@ToxicFemininitySucks
But i thought it was commonly known that Christians do not (for the most part) follow old testament Law. Seems like that debate would be one to have with a Jew or an Adventist, or any other denomination that believes we're still under the Law.
This is going to be a long response.
Many Christians do not understand what being under law means and evidently you're one of them and I say this sincerely.
Yes the Bible says that we are not under law, but that does not mean that we are free to break the law. The passage is found in
Romans 6:14-15:
"Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Paul goes on to explain what he means by not being under law but under grace. He asks,
"What then?" This simply means,
"How are we to understand this?" He then says,
"Shall we sin (break the law) because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" So being under grace does not exempt us from keeping the law.
What does Paul mean then by saying that Christians are not under the law? He gives that answer in
Romans 3:19 where he says,
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Paul equates being under the law with being
"guilty before God." In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it - not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it but, rather, are under the power of grace instead. This is why he states so emphatically,
"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."
When we have grace, we naturally obey the law. We've been pardoned and justified because we've accepted Christ's death for our sins on our behalf. We are now under grace and no longer under the law but that does not mean we are now free to break the law. Paul makes this point clear when he says,
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" (
Romans 3:31). Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ's saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and re-enforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian.
The truth of this is so simple, but the faulty reasoning of those who try to diminish obedience makes it necessary to press this point a bit further.
Have you ever been stopped by a police officer for exceeding the speed limit? It is an embarrassing experience, especially if you know you are guilty. But suppose you really were hurrying to meet a valid emergency, and you pour out your convincing explanation to the officer as he writes your ticket. Slowly he folds the ticket and tears it up, and then says,
"All right, I'm going to pardon you this time, but ..." Now what do you think he means by that word 'but'? Surely he means,
"... but I don't want to ever catch you speeding again." Does this pardon (grace) open the way for you to disobey the law? On the contrary, it adds compelling urgency to your decision not to disobey the law again.
Why, then, should any true Christian try to rationalize his way out of obeying the law of God?
"If you love Me," Jesus said,
"keep My commandments" (
John 14:15).
Link.
Some Christians do follow some Old Testament law and all should do the same (its not a denominational or Jewish issue).
Biblically there are
moral laws, ceremonial laws and the civil code or laws.
The
moral laws in the Bible are the Ten commandments given to Moses on Mount Sinai and were written with God's finger as found in
Exodus 20 and
Deuteronomy 5. They were the only laws in the Ark of the Covenant in the earthly sanctuary and temples (
2 Chronicles 5:10, Hebrews 9:4) and we read in Revelation that the Ark of the Covenant is in the heavenly Sanctuary/temple too (
Revelation 11:19, 15:5).
The Ten commandment law is eternal and will apply even after Jesus comes back the second time and is the base of God's government (
Revelation 22:14, Isaiah 66:22-23). The Law of God (as they are also known as) is of such importance that it required Jesus to die for us, as the
Only Means of Salvation. In other words, His law is absolutely
immutable, so not even God will change it, giving His only Son instead to die for us (
John 3:16).
As you know the ten commandment law was given in Old Testament times and we are told all throughout the Bible to obey it from Genesis to Revelation. It is this law that Jesus is referring when He said,
"If you love Me keep My commandments" (
John 14:15). And Its the law that John is referring to when he said,
"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness" (
1 John 3:4). The standard of judgment is
the law of God,
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil" (
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Jesus fulfilled the obligation of the law of the Ten Commandments by His perfect obedience to its precepts (that is why the Bible says He the only who has never sinned). The same law is still to be found in the New Testament and those who follow Christ must continue to live by this law.
As you also know
ceremonial laws were given to the Old Testament people (mainly the Israelites and Jews) to help them understand the plan of salvation and they symbolised Christ's earthly life and ministry. As you know Jesus fulfilled the obligations of the ceremonial law by becoming the Lamb slain for the sins of the world once and for all. Through His death, ceremonial law became null and void because it foreshadowed the cross, but the law of Ten Commandments did not change, nor was it done away with.
We discussed the
civil code or law before. This is what I posted in my response to you:
"These were based on the moral law. They defined a citizen’s relationship to civil authorities and to fellow citizens. These were laws that were given specifically to Old Testament Israel as a nation under a theocracy. They applied to daily living in Israel. For example there was one where if a man and a woman were caught committing adultery they were to be stoned to death. While some of the laws are still relevant from that time, for example its still breaking the law to commit adultery, the punishment of stoning people to death is not applicable today. That kind of judicial system no longer exists because we do not live in a theocracy."
Most Christians will agree that those were given only for that context and that they are easy to distinguish even from ceremonial laws. Jesus even mentioned that some of them were given to Israel
"because of the hardness of your hearts" (
Matthew 19:8).
You remember we discussed health and dietary laws that come all the way from Genesis where Noah was told that only two of the unclean animals would enter the ark but seven of the clean animal would enter the ark. God gives more rules in the the Old Testament. Those rules still apply because health is still very much important. Even in the New Testament it is not okay to eat meats and foods that God told us not to. As I mentioned, God is concerned about our overall health physically, mentally, spiritually etc.
As Christians we've got to distinguish which Old Testament laws matter and which don't with the help of the Holy spirit but its clear as day light that we still do and always will follow some Old Testament laws for eternity.
Now, i know people will get upset by this, but i believe the Bible - ALL of it. I don't think as Christians we are supposed to be apologizing for it, or as this guy said in the debate "maybe that didn't really happen". It's not our place to correct the Bible.
I absolutely believe that God ordered the Israelites in to kill all the amalekites, even the children and animals. I believe that God knows more than us humans and He had His reasons for what he ordered.
BUT that doesn't mean we Christians are commanded to commit genocide today (although the catholic church took it upon them themselves to kill their opposition many times).
In short, i'm not saying "God wouldn't do that!" or anything along those lines.
I'm saying, yes God told that particular group of people in that particular instance/time to do that.
And for what it's worth, the Israelites failed at their orders, and there's multiple instances of amalekites alive and well after the attack was ordered, as well as other examples of the Israelites failing at driving the child-sacrificing idolaters out if their lands.
Was it becauze of this failure to follow God's command that led to the proliferation of idolatry and eventual division of the kingdom and exile? Could be. God has his reasons...
I have a thread here titled
"Why did God kill?" It explains all of this in more detail. For example the difference between killing and murder. And why God has a right to kill which is different to humans taking their own initiative and murdering people simply because they do have the same faith or race for example. The only kind of killing we are allowed to do in the Bible is in self defence.
This is the truth of the Bible and I hope you understand that I'm just trying to show you God's truth not to undermine you in any way.
