Christian viewpoints and "supporting israel"

Red Sky at Morning

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I had a thought when I was driving so I pulled over…

Do you think that the Book of Isaiah (~700bc) illustrates a futurist reading? I’m just listening to Dr James Tour on Isaiah and it’s Messianic prophecies, which were specifically and literally fulfilled by Jesus.

 

phipps

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I have a question about this 7 years having already happened topic again.

Does that mean the 42 months/1260 days signaling the first half of the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 11 have a dual application?

Revelation 11
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will
Chapter 11 which is written in symbolic language (most of the symbols in Revelation come from the Old Testament), is one of the most difficult chapters to interpret in the book of Revelation. Its one of those books that we must be careful not to misinterpret. We have to adhere strictly to Bible principles of interpretation.

I can't explain everything in detail because that will be too long winded.

Verse 2, "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Since Israel is those who accept and have faith in Jesus, the Gentiles are the direct opposite and they persecute God's people/holy city. The church here is being referred to as the "holy city."

Verse 3
says, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." This was the period of papal supremacy and we know this because whenever 42 months/1260 days (1260 literal years) are mentioned, the Bible is talking about a specific time when God's people/the church were persecuted for their faith. This time period is mentioned in the book of Daniel too and it includes the dark ages. Papal supremacy started in 538 to 1798.

“... they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth." I remember when I studied about the dark ages in my history class when I was secondary school/high school, we learned that the Bible was scarce in those days. Those who had the Bible had only parts of it. The Catholic church didn't want people to read the Bible because they were teaching false doctrine and didn't want people to find out. It was illegal to have a Bible and if anybody was caught with one other than catholic clergy, they were killed if they didn't escape. God's people indeed prophesied in sackcloth.

Sackcloth in Bible times was used in connection with affliction, mourning, desolation. It points to the difficult time when the truths of the Bible were buried, and covered by man made traditions.

Revelation was written after Jesus' ministry, and the 3.5 years immediately after. Views on whether it was written before or after the destruction of the temple vary. So rather than prophecy is it a recap of past events, filling in details that were not mentioned in the gospels or Acts? Who were the two witneses?

Or will this happen again in the future?
The apostle John who wrote the book of Revelation was the prophet that lived longest and the last one to die. The book of Revelation was written almost 60 years after the 70 weeks/490 years ended while he was exiled on the island of Patmos by the Romans. So the book of Revelation was written more than 20 years after the destruction of the temple which was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans.

The book of Revelation is about the future especially in John's time. Revelation 1:1 says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."

For us today most of the events prophesied in the book of Revelation have happened and very little prophecy is left to be fulfilled before Jesus returns.

The two witnesses represent the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. The idea of two witnesses comes from the Jewish legal system, which requires at least two witnesses to establish something as true. The two witnesses cannot be separated. Jesus said:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14).

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39).

The witnesses are pictured as prophesying in sackcloth (the Bible would prophesy in obscurity and secrecy) during the prophetic period of 1,260 days/years in verse 3.

Verses 5 and 6 confirm that the two witnesses represent the Word of God, "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed."

Whoever hurts, defiles, perverts, conceals, hinders God's Word, if they do not repent, they will in the judgement be destroyed by fire and eternal death.

Verse 6, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." This is about the plagues that will fall on the unsaved.

Revelation 11:7-13 gives us more detail about this beast that persecutes God's people. Verse 7 says, "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." "Them" is God's people during papal supremacy. At the end of the 1260 years the French army entered Rome and made the Pope a prisoner. France rose to make war upon the word of God too.
 
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Flarepath

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Don't overdo the "searching and studying" mate-
Paul said - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
And Jesus had to tell the snooty priestly classes the same thing-
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)
I could even speculate that it's satanic to suggest to people that heavy-duty bible study is necessary..;)
Then how will people know if what they believe lines up with God.
These days too many people operate on feelings alone and no doctrine.

I've known some christians who think they've got to relentlessly read every page of the bible day after day, and they've ended up half-nutty with tired minds which is exactly what satan wants, because he has tired minds for breakfast..:)
Personally I haven't picked up a bible for years because I know the gospels off by heart, and they're simple enough to understand-
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)
 

Flarepath

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...if satan is loosed to gather the newly resurrected wicked ones and war against the saints wno are in new Jerusalem, then wouldn't new Jerusalem come down (for the 1st and only time) around the same time, not after?..

That's just longwinded abstract mythology and symbolism, so don't waste your time trying to understand it, I certainly don't..:)
Remember, stay Jesus-focussed-
Paul said - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
 

Karlysymon

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For the last almost 2 months i've just been asking myself over and over, if salvation is through faith, and cant be lost, then why do Christians get told to support israel? How can people turn a blind eye to the suffering of so many innocent people, if salvation - the only thing that matters - is not at stake?



Soon an “Evangelical statement in support of Israel” was issued by the ethics and religion liberty commission – an arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, a denomination which has 45,000 churches in the US.

In the statement, 2,000 evangelical leaders – not all were named – said they “fully support Israel’s right and duty to defend itself against further attack”. Little credence was given to the Palestinians who would soon find themselves under attack: more than 8,000 people in Gaza have now been killed by Israeli bombardments, according to Gaza’s health ministry .

“While our theological perspectives on Israel and the Church may vary, we are unified in calling attacks against Jewish people especially troubling as they have been often targeted by their neighbors since God called them as His people in the days of Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3),” the evangelical statement said.



As i mentioned a couple posts ago, Genesis 12 takes place long before there were any "Jews" around.



One main strand of evangelical theology holds that the return of Jews to the region starts the clock ticking on a seven-year armageddon, after which Jesus Christ will return.

To that end, the issue of Israel and Palestine has dominated sermons at evangelical churches over the past two Sundays, said Daniel Hummel, a historian of American religion, and the author of Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and US-Israeli Relations.
...

Broadly speaking, some evangelicals believe that Jewish people returning to Israel following the 1917 Balfour Declaration, a British statement which called for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, was key to end times, when God will purge sinners and Jesus Christ will return.

John Hagee, an evangelical pastor and influential founder of Christians United for Israel, explained the prophecy to TBN Networks in December 2022.

“God is getting ready to defend Israel in such a supernatural way it’s going to take the breath out of the lungs of the dictators on planet Earth but we are living on the cusp of the greatest most supernatural series of events the world has ever seen ready or not.”

Hagee said when Jewish people are present in Israel “the clock starts ticking” on the rapture.


“What will come soon [is] the antichrist and his seven year empire that will be destroyed in the battle of armageddon. Then Jesus Christ will set up his throne in the city of Jerusalem. He will establish a kingdom that will never end,” Hagee said.



Turns out it gets worse - people are "blessing israel" in exchange for personal - or national - blessings.

Money. People are cheering on the killing of innocent people for money. No wonder "prosperity gospel" churches are among the most pro-israel.

How that is any different from the blood sacrifices the elites perform, i don't know.

The source for both is one and the same.


From the same article (and it is disgusting that this article's author considers this motive "less outlandish" than a belief in hastening the end times - how can this blood sacrifice for money be so normalized?)


While there are plenty of evangelicals who, like Hagee, adhere to the Israel-is-key-to-Jesus’-return theology, there are also those who believe in “blessings theology”, a less outlandish, more transactional approach to support for Israel.

The blessings theology is based on a literal reading of the book of Genesis, where God told Abraham – who Hummel described as “the patriarch of the Jewish people” – that he would “bless those who bless you” and “curse those who curse you”.

“For the last couple of centuries this has been interpreted on individual terms. So you can accrue personal blessings by being good to the Jewish people, or by giving money, or touring Israel or things like that,” Hummel said.

That also works on a national level, he said.

“And so the crude way of doing this is a pastor will say something like: ‘Look at the Roman Empire and how they persecuted the Jews and Rome fell. Look at the British Empire and how the British didn’t treat the Jews well, and how they fell. Look at the Nazis and how they persecuted the Jews, and they fell.

And we, the Americans, don’t want to be the next Empire or the next great power to fall because we didn’t sufficiently bless the Jewish people.’”

There are also those whose support is “more broadly American”, Hummel said: “There’s a deep cultural affinity that’s been built over decades and decades between the US and Israel all across the board.”
...
Fang asked Tim Burchett, a Republican congressman from Tennessee, about evangelical support.

They’re following the scripture, and what the scripture says about Israel: ‘Those who bless Israel will be blessed,’ they take it literal, and I’m one of those people,” Burchett said.




If and when the US falls it's not from lack of "blessing" modern israel, but because of turning away from God.

This is a country that murder innocents by the millions and cheers on degeneracy. To think that God will overlook this because of sending money to the country of israel casts some serious doubt on God's righteousness.
He will initiate the final sequence of events when He pleases.Regardless if one believes in a pre-tribulation rapture or not, the notion that humans can force God's hand by setting up the events in order to hasten Jesus' return makes God out to be much less powerful than He is.
In my ponderings on the Israel question pre-October 7th, i hadn't anticipated the sharp division presently playing out but you can be damn sure TPTB are watching all this closely and iam now wondering how all of this is going to be purposefully amplified.

A little detail jumped out at me in the Guardian article you posted. Why are those people so sure that this war is "prophetically significant"? It will be "prophetically significant" alright....because that is the 200yr old NWO plan. I've said so many times now that we are going to have a religious psyop and given the sharp division currently playing out, everyone is going to be either on the wrong side or right side of history....just like the covid psyop played out.

This whole thing is going to denude Dispensationalism and it's adherents better prepare their hearts & minds.

I'll add that the foremost thumpers of Genesis 12 point to America's economic "success" as a result of "blessing" Israel but they'll blame anything else for America's economic ills. 7 trillion spent in Middle East wars to protect Israel.....an expense that has led to massive economic disparity in America.
 
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@ToxicFemininitySucks

I had a thought when I was driving so I pulled over…

Do you think that the Book of Isaiah (~700bc) illustrates a futurist reading? I’m just listening to Dr James Tour on Isaiah and it’s Messianic prophecies, which were specifically and literally fulfilled by Jesus.

I do think there are prophesies in Isaiah that have not been fulfilled yet.

For instance, in Luke 4, Jesus reads from Isaiah 61, but stops mid verse

Luke 4:18-19
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears


Isaiah 61
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn


He read the part that had been fulfilled (by Him, at His first coming), but the rest is still to come.

I think the problem starts happening when people take prophecies and make them literal instead of spiritual, especially when it's just a verse out of context.

Let's take Isaiah 9
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this


Is a physical kingdom prophecied, or a spiritual one? Jesus did say His kingdom is not of this world...

But, those that deny Jesus will not care what He says, which means theyre going to take it literal, make it about a physical kingdom. And who knows what the talmud commentary has to say about these verses... or what "god" they are worshipping...

To get back to the main topic, i don't see how anywhere in scripture it says that Christians must support the country of israel's militaristic goals. It is not part of the gospel.
 
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Chapter 11 which is written in symbolic language (most of the symbols in Revelation come from the Old Testament), is one of the most difficult chapters to interpret in the book of Revelation. Its one of those books that we must be careful not to misinterpret. We have to adhere strictly to Bible principles of interpretation.

I can't explain everything in detail because that will be too long winded.
Do you have a thread already about this topic?


Verse 2, "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Since Israel is those who accept and have faith in Jesus, the Gentiles are the direct opposite and they persecute God's people/holy city. The church here is being referred to as the "holy city."

Verse 3
says, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." This was the period of papal supremacy and we know this because whenever 42 months/1260 days (1260 literal years) are mentioned, the Bible is talking about a specific time when God's people/the church were persecuted for their faith. This time period is mentioned in the book of Daniel too and it includes the dark ages. Papal supremacy started in 538 to 1798.

“... they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth." I remember when I studied about the dark ages in my history class when I was secondary school/high school, we learned that the Bible was scarce in those days. Those who had the Bible had only parts of it. The Catholic church didn't want people to read the Bible because they were teaching false doctrine and didn't want people to find out. It was illegal to have a Bible and if anybody was caught with one other than catholic clergy, they were killed if they didn't escape. God's people indeed prophesied in sackcloth.

Sackcloth in Bible times was used in connection with affliction, mourning, desolation. It points to the difficult time when the truths of the Bible were buried, and covered by man made traditions.
I think my main issue with seeing it as years instead of literal days is that the Greek actually does not say "42 months" and "1260 days".

for 42
τεσσεράκοντα (tesserakonta)
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 5062: Forty. The decade of tessares; forty.


It's translated elsewhere in the New Testament as 40.


for 1,260
χιλίας (chilias)
Adjective - Accusative Feminine Plural
Strong's 5507: A thousand. Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand.

Elsewhere translated as 1000

I figured the reason it was translated as such was because of cross referencing with Daniel.

Are you saying the translators knew in advance when the period of papal supremacy would end? Or that the translators were inspired/had advanced revelation?

I remember when I studied about the dark ages in my history class when I was secondary school/high school, we learned that the Bible was scarce in those days. Those who had the Bible had only parts of it. The Catholic church didn't want people to read the Bible because they were teaching false doctrine and didn't want people to find out. It was illegal to have a Bible and if anybody was caught with one other than catholic clergy, they were killed if they didn't escape. God's people indeed prophesied in sackcloth.

Sackcloth in Bible times was used in connection with affliction, mourning, desolation. It points to the difficult time when the truths of the Bible were buried, and covered by man made traditions.
Yes, those were difficult times for sure. I often thank God that i am alive now and not during those times.

The apostle John who wrote the book of Revelation was the prophet that lived longest and the last one to die. The book of Revelation was written almost 60 years after the 70 weeks/490 years ended while he was exiled on the island of Patmos by the Romans. So the book of Revelation was written more than 20 years after the destruction of the temple which was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans.

The book of Revelation is about the future especially in John's time. Revelation 1:1 says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."
Yes, i agree. It's my view that Revelation was written after the temple was destroyed.

The two witnesses represent the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. The idea of two witnesses comes from the Jewish legal system, which requires at least two witnesses to establish something as true. The two witnesses cannot be separated. Jesus said:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14).

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39).

The witnesses are pictured as prophesying in sackcloth (the Bible would prophesy in obscurity and secrecy) during the prophetic period of 1,260 days/years in verse 3.

Verses 5 and 6 confirm that the two witnesses represent the Word of God, "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed."

Whoever hurts, defiles, perverts, conceals, hinders God's Word, if they do not repent, they will in the judgement be destroyed by fire and eternal death.
Interesting.
What does them being killed and their bodies lying in the street for 3 days symbolize?

Verse 6, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." This is about the plagues that will fall on the unsaved.
Is this part going forward to the end times?

Revelation 11:7-13 gives us more detail about this beast that persecutes God's people. Verse 7 says, "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." "Them" is God's people during papal supremacy. At the end of the 1260 years the French army entered Rome and made the Pope a prisoner. France rose to make war upon the word of God too
This part is a bit confusing. The pope is the beast, who wages war against God's people, but then France is waging war against both the pope and God's people?
 
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I've known some christians who think they've got to relentlessly read every page of the bible day after day, and they've ended up half-nutty with tired minds which is exactly what satan wants, because he has tired minds for breakfast..:)
Personally I haven't picked up a bible for years because I know the gospels off by heart, and they're simple enough to understand-
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)
No offense, but perhaps more Bible reading would help you with your lascivious thoughts...

Matthew 5
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

Galatians 5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness...


Lucky little kid..:)
When I was 11 me and my school chums certainly wished our dishy school secretary Wendy would have "molested" us..:)
The Wicker Man (1973) was screened again on TV last night; who can forget the rivetting scene below where Christopher Lee presents a young boy to the pub landlord's daughter so she can teach him the art of love?
No doubt some stuffed shirts might find the scene offensive, but personally i think he's a lucky little f*cker..:)

View attachment 97821
 
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In my ponderings on the Israel question pre-October 7th, i hadn't anticipated the sharp division presently playing out but you can be damn sure TPTB are watching all this closely and iam now wondering how all of this is going to be purposefully amplified.

A little detail jumped out at me in the Guardian article you posted. Why are those people so sure that this war is "prophetically significant"? It will be "prophetically significant" alright....because that is the 200yr old NWO plan. I've said so many times now that we are going to have a religious psyop and given the sharp division currently playing out, everyone is going to be either on the wrong side or right side of history....just like the covid psyop played out.
While i definitely dont have it all figured out by far, i can see that the division is most definitely part of the agenda.
Especially interesting, given the mention of the covid psyop, that many of the sources that i had come to rely on for info on the right side of that psyop have completely let me down. But many are going right along with it and getting played.

I can see that the surest way of making sure prophecies come true is if they "fulfill" them themselves. The timeing of the start of this fits in perfectly, for those who are aware of the dates of Old Testament feasts.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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To get back to the main topic, i don't see how anywhere in scripture it says that Christians must support the country of israel's militaristic goals. It is not part of the gospel.
I was once a school governor and one of the aspects of the job was to be a “Critical Friend” to the school. As such, we were to support all that the school could and ought to be, yet call out the issues where it failed in its mission. I think this is a good example of two Messianic Jews calling out some secular ones, relating to the specific and once future prophecies of Isaiah 53:

 

phipps

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Do you have a thread already about this topic?
No I don't. I don't know how to because Revelation is mainly written in symbolic language, in order to understand it we have got to read and study other parts of the Bible that use the same figurative language or mention the same situations in order to understand it. The Bible is its own interpreter after all. We have to do that with all 22 chapters so I think its a book that we all have to study on our own mostly with God guiding us of course because scripture cannot be correctly interpreted without the aid of the Holy Spirit.

I think my main issue with seeing it as years instead of literal days is that the Greek actually does not say "42 months" and "1260 days".

for 42
τεσσεράκοντα (tesserakonta)
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 5062: Forty. The decade of tessares; forty.


It's translated elsewhere in the New Testament as 40.


for 1,260
χιλίας (chilias)
Adjective - Accusative Feminine Plural
Strong's 5507: A thousand. Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand.

Elsewhere translated as 1000

I figured the reason it was translated as such was because of cross referencing with Daniel.

Are you saying the translators knew in advance when the period of papal supremacy would end? Or that the translators were inspired/had advanced revelation?
When symbolic and figurative language is used and its not literal in Bible prophecy, days are not actuals days, they are years. So the day - year interpretation principle is applied (Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:5-6).

For example we know that in the book of Daniel (Daniel 8:17, 19, 26), Daniel is told in one way or another that the prophetic vision he was given was for the “end.” In fact, he was specifically told that the vision concerning “the evening and the morning” (the 2,300 days) “refers to many days in the future” (Daniel 8:26). These facts help us prove that the time prophecy in Daniel 8 isn’t literal.

Once, the day-year principle is applied, the time prophecies make more sense, fitting in much better with the scale of events in
which they are depicted and historically too.

I don't know if the translators knew or understood the prophecies and time periods in them, but their task was to translate the Bible as accurately as possible.

Yes, those were difficult times for sure. I often thank God that i am alive now and not during those times.
I thank God too. But we are heading towards a very difficult time too, more difficult than the dark ages and if I'm still alive, I don't know if I can bear those times. I believe God is going to put some people to sleep before those difficult times when Christians will be persecuted so that they won't be lost eternally.

Interesting.

What does them being killed and their bodies lying in the street for 3 days symbolize?
I have to explain a few verses before.

Revelation 11:7 says, "When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them."

A beast in Bible symbology represents a political power or kingdom.

It arises out of the bottomless pit. Whenever bottomless pit is used in the book of Revelation, Satan is the inspirer and controller. The bottomless pit represents Satan's kingdom and any person or power that arises from it is inspired by Satan.

It makes war against and persecutes God's people.

Revelation 11:8, "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Sodom in the book of Genesis was notorious for its immorality and was destroyed by divine intervention. During the revolution France manifested a state of moral debasement similar to that of Sodom.

Egypt was a country known for its defiance and refusal to recognise the existence of the true God. Pharaoh denied the existence of God. This is atheism and France did exactly that.

Revelation 11:9, "Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves."

This happened after the French took the pope prisoner at the end of 1260 years of papal rule. The papacy had been opposed to the Bible especially in the common tongue/language of the people. But France is against the Bible (two witnesses) in such a way that the Bible sees it as being "slain" for three and a half years. Taking into account that a prophetic day represents a literal year.

It is an established fact historically that during the French revolution, religion was abolished. The Christian religion in France at that time was Catholicism which had oppressed them. So in anger they attacked everything associated with religion.

They abolished the seven day week because it was associated with creation, all the churches closed and their lands confiscated, the clergy and aristocracy including their king and queen were executed, the Bible was banned. Bibles were collected and publicly burnt on the streets.

But then 31/2 years later a national assembly was held and it was decided that religion be restored and the Bible be tolerated. Its amazing how prophecy was fulfilled in detail in this prophecy.

In reaction to the revolution, many people and nations defended the Bible and the Christian faith.

The revolution did not and couldn't stop the Bible. Today the Bible has been taken to every part of the world.

Is this part going forward to the end times?
Yes, the part of the plagues. The rain not falling/drought is about not having the Word of God/two witnesses for the 31/2 years. Water is sometimes used as a symbol for God's Word in the Bible (living water).

This part is a bit confusing. The pope is the beast, who wages war against God's people, but then France is waging war against both the pope and God's people?
I explain this above. A beast in prophecy represents a political power or kingdom. Not all the beasts mentioned in Revelation are the papacy. This one represents France, the power that banned the Bible for three and a half years. So they too waged war against God and His people who had to go into hiding.
 
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Flarepath

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No offense, but perhaps more Bible reading would help you with your lascivious thoughts...

I'm a normal healthy hetero male..:)
Jesus said:-"The Creator made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' So they are no longer two, but one." (Matt 19:4)
No offense, but are you one of them blokes who don't like women?..;)

 
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I was once a school governor and one of the aspects of the job was to be a “Critical Friend” to the school. As such, we were to support all that the school could and ought to be, yet call out the issues where it failed in its mission
If the school is a metaphor for israel, i just have to say that the vast majority of the "support israel" crowd is NOT calling out any of the issues. To do so, in their view, is "cursing" israel...
I think this is a good example of two Messianic Jews calling out some secular ones, relating to the specific and once future prophecies of Isaiah 53:

Yeah, a messianic Jew can reach other Jews in a way that a gentile can't.

I dont think secular Jews are as difficult to preach to as ultra religious ones who believe Jesus is the antichrist or something though.

http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against certain details of the Law in order to make the breach (v. 6, 7). This is the reason that verse 1 commands us not to add or subtract any details from the Law, and verse 5 warns us to remain steadfast with all the traditions of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies
. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin.

Naturally, Jesus did sometimes pretend to respect the Law, but whenever he thought he could get away with it, he turned right around and broke that same Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, he declared that he came to fulfill the Law, and in Matthew 23:1-3 he defended the authority of the rabbis. But the rest of the time, he rebelled against the Law—thus showing that his occasional words of piety were meant only to hide his evil agenda. The following sins of Jesus are recorded in the "New Testament":

  1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel's strict adherence to kashrus, in Daniel chapter 1.]
  2. He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
  3. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).
  4. 4) He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man's arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d's view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]
  5. Jesus brazenly defied and disobeyed the rabbis of the Sanhedrin, repudiating their authority (This is recorded in many places throughout the New Testament, but look especially at Matthew 23:13-39 and John 8:44-45).
The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

  1. He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
  2. He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
  3. He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh—which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).
The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening.

...

What is the true key to salvation? Those who return to the Law (the Seven Commandments for the Children of Noah, according to the eternal covenant made with Noah in Genesis 9) and who assist the Jewish people (Isaiah 60, 61, 66) will be saved and will participate in the miracles and revelations, including worshipping in the Third Temple, under the kingship of the Messiah. As described in many places, including Jeremiah 16:19-21 and Zechariah 8:20-23, all the old gentile religions of the world will disappear, and their followers will turn to the Jews for spiritual leadership. Until then, Christians are spiritually blinded, and cannot yet understand G-d's wisdom in the Bible.

Ours is the last generation of the era of sin and evil and the first of the Messianic Era. Indeed, for the first time in history, there is a growing consensus of leading rabbis willing to name the man most suited to be the Messiah, and they are agreeing that he is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson. The Rebbe is the spiritual leader of our generation, having boldly stirred up controversy over vital issues in which other leaders have remained tragically silent or have even caved in to the growing forces of darkness. He has upheld the Law perfectly and has worked mightily to strengthen the observance of the Law by Jews, as well as the observance of the Noachide Law by gentiles. Through his teaching of chasidus (Jewish mystical teachings, preserved from Moses and Mount Sinai), he has taught the world that G-d is One, the Infinite Who renews creation at every moment. The Rebbe is a direct descendant of King David and has received a true prophecy from G-d that we who are alive in this generation shall be the first in history to see the coming of the true messiah. Many Jews are eagerly anticipating the Rebbe's resurrection from the grave, ready to re-establish the Sanhedrin and anoint the king.

Our job is to finish preparing the way, by announcing the truth and bringing all of mankind back to the Law immediately. Through our divinely mandated efforts, we shall now clear the path for the return of the Garden of Eden and the establishment of the eternal sinless world promised by Isaiah and the other Biblical prophets.




While zionists are supporting secular Jews, they are also supporting these ultra religious Jews who would put anyone who calls Jesus messiah to death for blasphemy.
 
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I'm a normal healthy hetero male..:)
Jesus said:-"The Creator made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' So they are no longer two, but one." (Matt 19:4)
No offense, but are you one of them blokes who don't like women?..;)
I'm a woman...

There is nothing normal or godly about a grown woman (or men) getting involved with a child, no matter how much the (immaturely minded and hormone driven) child thinks at the time that he or she "consents".

The fact that in your advanced (past the hormones of adolescence) age you haven't realized that this is troubling is very concerning.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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While zionists are supporting secular Jews, they are also supporting these ultra religious Jews who would put anyone who calls Jesus messiah to death for blasphemy.
And I think this gets to the point - the word “Zionist” is almost almost useless as it has such a variety of meanings!

To a secular Jew. Zionism might be simply a perspective of national pride and some kind of Israeli supremacy.

An Orthodox Zionist might overlook the negative verses referring to the time of “Jacob’s Trouble” and fast-forward to the promised future blessings, maybe even thinking that building a third temple will get them there.

An unwise Christian Zionist might end up thinking that if Israel is supported in “getting on” with their prophetic program, that God might begin His final prophetic program for the world, rather after the template of Field of Dreams, “when we build it, He will come”!

I don’t really hold to any of the views above. The way I see it is that Israel has been gathered back to the land like fish in a net, some good, some bad. Their existence as a restored nation clearly fulfils prophecy. There present state is predominately unbelief in Jesus and adherence to either a false rabbinic interpretation of scripture or secularism. There are also some that have a genuine faith in (and search for) God. The actions of these diverse groups reflect their beliefs.

During the coming Tribulation, Israel will become a microcosm of the world, where all will face a valley of decision. Many will choose evil and to turn away from God, some will see things a they are and flee, to later realise that Jesus was their true Messiah.

Edit: in case you might think I take the above position due to the kind of churches I have attended, I had quite the opposite growing up. NT Wright is a favourite of the CofE and Methodism adheres to Covenant Theology.

I just watched this because I was curious: I take a very different view as preterism and symbolism are (in my view) myopic.

 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I've known some christians who think they've got to relentlessly read every page of the bible day after day, and they've ended up half-nutty with tired minds which is exactly what satan wants, because he has tired minds for breakfast..:)
Personally I haven't picked up a bible for years because I know the gospels off by heart, and they're simple enough to understand-
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)
Might be worth blowing the dust off, @Flarepath

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Colossians 3:16

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
 

Flarepath

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When I lived in Leicester (England) 20-odd years ago there was a young christian street preacher who drew biggish crowds because he spoke good sense, but then I moved to another city and never saw him again.
However last year I decided to drop him an email and was shocked to find he was now talking utter rubbish in our emails.
He'd joined a Baptist church and become a minister there, so I can only assume intensive bible study had sent him bananas and he'd lost touch with Jesus.
Hence Paul's warning to others like him-
"I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
 
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And I think this gets to the point - the word “Zionist” is almost almost useless as it has such a variety of meanings!

To a secular Jew. Zionism might be simply a perspective of national pride and some kind of Israeli supremacy.

An Orthodox Zionist might overlook the negative verses referring to the time of “Jacob’s Trouble” and fast-forward to the promised future blessings, maybe even thinking that building a third temple will get them there.

An unwise Christian Zionist might end up thinking that if Israel is supported in “getting on” with their prophetic program, that God might begin His final prophetic program for the world, rather after the template of Field of Dreams, “when we build it, He will come”!
For the purposes of this forum, the term "zionist" refers to those who shut their eyes to the suffering and deaths of Palestinian children, all for the sake of "supporting israel".

But i can see the three examples given are distinct. The first is more political than anything, but interesting how those who reject God will still cite the Bible as to why they should have the land.

As for the 3rd option, it only makes sense if coupled with the pretrib rapture - why else would people be cheering on for the tribulation to begin (even IF we could force God's hand).



I don’t really hold to any of the views above. The way I see it is that Israel has been gathered back to the land like fish in a net, some good, some bad. Their existence as a restored nation clearly fulfils prophecy. There present state is predominately unbelief in Jesus and adherence to either a false rabbinic interpretation of scripture or secularism. There are also some that have a genuine faith in (and search for) God. The actions of these diverse groups reflect their beliefs

During the coming Tribulation, Israel will become a microcosm of the world, where all will face a valley of decision. Many will choose evil and to turn away from God, some will see things a they are and flee, to later realise that Jesus was their true Messiah
I suppose i see it as this regathering was an attempt by man (and driven by satan) to fulfill prophecy ahead of time. Possibly in order to establish the antichrist's kingdom. With the help of Christian zionists who believe that the ashkenazi jews are synonymous with either ancient Israel or the seed of Abraham.

Meanwhile, the actual descendants of Abraham were living on the land all along. Perhaps it was them who were prophesied to acdept Christ and believe? But now with these recent past events it makes the situation a whole lot more complicated.




Edit: in case you might think I take the above position due to the kind of churches I have attended, I had quite the opposite growing up. NT Wright is a favourite of the CofE and Methodism adheres to Covenant Theology.

I just watched this because I was curious: I take a very different view as preterism and symbolism are (in my view) myopic.

Yes, a symbolic ONLY view does seem myopic.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I suppose i see it as this regathering was an attempt by man (and driven by satan) to fulfill prophecy ahead of time. Possibly in order to establish the antichrist's kingdom. With the help of Christian zionists who believe that the ashkenazi jews are synonymous with either ancient Israel or the seed of Abraham.

Meanwhile, the actual descendants of Abraham were living on the land all along. Perhaps it was them who were prophesied to accept Christ and believe?
The above view is certainly one I have heard a number of times on this forum, and if I believed it was true I would take a very different stance. Certainly the Illuminati and the Masons have had a great interest in Israel over the years.

If you have ever played soccer you will be aware of how a team targets another team. Their best defender will “mark” their most dangerous attacker and follow their every move.

IMG_4543.jpeg

Was the 1948 return foretold in Scripture?
'A greater miracle than the Red Sea crossing'

There are few things clearer in Scripture than the promise of Israel's future restoration. In fact, more than half the prophetic scriptures relate to the return of the Jewish people to their ancient homeland.1 John Wesley, perhaps the most revered man of God in English history, wrote: "So many prophecies refer to this grand event that it is surprising any Christian can doubt of it."2
The prophet Jeremiah said it would be a greater miracle than the crossing of the Red Sea, when some two million Israelites fled Egypt on dry land before the waters closed in on the chasing army:
'The days are coming,' declares the Lord, 'when people will no longer say, "As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt," but they will say, "As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them." Then they will live in their own land.' (Jer 23:7f)
Quoting the Lord again later, Jeremiah writes: "See, I will bring them from the land of the north and gather them from the ends of the earth" (Jer 31:8). This promise is repeated often (indicating its great importance) by other prophets of old, including Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Amos, Micah and Zechariah.
And the Apostle Paul, in his letter to the Roman Christians written with the specific emphasis that God had not turned his back on the Jews because of their apparent rejection of Christ, adds that when the full number of Gentiles has come in, "all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:25f).
It needs to be understood that there are both physical and spiritual applications to many important areas of the Bible's teaching. For example, Jesus says that physical birth must be followed by spiritual birth if one is to 'see' or understand the kingdom of God (John 3:3-6). It's the same with Israel's restoration – first to the land, and then to the Lord. Notice that the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:8, quoted above, is followed shortly afterwards by God's promise of a new covenant with the house of Israel when he would write his law on their hearts, and they would all "know the Lord" (vv31-34).
Ezekiel follows the same pattern, first stating that God will bring his people back to their own land (Ezek 36:24) and then, just two verses later, adding that he will give them a new heart and put a new spirit in them!
And so, in these latter days, we have witnessed the miracle of Jews returning to their ancient homeland from every corner of the globe, in perfect fulfilment of the scriptures mentioned above. There are now over six million Jews – nearly half of world Jewry – living in Israel, with ever-increasing numbers of new arrivals, many of whom are fleeing anti-Semitism.
At the same time, we are witnessing the unprecedented worldwide growth of so-called Messianic fellowships (Jews who believe Jesus is their Messiah), along with a rapidly growing openness (even among ultra-Orthodox groups) to the prospect that Yeshua (Jesus in Hebrew) may, after all, be their Messiah. God has a great future for Israel!

Notes
1 Fisher, J, 2016. What is God doing in Israel?Monarch Books, pp87-91.
2 John Wesley's notes on Romans, quoted in A Nation Called by God, published by Love Never Fails.


A couple of things I have come across that you may want to consider before accepting the traditional VC narrative on Israel.

1: Is the KJV really a the version the Freemasons like the best?


I would contend that the KJV is especially clear and unhelpful to Freemasonry, so why lay claim to it when Manly P Hall was a supporter of the Critical Text RSV (Westcott & Hort)

2: Who designed the Great Pyramid and what “story” if any does it tell?


I offer you a rabbit hole but I won’t try to force you down it!!! God bless
 
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irrationalNinja

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For the purposes of this forum, the term "zionist" refers to those who shut their eyes to the suffering and deaths of Palestinian children, all for the sake of "supporting israel".
So you use “Zionist” as a pejorative because you think it is discrediting?

At least you’re honest about it.
 
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