"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

[Violette]

Almighty God tells us in the Qur'an that the unlettered prophet Muhammad was foretold of in the earlier scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Almighty God said:

​

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.​

I don't doubt that there are prophecies in the OT about the coming of Jesus Christ, but there are many more about the coming of Prophet Muhammad, they have just been misinterpreted and their meanings distorted by the Jews and Christians who denied him. May God give you correct guidance, Amin.

Jesus fulfilled 61 prophecies, what are the prophecies of Muhammad? The odds of one person fulfilling that many prophecies is beyond mathematical possibility, if Muhammad can surprass that I would be very impressed.

 

[grateful servant]

Jesus fulfilled 61 prophecies, what are the prophecies of Muhammad? The odds of one person fulfilling that many prophecies is beyond mathematical possibility, if Muhammad can surprass that I would be very impressed.

Fulfilled 61 prophecies according to Christian interpretation. Prophecies about Muhammad and Islam in the previous scriptures far surpass that number no doubt, but depends on your approach. Peace.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Jesus fulfilled 61 prophecies, what are the prophecies of Muhammad? The odds of one person fulfilling that many prophecies is beyond mathematical possibility, if Muhammad can surprass that I would be very impressed.

Khalil in this dramatized testimony (to protect his identity) was charged by his leader to investigate the Bible for contradictions and publish a work that would discredit the Christian Gospel. He was also schooled in the verses in the Bible that are used to suggest that the Bible pointed towards Muhammad.

What he found changed him.

 

[Violette]

Fulfilled 61 prophecies according to Christian interpretation. Prophecies about Muhammad and Islam in the previous scriptures far surpass that number no doubt, but depends on your approach. Peace.

Well when you want to provide me with those scriptures I’m all ears, I won’t press it any farther though.

 

[Violette]

Khalil in this dramatized testimony (to protect his identity) was charged by his leader to investigate the Bible for contradictions and publish a work that would discredit the Christian Gospel. He was also schooled in the verses in the Bible that are used to suggest that the Bible pointed towards Muhammad.

What he found changed him.

Wonderful video Ive tried other religions and worldviews myself but nothing’s brought me more wholeness than the Prince of Peace. I wish everyone experienced true peace.

 

[grateful servant]

Wonderful video Ive tried other religions and worldviews myself but nothing’s brought me more wholeness than the Prince of Peace. I wish everyone experienced true peace.

Here's one for you Violette, the Prince of Peace reference in the Earlier Scriptures is meant for Prophet Muhammad and not his brother in faith, Jesus. This is from the Muslim perspective of course.

“There has never lived upon this earth a Prince – Prophet like Muhammad, who belonged to a dynasty that reigned for a long period of about 2,500 years, was absolutely independent and never bent its neck under a foreign yoke. And certainly there has never been seen on earth another man like Prophet Muhammad, who has rendered more material and moral service to his own nation in particular and to the world in general. It is impossible to imagine another human being so dignified and so worthy as Prophet Muhammad for such a magnificent glory and honor as depicted in the prophetical vision. Let us just compare the great Prophet Daniel with the Bar nasha he was beholding with awe and wonder. Daniel was a slave or captive, though raised to the dignity of a vizier in the courts of Babylon and Susa. What would, in the presence of the Almighty, be his position when compared with Prophet Muhammad, who would be crowned as the Sultan of the Prophets, the Leader of mankind, and the object of the angels’ homage and admiration? Small wonder that the Prophet David calls Prophet Muhammad “My Lord” (Psa, c. 10)”.
- Muhammad in the Bible: by David Benjamin Kildani (former Roman Catholic Bishop of a Uniate Chaldean diocese)​

 

[Violette]

Here's one for you Violette, the Prince of Peace reference in the Earlier Scriptures is meant for Prophet Muhammad and not his brother in faith, Jesus. This is from the Muslim perspective of course.

“There has never lived upon this earth a Prince – Prophet like Muhammad, who belonged to a dynasty that reigned for a long period of about 2,500 years, was absolutely independent and never bent its neck under a foreign yoke. And certainly there has never been seen on earth another man like Prophet Muhammad, who has rendered more material and moral service to his own nation in particular and to the world in general. It is impossible to imagine another human being so dignified and so worthy as Prophet Muhammad for such a magnificent glory and honor as depicted in the prophetical vision. Let us just compare the great Prophet Daniel with the Bar nasha he was beholding with awe and wonder. Daniel was a slave or captive, though raised to the dignity of a vizier in the courts of Babylon and Susa. What would, in the presence of the Almighty, be his position when compared with Prophet Muhammad, who would be crowned as the Sultan of the Prophets, the Leader of mankind, and the object of the angels’ homage and admiration? Small wonder that the Prophet David calls Prophet Muhammad “My Lord” (Psa, c. 10)”.​

- Muhammad in the Bible: by David Benjamin Kildani (former Roman Catholic Bishop of a Uniate Chaldean diocese)​

Setting scripture aside, when you compare Jesus to Muhammad why do you feel Muhammad has brought more peace? From my perspective , Jesus brought peace to the world not only by his role in salvation but also through his words and actions. He has no violent history, forgiving, taught to pray for your enemies, etc.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Violette

I completely agree with you about the difference in message between Christianity and Islam. To avoid fruitless debate over the evils of ISIS or the Crusades, I think if you were to honestly compare the message of the Jesus and Muhammad, your conclusion in unavoidable.

 

[grateful servant]

Setting scripture aside, when you compare Jesus to Muhammad why do you feel Muhammad has brought more peace? From my perspective , Jesus brought peace to the world not only by his role in salvation but also through his words and actions. He has no violent history, forgiving, taught to pray for your enemies, etc.

I believe that Jesus was a peaceful man; forgiving, humble and devoted to worshiping God. But He is not the one who was to guide people into all truth or all peace. That role was for his brother in faith, Prophet Muhammad.

I believe that Muhammad is the prince of peace because Muhammad brought Islam to the world. Islam literally means attaining peace, safety and security through the willful submission to Almighty God - loving Him and obeying His Commands while avoiding His Prohibitions.

The code of conduct that governs Muslim practices, that which is found in the Quran and Sunnah that was revealed from Almighty God to Prophet Muhammad, highlights the peace, justice and security that Islam brought to the inhabitants of earth.

 

[grateful servant]

@Violette

I completely agree with you about the difference in message between Christianity and Islam. To avoid fruitless debate over the evils of ISIS or the Crusades, I think if you were to honestly compare the message of the Jesus and Muhammad, your conclusion in unavoidable.

Judging by your posts here, you are under the delusion that the evils of ISIS reflect the message of our Prophet while nothing could be further from the truth.

If you were to honestly compare the messages of Jesus and Muhammad, you would come to the same conclusion that Negus, Christian King of Abysinnia came to when the early Muslims sought refuge in his kingdom from the torturous treatment of the Quraysh pagans: "It seems as if these words and those which were revealed to Jesus are the rays of the light which have radiated from the same source." You may read if you wish:

Having given a chance for the envoys to explain their objections, the king summoned the Muslims to the court and ordered them to explain the teachings of their religion. Ja‘far, the cousin of the Prophet r stood up and addressed the king in the following words: “O king! we were plunged in the depth of ignorance and barbarism; we adored idols, we lived in unchastity, we ate the dead bodies, and we spoke abominations, we disregarded every feeling of humanity, and the duties of hospitality and neighbourhood were neglected; we knew no law but that of the strong, when Allah raised among us a man, of whose birth, truthfulness, honesty, and purity we were aware; and he called to the Oneness of Allah, and taught us not to associate anything with Him. He forbade us the worship of idols; and he enjoined us to speak the truth, to be faithful to our trusts, to be merciful and to regard the rights of the neighbours and kith and kin; he forbade us to speak evil of women, or to eat the substance of orphans; he ordered us to fly from the vices, and to abstain from evil; to offer prayers, to render alms, and to observe fast. We have believed in him, we have accepted his teachings and his injunctions to worship Allah, and not to associate anything with Him, and we have allowed what He has allowed, and prohibited what He has prohibited. For this reason, our people have risen against us, have persecuted us in order to make us forsake the worship of Allah and return to the worship of idols and other abominations. They have tortured and injured us, until finding no safety among them, we have come to your country, and hope you will protect us from oppression.”
As a Christian, the king was very much impressed by these words and asked the Muslims to recite something from their holy book, the Qur’an. As a response Ja‘far recited the opening verses of Surat Maryam (Chapter 19 — Mary), a chapter which relates the story of the birth of both John and Jesus Christ (peace be upon them both) as well as a remembrance of how Mary, out of her piety, was miraculously fed with food. Upon hearing the recital, the king, along with the bishops of his realm, were moved to tears, so much so that tears rolled down his cheeks, wetting his beard, he exclaimed: "It seems as if these words and those which were revealed to Jesus are the rays of the light which have radiated from the same source." Turning to the two envoys from Makkah, he said, "I am afraid, I cannot give you back these refugees. They are free to live and worship in my realm as they please."

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@grateful servant

I excluded the usual equating of ISIS with Islam and Crusades with Christianity as neither of these perspectives are believed to represent the true faith by regular Muslims or Evangelical, Bible believing Christians.

As far as the actual message is concerned, it does no harm for Christians to understand what the Qur'an actually says, or indeed for Muslims to pick up a Bible and read for themselves.

Truth has nothing to fear from examination!

 

[Violette]

I believe that Jesus was a peaceful man; forgiving, humble and devoted to worshiping God. But He is not the one who was to guide people into all truth or all peace. That role was for his brother in faith, Prophet Muhammad.

I believe that Muhammad is the prince of peace because Muhammad brought Islam to the world. Islam literally means attaining peace, safety and security through the willful submission to Almighty God - loving Him and obeying His Commands while avoiding His Prohibitions.

The code of conduct that governs Muslim practices, that which is found in the Quran and Sunnah that was revealed from Almighty God to Prophet Muhammad, highlights the peace, justice and security that Islam brought to the inhabitants of earth.

Sorry to be the devils advocate but I don’t see how bringing islam to the world necessarily brought peace. Correct me if I’m wrong but Muhammad approved and ordered the murders of those who mocked/disagreed with him. That’s the opposite of what Christ taught. After Muhammad died his closest friends and family murdered and persecuted each other. After Jesus died his followers continued to spread his message while risking martyrdom. You could safely practice your faith in a Christian nation, but I could not safely be a Christian in an Islamic country.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:43-44‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[grateful servant]

@grateful servant

I excluded the usual equating of ISIS with Islam and Crusades with Christianity as neither of these perspectives are believed to represent the true faith by regular Muslims or Evangelical, Bible believing Christians.

As far as the actual message is concerned, it does no harm for Christians to understand what the Qur'an actually says, or indeed for Muslims to pick up a Bible and read for themselves.

Truth has nothing to fear from examination!

And what do you believe is the actual message of Muhammad? How do you believe it is different from the actual message of Jesus? I will tell you that what Muhammad preached to his companions and followers is the same as what Jesus preached to his disciples and followers. Their message was the same: Love the Lord your God, worship Him Alone, do not worship false gods, do good to parents, kith and kin, do good to neighbours, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, be merciful and forgiving... and so much more.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

And what do you believe is the actual message of Muhammad? How do you believe it is different from the actual message of Jesus? I will tell you that what Muhammad preached to his companions and followers is the same as what Jesus preached to his disciples and followers. Their message was the same: Love the Lord your God, worship Him Alone, do not worship false gods, do good to parents, kith and kin, do good to neighbours, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, be merciful and forgiving... and so much more.

Would you say that the message of the Qur'an was entirely consistent with regard to its toleration and acceptance of those who do not accept the message of Muhammad, or would you say that various periods of Muhammad's life reflected different "tones"?

P.s. given the tread title, what are your thoughts with regard to Hebrew Israelites? The reason is that they appear to believe that God primarily wants us to keep his laws and will reward us with salvation dependant on our adherence to them. I would imagine you would have greater sympathy with the theology explained by @Yahda than my own?

 

[grateful servant]

Would you say that the message of the Qur'an was entirely consistent with regard to its toleration and acceptance of those who do not accept the message of Muhammad, or would you say that various periods of Muhammad's life reflected different "tones"?

P.s. given the tread title, what are your thoughts with regard to Hebrew Israelites?

Sorry to derail from the topic of the thread. I don't know much about them and have no comment about the Hebrew Isrealites. Answering a question with a question is not answering the question. Perhaps I will take this topic to a new thread.

 

[DesertRose]

Sorry this is an answer to a question about peace not about Hebrew Israelites.
the Israelites are currently under the anger of Creator hence why would anyone want to be an Israelite? God willing they will repent and seek correct guidance.

Regarding the necessity of helping the oppressed and the oppressor. The message requires that you repel/restrain evil oppressors but we have clear guidelines about the protection of the innocents:

"How should people deal with the transgressor and the transgressed:
After knowing the positions of the transgressor and the transgressed against, we need to know the stance that people should adopt towards each of them.
Anas

reported: “The Messenger of Allah

said: 'Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or is oppressed.' A man asked: 'O Messenger of Allah! I (know how to) help him when he is oppressed, but how can I help him when he is an oppressor?' He

said: 'You can restrain him from committing oppression. That will be your help to him.'” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Al-Baraa’

reported: “The Messenger of Allah

commanded us with seven things (one of which is): “Support the transgressed.”
Ibn `Umar

and his father, reported that the Messenger of Allah

said: “A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim. (So) he should not oppress him, nor should he forsake him (i.e. when he is being oppressed).” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Therefore, one must support the oppressed and the one who is being transgressed against; the one who refrains from supporting an oppressed person, whilst being able to, is sinful.
Abu Bakr

said: “O people! You recite this verse (which means): “O you who believe! Upon you is [responsibility for] yourselves. Those who have gone astray will not harm you when you have been guided...” [Quran 5:105] (but misinterpret it) for I have heard the Messenger of Allah

saying: 'When people see an oppressor but do not prevent him from (doing evil), it is likely that Allah will punish them all.'” [Abu Daawood and At-Tirmithi]
One should prevent the oppressor physically if possible, and this responsibility is greater with respect to the rulers and those in authority. If one cannot stop the oppressor physically, then he should do it verbally.
An oppressor must not be assisted:
Helping an oppressor is from the gravest of disasters; people should not imitate an oppressor and must prevent him and make him realise the wrong that he is doing; if people assist the oppressor then they will not get to drink from the fountain of the Prophet

as He

himself informed us of this being the case.
Some people support a transgressor because he is a relative or a fellow tribe member, but the Prophet

warned against such oppressive behavior."
DR: We also have a belief that the Creator will uphold a just society even if non Muslim.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sorry to derail from the topic of the thread. I don't know much about them and have no comment about the Hebrew Isrealites. Answering a question with a question is not answering the question. Perhaps I will take this topic to a new thread.

No worries! I'm not precious about threads. To answer your question, rather than try to get you to answer it for me, I certainly agree that the Qur'an contains many noble sentiments and verses of peace, tolerance and acceptance of others.

You will know better than me that this is not the whole story and that the later, more warlike phase of Muhammads life contain a more militaristic tone, and seem far less in keeping with his apparently younger sentiments.

In ignoring the earlier peaceful elements of Islam, ISIS fail to properly represent that aspect of Islam. In the same way, more zealous Wahabi Muslims may insist on the less tolerant and more expansionist interpretations of Islam.

That's just my take btw. I'm sure people will take their own view.

 

[DesertRose]

n ignoring the earlier peaceful elements of Islam, ISIS fail to properly represent that aspect of Islam. In the same way, more zealous Wahabi Muslims may insist on the less tolerant and more expansionist interpretations of Islam.

Red, here is a short talk on Isis types:

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Red, here is a short talk on Isis types:

I have come across a good many genuine Muslims who have nothing whatsoever in common with ISIS and have no sympathy towards them. In the states there are the stereotypical redneck types who associate multiple gun ownership, whiteness or racism with Christianity. A subset of people who believe a twisted message is useful to some who like to say "There - I told you so!" But nothing to do with the essentials of actual beliefs as they are held.

Don't worry, I don't think you are ISIS any more than you believe I am a member of the KKK ;-)

 

[DesertRose]

Don't worry, I don't think you are ISIS any more than you believe I am a member of the KKK ;-)

No worries, I never thought you would associate us with that. :- ).
sorry will not derail the thread further.