In fact, Allah's Will is exercised or expressed in accordance to His Divine nature and Wisdom. Sin is not a thing - that exists by itself independent of volitional actors - which needs punishing when committed. A woman is not sin, neither are our eyes, or our hearts. But the action of the eye or the heart when looking at a woman with lust is a sin. Sin does not exist as an entity - wrongly conceived in Christianity - which you can punish. Punishing the actors of sin has a meaning and not punishing the sin.


We do not believe that Allah needs to express both His Mercy and Justice on every individual at the same time at all times. His Justice is carried out on every individual in perfect wisdom. No one will be wronged, for everyone gets their due (as good and bad is explained through the prophets and messengers at all times in human history). Any good one has done or any bad one has done - be they small or big - will be accounted for. That's the Justice of God.



His Mercy however, though in a general sense is open to all in this life (as understood from His name Al-Rahman). The Qur'an states:

Surah 3:31

Say (Oh Muhammad): If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Here we see that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is commanded to tell the people that they must follow his guidance, which was revealed to him by Allah in order to receive Allah's love. Allah says:

Surah 21:107

And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

So here we see that Allah is offering His love and mercy to everyone in the form of Islam. If one rejects Islam then he or she is rejecting Allah's offer of love in turn. It's not an issue of Allah not wanting to love the person, but an issue of the person not allowing Allah's love to reach him.

Allah has declared to humanity about His nature:

Surah 7:156

My Mercy encompasses all things

Surah 6:12

He has taken it upon Himself to be Merciful

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said:


When Allah created the creation He put down in his Book, which is with Him upon the Throne: Verily, My mercy prevails over My wrath. (Sahih Muslim 4939)

He has however, in a specific sense, reserved the abundant mercy (Surah 7:156) for the believers in the hereafter (as understood from His name Al-Raheem).


God by taking on to Himself to be Merciful, which prevails over His wrath (i.e. punishing through Justice) has told us how He expresses these two apparently contradictory attributes. His attributes therefore are complimentary.


There are two kinds of sins that could occur. One is sin against God and the other is sin against creation. If we sin against God, it is entirely within God's prerogative to forgive us. If we sin against humanity more than one thing could occur. 1) He whom I sinned against could forgive me for my crime or 2) God could forgive me for my crime and then recompense the victim in order to ensure overall justice.

Furthermore, God could punish me in this life for my crimes without punishing me in hell. For example, he could punish me with trials in this life. He could punish me in the grave. He could punish me and wipe out my sins by making me feel pain when the angel of death is pulling out my soul. He could temporarily punish me in hell for any sins that I committed.


This doesn't contradict God being All Merciful. We don't define All Just and All Merciful as meaning that God should be fully just and fully merciful with a human being at all given times. Surely, Muslims and Christians alike would agree that God won't be merciful to the disbelievers on the Day of Judgment for instance. Rather, when we say that God is All Merciful or All Just we mean to say that His ability to exercise these two attributes is infinitely vast, but whether He decides to exercise them is entirely up to His will that is in accordance with His nature.


Also, we should bear in mind that Justice does not always denote vengeance or punishment. Sometimes forgiveness and display of mercy could be an act of justice. Allah's forgiving someone for a sin without punishing him for it does not mean that Allah compromised His Justice. Human beings are created weak and are meant to fall into sin from time to time. There is no reason to believe that we deserve to be punished for every single thing that we do. We will expand more on this point below."

source: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/answering_common_questions_on_salvation_that_christians_pose_to_muslims

 

[Daciple]

So reading the above it appears that Allah isnt the same God that gave the Law of Moses, or is he?

 

[grateful servant]

So reading the above it appears that Allah isnt the same God that gave the Law of Moses, or is he?

You could read the Quran and find out for yourself. Moses is mentioned in the Quran more than any other prophet or person.