Comparison of JAHtruth's "The way home or face the Fire" to the bible (part 2)

[The Sojourner]

People die, animals die. That doesn't mean we are therefore animals.
We die because of the sins of Adam and Eve.

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The bible says man. it does not say man-animal anywhere. AJH made that up.

You asked where in the Bible does it call man an animal, I showed you where.
Humans are mammals; they the same bodily functions as the others.

 

[Lyfe]

You are dodging the point here.

Read Deuteronomy 28. Read Leviticus 26.

Leviticus 26:1-13 are blessings, Leviticus 26:14-45 are curses.
Deuteronomy 28:1-14 are blessings, Deuteronomy 28:15-68 are curses.

Have I misrepresented the text? are the blessings really curses too?

There are both blessings and curses. Not just curses.
It's a matter of exegesis and you simply are misrepresenting the text or don't know the text at all.

Spoiler: Muslims

I shouldn't have to say but the Muslim statement is ridiculous when we do not accept the Bible at all as an authority, whether that be the Torah in it's extant state or the New Testament. These are only writings of men which contain fragments of what God revealed but the texts themselves are as fallible as any other book.

Jews reject Jesus wholesale, so the Jewish point is also moot. If a Jew accepts Jesus then he becomes a Christian.

But as I said you are dodging the point.

The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled by just being in Christ and walking in the spirit (Romans 8:1-9). In Christ there is every spiritual blessing under heaven (Ephesians 1:3). The Christian is blessed by just being a part of Abraham's seed(Galatians 3:14-29).

...apart from him there is only the curse of being a guilty sinner under God's law. In the context of the NT you can't be obedient to God without first accepting Christ.

That is the very first act of obedience that God calls a person to. To repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. If a person hasn't done this they are completely disobedient to the Torah, because Christ is the fulfillment of The Torah. If your under the law you are under a curse.

Galatians 3:7-14
English Standard Version

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[a] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[b] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[c] through faith.

 

[JoChris]

You asked where in the Bible does it call man an animal, I showed you where.
Humans are mammals; they the same bodily functions as the others.

Whole chapter. Ecclesiastes chapter 3.
The whole book is pessimistic philosophy, a world where Solomon shows the conclusions that a person will reach if they think deeply enough about the meaning of their life WITHOUT God.

Proverbs 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

You ignored the following verse too: that is a cult-tactic.
3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

If we were an animal, our spirit would not go downwards.

Enough said.

 

[lightseeker]

Whole chapter. Ecclesiastes chapter 3.
The whole book is pessimistic philosophy, a world where Solomon shows the conclusions that a person will reach if they think deeply enough about the meaning of their life WITHOUT God.

Proverbs 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

You ignored the following verse too: that is a cult-tactic.
3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

If we were an animal, our spirit would not go downwards.

Enough said.

AJH teaches that man was walking around on earth without a soul as an animal, and it was only when their god on Venus sent luciferic spirits into those animals that they became human. Of course, contradicting the bible in dozens of ways but that’s what was best formulated to control those under his spell I imagine

 

[JoChris]

This verse has so many heresies, proving AJH has a totally non-Christian worldview.

I will let Muslims expand on how important Anthony John Hill's contradiction of the following Quran verse is.

Quran 1:57 and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so.1 Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him.


3:66 This was the demonstration given by Christ, on the cross, when he controlled the animal that he was temporarily using,

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ [Jesus].
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Is Jesus God in the flesh - Got Questions
Was Jesus both fully God and fully man - Bible study tools

which was made by Mary’s body, with God’s help, and then used it, for the benefit of everyone on Earth, by taking upon himself the sins of the whole world.

The underlined section sounded promising..... then as usual AJH wrecked it.

He controlled it and used it, to the extent, that he “VOLUNTARILY” suffered the agony of the cross, giving up his human-life, to show people the ULTIMATE example - destroying the self, with PERFECT CONTROL, voluntarily, for the benefit of others.

That contradicts the core doctrine of substitutionary atonement. Please read whole link!!!

According to the Scriptures, sin must be paid for.
1 When Jesus Christ died, he suffered as a substitute in the place of and on behalf of fallen humanity. Christ's death made it possible for men and women to be declared righteous, based on their faith in Him.....

First, sin alienates us from God.3 Those who are controlled by sin cannot please God.4 Jesus Christ's death made peace with God possible.5 Christ came, not just to provide us with a godly example, but to die on our behalf and to bear the cost for sin.6

Second, God is holy.7 God's holy character requires that sin be punished.8 Sin makes us the objects of God's wrath until the penalty of sin is paid.9 By laying down His own life, Jesus paid the price on our behalf, satisfying God's demand.10 This payment was made, not to Satan, but God.11

Third, the presence of sin renders us helpless.12 We cannot save ourselves.13 We do not have the will or the ability to offer anything acceptable to God on our own behalf.14 We not only suffer from the guilt and penalty of Adam's original sin, but also from the effects of our own sinful nature and actions.15 ......

---
The PERFECT example of UNSELFISHNESS. YOU must learn that degree of CONTROL.
3:67 Two thousand years and NO-ONE understands what the demonstration of the cross REALLY means. The cross is not to be worn around your neck. It is to be worn inside. Hold out your arms, horizontally, look in a mirror, and you will see your cross. Your cross is your selfishness, that you must overcome and destroy. The cross of “SELF-sacrifice”, i.e. voluntary destruction of your own SELFISHNESS, by the giving-up, of your own human, material interests, for the benefit of everyone else’s spiritual well-being, thereby setting a good example, for others to follow, by your DEEDS NOT WORDS.

3:68 “I am The Way, follow me,” which did not mean getting up off your backside, and following him down the street. It means that Jesus is the way, that you all have to be, before you can follow him back to heaven (home).

Then there is no hope for AJH, if he was at all honest with himself.

 

[The Sojourner]

Whole chapter. Ecclesiastes chapter 3.
The whole book is pessimistic philosophy, a world where Solomon shows the conclusions that a person will reach if they think deeply enough about the meaning of their life WITHOUT God.

Proverbs 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

You ignored the following verse too: that is a cult-tactic.
3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

If we were an animal, our spirit would not go downwards.

Enough said.

Human beings are animal body + spirit being/soul.
That's what makes human beings different.

Ecclesiastes
3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a human hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.

Humans (animal bodies) perish the same way as other animals do, it is the soul that does not, that's why Jesus said the flesh profiteth nothing (is worthless), and that it is the spirit/soul that is important.

Some people never seem to realise it, that they are not the meat/body itself.

It is also found in the Gospel according to Thomas.

Thomas
6:1 Jesus said: If the flesh has come into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel; but if the spirit has come into existence because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels (impossible). But I marvel at how this great wealth (the spirit-Being) has made its home in this poverty (the body).

Humans are the highest animal, but the human body is still biologically an animal.

 

[JoChris]

I am rushing through these sections a bit now, because 1. the heresies deserve to be examined in different threads 2. JAHtruthers want to get to the sections that probably converted them (somehow).

3:69 To do that, you must ask yourself, 24 hours a day, in every situation, what would Jesus do; say; or think, in this situation? Then, before doing; saying or thinking anything, you must wait and listen for, and to, the good voice, then go forwards, guided and protected, to victory.

That appears an ok rule-of-thumb, but where is the consulting with the bible to double check that your conclusions are correct?

We are human.
At best we are easily confused and forget things.
We can talk to ourselves, convince ourself we are hearing from God the excuses for sin in our situation.
We could be fooled by Satan pretending to be an angel of Light.

-----
3:70 Whilst in incredible agony, Jesus said, “Forgive them (you, all of you), because they do not know what they are doing.” The people did not know what they were doing, because they were “out of control”, and in Satan’s control, and that is the very reason why Jesus came, to show “The Way (home)”, in the first-place. The people were “out of control”, because they could not control the animals, that they were locked inside of and using, and had been deceived by Satan, who used their religious arrogance against them.

But AJH - according to you we are human-animals!!!!
How do you expect us do better than the (actual) animals, when you do not even have the Holy Spirit to give you the necessary spiritual power to overcome sin that we are prone to in this life?

 

[JoChris]

Human beings are animal body + spirit being/soul.
That's what makes human beings different.

Ecclesiastes
3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a human hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.

Humans (animal bodies) perish the same way as other animals do, it is the soul that does not, that's why Jesus said the flesh profiteth nothing (is worthless), and that it is the spirit/soul that is important.

Some people never seem to realise it, that they are not the meat/body itself.

It is also found in the Gospel according to Thomas.

Thomas
6:1 Jesus said: If the flesh has come into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel; but if the spirit has come into existence because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels (impossible). But I marvel at how this great wealth (the spirit-Being) has made its home in this poverty (the body).

Again, the Gospel of Thomas is not in the bible.

Why you want to believe you are merely an animal is beyond me. Suggesting that humans have an animal nature is a Darwinian concept.

P.S. I have had enough for today.

 

[The Sojourner]

We are not human-animals.
We are spirit-beings (souls), locked inside of the human-animals.
That's what it says, not that we are human-animals.
We are not the humans, we are the souls inside of the humans.

That's why people ask, who will save your soul?
(They don't ask, who will save your body?)

We are souls, not bodies.

 

[Infinityloop]

Ecclesiastes
3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might show them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a human hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Nowhere in the Old Testament, New Testament nor the Qur'an does it place humans in the same category as animals. They are always placed in distinction to each other.
Humans are created by the infusing of dirt/clay and Spirit by God directly.

It is evolutionism which categorizes humans and animals as different forms of the same thing.

Humans and animals are both "creatures" and both possess bodies but a body alone doesn't make us animals.

Interestingly enough this is an area you gnostics and hedonists both agree on.

 

[The Sojourner]

Again, the Gospel of Thomas is not in the bible.

Why you want to believe you are merely an animal is beyond me. Suggesting that humans have an animal nature is a Darwinian concept.

P.S. I have had enough for today.

I don't believe that I'm an animal.
That's not at all what I was saying!
I am a soul (spirit-being), not a human animal.
The human body (as wonderful as it is) is not me.

 

[The Sojourner]

Nowhere in the Old Testament, New Testament nor the Qur'an does it place humans in the same category as animals. They are always placed in distinction to each other.
Humans are created by the infusing of dirt/clay and Spirit by God directly.

It is evolutionism which categorizes humans and animals as different forms of the same thing.

Humans and animals are both "creatures" and both possess bodies but a body alone doesn't make us animals.

Interestingly enough this is an area you gnostics and hedonists both agree on.

It's the Spirit part, that makes humans different and distinct.
We are not animals, we are Spirit/soul beings locked-in/incarnated inside of human-animal bodies.

Humans are animals - the highest animal, but it's still animal.

You are not your body.
The body is an animal.
You are a Soul (spirit-Being).

 

[The Sojourner]

P.S. I have had enough for today.

Ok. Sleep on it.

P.S. if you are your body, then what about when you get your hair cut? Is that part of "you" that has been cut off? Same with nails.

If someone has lost a limb, are they less "them" because they have lost a limb?

We are NOT human!

Hope everyone rests well when it gets time.

 

[Infinityloop]

This verse has so many heresies, proving AJH has a totally non-Christian worldview.

I will let Muslims expand on how important Anthony John Hill's contradiction of the following Quran verse is.

Quran 1:57 and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so.1 Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him.


3:66 This was the demonstration given by Christ, on the cross, when he controlled the animal that he was temporarily using,

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ [Jesus].
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Is Jesus God in the flesh - Got Questions
Was Jesus both fully God and fully man - Bible study tools

which was made by Mary’s body, with God’s help, and then used it, for the benefit of everyone on Earth, by taking upon himself the sins of the whole world.

The underlined section sounded promising..... then as usual AJH wrecked it.

He controlled it and used it, to the extent, that he “VOLUNTARILY” suffered the agony of the cross, giving up his human-life, to show people the ULTIMATE example - destroying the self, with PERFECT CONTROL, voluntarily, for the benefit of others.

That contradicts the core doctrine of substitutionary atonement. Please read whole link!!!

According to the Scriptures, sin must be paid for.
1 When Jesus Christ died, he suffered as a substitute in the place of and on behalf of fallen humanity. Christ's death made it possible for men and women to be declared righteous, based on their faith in Him.....

First, sin alienates us from God.3 Those who are controlled by sin cannot please God.4 Jesus Christ's death made peace with God possible.5 Christ came, not just to provide us with a godly example, but to die on our behalf and to bear the cost for sin.6

Second, God is holy.7 God's holy character requires that sin be punished.8 Sin makes us the objects of God's wrath until the penalty of sin is paid.9 By laying down His own life, Jesus paid the price on our behalf, satisfying God's demand.10 This payment was made, not to Satan, but God.11

Third, the presence of sin renders us helpless.12 We cannot save ourselves.13 We do not have the will or the ability to offer anything acceptable to God on our own behalf.14 We not only suffer from the guilt and penalty of Adam's original sin, but also from the effects of our own sinful nature and actions.15 ......

---
The PERFECT example of UNSELFISHNESS. YOU must learn that degree of CONTROL.
3:67 Two thousand years and NO-ONE understands what the demonstration of the cross REALLY means. The cross is not to be worn around your neck. It is to be worn inside. Hold out your arms, horizontally, look in a mirror, and you will see your cross. Your cross is your selfishness, that you must overcome and destroy. The cross of “SELF-sacrifice”, i.e. voluntary destruction of your own SELFISHNESS, by the giving-up, of your own human, material interests, for the benefit of everyone else’s spiritual well-being, thereby setting a good example, for others to follow, by your DEEDS NOT WORDS.

3:68 “I am The Way, follow me,” which did not mean getting up off your backside, and following him down the street. It means that Jesus is the way, that you all have to be, before you can follow him back to heaven (home).

Then there is no hope for AJH, if he was at all honest with himself.

View attachment 86881

You know how I was saying in pt 1 of this thread about them being indiscernible from a parody?

Well this is another instance.

They've taken on the position of Doeticism which is falsely interpreted onto the Qur'an by some polemicists against Islam (usually Christians) except that these Jahtruthers have emphasized the NT salvific narrative with it.

Docetism was (or is) the view that Jesus is that divine that he didn't physically possess a body but that he only seemed to have a body, the mainstream Christian response was that Jesus prossesses two natures, one fully divine and one fully man.
The Christian position also emphasized that the human nature both died and was resurrected (meaning that his human body also ascended to heaven, such as seen in Acts 1).

The Jahtruthers are basically repeating the Docetic view,

The Qur'an on the other hand only explicitly states that the Jews falsely claimed to kill Jesus, as well as slandering Mary. The passage is vague and people have given different theories about it before but that is objectively what the verse states, no Docetism. And in the case of the commonly held view that it is denying a crucifixion as a whole (along with substitution etc), that would still not be Docetism because it would be only a statement on the nature of the crucifixion while disagreeing on all points on the divinity and actuality of Jesus' person.
That verse (while notable) is just a piece of a passage (Surah 4:153-161) and not a verse to be solely taken in isolation.

 

[Infinityloop]

It's the Spirit part, that makes humans different and distinct.
We are not animals, we are Spirit/soul beings locked-in/incarnated inside of human-animal bodies.

Humans are animals - the highest animal, but it's still animal.

You are not your body.
The body is an animal.
You are a Soul (spirit-Being).

It's suspicious you leave out the following verse:

Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the animal goes down to the earth?

I don't for a second believe that was accidental.

 

[Infinityloop]

You are not your body.

Btw the belief in this:

Came out of Platonism and Dharmic philosophy. But AJH probably got it through whatever Newage magazines he was reading in the 70s.


Mind+body dualism is not an ancient Biblical or Quranic teaching. We contain components but we aren't one of those components in isolation. You cannot have a car without wheels, it doesn't do anything, it ceases to function.

This is not real:

You won't die and wake up in some abstract dream world where there is no sense of corporeality or bodily existence. It is that the afterlife has different, more sacred and close-to-God quality compared to this life fraught with sin, pain and suffering.

 

[Infinityloop]

Related:

The Ego and the Self | Vedanta Society of Southern California

vedanta.org

The Platonic Soul | Philosophy

philosophy.tamucc.edu

Life, Death & Gnosis: The Gnostics on the Afterlife

The possibilities for life after death come down to a mere three: 1. There is no life after death. Death is the total extinction of consciousness. 2. Life after death continues on earth (through…

www.newdawnmagazine.com

The New Testament Doesn’t Say What Most People Think It Does About Heaven

For most modern Christians, the idea of “going to heaven” is a key belief. But early Christians had very different ideas on the subject

time.com

 

[Infinityloop]

To quote Paul for one of the views conveyed in the NT:

2 Corinthian 5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10 For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.


The Apocalypse of St John in chapter 21 famously states:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

 

[Infinityloop]

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

2 Peter 3
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! 13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[A Freeman]

John 3:3-13
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.