Freedom of Religion

rainerann

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@rainerann

Section 508(c) of the Internal Revenue Code provides that churches are not required to apply for recognition of Section 501(c)(3) status in order to be exempt from federal taxation or to receive tax deductible contributions. Churches are automatically exempt from Federal income tax, and contributions to churches are deductible by donors under section 170.

I don't have time to find all the documents and put everything together, so here are some links if you want to look into it yourself.
Disclaimer: I don't agree with every conclusion made on these websites and I'm not trying to convince you that 501c3 churches are from the devil (even though one of the sites below is). Just wanting to give you something to think about in terms of seperation of Church and state and the general direction our country appears to be heading with regard to that.

http://www.churchfreedom.org/usc-26-§-508c1a/
https://comingintheclouds.org/christian-resources/church/unbiblical-incorporation/
https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in Government/Police State/501c3_unbiblical.htm
http://hushmoney.org/501c3-problems.htm\
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/501c3.php
All tax laws are from the Devil. :p I will look into these websites. In general, I think tax laws exceed the authority the state should be permitted to have and the state should not be able to tax people by force. Removing tax law would reduce the size of government and this would effectively control the authority the state is permitted to have. Thanks for sharing.
 
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rainerann said:
a theocratic system is going to have a lot more power than the most centralized state will ever be able to acheive.
Running out of time so sorry for cherry picking something out of your post. A more extensive reply will follow tomorrow, but this caught my attention. What makes you say this when throughout Christian history Church tithing was generally 10% while now the secular state is taxing us at rates of 30, 35 to 55%?
 

TokiEl

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Suddenly Jesus Christ our Creator returns to the earth and that will be the end of all religions and governments.

And instead a living relationship with God will endure forever and ever. But before that the emerging Beast system will burn the old world order and arise as a global dictatorship which will last 3.5 years while chipping and connecting humanity to an AI.

Prepare to be persecuted and lose your lives for the Lord. As was God and most of His apostles.
 

Helioform

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Running out of time so sorry for cherry picking something out of your post. A more extensive reply will follow tomorrow, but this caught my attention. What makes you say this when throughout Christian history Church tithing was generally 10% while now the secular state is taxing us at rates of 30, 35 to 55%?
10% might not seem like much but often farmers paid with the produce they farmed and were left with very little for themselves because they did not farm on a very large scale. Also the Church accumulated so much tithe that it had to store it in huge tithe barns that were left there often unused, instead of leaving more for the peasants. Some countries such as England and Germany, had peasant revolts because mostly of high taxation.
 

rainerann

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@rainerann

Section 508(c) of the Internal Revenue Code provides that churches are not required to apply for recognition of Section 501(c)(3) status in order to be exempt from federal taxation or to receive tax deductible contributions. Churches are automatically exempt from Federal income tax, and contributions to churches are deductible by donors under section 170.

I don't have time to find all the documents and put everything together, so here are some links if you want to look into it yourself.
Disclaimer: I don't agree with every conclusion made on these websites and I'm not trying to convince you that 501c3 churches are from the devil (even though one of the sites below is). Just wanting to give you something to think about in terms of seperation of Church and state and the general direction our country appears to be heading with regard to that.

http://www.churchfreedom.org/usc-26-§-508c1a/
https://comingintheclouds.org/christian-resources/church/unbiblical-incorporation/
https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in Government/Police State/501c3_unbiblical.htm
http://hushmoney.org/501c3-problems.htm\
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/501c3.php
So I do remember hearing about the 501c3 thing years ago. There were a couple conversations about it in my church by some of the older members. This is almost 20 years ago, so I haven't really thought about it in a while. They were talking about the possibility of losing their 501c3 tax exemption based on what they said in sermons. I had integrated this possibility in my earliest study of prophecy about the covenant that is broken considering that the beast will violate a provision he has given to the church.

It has been so long since this, and no one really talks about this as much, I haven't even thought about it in a while.

http://www.churchfreedom.org/usc-26-§-508c1a/

I thought this site was very clear about the difference between the 501 and the 508, but what I was really looking for was something that would indicate that a pastor was required to serve FEMA and provide disaster counseling because of this. I still can't find something like this.

https://comingintheclouds.org/christian-resources/church/unbiblical-incorporation/

I'm pretty sure it was this site that does a good job explaining why we don't need the 501c3 because a church does not function in the same way a nonprofit does. A church is not established for the sole purpose of providing charity which is what the tax exemption is for. However, this one was a little excessive in the language it used to describe the place a church holds under 501, in my opinion. However, I know you weren't endorsing them.

I still couldn't find how they could require someone to serve FEMA according to this tax exemption.

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in Government/Police State/501c3_unbiblical.htm

This was a good breakdown of how the tax exemption was integrated into church culture not that long ago. Still, don't see how this requires FEMA service or how it influences the church or tells the church what they can and cannot say. That doesn't mean that it doesn't, but it is speculative and doesn't seem to be written in the law. Those pastors may be training by choice.

What could likely happen as taxes continue to make the state increase in size and continue impoverishing our communities, is that at some point the church will not be able to independently support itself. When a church has to find ways to receive funding for itself through the government, the government will automatically be able to control the church.

This is the same process that happens with charitable organizations that are 501c3. There are even legal cases about this. I remember one in particular from a political science class years ago about a Catholic hospital that was ax exempt, but receiving money from the state to operate. The conclusion was that depending on the amount of money the hospital received would determine whether they were required to follow state guidelines as opposed to their own independent guidelines.

Now, since there isn't one hospital that can function without receiving money from the state, they are all state hospitals basically. Our country has a history of independently run Catholic hospitals though, that didn't have to follow state guidelines. I think many people take for granted that we have so many hospitals named after saints. This is because they were founded by the Catholic church and at one point created their own culture because of this.

I do see this as a possibility, but they would have to impoverish our country a little more before the church started looking to the state for money to operate. The person who pays for it gets to make the rules basically. It really does look like a sleeper statute from the information on the websites. Although, if you do have anything more specific about why this would legitimizes drafting pastors into service to FEMA, I would appreciate it.
 

rainerann

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Running out of time so sorry for cherry picking something out of your post. A more extensive reply will follow tomorrow, but this caught my attention. What makes you say this when throughout Christian history Church tithing was generally 10% while now the secular state is taxing us at rates of 30, 35 to 55%?
I think tax law exceeds the power that a state should have. The 10% tithe in the church is supposed to be about supporting the priests who do not have another means of supporting themselves.

Although, the problem seems to stem from what people believe a state is permitted to do. Many people believe that the state has permission to do things like this because they don't function as a religious organization where something like this would be seen as oppressive. However, they don't really know how to define a state and the state takes advantage of this.

So it is essentially the same problem in reverse. People do not understand boundaries created by the separation of church and state. The state doesn't have the authority to tax in an amount that exceeds the amount that was traditionally given to provide for a position that had no other means of support. They should not be able to tax in an amount higher than this because the people should not be paying for anything within the state beyond the salary of our elected representatives who are in a similar position and without another means of support.

That should be the size of the state if we truly applied separation of church and state to create boundaries and distribute power.
 

Todd

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The 10% tithe in the church is supposed to be about supporting the priests who do not have another means of supporting themselves.
This statement is 100% correct if you replace Church with OT Israel. There are no priests in a biblical NT church, which is why there is zero mention of the tithe in the NT.

By paying tithes Christians are submitting themselves to a false priesthood (I’m not pointing fingers at pastors personally, as most of them don’t really understand the issue). Jesus has become the mediator between God and man. By paying tithes Christians unknowingly place themselves in a position where they are saying they need a go between to hear from God. It may be a reason so many “lay” people don’t know how to hear from God on their own.
 

rainerann

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This statement is 100% correct if you replace Church with OT Israel. There are no priests in a biblical NT church, which is why there is zero mention of the tithe in the NT.

By paying tithes Christians are submitting themselves to a false priesthood (I’m not pointing fingers at pastors personally, as most of them don’t really understand the issue). Jesus has become the mediator between God and man. By paying tithes Christians unknowingly place themselves in a position where they are saying they need a go between to hear from God. It may be a reason so many “lay” people don’t know how to hear from God on their own.
Well yes this is where it comes, but I don't know that if the church pays a 10% tithe that this means they are submitting themselves to a false priesthood or believe they need a go-between. From what I have seen, most people see this as a way of allowing a pastor to be a pastor as a full-time job, not a way of creating a go-between.

It is more like the standard percentage to tip a waitress is about 15%. The tithe is a good thing because it means that churches are able to be self-supporting and autonomous.
 

floss

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The 10% tithe in the church is supposed to be about supporting the priests who do not have another means of supporting themselves.
This is 50% true. There are spiritual aspect as well that I and many of my church member have experiences. Its depend on what you ask God to do with your offering. If you’re doing it with the intention of church support, that’s what you’ll get. However, if you tithe with a spiritual intention, you’ll receive whatever that spiritual intention if its lined up with His will. Plus, my church never force anybody to tithe, its really between you and the Lord. I support tithing ONLY if you know for sure its going toward the Lord’s work. I never give these TV preacher anything, rather put them on BLACK, which will yield the same result.

If you’ve never experiences result from tithing, it will be hard to pull that $100 bill out of your pocket. It was hard for me at first because I’m broke but once I try my best on committing to the 10% tithing (sometime I do fall short) the Lord has opened new doors and opportunity for me. I already promised the Lord to open a Christian orphanage school/housing when I hit my goal. Tithe in Faith and you will see blessing.
 
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rainerann

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This is 50% true. There are spiritual aspect as well that I and many of my church member have experiences. Its depend on what you ask God to do with your offering. If you’re doing it with the intention of church support, that’s what you’ll get. However, if you tithe with a spiritual intention, you’ll receive whatever that spiritual intention if its lined up with His will. Plus, my church never force anybody to tithe, its really between you and the Lord. I support tithing ONLY if you know for sure its going toward the Lord’s work. I never give these TV preacher anything, rather put them on BLACK, which will yield the same result.

If you’ve never experiences result from tithing, it will be hard to pull that $100 bill out of your pocket. It was hard for me at first because I’m broke but once I try my best on committing to the 10% tithing (sometime I do fall short) the Lord has opened new doors and opportunity for me. I already promised the Lord to open a Christian orphanage school/housing when I hit my goal. Tithe in Faith and you will see blessing.
I actually have experienced what you were saying. I have probably giving up to 15% in tithes and charities at one point. It is a supernatural experience. However, it is also for a very practical purpose as well. The only thing that I have realized is that the amount is not as important as the heart and the discernment of where you should give to the Lord.

I think the 10% is just a practical standard to create the opportunity for a pastor to serve fulltime and it creates the discipline to understand the spiritual lessons of giving. It is a good place to start the journey, so it is a practical way for churches to answer this question to people who want to be told what to do when they are new to the faith.

Every Sunday is newcomers day in church and it is important that we don't forget that some people haven't been in church very long and don't know whether the spirit is saying to give 5 dollars or 10. Sometimes people feel insecure and when they are seeking God they want to know that they are doing the right thing. The 10% recommendation gives them a way to take a leap of faith and experience something supernatural, so I would never discourage the church from doing this. The principle is somewhat vague otherwise and you won't learn the supernatural consequence of giving by listening to a sermon trying to clarify what the New Testament teaches. You have to learn by doing, so people need a way to get started.
 

floss

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I actually have experienced what you were saying. I have probably giving up to 15% in tithes and charities at one point. It is a supernatural experience. However, it is also for a very practical purpose as well. The only thing that I have realized is that the amount is not as important as the heart and the discernment of where you should give to the Lord.

I think the 10% is just a practical standard to create the opportunity for a pastor to serve fulltime and it creates the discipline to understand the spiritual lessons of giving. It is a good place to start the journey, so it is a practical way for churches to answer this question to people who want to be told what to do when they are new to the faith.

Every Sunday is newcomers day in church and it is important that we don't forget that some people haven't been in church very long and don't know whether the spirit is saying to give 5 dollars or 10. Sometimes people feel insecure and when they are seeking God they want to know that they are doing the right thing. The 10% recommendation gives them a way to take a leap of faith and experience something supernatural, so I would never discourage the church from doing this. The principle is somewhat vague otherwise and you won't learn the supernatural consequence of giving by listening to a sermon trying to clarify what the New Testament teaches. You have to learn by doing, so people need a way to get started.
Amen!

Its definitely a leap of faith. The first time I pulled out the $100 bill, I can see Benjamin in tears lol! I was hesistating and double minded too. I was like: Lord, you sure you want this $100 bill? But its was only that first leap of (not so much) faith, after that I don’t even think about it anymore and the Lord continue to bless me.
 

Todd

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Well yes this is where it comes, but I don't know that if the church pays a 10% tithe that this means they are submitting themselves to a false priesthood or believe they need a go-between. From what I have seen, most people see this as a way of allowing a pastor to be a pastor as a full-time job, not a way of creating a go-between.

It is more like the standard percentage to tip a waitress is about 15%. The tithe is a good thing because it means that churches are able to be self-supporting and autonomous.
You can think it’s whatever you want it to be, but it’s not Biblical. Jesus specifically told the disciples not to accept money for the gospel. Their is no biblical precedent for a full time pastor.

Let me add though that giving and alms is biblical and i do believe God is faithful to honor and return our giving when done in faith with a cheerful heart. I simply believe the teaching of 10% tithe that must go to your local church that you are a member of, as presented in most churches, is not biblical.
 

rainerann

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You can think it’s whatever you want it to be, but it’s not Biblical. Jesus specifically told the disciples not to accept money for the gospel. Their is no biblical precedent for a full time pastor.
Well it may be a little bit like training wheels, but that is what some people may need at one point in their life. This is one of the many reasons having freedom of religion is important. People should have the freedom to support a pastor if that is the way they want to build their own spritual community.

Would you rather have the ability to control the church and make it illegal to create a system like this because you have determined it is unbiblical?
 

Todd

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Well it may be a little bit like training wheels, but that is what some people may need at one point in their life. This is one of the many reasons having freedom of religion is important. People should have the freedom to support a pastor if that is the way they want to build their own spritual community.

Would you rather have the ability to control the church and make it illegal to create a system like this because you have determined it is unbiblical?
I don’t have a problem with people giving joyfully, out of the abundance of their heart. I have a problem with churches presenting the tithe as a biblical mandate. That’s the problem with full time paid ministry. It puts unnecessary financial burden on both the ministers themselves and the congregation resulting in pressure from the pulpit with unbiblical teaching.

If Christians would realize that Christ fulfilled the ministry of the priest and would reject the man made differentiation between clergy and laity, the burden of caring, teaching, nurturing, counseling, etc would never be on one person ( or a select few). There would be no need for paid ministry and people would be able to give freely to those in need.
 

rainerann

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I don’t have a problem with people giving joyfully, out of the abundance of their heart. I have a problem with churches presenting the tithe as a biblical mandate. That’s the problem with full time paid ministry. It puts unnecessary financial burden on both the ministers themselves and the congregation resulting in pressure from the pulpit with unbiblical teaching.

If Christians would realize that Christ fulfilled the ministry of the priest and would reject the man-made differentiation between clergy and laity, the burden of caring, teaching, nurturing, counseling, etc would never be on one person ( or a select few). There would be no need for paid ministry and people would be able to give freely to those in need.
Personally, I think the 10% recommendation is a good starting point for a new believer because it accomplishes the most basic principle for asking for things in faith by removing doubt.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. " (Matthew 7:7)

"But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.…"(James 1:6-7)

When a person is new to faith, and they feel unsure about what to give because they are still experiencing a natural inclination towards superstition, if you give 5 dollars or a hundred it won't matter if you have doubt in your heart.

When a person believes that giving 10% is something that pleases God because it is what He has requested in the past, they don't experience doubt. Then, they do experience a supernatural result because they do not doubt. So this is a good thing.

However, again, there are boundaries to this as there are boundaries to everything where this suggestion can create harm and make a person complacent and become legalistic about something like this.

However, trying to control every error that can result is impossible. Therefore, freedom of religion allows people to be a beginner and change throughout the course of their spiritual walk in a way that provides the best solution to the problems that can be created with any recommendation like this. It is beneficial to a point. When it exceeds this point and stretches beyond the boundaries that exist for this principle, it is no longer effective. However, being ineffective should not have legal consequences or be treated as a crime, which is why there should be separation of church and state.
 

Todd

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Personally, I think the 10% recommendation is a good starting point for a new believer because it accomplishes the most basic principle for asking for things in faith by removing doubt.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. " (Matthew 7:7)

"But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.…"(James 1:6-7)

When a person is new to faith, and they feel unsure about what to give because they are still experiencing a natural inclination towards superstition, if you give 5 dollars or a hundred it won't matter if you have doubt in your heart.

When a person believes that giving 10% is something that pleases God because it is what He has requested in the past, they don't experience doubt. Then, they do experience a supernatural result because they do not doubt. So this is a good thing.

However, again, there are boundaries to this as there are boundaries to everything where this suggestion can create harm and make a person complacent and become legalistic about something like this.

However, trying to control every error that can result is impossible. Therefore, freedom of religion allows people to be a beginner and change throughout the course of their spiritual walk in a way that provides the best solution to the problems that can be created with any recommendation like this. It is beneficial to a point. When it exceeds this point and stretches beyond the boundaries that exist for this principle, it is no longer effective. However, being ineffective should not have legal consequences or be treated as a crime, which is why there should be separation of church and state.
Which brings us back full circle to 501c3 and the state having authority over the church because the church wants to assure its sheeple that their “tithe” is tax deductible!

I understand your intentions and have no problem with your perspective, but that just is not the reality in the majority of Churches in the USA.
 
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