"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

DesertRose

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It seems to me that real Muslims (not the ones portrayed by Mossad on tv).
Thank you back Claire for seeing beyond the headlines. I ask the Creator of the heavens and earth to make us of those who have sincerity and whose repentance is genuine and accepted. I hope more people stop falling for the divide and conquer tactics as well. Practicing Muslims and Christians both love God but as brother KF rightly pointed out we disagree about the nature of God. I really want you to go to heaven too God willing.
Take Care.

“There is no good in most of their secret talks save (in) him who orders Sadaqah (charity in Allah’s Cause), or Ma‘roof (Islamic Monotheism and all the good and righteous deeds which Allah has ordained), or conciliation between mankind; and he who does this, seeking the good Pleasure of Allah, We shall give him a great reward.” [al-Nisa 4:114]
 






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I am Switzerland during WWII, neutral, but not always perfectly so. I compare and contrast the three so called "Abrahamic" religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and, in that process, try to understand what each says first about itself, and then what it says about the others. Your claim that Christianity is the "fulfillment" of the Law is countered by Judaism, as you know, and has been for 2,000 years.


How do you determine if something is legitimate? By means of your Bible and guidance, discernment from the Holy Spirit, I assume. They have a Quran, a tool, which they use as a criterion to determine legitimacy, and if, by use of that criterion, they find something they consider true in an otherwise potentially corrupted, radacted text, they identify it as true. In either case, yours or theirs, I don't find the process itself strange, even if different, often opposing conclusions are reached.


Sorry to interrupt, but please allow me to question the premise. We have two Testaments that you claim are in agreement. Again, there is an entire religion, Judaism, which claims, in essence, that its books were usurped by Christians for misguided purposes and applied to a false messiah. In other words, your claims are disputed by counter claims.


As I see it, in sum, if I disregard the scriptures @Yahda consistently provides and temporarily accept your premise that no other method of salvation than blood sacrifice is found in the OT, it seems to reduce to this: Judaism (perpetual animal sacrifices combined with repentance); Christianity (one-time human sacrifice combined with repentance); Islam (repentance). The contrast is stark, indeed, but repentance seems a common factor in all three.


More either/or's? I see more nuance, and don't consider it disingenuous. By way of contrast, if some gnostic sect of Christianity had arisen to become a dominant religion, let's say, and they had the Nag Hammadi books appended to the Old Testament and were going about preaching, I wouldn't consider you disingenuous -possibly mistaken, but not disingenuous- if you held the New Testament books as canon, as the Criterion, and used them to point out both truths and falsehoods in the Nag Hammadi books.


That would be silly.


Jews have been celebrating Yom Kippur, the so called high holiday, during which, as I understand, they essentially claim their collective sins are forgiven, for 2,000 years, and they have done so without blood or animal sacrifice. They are able to do this with scriptural justification, using the Old Testament. Evidently, they read and interpret it quite differently to you, and if you consider theirs a "made up" religion, then of course you may.


I hear @Yahda presenting relevant OT scriptures, not necessarily nullifying anything. Maimonides, in his arguments against animal sacrifices, quotes many of the same verses.


This is related to what was said above.



Have you heard of the Essenes? They are an interesting lot. We don't read of them much in the NT, but they had a sort of puritanical, ascetic counter-culture going on in the Dead Sea region, and, as I recall, didn't think too highly of animal, blood sacrifices and the Temple cult then happening at Jerusalem, despite the fact that they both read and accepted the Law and the Prophets. At the time of Jesus, immediately prior to, they were in the Dead Sea region, anxiously awaiting their "teacher of righteousness." I, personally, think they may have gotten one.


Authors of religious books make God change his mind a lot. For instance, in the OT, God takes Joshua into battle to commit genocide against seven nations, in some cases hanging their severed heads on sticks toward the sun, wiping them out down to their women, children and cattle, but is said to have incarnated in the year approx.1 AD to later teach pacifism in the Sermon on the Mount. My own personal mode of operating in many of these discussions is to remain elastic, to allow for, if not necessarily accept, sometimes wide variances, and many, many possibilities.
If you don't mind me asking, and I only ask because I respect your take on things, what belief system do you closest align with? Or are you agnostic?

Lineage, schmineage
I wouldn't be so sure of that

Jeremiah 33
14 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfil the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 15 In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring forth for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’

17 “For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn cereal offerings, and to make sacrifices for ever.”
 






Serveto

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If you don't mind me asking, and I only ask because I respect your take on things, what belief system do you closest align with? Or are you agnostic?
Thank you for asking and for your respect, which, as you know, is returned. I am closest to Christianity, culturally and in many ways. I might be either the ultimate or penultimate Protestant, the last of a rebelling breed, who didn't know quite when and where to stop, and am now, at times, protesting Protestantism itself. I am the opposite of an agnostic, which would be gnostic, but not in the sense that the word is usually used to denote various unorthodox spiritual movements within early Christianity, but only in the sense that I think it is entirely possible to "know," more than merely "believe," that God is. As I see it, one problem, at root, is how best to describe the indescribable, and I sometimes think poets do that as well as, or better, than prophets.


I am not meaning to misapply scriptures, which is always a danger when referring to or quoting them, but I am also a sort of futurist, post-apocalypticist, looking forward to the time when, however it is going to be done, whether by means of a genuine, "true" Messiah or else, what I consider to be the three warring, competing "sects" of Abrahamic religion, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, will finally "beat their swords into ploughshares" and get on with producing the proofs of being "blessings to the nations" as was said of Abraham and his progeny. However imperfectly, I sometimes work toward that end.
 






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Though we don't agree with everything when it comes to the nature of the Most High we do agree that there is a God and that He wants the best for us, which is refreshing in this decadent atheist Western era we seem to be living in.

Muslims go to the Mosque and pray on any given day of the week at any time but Friday is special because in the Quran it was commanded by the Most High for us to go and gather in prayer on Friday.
Indeed, atheism is becoming a plague.

I don’t think atheism was this widespread in times past. It seems as if it somehow got linked to intelligence, which is fallacious in itself.
The atheist tries to equate a belief in God to lack of intelligence, when all one needs to do is look around at creation to know there is a Creator. Even a child can realize it.
I think there is a much more malevolent force at work regarding atheism.
In order to look around and see the evidence of Creation, yet still deny the Creator makes me suspect that the problem with the atheist isn’t a lack of evidence, as it is inherent in us all to know that there is a Creator, but that the atheist knows this, refuses to admit & submit to it, and seeks to instead usurp that which God has made , and attempt to take credit for it themselves.
 






Daciple

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Your claim that Christianity is the "fulfillment" of the Law is countered by Judaism, as you know, and has been for 2,000 years.
So I was being brief in what I stated, to drive home a point, which is Judaism as now taught is NOT the same as Judaism as taught and to be followed according to the Old Testament. Judaism as taught and to be followed according to the Old Testament is what I am referring to as the Faith of Abraham which is wholly different than the Religion you are referring to as Judaism.

The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single piece of that literature … and the study of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism.

- Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1943)

So according to the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia the Religion called Judaism which you are referring to is the Religion of the Pharisees, which according to the even the Old Testament is NOT the Faith of Abraham. In Modern Judaism aka the Religion of the Pharisees, they hold the OT as the least Holy of their Text. They rely mostly on the Talmud and the Kabbalah. This is a completely different Religion and Faith than the Faith of Abraham which would uphold the OT as the ONLY Holy Scriptures to be endorsed or followed prior to the Advent of the Messiah. I can quote dozens of Scriptures of Christ stating the Pharisees are of the Devil ect, but this one verse proves what I am stating from Christ Himself:

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


As for what the Pharisees aka the Religion you call Judaism actually practices Ezekiel shows us exactly what it is they practice and believe:

Ez 8:9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.

16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

You can read the whole chapter for a more detailed account, but this is exactly what the Religion of the Pharisees aka Judaism is all about, which is the worship of idols, the worship of Sumerian/Babylonian Gods and worship of the sun. In short Judaism is simply worship of the Ancient Mystery Religions with Jewish/Biblical Imagery or Names thrown on top. Similar to Gnosticism which is worship of the Ancient Mystery Religions with Christian Imagery and Names on top.

Therefore any countering by a Religion that worships idols, the Sumerian/Babylonian Gods and the Sun which practice the Ancient Mystery Religions as to the legitimacy of the Christ or the fulfillment of Scriptures is null and void. They dont even follow the Old Testament and in fact all through out the Old Testament God says over and over how they reject Him and replace Him with their own made up Religions and Laws. So whatever they say means nothing in the end, just as the God of Abraham said:

Is 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


God said specifically here and in many other places that these people the Jews with their False Religion of the Pharisees draw near with lipservice but their hearts are far from Him, and that they choose precepts of men instead of Him, however He would do a marvellous Work among them to destroy the so called wisdom of the Jews (aka the Religion of the Pharisees and their False Wisdom of Babylon aka Gnosis). There is a reason Jesus quoted this verse, because HE was the one doing the great and marvellous works and HE was the one who was the Wonder that destroyed their so called Wisdom and their False Religion.

How do you determine if something is legitimate? By means of your Bible and guidance, discernment from the Holy Spirit, I assume. They have a Quran, a tool, which they use as a criterion to determine legitimacy, and if, by use of that criterion, they find something they consider true in an otherwise potentially corrupted, radacted text, they identify it as true. In either case, yours or theirs, I don't find the process itself strange, even if different, often opposing conclusions are reached.
That would be silly.
So it would be silly me of to turn to a Text that I think is corrupted to build up my Religion and say it is Prophesying things, and Prophets are to come, but its not silly for Muslims to turn to the Old or New Testament to say it is Prophesying things or Prophets are to come? I think it is not only silly but logically inconsistent to turn to a Text one believes is Corrupt to uphold or build upon or anything else what I hold is True. It would be like me saying the Gnostic Texts are Corrupt (which they are) and then point to them to show how Jesus came and did this or that.

As you said to do such a thing is silly at best...

Sorry to interrupt, but please allow me to question the premise. We have two Testaments that you claim are in agreement. Again, there is an entire religion, Judaism, which claims, in essence, that its books were usurped by Christians for misguided purposes and applied to a false messiah. In other words, your claims are disputed by counter claims.
And we also have multiple "Prophets" who give other additions to the New Testament that create entire religions, Mormonism and Islam, however if they were all from the same God then all of them would actually agree. The Old and the New Testament agree, and no where in the New Testament does it state that the Old is incorrect or cant be trusted or anything along those lines. However in these other Religions they say the Old and the New is either wholly incomplete or moreover incorrect.

Again you can bring up the point of the Satanic Pharisees and their False Religion and the fact that they dont accept the Messiah or the New Testament, but that doesnt negate the fact that the Old and the New are compatible and agree with one another, unlike how Islam or the Book of Mormon for instance states both are "corrupt" and neither actually agree with either the Old or the New. If the God of the Old and New Testament were to create another new Testament it ought to be 100% congruent with the previous Scriptures and I believe be told within the previous Scriptures that God was going to bring in another New Covenant. However the New or Old Testament neither state that another Covenant was going to come aka Holy Text, nor do they agree with the Quran or the Book of Mormon nor any other new Religious Text...

As I see it, in sum, if I disregard the scriptures @Yahda consistently provides and temporarily accept your premise that no other method of salvation than blood sacrifice is found in the OT, it seems to reduce to this: Judaism (perpetual animal sacrifices combined with repentance); Christianity (one-time human sacrifice combined with repentance); Islam (repentance). The contrast is stark, indeed, but repentance seems a common factor in all three.
Repentance is a common factor in many ideologies, but it is the differences that shows if it is the same God or not. IDK if I have been clear in what I have been stating and why. The point I have been leading towards is to show that if God sets up a system that very clearly incorporates Blood Atonement, it makes no sense if He were to later create another addition to His already Holy Text NOT to include this fact into His New Scriptures. If we take Islam and the Quran alone you would never ever have any idea that Israel created an Entire System of Government and Culture 100% built around Blood Sacrifice for Forgiveness.

The New Testament is 100% is based around the exact System of Government and Culture that was central to Israeli Government and Culture, the same exact method of Forgiveness and Salvation is offered in the Old and the New Testament. The Quran however stands as you say in STARK CONTRAST to the System and Government and method of Salvation and Forgiveness as spoken of and decreed in the Old and New Testament. I believe this shows that it can not be the same God, as one REQUIRES Blood Atonement, and the god of Islam says absolutely nothing about it...

Jews have been celebrating Yom Kippur, the so called high holiday, during which, as I understand, they essentially claim their collective sins are forgiven, for 2,000 years, and they have done so without blood or animal sacrifice.
So lets just say that Judaism as it is practiced today is the same as it was in the past, here is the question, do they say that in the Future when the Temple is rebuilt that they will again offer Sacrifices for Blood Atonement? If so then why, if it is not a requirement or necessary for Salvation and Forgiveness of Sins?

Also if they did reject their Messiah and still refuse to accept Him, then doesnt it stand that they will try to justify the need NOT to continue to Sacrifice for Blood Atonement? I mean its really hard for them to do it, why? Because just as the Old Testament stated, God destroyed the Temple because of their stubbornness and refusal to accept His method of Salvation which is thru the Messiah.

Micah 3:12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

For more clarification:

Micah 3:Therefore, on account of you Zion will be plowed as a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins, And the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest.

I believe it makes logical sense that if I want to be stubborn and continue on in rebellion as prophesied in Scripture that I would try and figure out some way to justify my Religion, even going as far as to forsake the way in which Sins were forgiven and mandated by God for my people for eons, at least until the place in which I used to do so is Rebuilt then all the sudden Sacrifice and Blood Atonement means something and is necessary. Heres the facts if Blood Atonement didnt mean anything or wasnt needed then the Jews or the people who call themselves Jews wouldnt be pressing or saying in the future there will be more Sacrifices, they would say there is no need for Sacrifice and Forgiveness by Blood and never again look for a Temple to be rebuilt to do just that...

I hear @Yahda presenting relevant OT scriptures, not necessarily nullifying anything. Maimonides, in his arguments against animal sacrifices, quotes many of the same verses.
Both of whom are trying desperately to downplay the necessity of the Sacrifices because they can not perform them at the moment, as stated above, doing anything they can to try and justify why they can continue in their Rebellion when God destroyed the Temple as He stated He would do. Yet I believe that both would support Sacrifice again if the Temple was up and running and we would watch them switch from stating that Sacrifice isnt needed to saying you better Sacrifice or you are not following God. If Sacrifice isnt needed then again the question is, why are these people seeking to reinstitute the Temple to do that very thing?

However this isnt really addressing the point I was making which is that if the God if Islam is the God that gave the Law of Moses then assuredly Islam would be packed to the brim with examples of Sacrifices and foreshadowings of the necessity and meaning behind them. Just as we see it taught in the Faith of Abraham and Christianity and even in Modern Judaism who is seeking to rebuild the Temple to start Sacrificing again, in direct defiance of God and Christ...

Have you heard of the Essenes?
Yes

as I recall, didn't think too highly of animal, blood sacrifices and the Temple cult then happening at Jerusalem, despite the fact that they both read and accepted the Law and the Prophets.
Indeed there was a Tiny Sect that happened to be popularized because of the Dead Sea Scrolls that didnt think too highly of the Animal Sacrifices. And we can say they accepted the Law but if they dont follow the actual Law that says to Sacrifice Animals for Forgiveness of Sin do they really accept and follow the Law?

I can say that I accept and follow the Laws of the Road but if I speed continually and refuse to stop a Red Lights, do I really accept and follow the Laws? Also are you able to provide justification from them as to why they didnt follow the Law? I tried looking it up and didnt find anything satisfactory that would allow one to choose not to follow the Law.

At the time of Jesus, immediately prior to, they were in the Dead Sea region, anxiously awaiting their "teacher of righteousness." I, personally, think they may have gotten one.
I dont know, Jesus shed His Blood for the Sins of all, I dont see how they could accept Him if they rejected Sacrifice for Sins....

Authors of religious books make God change his mind a lot. For instance, in the OT, God takes Joshua into battle to commit genocide against seven nations, in some cases hanging their severed heads on sticks toward the sun, wiping them out down to their women, children and cattle, but is said to have incarnated in the year approx.1 AD to later teach pacifism in the Sermon on the Mount
So are you even reading this in Context whatsoever? I dont believe you are if you think the authors are making God change His mind about things. I mean I could easily explain that to you but is it really something that you even think is what happened? After years of speaking with you, I really dont think you believe that the authors made God change His mind and have instead taken something extremely out of context in order to prove a point, which in my opinion since you are taking things so far out of context shows that your point isnt as easily provable as the statement you made would make it out to be.

And this still isnt relating to the actual point I have made which again is God deems some necessity in Blood Sacrifice for Atonement as He put it in the Law over and over, then created a Nation that the entire infrastructure is based around it, and even those who are trying to feint that Blood Sacrifice is not needed are looking forward to the day in which the Temple is rebuilt and they can AGAIN start Sacrificing for the Atonement of Sin. Since it is patently obvious that God created the Law and Nation of Israel with Sacrifice at the center of both, then it stands to reason that if Allah was the same God that did both, that he would mention it somewhere in the Koran. That Sacrifice for Atonement would be stated SOMEWHERE in there. It is mentioned in the Old Testament, it is mentioned in the New but not in the Koran. Therefore it stands to reason that the god of Islam isnt the same as the God of Israel considering the most central aspect of the God of Israel is not mentioned at all in Islam...

My own personal mode of operating in many of these discussions is to remain elastic, to allow for, if not necessarily accept, sometimes wide variances, and many, many possibilities.
Indeed, to each their own, however I wonder at what point you would accept something as Truthful and reject other ideologies as being fallacious? You can of course believe and stay open and I enjoy our conversations but I personally believe there is only so long one can be Lukewarm before there become consequences, only saying this because I love and care for you brother...

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Indeed, to each their own, however I wonder at what point you would accept something as Truthful and reject other ideologies as being fallacious? You can of course believe and stay open and I enjoy our conversations but I personally believe there is only so long one can be Lukewarm before there become consequences, only saying this because I love and care for you brother...

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Sometimes the most reluctant people to finally nail their colours to the mast are those that appreciate the gravity of the choice the most, and live the reality of that choice out with the most integrity. There is place in our lives for the "Valley of Decision" and it is a moment of choice beyond all others. Sometimes people make "decisions" too fast, whilst others wander in the shadow lands of doubt for half a lifetime.

I loved the moment in C.S Lewis's personal account of when that decision became foremost...

"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked home on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The words “compelle intrare,” compel them to come in, have been so abused be wicked men that we shudder at them; but, properly understood, they plumb the depth of the Divine mercy. The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."​
C.S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy: The Shape of My Early Life
 






Karlysymon

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Serveto said:
Jews have been celebrating Yom Kippur, the so called high holiday, during which, as I understand, they essentially claim their collective sins are forgiven, for 2,000 years, and they have done so without blood or animal sacrifice. They are able to do this with scriptural justification, using the Old Testament. Evidently, they read and interpret it quite differently to you, and if you consider theirs a "made up" religion, then of course you may.
Daciple said:
So lets just say that Judaism as it is practiced today is the same as it was in the past, here is the question, do they say that in the Future when the Temple is rebuilt that they will again offer Sacrifices for Blood Atonement? If so then why, if it is not a requirement or necessary for Salvation and Forgiveness of Sins?
Yeah, you've also got to wonder why they are so intent on finding that Red Heifer. Rare Red Heifer Eligible for
Third Temple Offering Found, And You Won’t Believe Where
.


Although, i've just learnt something new about this heifer stuff.

"Over the course of the approximately one thousand years the First and Second Temple stood, only nine Red Heifers were used in
preparing the waters used to purify Jews. According to Jewish tradition, the tenth one will be used by the Messiah."


Why would the Messiah need its ashes, when He could just 'say the word and they'd be cleansed' inwardly & outwardly? Keeping in mind that the Orthodox Jew expects Him to appear as a glorified being and not as a lowly peasant.

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean
sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean." (Numbers 19; Hebrews 9:13)
 






Red Sky at Morning

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@Karlysymon

Perhaps the appearance of a Red Heiffer is God's way of respecting the freedom of choice people have, rather like the way they were given Saul when they asked for a king? Remember after a certain number of times when Pharoah hardened his heart, God hardened it? I wonder...
 






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Serveto

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Judaism is not monolithic. In Israel, Gush Shalom, for instance, is polar opposite to Gush Emunim. In marked contrast to the Temple Institute (with the far-right, Sheldon Adelson "settler') crowd and their Christian Evangelical colleagues anxiously awaiting a perfect red heifer:

"... the Reform [Judaism] attitude is still too universalistic to permit references to the old sacrificial system in prayer. Sacrifices were, indeed, once highly significant but they have now been superseded under divine guidance.
Conservative Judaism, on the other hand, believes that to delete from the Prayer Book all references to the sacrifices is to ignore the significant role the sacrifices played in Jewish history. And yet, since many Jews do not believe that the sacrificial system will one day be restored, to pray for its restoration is to engage in double-think.

To cope with this problem, the Conservative Prayer Book retains the references to the system but substitutes for the words ‘and there we will offer’ the words: ‘and there our forefathers offered.’"
Further up in the same article:

"After the destruction of the Temple [sic] the verse ‘we will render the bullocks of our lips (Hosea 14:3)’ was understood to mean that the repetition of the details of the sacrificial cult in prayer and the prayers for its restoration are accounted as if the sacrifices were actually offered in the Temple ...
Source


Evidently, in the case of the Essenes, this verse from Hosea was applicable and in effect (to negate or otherwise abrogate animal sacrifice) before the destruction of the Temple:

"By retiring to Qumran, far from the Temple which they considered profaned by the wickedness of the official priesthood, the members of the sect had to renounce offering the usual sacrifices there. Josephus writes that the Essenes "fulfill their sacrifices among themselves" ... whereas according to Philo ..., they offered no sacrifice at all. It appears from various Qumran writings that the sect did not in principle condemn sacrifices absolutely; they accorded them a place in religion. But the present section of the Rule [one of their discovered documents] shows that, for the Essenes, 'the offering of the lips,' i.e., divine praise, and perfect conduct, were sufficient to secure God's loving-kindness and to take the place of expiatory sacrifice. This doctrine can cite the authority of Amos, Hosea and Isaiah ..."
Source (p. 96)
 






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vancityeagle

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Well I believe Zionism is Racist as well, however I think there is a difference between Black Hebrew Israeli ideology and what you describe. For one according to BHI all white people are going to Hell because of their Skin color alone, there is no hope for us Devil White Crackers, no matter if I follow their Laws or anything else I can possibly do, Ive got a ticket straight to Hell. Christian Zionism doesnt state this, only that the Jews have a different method of Salvation apart from Jesus Christ (which is blasphemy and a lie). Essentially they believe that Jews are special and get to Heaven based on their Ethnicity where as everyone else can still get to Heaven but have to believe on Jesus.

I think that is wildly different than BHI personally...
BHI ideology is no different than Christianity in that THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT SECTS WITH MANY DIFFERENT BELIEFS

So you cannot just blanket condemn them or accuse them of anything.

That would be like saying "All Christians are racist" because the KKK are racist.

Yes there are many BHI organizations who are racist and believe all white people are "devils"

Yet there are other BHI organizations who have white members.

Some believe Christ is the son of God, others do not. Some believe that Native americans are also Israelites, others believe it is only blacks.

So again you cannot put them all in the same category in terms of their beliefs
 






DavidSon

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African Hebrew Israelites
American black community finds spiritual home in the Negev.

BY AHMADIEL BEN YEHUDA



African Hebrew Israelites, often referred to as Black Hebrews, are the largest organized group of African-American expatriates living anywhere in the world. The African Hebrew Israelites are the followers of Ben Ammi Ben Israel, who they believe received a vision in 1966 in which he was directed to return African-American descendants of the ancient Israelites to the Promised Land, and to establish the long-awaited Kingdom of God on earth.

By 1967, Ben Ammi convinced approximately 400 African-Americans (largely from Chicago) to leave, America (known as the “Lands of the Great Captivity”), and travel to Israel. The first group of “returnees” arrived in Israel in 1969, after a brief sojourn in the wilderness of Liberia.

The movement can be understood in the context of the “great awakening” to historical roots and cultural identity that African-Americans underwent in the 1960s. The Hebrew Israelites maintain their return was not just to their ancestral homeland of Israel (which they consider northeastern Africa), but to a way of life that would testify to the power of God.

While only approximately 3,000 saints (as they call themselves) reside in Israel, thousands live across the US, Caribbean, Europe and Africa and identify with the community, living according to their doctrinal tenets.

Organizing in Israel
On arrival in Israel in 1969, the African Hebrew Israelites were given temporary visas and assigned to Dimona, an economically-depressed development town in Israel’s Negev region. The initial welcoming proved short-lived, as a change in Israel’s Law of Return less than a year later cast the community into a legal limbo. At first the members did not have work visas, but were not deported by the government. Beginning in the early 1990s, African Hebrew Israelites were given temporary resident status, and the community members received permanent residency in 2003. The Israeli government now allows African Hebrew Israelites to pursue citizenship of Israel. The first African Hebrew Israelite received Israeli citizenship in 2009, and more Hebrews have become citizens since then.

Meanwhile, faced with overcrowded conditions, no access to schools or health care, and the constant threat of deportation, the Hebrew Israelites were challenged to develop institutions that addressed their basic needs. They developed a biblically-based system of communal living and sharing, called All in Common, which drove the economy. They also founded, Bayt Safer Akvah (Brotherhood School), a community-run school under the auspices of Israel’s Ministry of Education.

In 1980 an abandoned absorption center for 1970s-era immigrants was given to the community by Jacques Amir, a sympathetic mayor. Renovated by the members, the site provided a brief respite from massive overcrowding. Later proclaimed the Village of Peace, it is now a destination for hundreds of tourists each week.

Community services include a general store, guest house, health spa, dance studio, communal dining area and sewing center, all staffed and maintained by community members. They produce a line of soy and vegan food products that are marketed throughout Israel and operate a global chain of vegan restaurants in cities such as Atlanta, Chicago, Washington DC, St. Louis, and Los Angeles, as well as Acre and Cape Coast (Ghana).

Spiritual and Social Life
Some have mistakenly reported that the African Hebrew Israelites claim to be descendents of the 10 lost tribes. The community actually considers itself the descendants of the tribe of Judah, as they spiritually identify with Judah’s role as the “gatherer” of the other tribes. (King David was from the tribe of Judah.) The community’s vision invokes Israel’s prophetic mandate to be a “light unto the nations.” The Hebrews take this charge seriously, incorporating a respect for what they see as the “sacred Truth” into every aspect of their culture.

The Hebrews maintain a firm distinction between religion on the one hand, and spirituality on the other. The former is frowned upon, and seen as the root of many evils in the world today. “The true worship of God is an entire way of life, a continuous action, from the meal you eat in the morning, to the job you work on,” wrote Ben Ammi in God the Black Man and Truth. “It encompasses your every deed and thought pattern.”

The Holy Council–12 men known as princes, chaired by Ben Ammi–constitutes the group’s spiritual leadership. Twelve ministers oversee the daily affairs and operations of the community. A third tier of governance, Crowned Brothers and Sisters, oversees the daily affairs of the adult community. The community’s vibrant cultural dress–all bordered with fringes and “cords of blue”, like a tallit–is unmistakable.

Polygyny, the practice of having more than one wife at a time, was practiced among Hebrew Israelites until 1990. The community defended this practice because it accorded with biblical tradition and also because of the community’s unique demographic conditions. Significantly more women traveled to Israel in the first wave of aliyah, and the community valued marriage and companionship, even if it meant one man having multiple wives.

In addition to keeping the Holy Days prescribed in the Bible, the Hebrews have incorporated a New World Passover into their calendar, which commemorates their exodus from the United States in 1967. Each May, hundreds of international guests join in two full days of feasting, music and family-oriented fun. Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) observances feature the annual “Dance for the Land” featuring an elaborate display of sound and motion celebrating their joy at being back in their ancestral land.

The Prophetic Priesthood, the body of men responsible for administering spiritual needs of the community also read psalms to women during pregnancy and labor, counsel couples considering marriage, officiate weddings, conduct Sabbath services, and perform circumcisions on the male children. Fasting, for all older than 13 years old, is part of the community’s mandatory Sabbath observance, and considered part of their holistic approach to health.

Health and Wellness
It is here, in the arena of preventive health, that the African Hebrew Israelites have scored, perhaps, their most impressive success. They have virtually eradicated high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, heart disease, and obesity from their community. Indeed there have been no deaths in the community attributable to these diseases, which in the US disproportionally impact African-Americans.

Members of the community are vegans. Tobacco, drugs, and alcoholic beverages aside from naturally fermented wines are avoided. Regular exercise (three times weekly) is mandatory for all adults, as is a monthly massage. No-salt days, sugarless weeks, and live food weeks dot their calendar. According to the community’s belief system, the choice of relationships, clothing, and music all matter where health is concerned, and every effort is made to create an environment conducive to healing. This consciousness is woven into the lifestyle, resulting in an admired comprehensive health literacy. In 2006, Ghana’s Ministry of Health summoned a team from Dimona to assist in the development of a health and nutrition program crucial to that West African country.

Working for Peace on Many Fronts
The Hebrews also participate in civic activities of the State of Israel. Since 2004, more than 125 of their youth have served in the Israel Defense Forces. Defending their homeland is viewed as a moral obligation, and other members of the community reach out to the neighboring Arab population. By virtue of their experience in overcoming prejudice, the group considers itself uniquely positioned to mediate disputes where ethnicity and other differences are at the root of social strife. A conflict resolution center, the Dr. Martin Luther King/SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership Conference)-Ben Ammi Center for a New Humanity, opened in 2005.

Israel’s Foreign Ministry considers the community a corps of goodwill ambassadors. They are particularly active throughout Africa. Today, the frictions that once characterized the community’s relationship with the Israeli government and with Ashkenazi ultra-Orthodox parties, who denied the community members were Jewish, are a distant memory.

Times may not have always been rosy for the community, but along the way, public praises have poured forth: the U.S. Congressional Human Rights Caucus recognized them as a “miracle in the desert,” and the Foreign Ministry’s website calls them “a phenomenon in a land of phenomena.”

Their struggle for acceptance behind them, the African Hebrews continue to look at the challenges ahead. “Ever onward and upward,” says Prince Rockameem, 74, one of the founding pioneers. “If you’re coasting, you’re going downhill!”
 






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Sharon

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The Israel of God, with their main branch in Riverdale, Illinois and other branches across the United States in Atlanta, Orlando, Houston, ect., is an example of a less radical group of the Hebrew Israelite community. They teach to all groups of people regardless of race or nationality.

 






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