"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

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I think it is also important to mention that when we consider the law of Moses including sacrifice. There were prophets after this who had a different message, but not one of them had a different law. The cohesion in regard to this subject is seen throughout the Bible with every prophet and fulfilled in Christ. This is another reason Muhammad is out on an island by himself that no prophet seen anywhere in scripture shares. All the prophets agree on the law. All the apostles agree on the fulfillment of the law through Christ. Muhammad removes the law as though the first five books of scripture were all corrupted and never applied the way they have been for thousands of years of recorded Jewish history beginning before Christ.
All of God's Prophets from Adam to Muhammad had the same message: Worship the Lord your God only and reject all false gods. It's that simple. The OT confirms this, Jesus Christ confirmed it and Muhammad confirmed and sealed it. All of your wishful thinking and pointless blather can't change that fact.
 






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" Allah assures that Jesus will be saved from the Jews and that his term and what is destined for him is guaranteed for him and that Allah will cause Jesus to ascend unto Him. The Bible agrees that Jesus ascended unto heaven (Luke 24:51), but the main dispute is about what happened in between: the alleged crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus (pbuh).

Allah says in Qur'an that they neither killed him nor crucified him, but it was made to appear so unto them. In many places in Qur'an, it has been mentioned that Jews used to kill the prophets unjustly. But in the case of Jesus (pbuh) it vehemently denies that they killed him or that they crucified him. This is because Qur'an will not contain anything except truth.

Surah 4, Verses 157 & 158:

“and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”




http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/jesuscrucified.htm
Also, why would God stop Jesus from being crucified(atoning for our sins), when that is the very reason God manifested in flesh to begin with?

“The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture;”......,,.......those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts, they have no knowledge thereof??......

Why does it say that??

It’s definitely not true. I mean, I disagree but I am certainly not full of doubt about it. I am certain that the Gospel of Jesus Christ as written in the Holy Bible is indeed true.

I had heard the Gospel before, but wasn’t saved because I did not understand it.

But what’s interesting is, that when I asked God to show me HIS truth, (whatever it was, and whether it was a religion I “wanted” it to be or not) it was when I wanted to know the TRUTH with every bit of my heart, soul & mind, THAT was when a moment of enlightenment, like a lightbulb came on I suddenly UNDERSTOOD...I could FEEL & sense the presence of the Holy Spirit upon me...giving me the supernatural understanding of the Gospel, and in the blink of an eye, I KNEW I was being offered salvation...I just KNEW it.
It was like God was letting me “feel” How He (in His pure Holiness) actually saw me. I used to think I was a pretty good person, & by man’s standard, I suppose I was.
But God’s standard is sooo much higher, it is absolute perfection & when I saw myself as He showed me, I saw for the first time how utterly depraved, wicked & hopelessly pathetic I really was. It was as if my heart was blackened & stained with sin & I couldn’t even stand the sight of it.
And I had thought I was acceptable. My pride melted away. I felt thoroughly ashamed, guilty & hideous. I was convicted. I was literally TERRIFIED that God would strike me dead on the spot.
Instead, He gave me understanding of the Gospel then & there. And offered me a gift I knew I didn’t deserve & that I couldn’t earn even if I had a thousand lifetimes worth of good deeds it would never be enough to erase even the tiniest white lie.
I took that gift & I prayed to receive it, and that God would save me from Hell.

I knew I was saved at that moment, thanks to Jesus. The huge weight of a life of sins was lifted & I felt free.

Peace entered my spirit & replaced doubt, guilt & fear.

God’s pure love is so potent, true & indescribable, surpassing even the love a parent has for their child. It is beyond even our own understanding.

The love of God is unlike any other.. ...

BUT ....apart from salvation by grace through faith ALONE in Christ Jesus, God’s love cannot be realized.

Without believing, one cannot receive, because it is through the selfless love of Christ ‘s willing sacrifice, that God expresses the greatest demonstration of love toward us.


00F36ACC-379C-42D0-9A27-352C2E751273.jpeg
 






Yahda

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Right. Christianity, without Judaism's permission or concurrence, claims to be the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law, and Christianity appends its "New" Testament to the "Old," thus forming a single compilation of books Christians call the Holy Bible, which Christians accept in its entirety.

Islam, as I imperfectly understand (and Muslims please correct me when necessary), with its Quran, stands apart, appending itself to neither the Old nor the New Testament, thus also verifying neither, yet comments upon the various divinely revealed "books" which preceded it: the Torah, Zabur (psalms), Injil (gospel), etc. Combined with sometimes remarkable respect, it also has more than a few reminders, threats, and definite admonition, advice, cease and desist orders, etc., directed specifically to the "People" of those "books," Jews and Christians.


As I see it, orthodox Christians accepted the Old Testament books as inspired scripture, and showed, by means of those books, how Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law, saying that animal sacrifices were a precursor to the ultimate sacrifice of the High Priest himself.

Islam, on the other hand, stands apart, often though not invariably claiming, even if only on faith alone, that the originally pure Torah and Injil are essentially lost to posterity. The ones in hand have been corrupted by priests, scribes and others. It might be true, then, that the Law in its present form "states clearly that blood atonement is needed for forgiveness," yet even that, when it comes to interpretation, is arguable (hello @Yahda and [Judaism's] Maimonides).


I thought that was where you were headed, so I met you there.



Of course I cannot speak for Allah, nor even for Muslims, for that matter, but it might be because Muslims, generally, don't accept the Old Testament in its present form. They certainly are not alone in suggesting that the Old Testament has undergone serious revision and redaction. Quite independently of the Quran, the so called Higher Critics and those subscribing to the "Documentary Hypothesis" of the Bible have arrived at similar conclusions.


I, myself, tend to avoid forced "either/or's," of being painted into a corner, and am able to arrive at other conclusions, or allow for other possibilities, but if that is the conclusion you must reach, then by all means do so.


I appreciate how thorough you are in your various inquiries and always enjoy sharing and comparing notes.
I don’t think anything God says is arguable. It’s only arguable when you are trying to corporate what God said with a beLIEf. I don’t have any beliefs to uphold. Therefore I am able to take God at his word.

Psalms 69:30 I will sing praise to the name of God, and I will magnify him with thanksgiving.

THIS WILL PLEASE HIM MORE THAN A BULL

1st Samuel 15:22 Samuel then said “ do the Lord take as much pleasure in burn offerings and sacrifices as in obeying His voice. LOOK! TO OBEY IS BETTER THAN A SACRIFICE

Jeremiah 7:22 For on that day when I brought your forefathers out of the land of Egypt I DID NOT speak with them or command them concerning whole burnt offerings and sacrifices BUT I did give command to OBEY MY VOICE.....you must walk in all the way that I command you so that it may go well with you

Psalms 51:16 For you do not want a sacrifice- otherwise I would give it. You do not find delight in whole burnt offerings

Psalms 50:8 I do not reprove you because of your sacrifices nor because of your whole burn offerings that are constantly before me

I DO NOT NEED to take a bull from your house nor goats from your pen

FOR EVERY WILD ANIMAL OF THE FOREST IS MINES !!!

Even the beast upon a thousand mountains

I know every bird of the mountain

The countless animals of the fields ARE MINE !!

IF I WAS HUNGRY I WOULDN’T TELL YOU ( preach God lol )

For the productive land and EVERYTHING EVERYTHING in it is mine.

Will I eat the flesh of bulls and drink the blood of goats ?

OFFER THANKS GIVING AS YOUR SACRIFICE TO GOD”

So again. The only ones who feel the need to argue a sacrifice are those with MOTIVE to uphold beLIEfs.
 






DesertRose

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Also, why would God stop Jesus from being crucified(atoning for our sins), when that is the very reason God manifested in flesh to begin with?

“The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture;”......,,.......those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts, they have no knowledge thereof??......

Why does it say that??

It’s definitely not true. I mean, I disagree but I am certainly not full of doubt about it. I am certain that the Gospel of Jesus Christ as written in the Holy Bible is indeed true.
Hi Claire the verse was a response to those who claimed they killed him:
PS Did you look at the first video with the Rev and Dr. Philips I think it would clear up a few things.
Remember that in Islam, Adam and Eve were forgiven after repenting and as such set an example for their progeny, us. Therefore, there was not a need for a blood atonement.
In Islam salvation and personal responsibility for sins is a mainstay from the time of Prophet Adam peace be upon him who attained prophet-hood after he repented from his sins all the way through all the prophets peace be upon them all. Sin can not be inherited hence we did not inherit Prophet Adam's sin and Prophet Jesus did not need to atone for Adam's sin or for anyone's sin.Peace be upon all of these Prophets..
I believe it is quite unfair that God would strike you dead for Adam's sin.
Claire please note that I feel transformed, blessed, uplifted,and encouraged in my beliefs and wish the same tranquility and certainty for all.
I understand discussions on salvation and atonement evolved through time and that this particular interpretation was made the official one at the council of Nicea.
It is said early Christians such as James and Arius believed that Jesus peace be upon him was a prophet of God and not God.They were called dissenters in the early church and were later called heretics
In Islam we believe that it is the Creator who guides people to Islam and we can only give the information or convey the message.

“And say: ‘The truth is from your Lord.’ Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve.”Quran 18:29

“Say: ‘O you mankind! Now truth (i.e. the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad), has come to you from your Lord. So whosoever receives guidance, he does so for the good of his own self; and whosoever goes astray, he does so to his own loss; and I am not (set) over you as a Wakeel (disposer of affairs to oblige you for guidance).’” [10:108]

“Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.”Quran [28:56]

“Say: ‘With Allah is the perfect proof and argument, (i.e. the Oneness of Allah, the sending of His Messengers and His Holy Books, to mankind); had He so willed, He would indeed have guided you all.’”Quran(6:149)

Salvation has not changed since the beginning of time.Worship your Lord he is the One God and do not give equate God with other partners.
This has always been the message and the religion of God is One unchanged, God is One and mankind is One.
Take Care and thanks for the respectful and caring tone.
May we all pass this crucial test of our acceptance of the correct guidance.Ameen.
We ask the Creator of the heavens of the earth for guidance for all of us. Ameen.
 






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Hi Claire the verse was a response to those who claimed they killed him:
PS Did you look at the first video with the Rev and Dr. Philips I think it would clear up a few things.
Remember that in Islam, Adam and Eve were forgiven after repenting and as such set an example for their progeny, us. Therefore, there was not a need for a blood atonement.
In Islam salvation and personal responsibility for sins is a mainstay from the time of Prophet Adam peace be upon him who attained prophet-hood after he repented from his sins all the way through all the prophets peace be upon them all. Sin can not be inherited hence we did not inherit Prophet Adam's sin and Prophet Jesus did not need to atone for Adam's sin or for anyone's sin.Peace be upon all of these Prophets..
I believe it is quite unfair that God would strike you dead for Adam's sin.
Claire please note that I feel transformed, blessed, uplifted,and encouraged in my beliefs and wish the same tranquility and certainty for all.
I understand discussions on salvation and atonement evolved through time and that this particular interpretation was made the official one at the council of Nicea.
It is said early Christians such as James and Arius believed that Jesus peace be upon him was a prophet of God and not God.They were called dissenters in the early church and were later called heretics
In Islam we believe that it is the Creator who guides people to Islam and we can only give the information or convey the message.

“And say: ‘The truth is from your Lord.’ Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve.”Quran 18:29

“Say: ‘O you mankind! Now truth (i.e. the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad), has come to you from your Lord. So whosoever receives guidance, he does so for the good of his own self; and whosoever goes astray, he does so to his own loss; and I am not (set) over you as a Wakeel (disposer of affairs to oblige you for guidance).’” [10:108]

“Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.”Quran [28:56]

“Say: ‘With Allah is the perfect proof and argument, (i.e. the Oneness of Allah, the sending of His Messengers and His Holy Books, to mankind); had He so willed, He would indeed have guided you all.’”Quran(6:149)

Salvation has not changed since the beginning of time.Worship your Lord he is the One God and do not give equate God with other partners.
This has always been the message and the religion of God is One unchanged, God is One and mankind is One.
Take Care and thanks for the respectful and caring tone.
May we all pass this crucial test of our acceptance of the correct guidance.Ameen.
We ask the Creator of the heavens of the earth for guidance for all of us. Ameen.
I agree, salvation has not changed. It's always been by faith.

For Christians, that salvation has always been through Christ, Who is God manifest in flesh.
In the OT, it was not through animal sacrifices (God asked for sacrifices for obedience, not because they removed sin).

The animal sacrifices were merely a picture of the sacrifice to come by Jesus Christ in the (then) future.

That is why so many knew who Jesus was when He came, because the OT prophecies His coming hundreds of times. Their faith was in the coming Messiah, Christians faith is in the same, now revealed, Messiah.

We have faith in the same God, as the OT people, and there is only ONE God.

The word "Christian" appears for the first time in the NT at Antioch, but the OT believers were Christians because they trusted God to provide the Messiah, Who takes away the sin of the world.

Christians do not believe we are punished for the sins of Adam & Eve. We are not. They were already punished for their sin because they were purged from the Garden of Eden. We are not born guilty of sin (only Catholics believe that, NOT Christians).

Because they are the original "parents" of all mankind, we have inherited their sin NATURE (not their sin), just as any child inherits his/her hair color, eye color, calm or wild demeanor from their parents.

You say you have peace , but how?

How do you know what Allah will forgive or not? If you died right now (God forbid), HOW do you know which sins are forgiven?

It's impossible to ask for forgiveness of ALL sins committed, because you could have forgotten some, but we all know God sees ALL.

What happens if God brings up one single lie that you forgot about?

Do you trust your memory is as good as God's?


If He just makes an exception, then God is not just.

Do you trust that you measure up to God's standard of perfection?

Peace.
 






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How about this TokEi ......God can just forgive if we cease our sins and repent?

"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it." Hadith Qudsi

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." Quran (39:53)




I do not know about commie masons but we are not allowed to masquerade as people of another faith.
We believe God guides whom he wills.
ToKei since the common word is not for you.
We can agree to disagree.
"For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." Quran109:6
If God “guides whom he wills”, does that mean He only guides who HE wants to, and that He will damn to Hell anyone He wants to?
 






Kung Fu

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Where is the justice in that ?
Please, stop with your ludicrous statements. You talk about justice when you had the Father kill his own innocent son as a ransom to Himself because He needed a debt to be paid to Himself to save the lives of others. How in the world can that be considered be just? Not only is it cruel but it doesn't make any sense. Everyone is responsible for themselves or do you blame others for the crimes you commit?
 






Kung Fu

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If God “guides whom he wills”, does that mean He only guides who HE wants to, and that He will damn to Hell anyone He wants to?
Good actions and genuine faith only begets more good actions and genuine faith. A liar can only tell more lies to cover up the other lies thus a liar further digs himself deeper into the grave.
 






Serveto

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Not that this is part of the conversation but I just wanted to make this distinction, Judaism is not the Faith of Abraham...
I am Switzerland during WWII, neutral, but not always perfectly so. I compare and contrast the three so called "Abrahamic" religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and, in that process, try to understand what each says first about itself, and then what it says about the others. Your claim that Christianity is the "fulfillment" of the Law is countered by Judaism, as you know, and has been for 2,000 years.

Daciple said:
Well unless they decided to say it is Prophesying Muhammad or some other aspect of Islam, then all of the sudden the Old or New Testament verses are legit.
How do you determine if something is legitimate? By means of your Bible and guidance, discernment from the Holy Spirit, I assume. They have a Quran, a tool, which they use as a criterion to determine legitimacy, and if, by use of that criterion, they find something they consider true in an otherwise potentially corrupted, radacted text, they identify it as true. In either case, yours or theirs, I don't find the process itself strange, even if different, often opposing conclusions are reached.

Daciple said:
If Islam and Christianity/ the Faith of Abraham were from the same God then all 3 books would come to agreement, however we have 2 that agree ...
Sorry to interrupt, but please allow me to question the premise. We have two Testaments that you claim are in agreement. Again, there is an entire religion, Judaism, which claims, in essence, that its books were usurped by Christians for misguided purposes and applied to a false messiah. In other words, your claims are disputed by counter claims.

Daciple said:
... and one that stands in stark contrast to everything held within the other two, especially concerning the Method of Salvation....
As I see it, in sum, if I disregard the scriptures @Yahda consistently provides and temporarily accept your premise that no other method of salvation than blood sacrifice is found in the OT, it seems to reduce to this: Judaism (perpetual animal sacrifices combined with repentance); Christianity (one-time human sacrifice combined with repentance); Islam (repentance). The contrast is stark, indeed, but repentance seems a common factor in all three.

Daciple said:
Right I understand, it is lost however except when they want to make arguments from it to support their Islamic views and prophets. Very disingenious in my view. Either it is lost and corrupt or it isnt, either it is wrong or it can be used for Prophecy.
More either/or's? I see more nuance, and don't consider it disingenuous. By way of contrast, if some gnostic sect of Christianity had arisen to become a dominant religion, let's say, and they had the Nag Hammadi books appended to the Old Testament and were going about preaching, I wouldn't consider you disingenuous -possibly mistaken, but not disingenuous- if you held the New Testament books as canon, as the Criterion, and used them to point out both truths and falsehoods in the Nag Hammadi books.

Daciple said:
I personally couldnt view the Old Testament as corrupt in places and then turn to it and say here is parts that I am going to use to build up my Religion that also says the Old Testament is corrupt and wrong.
That would be silly.

Daciple said:
As for arguments for the need of Blood for Salvation, we can all easily make arguments against any and everything we want, but when the Scripture says without any doubt, Blood is needed for Atonement, others interpretations to nullify this means nothing. All they are doing is trying to find a way to keep their made up Religion in tact and have forgiveness of Sin afforded to them apart from the clear Scripture that says that Blood is needed.
Jews have been celebrating Yom Kippur, the so called high holiday, during which, as I understand, they essentially claim their collective sins are forgiven, for 2,000 years, and they have done so without blood or animal sacrifice. They are able to do this with scriptural justification, using the Old Testament. Evidently, they read and interpret it quite differently to you, and if you consider theirs a "made up" religion, then of course you may.

Daciple said:
What the Law says is what the Law says, God wouldnt put in the Law over and over the need for Blood Atonement if it was something that could be just ignored. From the day Moses was taken out of Egypt until the Jesus came the Law showed Atonement is needed to escape Death. Allah or Yahda cant nullify this fact, yet in Islam there is no account for the entire Culture and Law established by God....
I hear @Yahda presenting relevant OT scriptures, not necessarily nullifying anything. Maimonides, in his arguments against animal sacrifices, quotes many of the same verses.

Daciple said:
Save needing to believe parts of it successfully predict Muhammad or the rise of Islam o_O
This is related to what was said above.

I said:
They certainly are not alone in suggesting that the Old Testament has undergone serious revision and redaction. Quite independently of the Quran, the so called Higher Critics and those subscribing to the "Documentary Hypothesis" of the Bible have arrived at similar conclusions.
Daciple said:
Do they nullify the overwhelming number of times that Blood is required for Forgiveness in the Law? Does this in anyway nullfiy the actual History of Israel that was built 100% around the Temple and Sacrifices at the Temple?
Have you heard of the Essenes? They are an interesting lot. We don't read of them much in the NT, but they had a sort of puritanical, ascetic counter-culture going on in the Dead Sea region, and, as I recall, didn't think too highly of animal, blood sacrifices and the Temple cult then happening at Jerusalem, despite the fact that they both read and accepted the Law and the Prophets. At the time of Jesus, immediately prior to, they were in the Dead Sea region, anxiously awaiting their "teacher of righteousness." I, personally, think they may have gotten one.

Daciple said:
So what are the other conclusions or possibilities you can reach if we have God give us the Law of Moses that necessitates the need for Blood Atonement and then builds entire Country and Culture that built a Temple where thousands of Animals were Sacrificed for hundreds of years and then have the same God supposedly ignore all of this and say salvation has nothing to do with Blood or Sacrifice and give Salvation by the way Islam does as described in this thread?
Authors of religious books make God change his mind a lot. For instance, in the OT, God takes Joshua into battle to commit genocide against seven nations, in some cases hanging their severed heads on sticks toward the sun, wiping them out down to their women, children and cattle, but is said to have incarnated in the year approx.1 AD to later teach pacifism in the Sermon on the Mount. My own personal mode of operating in many of these discussions is to remain elastic, to allow for, if not necessarily accept, sometimes wide variances, and many, many possibilities.
 






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Yahda

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@Serveto Psalms 119:155 SALVATION is FAR away from the wicked for they have not searched your regulations.

Isaiah 43:11 I-I am God and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR

Isaiah 45:21.....There is no other God but me. A righteous God and savior there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved all the ends of the earth. For I am God and there is no one else

By myself I have sworn. The word has gone out of my mouth and it will not return

TO ME ( not anyone else ) every knee will bow and every tongue will confess loyalty

Isaiah 42:8 I am God That is my name.

I give my glory to no one else nor my praise to graven images.

Hosea 13:4 But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you knew no God except me and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR”

It’s what “thus says the Lord” vs what every one else said. I choose to OBEY and listen to what THUS SAYS THE LORD MY GOD. Remember I don’t have beLIEf to uphold. So there is no need for me to twist, turn, and add to the word.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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@Serveto

Just reading through and catching up, one thing occurred to me...

If God is both real, and with a particular nature and personality, and if we live in a universe where perhaps a third of the angelic beings he created are in rebellion to Him, under a being who would wish to supplant the Most High, what might we expect?

For me, I might expect closely related yet simultaneously contradictory narratives (rather like the psy-ops so loved by conspiracy forums). I might expect evil inversions of things that were not evil (Jesus willingly shedding his blood for you, Serv, as opposed to the unwilling human sacrifice). In short, I might expect a wall of voices, and in amongst it all, a still, small voice telling the truth.

Jeremiah 29

"12Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
 






Kung Fu

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@Serveto

Just reading through and catching up, one thing occurred to me...

If God is both real, and with a particular nature and personality, and if we live in a universe where perhaps a third of the angelic beings he created are in rebellion to Him, under a being who would wish to supplant the Most High, what might we expect?

For me, I might expect closely related yet simultaneously contradictory narratives (rather like the psy-ops so loved by conspiracy forums). I might expect evil inversions of things that were not evil (Jesus willingly shedding his blood for you, Serv, as opposed to the unwilling human sacrifice). In short, I might expect a wall of voices, and in amongst it all, a still, small voice telling the truth.

Jeremiah 29

"12Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

-Jeremiah 8:8
 






Yahda

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@Serveto Deuteronomy 30:11 now this commandment that I am commanding you today is not to difficult for you, nor is it beyond your reach. It is not in the heavens, so that you have to say “ who will ascend to the heavens and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it. Nor is it on the other side of the sea so that you have to say, who will cross over and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it.

FOR THE WORD IS VERY NEAR TO YOU. In your own mouth and in your own heart so that you may do it.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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@Serveto

"And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

When will this happen? My take - during the time of "Jacob's Trouble".

Matthew 23

"37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

When do the Jews get to see the Lord again? At the end of the Tribulation.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I could probably find that by kick-starting a search engine, but do you have a good synopsis, or explanation, for what is meant by "Jacob's Trouble?" If so, please direct me to it.

Question: "What is the time of Jacob’s trouble?"

Answer: The phrase "the time of Jacob's trouble" is a quote from Jeremiah 30:7 which says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (KJV).

In the previous verses of Jeremiah 30, we find that the Lord is speaking to Jeremiah the prophet about Judah and Israel (30:3-4). In verse 3, the Lord promises that one day in the future, He will bring both Judah and Israel back to the land that He had promised their forefathers. Verse 5 describes a time of great fear and trembling. Verse 6 describes this time in a way that pictures men going through the pains of childbirth, again indicating a time of agony. But there is hope for Judah and Israel, for though this is called "the time of Jacob's distress" (NASB), the Lord promises He will save Jacob (referring to Judah and Israel) out of this time of great trouble (verse 7).

In Jeremiah 30:10-11 the Lord says, “‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD.”

Also, the Lord says He will destroy the nations who held Judah and Israel in captivity, and He will never allow Jacob to be completely destroyed. However, it should be noted that the Lord describes this as a time of discipline for His people. He says of Jacob, “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”

Jeremiah 30:7 says, "That day is great, so that none is like it.” The only time period that fits this description is the period of the Tribulation. This time is unparalleled in history.

Jesus described the Tribulation using some of the same imagery as Jeremiah. In Matthew 24:6-8, He stated that the appearance of false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes are "the beginning of birth pains."

Paul, too, described the Tribulation as birth pains. First Thessalonians 5:3 says, "While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." This event follows the Rapture and the removal of the Church, in 4:13-18. In 5:9, Paul reemphasizes the absence of the Church from this time period by saying, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." The wrath spoken of here is God's judgment on the unbelieving world and His discipline of Israel during the Tribulation.

These “birth pains” are described in detail in Revelation 6-12 Part of the purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel back to the Lord.

For those who have received Christ as Savior from sin, the time of Jacob's trouble is something for which we should praise the Lord, for it demonstrates that God keeps His promises. He has promised us eternal life through Christ our Lord, and He has promised land, seed, and blessing to Abraham and his physical descendants. However, before He fulfills those promises, He will lovingly but firmly discipline the nation of Israel so that they return to Him.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jacobs-trouble.html
 






DesertRose

Superstar
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
5,528
You say you have peace , but how?

How do you know what Allah will forgive or not? If you died right now (God forbid), HOW do you know which sins are forgiven?

It's impossible to ask for forgiveness of ALL sins committed, because you could have forgotten some, but we all know God sees ALL.

What happens if God brings up one single lie that you forgot about?

Do you trust your memory is as good as God's?
Hi Claire, regarding the topic of sins:
After the importance of sound belief in the One God, we have been given many methods whereby we gain rewards and expiate sins as well..

1.We have collective supplications for the repentance of all sins.
2. Performing prayers.
3.Performing ablution
4.Attending the Friday prayer
5.Waiting for prayer for example:
"Shall I not tell you of something by means of which Allaah erases sins and raises you in status?" (this is in regards to our level in the next life, In Islam paradise has many levels. Those who are best in conduct will be closer to Creator.)
They said: "Yes, O Messenger of Allaah."
He s.a.w.s. said: "Doing wudoo' (purifying our body before prayers) well even when it is difficult,( DR: e.g when it is too cold etc)
taking many steps to the mosques and waiting for prayer after prayer. That is (equivalent) to guarding the frontier."
(Sahih Muslim)
6.Doing good deeds.
7.Performing hajj or umrah the pilgrimage (erases all sins for the sincere) and lesser pilgrimage.
8. Fasting
9. Giving in charity
10.Asking for the forgiveness from those whom we have wronged (after ceasing the wrong)
11. Being kind to animals e.g
Narrated Abû Huraira radhiAllâhu `anhu: Allâh's Apostle sallAllâhu `alayhi wa sallam said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allâh, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allâh forgave her because of that." [Sahîh Al-Bukhari]
12. Removing obstacles from a path e.g:
Allah's Messenger
said,
"While a man was on the way, he found a thorny branch of a tree on the way and removed it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him (his sins)."
(Bukhari)
13. Observing patience in a time of hardship.
14. Every good deed is charity. Verily, it is a good deed to meet your brother with a smiling face, and to pour what is left from your bucket into the vessel of your brother.
Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 1970, Grade: Sahih
(please note, that people who accept Islam as a way of life as in convert have all their sins removed as well.)

There are more ways than this but I hope this gives you an idea. We get rewarded and we also expiate sins by living a life of righteousness.

Regarding inner peace:

Islam urges its adherents first to have proper faith and then to stay away or eschew wrongdoing/sinning either to self and others.
Sinning takes away from the tranquility of the heart.
An example would be soldiers who were a party to the oppression of others. Even when they have a free pass from the authorities their hearts will not find peace.Many who oppress others or who sin constantly lead lives of quiet desperation and as such resort to escaping from reality by the usage of intoxicants etc.
It is mind boggling how many performers with awful lifestyles or people who swindle others e.g financial field escape reality through the use of some kind of intoxicant.
We are helped by the Quranic world view, its admonitions and advice to that which is better. Quranic injunctions are not a hardship they lessen our burdens.
Here is an example:

They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought. (Quran 2:219)

Inner peace requires sound faith and staying away from ill deeds and living a righteous life whilst making amends when we fall short.

Here are a few verses of the Quran and sayings of the Prophet peace be upon him regarding these issues.

"Know ye (all), that the life of this world is but play and a pastime, adornment and mutual boasting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: how rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow: then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Chastisement severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from ALLAH and (his) good Pleasure (for the devotees of ALLAH). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception."{57:20}.

"Stand firm (in the straight Path) as thou art commanded,
Thou and those who with thee turn (unto ALLAH);
And transgress not (from the Path): for He seeth well all that ye do.
And incline not to those who do wrong, or the Fire will touch you;
And ye have no protectors other than ALLAH, nor shall ye be helped."{11:112.113}.

"Those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,
Verily Thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."{7:153}.

"It was not ALLAH who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls."{30:9}.

"Those who oppress men with wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice:
For such there will be a Chastisement grievous."{42:42}.

"Go to Pharaoh, for verily, he is a transgressor. Say to him: Will you purify yourself?" 79:17-18

"Verily, among his people was Abraham, when he came to his Lord with a pure heart". 37:83-84

"He has succeeded who purifies himself, who remembers the name of his Lord and prays." 87:14-15

"Verily, the prayer prohibits immorality and wrongdoing, and the remembrance of Allah is greater." 29:45

"O ye who believe Let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: and those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong." {49:11 }.

"When the wrong-doers will be made to stand before their Lord, throwing back the word (of blame) on one another Those who were deemed weak will say to the arrogant ones: Had it not been for you, we should certainly have been believers The arrogant ones will say to those who had been deemed weak: Was it we who kept you back from Guidance after it reached you? Nay, rather, it was ye who transgressed. Those who had been deemed weak will say to the arrogant ones: Nay it was a plot (of yours) by day and by night: behold ye (constantly) ordered us to be ungrateful to ALLAH and to attribute equals to Him They are filled with remorse. When they see the Chastisement: We shall put yokes on the necks of the Unbelievers: it would only be a requital for their (ill) Deeds." { 34:31-33 }.

Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation. (Quran 98:7)

Verily, God does not wrong [anyone] by as much as an atom's weight; and if there be a good deed, He will multiply it, and will bestow out of His grace a mighty reward. (Quran 4:40)

And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful. (Quran 11:114)

Good and evil deeds are not equal. Repel evil with what is better; then you will see that one who was once your enemy has become your dearest friend. (Quran 41:34)

Anyone who performs good deeds, whether it be a man or woman, provided that he is a believer, shall enter Paradise. No one shall suffer the least injustice. (Quran 4:124)

Verily, Allah does not look at your appearance or wealth, but rather He looks at your hearts and actions.
Source: Sahih Muslim 2564, Grade: Sahih (hadith)
 






Last edited:
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,320
Good actions and genuine faith only begets more good actions and genuine faith. A liar can only tell more lies to cover up the other lies
Hi Claire, regarding the topic of sins:
After the importance of sound belief in the One God, we have been given many methods whereby we gain rewards and expiate sins as well..

1.We have collective supplications for the repentance of all sins.
2. Performing prayers.
3.Performing ablution
4.Attending the Friday prayer
5.Waiting for prayer for example:
"Shall I not tell you of something by means of which Allaah erases sins and raises you in status?" (this is in regards to our level in the next life, In Islam paradise has many levels. Those who are best in conduct will be closer to Creator.)
They said: "Yes, O Messenger of Allaah."
He s.a.w.s. said: "Doing wudoo' (purifying our body before prayers) well even when it is difficult,( DR: e.g when it is too cold etc)
taking many steps to the mosques and waiting for prayer after prayer. That is (equivalent) to guarding the frontier."
(Sahih Muslim)
6.Doing good deeds.
7.Performing hajj or umrah the pilgrimage (erases all sins for the sincere) and lesser pilgrimage.
8. Fasting
9. Giving in charity
10.Asking for the forgiveness from those whom we have wronged (after ceasing the wrong)
11. Being kind to animals e.g
Narrated Abû Huraira radhiAllâhu `anhu: Allâh's Apostle sallAllâhu `alayhi wa sallam said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allâh, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allâh forgave her because of that." [Sahîh Al-Bukhari]
12. Removing obstacles from a path e.g:
Allah's Messenger
said,
"While a man was on the way, he found a thorny branch of a tree on the way and removed it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him (his sins)."
(Bukhari)
13. Observing patience in a time of hardship.
14. Every good deed is charity. Verily, it is a good deed to meet your brother with a smiling face, and to pour what is left from your bucket into the vessel of your brother.
Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 1970, Grade: Sahih
(please note, that people who accept Islam as a way of life as in convert have all their sins removed as well.)

There are more ways than this but I hope this gives you an idea. We get rewarded and we also expiate sins by living a life of righteousness.

Regarding inner peace:

Islam urges its adherents first to have proper faith and then to stay away or eschew wrongdoing/sinning either to self and others.
Sinning takes away from the tranquility of the heart.
An example would be soldiers who were a party to the oppression of others. Even when they have a free pass from the authorities their hearts will not find peace.Many who oppress others or who sin constantly lead lives of quiet desperation and as such resort to escaping from reality by the usage of intoxicants etc.
It is mind boggling how many performers with awful lifestyles or people who swindle others e.g financial field escape reality through the use of some kind of intoxicant.
We are helped by the Quranic world view, its admonitions and advice to that which is better. Quranic injunctions are not a hardship they lessen our burdens.
Here is an example:

They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought. (Quran 2:219)

Inner peace requires sound faith and staying away from ill deeds and living a righteous life whilst making amends when we fall short.

Here are a few verses of the Quran and sayings of the Prophet peace be upon him regarding these issues.

"Know ye (all), that the life of this world is but play and a pastime, adornment and mutual boasting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: how rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow: then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Chastisement severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from ALLAH and (his) good Pleasure (for the devotees of ALLAH). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception."{57:20}.

"Stand firm (in the straight Path) as thou art commanded,
Thou and those who with thee turn (unto ALLAH);
And transgress not (from the Path): for He seeth well all that ye do.
And incline not to those who do wrong, or the Fire will touch you;
And ye have no protectors other than ALLAH, nor shall ye be helped."{11:112.113}.

"Those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,
Verily Thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."{7:153}.

"It was not ALLAH who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls."{30:9}.

"Those who oppress men with wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice:
For such there will be a Chastisement grievous."{42:42}.

"Go to Pharaoh, for verily, he is a transgressor. Say to him: Will you purify yourself?" 79:17-18

"Verily, among his people was Abraham, when he came to his Lord with a pure heart". 37:83-84

"He has succeeded who purifies himself, who remembers the name of his Lord and prays." 87:14-15

"Verily, the prayer prohibits immorality and wrongdoing, and the remembrance of Allah is greater." 29:45

"O ye who believe Let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: and those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong." {49:11 }.

"When the wrong-doers will be made to stand before their Lord, throwing back the word (of blame) on one another Those who were deemed weak will say to the arrogant ones: Had it not been for you, we should certainly have been believers The arrogant ones will say to those who had been deemed weak: Was it we who kept you back from Guidance after it reached you? Nay, rather, it was ye who transgressed. Those who had been deemed weak will say to the arrogant ones: Nay it was a plot (of yours) by day and by night: behold ye (constantly) ordered us to be ungrateful to ALLAH and to attribute equals to Him They are filled with remorse. When they see the Chastisement: We shall put yokes on the necks of the Unbelievers: it would only be a requital for their (ill) Deeds." { 34:31-33 }.

Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation. (Quran 98:7)

Verily, God does not wrong [anyone] by as much as an atom's weight; and if there be a good deed, He will multiply it, and will bestow out of His grace a mighty reward. (Quran 4:40)

And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful. (Quran 11:114)

Good and evil deeds are not equal. Repel evil with what is better; then you will see that one who was once your enemy has become your dearest friend. (Quran 41:34)

Anyone who performs good deeds, whether it be a man or woman, provided that he is a believer, shall enter Paradise. No one shall suffer the least injustice. (Quran 4:124)

Verily, Allah does not look at your appearance or wealth, but rather He looks at your hearts and actions.
Source: Sahih Muslim 2564, Grade: Sahih (hadith)

Thank you Desertrose, for taking the time to patiently explain your beliefs.

It seems to me that real Muslims (not the ones portrayed by Mossad on tv) , but average, everyday Muslims like yourself & others here, are authentic people who genuinely love God & strive to please Him to the best of their ability.

That is an admirable quality & I think more Christians should try to understand the sincerity of the Muslims approach & reverence of God, which is something I’ve come to realize.


I may not completely agree with Islam, but I have new respect for Muslims, who seem to really want to please God as you understand Him.

I still really, REALLY want you guys to go to Heaven though.

One more question: why do you go to mosque on Friday? Is there a reason for that specific day? Just curious.
 






Kung Fu

Star
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
4,290
Thank you Desertrose, for taking the time to patiently explain your beliefs.

It seems to me that real Muslims (not the ones portrayed by Mossad on tv) , but average, everyday Muslims like yourself & others here, are authentic people who genuinely love God & strive to please Him to the best of their ability.

That is an admirable quality & I think more Christians should try to understand the sincerity of the Muslims approach & reverence of God, which is something I’ve come to realize.


I may not completely agree with Islam, but I have new respect for Muslims, who seem to really want to please God as you understand Him.

I still really, REALLY want you guys to go to Heaven though.

One more question: why do you go to mosque on Friday? Is there a reason for that specific day? Just curious.
Though we don't agree with everything when it comes to the nature of the Most High we do agree that there is a God and that He wants the best for us, which is refreshing in this decadent atheist Western era we seem to be living in.

Muslims go to the Mosque and pray on any given day of the week at any time but Friday is special because in the Quran it was commanded by the Most High for us to go and gather in prayer on Friday.
 






Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
584
@Serveto The Levitical priest had to be purified because they are the ones who stood before and worked closely with God in his congregation. Even when the people stood before God they had to clean and fast for 3 days when God came upon the mountain.

This is God and when you are in his presence you have to come before him respectfully, sanctified and pure so to say.
 






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