Who do Muslims really worship?

[Mohammed_123]

and the GOD of this world is Mammon.

tell me more....

 

[Maldarker]

In Aramaic the word ‘mamona’ had many subtle spiritual connotations, but its root or core was ‘worldly riches’ or ‘material wealth regarded as having an evil influence.’ Though some scholars point out that the equivalent Hebrew term, ‘matmon’ is more spiritually neutral, meaning ‘treasure’, and that therefore figuratively Mammon can be equated simply with ‘money’, it is clear that Christ is using the term not in this neutral way, but in the Aramaic way which implies a spiritual criticism. Given St Paul’s claim that the “love of money is the root of all evil”, so Mammon is not simply money, but the ‘love of money.’ But even that does not do justice to its full meaning. I love pizza, but hopefully I would not pursue the acquisition of pizza as my whole life’s purpose. But Mammon carries precisely this connotation in Aramaic: Mammon is the love of money, material wealth, worldly riches, as the chief significance and overriding aim of living. Nothing is weightier with importance. Nothing is more captivating with attraction. Nothing is more worthy of relentless effort. This is what life is about, this is the end-all and be-all of existing in the world. The lover of money who obtains his desire has cracked it; he is the world’s success story and deserves to be its prince.

Hence, Mammon is not simply the love of money, it is in actuality the worship of money as a ‘god.’ This god replaces any and all other gods. This is the god at whose altar everyone bows down, and offers fidelity, obeisance, service. This god’s temples are in the City of London, and on Wall Street in New York. China is this god’s latest convert; they are raising his temple in Shanghai.

The love of money that in fact is really a worship of money gives a special meaning to the other translation of Mammon as ‘greed’ or ‘avarice.’ A child can be greedy for a second chocolate bar after having eaten one, but Mammon carries a far heavier connotation than our tendency toward material excess, or confusing desire and want with genuine need. The greed or avarice stirred up in Mammon is far more powerful: it is the ‘possessiveness’, the ‘clinging to’, the need to ‘have and hold onto’, that the love of money as a god engenders as its main drive. In the Eastern Christian Desert Tradition, it is this kind of greediness or avariciousness which is the first sin in the Fall of mankind, not pride [pride is the last, and crowning, sin in a sequence of 8 sinful steps].


Hence JESUS stating you can't serve GOD & Mammon For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. . . . No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money [mammon]” (Matthew 6:19–24).

The city of Babylon (Revelation 18), with all its avarice and greed, is a description of a world given over to the spirit of Mammon. Some scholars cite Mammon as the name of a Syrian and Chaldean god, similar to the Greek god of wealth, Plutus.

 

[Behumble]

Shooooot... I think a bunch of the Arabs can certainly read Quran... but I dont think they comprehend much of what they do lol
But point taken... they are small in number, yet are allowed to represent a disproportionate amount of power and influence within the Muslim world.

Sounds familiar...
A bunch of elites who make up 1% of the world's population yet have more wealth, power and control over all of them. Feed them lies and propaganda through media (hadith, Islamic publications), convincing the majority what is the norm. Yet you have the few who don't buy their lies and are vilified.

 

[A Freeman]

Sounds familiar...
A bunch of elites who make up 1% of the world's population yet have more wealth, power and control over all of them. Feed them lies and propaganda through media (hadith, Islamic publications), convincing the majority what is the norm. Yet you have the few who don't buy their lies and are vilified.

Why don't more "Muslims" question the hadith and sirah please? These fabricated, self-contradictory documents can't hold up to even basic historical scrutiny, and were admittedly constructed in Baghdad over two hundred years after Muhammad's alleged passing, by people that had never met Muhammad, nor personally knew any of his companions.

The isnad was then fabricated years after the hadith and sirah, to try to "authenticate" these made-up stories. Does anyone question the shameless promotion of this propaganda? Even IF the isnad was accepted as valid -- which it most certainly is not -- it is still hearsay, usually several times removed over several generations of playing the "telephone game" (Chinese whispers). And that's presuming the very best about that process (i.e. that the entire isnad hasn't been contrived just like the hadith and sirah were before it, which is actually the case).

How can it not be considered shirk to make a partner of these fabricated documents with God's Word in the Koran?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Why don't more "Muslims" question the hadith and sirah please? These fabricated, self-contradictory documents can't hold up to even basic historical scrutiny, and were admittedly constructed in Baghdad over two hundred years after Muhammad's alleged passing, by people that had never met Muhammad, nor personally knew any of his companions.

The isnad was then fabricated years after the hadith and sirah, to try to "authenticate" these made-up stories. Does anyone question the shameless promotion of this propaganda? Even IF the isnad was accepted as valid -- which it most certainly is not -- it is still hearsay, usually several times removed over several generations of playing the "telephone game" (Chinese whispers). And that's presuming the very best about that process (i.e. that the entire isnad hasn't been contrived just like the hadith and sirah were before it, which is actually the case).

How can it not be considered shirk to make a partner of these fabricated documents with God's Word in the Koran?

Ggetting to the heart of the matter, gracias. We can see the open reactions of the kind of Muslims we are discussing in the thread concerning Aisha's age at marriage & etc. when these heretical, blasphemous and superstitious innovations to Islam are challenged.

 

[A Freeman]

Ggetting to the heart of the matter, gracias. We can see the open reactions of the kind of Muslims we are discussing in the thread concerning Aisha's age at marriage & etc. when these heretical, blasphemous and superstitious innovations to Islam are challenged.

You're welcome. As was shared in that thread, Aisha is among the made-up characters from these same 100% fabricated documents that have provided fuel for endless debates.

As the Koran itself states, the goal of everyone should be Father (Allah, "I AM"), The Source of All Truth.

A few question, if you please @TempestOfTempo on the related subject of Ramadan:

1) Where in the Koran (Quran) does it specify a lunar calendar?

2) Where in the Koran does it specify how Ramadan is to be performed?

3) Where in the Koran does it specify the make-up date for those who might miss it due to illness or journey?

 

[Road Dog7]

They do recognize JESUS
ALL IN ALL......
Alla is " everything "
Once told by a Muslim / student of mine
When. I was a trainer/ TI , in the Military
He was telling me, his is sky- land- water- all things
Very matter of fact, in his dialog.
No wavering to his ideology.
Devoted
Sincere
CERTAIN of his convictions.
I spoke as a STOIC,
And was well received
Our dialog was very enlightening.
He was from Saudi. Arabia
Pleasant individual
Did not condon violence.
Spoke about western religion,
Only to say....there is so much more to learn.
Found western culture fascinating.
Was married to a western.
Hope to move to & work in the USA.
HE WAS NOT MILITARY.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Peace out.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

You're welcome. As was shared in that thread, Aisha is among the made-up characters from these same 100% fabricated documents that have provided fuel for endless debates.

As the Koran itself states, the goal of everyone should be Father (Allah, "I AM"), The Source of All Truth.

A few question, if you please @TempestOfTempo on the related subject of Ramadan:

1) Where in the Koran (Quran) does it specify a lunar calendar?

2) Where in the Koran does it specify how Ramadan is to be performed?

3) Where in the Koran does it specify the make-up date for those who might miss it due to illness or journey?

Give me a bit of time to research and prepare some worthy answers...

 

[A Freeman]

Give me a bit of time to research and prepare some worthy answers...

Please take as much time as you wish. The reason for bringing the questions up is to illustrate how heavily all five of the "pillars" depend upon the hadith and/or the sirah for definition, even though the Koran specifically states that no such extra-curricular writings are required to complete true religion.

It will hopefully be an interesting conversation.

 

[Behumble]

You're welcome. As was shared in that thread, Aisha is among the made-up characters from these same 100% fabricated documents that have provided fuel for endless debates.

As the Koran itself states, the goal of everyone should be Father (Allah, "I AM"), The Source of All Truth.

A few question, if you please @TempestOfTempo on the related subject of Ramadan:

1) Where in the Koran (Quran) does it specify a lunar calendar?

2) Where in the Koran does it specify how Ramadan is to be performed?

3) Where in the Koran does it specify the make-up date for those who might miss it due to illness or journey?

Salam, sorry to interject but here are my findings:

1) Where in the Koran (Quran) does it specify a lunar calendar?

They ask you ˹O Prophet˺ about the phases of the moon. Say, “They are a means for people to determine time and pilgrimage.” Righteousness is not in entering your houses from the back doors. Rather, righteousness is to be mindful ˹of Allah˺. So enter your homes through their ˹proper˺ doors, and be mindful of Allah so you may be successful.
2:189


He is the One Who made the sun a radiant source and the moon a reflected light, with precisely ordained phases, so that you may know the number of years and calculation ˹of time˺. Allah did not create all this except for a purpose. He makes the signs clear for people of knowledge.
10:5


Indeed, the number of months ordained by Allah is twelve—in Allah’s Record since the day He created the heavens and the earth—of which four are sacred. That is the Right Way. So do not wrong one another during these months. And together fight the polytheists as they fight against you together. And know that Allah is with those mindful ˹of Him˺.
9:36

Instinctively you would use the sun to determine the day (sundails and casting shadows to show the hour), the moon to determine the month and the seasons for the year. It was the only way to measure time.



2) Where in the Koran does it specify how Ramadan is to be performed?
3) Where in the Koran does it specify the make-up date for those who might miss it due to illness or journey?


˹Fast a˺ prescribed number of days. But whoever of you is ill or on a journey, then ˹let them fast˺ an equal number of days ˹after Ramaḍân˺. For those who can only fast with extreme difficulty, compensation can be made by feeding a needy person ˹for every day not fasted˺. But whoever volunteers to give more, it is better for them. And to fast is better for you, if only you knew.
2:184

Ramaḍân is the month in which the Quran was revealed as a guide for humanity with clear proofs of guidance and the standard ˹to distinguish between right and wrong˺. So whoever is present this month, let them fast. But whoever is ill or on a journey, then ˹let them fast˺ an equal number of days ˹after Ramaḍân˺. Allah intends ease for you, not hardship, so that you may complete the prescribed period and proclaim the greatness of Allah for guiding you, and perhaps you will be grateful.
2:185

It has been made permissible for you to be intimate with your wives during the nights preceding the fast. Your spouses are a garment for you as you are for them. Allah knows that you were deceiving yourselves. So He has accepted your repentance and pardoned you. So now you may be intimate with them and seek what Allah has prescribed for you. ˹You may˺ eat and drink until you see the light of dawn breaking the darkness of night, then complete the fast until nightfall. Do not be intimate with your spouses while you are meditating in the mosques. These are the limits set by Allah, so do not exceed them. This is how Allah makes His revelations clear to people, so they may become mindful ˹of Him˺.
2:187


I found these verses which tells us how to fast and how to make up for lost days. There's also an option to feed a needy person if you can't make those days up.

 

[Behumble]

Why don't more "Muslims" question the hadith and sirah please? These fabricated, self-contradictory documents can't hold up to even basic historical scrutiny, and were admittedly constructed in Baghdad over two hundred years after Muhammad's alleged passing, by people that had never met Muhammad, nor personally knew any of his companions.

The isnad was then fabricated years after the hadith and sirah, to try to "authenticate" these made-up stories. Does anyone question the shameless promotion of this propaganda? Even IF the isnad was accepted as valid -- which it most certainly is not -- it is still hearsay, usually several times removed over several generations of playing the "telephone game" (Chinese whispers). And that's presuming the very best about that process (i.e. that the entire isnad hasn't been contrived just like the hadith and sirah were before it, which is actually the case).

How can it not be considered shirk to make a partner of these fabricated documents with God's Word in the Koran?

I don't think Chinese whispers can even be done with 100% success rate in this modern time let alone follow the isnad.

What baffles me is how much they say ordinary folk aren't capable of understanding the Qur'an without a P'hd level in Arabic yet most aren't even reading it or trying to comprehend as much as they can. Instead they turn to prioritize hadith because we've been told only Islamic scholars have the knowledge to understand the fiqh of Qur'an.

Which I find every offensive because the Qur'an was revealed for mankind, sheikh or not.

And Allah brought you out of the wombs of your mothers while you knew nothing, and gave you hearing, sight, and intellect so perhaps you would be thankful.
16:78

These are the parables We set forth for humanity, but none will understand them except the people of knowledge.
29:43


Hadith Vs Qur'an

Here you are! You disputed about what you have ˹little˺ knowledge of, but why do you now argue about what you have no knowledge of? Allah knows and you do not know.
3:66

The disbelievers say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are no messenger.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Allah is sufficient as a Witness between me and you, as is whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
13:43

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Believe in this ˹Quran˺, or do not. Indeed, when it is recited to those who were gifted with knowledge before it ˹was revealed˺, they fall upon their faces in prostration,
17:107

As for those who strive to discredit Our revelations, it is they who will suffer the ˹worst˺ torment of agonizing pain.
34:5

Those gifted with knowledge ˹clearly˺ see that what has been revealed to you from your Lord ˹O Prophet˺ is the truth, and that it guides to the Path of the Almighty, the Praiseworthy.
34:6

˹This is˺ also so that those gifted with knowledge would know that this ˹revelation˺ is the truth from your Lord, so they have faith in it, and so their hearts would submit humbly to it. And Allah surely guides the believers to the Straight Path.
22:54

But this ˹Quran˺ is ˹a set of˺ clear revelations ˹preserved˺ in the hearts of those gifted with knowledge. And none denies Our revelations except the ˹stubborn˺ wrongdoers.
29:49

He is the One Who has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book, of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive. Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking ˹to spread˺ doubt through their ˹false˺ interpretations—but none grasps their ˹full˺ meaning except Allah. As for those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this ˹Quran˺—it is all from our Lord.” But none will be mindful ˹of this˺ except people of reason.
3:7

Allah ˹Himself˺ is a Witness that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—and so are the angels and people of knowledge. He is the Maintainer of justice. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—the Almighty, All-Wise.
3:18

Do not follow what you have no ˹sure˺ knowledge of. Indeed, all will be called to account for ˹their˺ hearing, sight, and intellect.
17:36


People using hadith to back up their arguments when it can't be proven.

 

[Maldarker]

I don't think Chinese whispers can even be done with 100% success rate in this modern time let alone follow the isnad.

What baffles me is how much they say ordinary folk aren't capable of understanding the Qur'an without a P'hd level in Arabic yet most aren't even reading it or trying to comprehend as much as they can. Instead they turn to prioritize hadith because we've been told only Islamic scholars have the knowledge to understand the fiqh of Qur'an.

Which I find every offensive because the Qur'an was revealed for mankind, sheikh or not.

And Allah brought you out of the wombs of your mothers while you knew nothing, and gave you hearing, sight, and intellect so perhaps you would be thankful.
16:78

These are the parables We set forth for humanity, but none will understand them except the people of knowledge.
29:43


Hadith Vs Qur'an

Here you are! You disputed about what you have ˹little˺ knowledge of, but why do you now argue about what you have no knowledge of? Allah knows and you do not know.
3:66

The disbelievers say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are no messenger.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Allah is sufficient as a Witness between me and you, as is whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
13:43

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Believe in this ˹Quran˺, or do not. Indeed, when it is recited to those who were gifted with knowledge before it ˹was revealed˺, they fall upon their faces in prostration,
17:107

As for those who strive to discredit Our revelations, it is they who will suffer the ˹worst˺ torment of agonizing pain.
34:5

Those gifted with knowledge ˹clearly˺ see that what has been revealed to you from your Lord ˹O Prophet˺ is the truth, and that it guides to the Path of the Almighty, the Praiseworthy.
34:6

˹This is˺ also so that those gifted with knowledge would know that this ˹revelation˺ is the truth from your Lord, so they have faith in it, and so their hearts would submit humbly to it. And Allah surely guides the believers to the Straight Path.
22:54

But this ˹Quran˺ is ˹a set of˺ clear revelations ˹preserved˺ in the hearts of those gifted with knowledge. And none denies Our revelations except the ˹stubborn˺ wrongdoers.
29:49

He is the One Who has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book, of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive. Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking ˹to spread˺ doubt through their ˹false˺ interpretations—but none grasps their ˹full˺ meaning except Allah. As for those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this ˹Quran˺—it is all from our Lord.” But none will be mindful ˹of this˺ except people of reason.
3:7

Allah ˹Himself˺ is a Witness that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—and so are the angels and people of knowledge. He is the Maintainer of justice. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—the Almighty, All-Wise.
3:18

Do not follow what you have no ˹sure˺ knowledge of. Indeed, all will be called to account for ˹their˺ hearing, sight, and intellect.
17:36


People using hadith to back up their arguments when it can't be proven.

Seems that the same issues are what catholics went are going through its the clergy thats knows your to stupid to read and understand....wonder whos whispering in their ears not?

 

[A Freeman]

Salam, sorry to interject but here are my findings:

Thank-you for your reply. Peace be upon you too.

1) Where in the Koran (Quran) does it specify a lunar calendar?

They ask you ˹O Prophet˺ about the phases of the moon. Say, “They are a means for people to determine time and pilgrimage.” Righteousness is not in entering your houses from the back doors. Rather, righteousness is to be mindful ˹of Allah˺. So enter your homes through their ˹proper˺ doors, and be mindful of Allah so you may be successful.
2:189

Would you consider this to be a command to keep a lunar calendar though? A lunar calendar loses 11-12 days every year, which means every three years it's behind an entire month, and every 8-9 years it's behind an entire season.

How could such a faulty calendar, based on the lesser, reflected light, possibly be considered to be of divine origin? Please see the same verse again, provided with cross-references from the Old and New Covenants, to assist in making sense of it.

Sura 2:189. They ask thee concerning the New Moons (Isa. 1:13-18). Say: "They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for their pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back (John 10:1-18): it is virtue if ye fear God (Matt. 10:28). Enter houses through the proper doors (Matt. 7:13-14): and fear God: that ye may prosper."

He is the One Who made the sun a radiant source and the moon a reflected light, with precisely ordained phases, so that you may know the number of years and calculation ˹of time˺. Allah did not create all this except for a purpose. He makes the signs clear for people of knowledge.
10:5

Please see the Book of Enoch for the explanation of this verse/ayat, and the Holy Calendar.

Indeed, the number of months ordained by Allah is twelve—in Allah’s Record since the day He created the heavens and the earth—of which four are sacred. That is the Right Way. So do not wrong one another during these months. And together fight the polytheists as they fight against you together. And know that Allah is with those mindful ˹of Him˺.
9:36

There are 12 months in the current solar calendar as well, which doesn't lose time every year. Is it not interesting that the sacred annual "feasts" (fasts) God gave us in His Law [Passover & the F(e)ast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks leading up to Pentecost, and the Day of Atonement followed by the F(e)ast of Tabernacles] occur in months 1, 2, 3 and 7 (four of the twelve months)?

Instinctively you would use the sun to determine the day (sundails and casting shadows to show the hour), the moon to determine the month and the seasons for the year. It was the only way to measure time.

Logically, one would use the sun to determine both the time of day and the calendar year. It shouldn't take someone very long at all to find out that a moon based calendar that loses an entire season in less than a decade doesn't work to determine the seasons of the year or a full year's time.

2) Where in the Koran does it specify how Ramadan is to be performed?
3) Where in the Koran does it specify the make-up date for those who might miss it due to illness or journey?


˹Fast a˺ prescribed number of days. But whoever of you is ill or on a journey, then ˹let them fast˺ an equal number of days ˹after Ramaḍân˺. For those who can only fast with extreme difficulty, compensation can be made by feeding a needy person ˹for every day not fasted˺. But whoever volunteers to give more, it is better for them. And to fast is better for you, if only you knew.
2:184

Ramaḍân is the month in which the Quran was revealed as a guide for humanity with clear proofs of guidance and the standard ˹to distinguish between right and wrong˺. So whoever is present this month, let them fast. But whoever is ill or on a journey, then ˹let them fast˺ an equal number of days ˹after Ramaḍân˺. Allah intends ease for you, not hardship, so that you may complete the prescribed period and proclaim the greatness of Allah for guiding you, and perhaps you will be grateful.
2:185

It has been made permissible for you to be intimate with your wives during the nights preceding the fast. Your spouses are a garment for you as you are for them. Allah knows that you were deceiving yourselves. So He has accepted your repentance and pardoned you. So now you may be intimate with them and seek what Allah has prescribed for you. ˹You may˺ eat and drink until you see the light of dawn breaking the darkness of night, then complete the fast until nightfall. Do not be intimate with your spouses while you are meditating in the mosques. These are the limits set by Allah, so do not exceed them. This is how Allah makes His revelations clear to people, so they may become mindful ˹of Him˺.
2:187

I found these verses which tells us how to fast and how to make up for lost days. There's also an option to feed a needy person if you can't make those days up.

The following passage (which includes some of the verses you've cited above) is from the Yusuf Ali translation of the 1922 Hafs Arabic version (boldface added for emphasis):

Sura 2:183-185
2:183. O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,-
2:184. (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.
2:185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

If we want to see how fasting was prescribed to those before us, we need only look in Leviticus 23, from The Law that God gave us through His Prophet and Servant Moses. Please see the excerpt below regarding the Passover, to illustrate how make the point about the days to be made up later.

Leviticus 23:4
23:4 These [are] the Feasts of the "I AM", [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the FIRST month at evening [is] the "I AM"'s Passover.
23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the Feast (Fast) of Unleavened Bread unto the "I AM": seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Numbers 9:9-13
9:9 And the "I AM" spoke unto Moses, saying,
9:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or [be] in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep The Passover unto the "I AM".
9:11 The fourteenth day of the SECOND month at even they shall keep it, [and] eat it with unleavened bread and bitter [herbs].
9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the Ordinances of The Passover they shall keep it.
9:13 But the man that [is] clean, and is not in a journey, and refuseth to keep The Passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the "I AM" in His appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.

So God has Commanded us to keep The Passover and the feast/fast of unleavened bread beginning on the 14th day of the FIRST month of the year according to His Holy Calendar unless we are unclean or on a journey, with the make-up time being exactly one month later, on the 14th day of the SECOND month of the year.

This is why the Koran Commands us so many times to read, study and put into practice what it says in The Law and the Gospel (e.g. Suras 2:53, 2:87-93, 3:1-3, 3:48-50, 4:54, 5:46-50, 6:91-92, 6:154-157, 7:157, 9:111, 11:17, 15:9-10, 17:2-4, 21:48, 23:20, 23:49, 25:35, 28:1-3, 32:23, 35:25-32, 37:117, 40:53, 40:70, 41:45, 42:14-17, 45:16, 46:12, 46:30, 48:29, 53:36-47, 57:25-29, 61:6, 78:2).

And also why there are zero references in the Koran to reading the hadith or sirah, both of which are condemned throughout Scripture (see Deut. 4:2, 12:8, 12:32, Matt. 15:3, 9, Sura 5:4).

 

[A Freeman]

I don't think Chinese whispers can even be done with 100% success rate in this modern time let alone follow the isnad.

What baffles me is how much they say ordinary folk aren't capable of understanding the Qur'an without a P'hd level in Arabic yet most aren't even reading it or trying to comprehend as much as they can. Instead they turn to prioritize hadith because we've been told only Islamic scholars have the knowledge to understand the fiqh of Qur'an.

Agreed. The spiritually blind leading the blind. Do they not realize the original Koran (Qur'an) wasn't written in Arabic?

Which I find every offensive because the Qur'an was revealed for mankind, sheikh or not.

And Allah brought you out of the wombs of your mothers while you knew nothing, and gave you hearing, sight, and intellect so perhaps you would be thankful.
16:78

These are the parables We set forth for humanity, but none will understand them except the people of knowledge.
29:43


Hadith Vs Qur'an

Here you are! You disputed about what you have ˹little˺ knowledge of, but why do you now argue about what you have no knowledge of? Allah knows and you do not know.
3:66

The disbelievers say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are no messenger.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Allah is sufficient as a Witness between me and you, as is whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
13:43

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Believe in this ˹Quran˺, or do not. Indeed, when it is recited to those who were gifted with knowledge before it ˹was revealed˺, they fall upon their faces in prostration,
17:107

As for those who strive to discredit Our revelations, it is they who will suffer the ˹worst˺ torment of agonizing pain.
34:5

Those gifted with knowledge ˹clearly˺ see that what has been revealed to you from your Lord ˹O Prophet˺ is the truth, and that it guides to the Path of the Almighty, the Praiseworthy.
34:6

˹This is˺ also so that those gifted with knowledge would know that this ˹revelation˺ is the truth from your Lord, so they have faith in it, and so their hearts would submit humbly to it. And Allah surely guides the believers to the Straight Path.
22:54

But this ˹Quran˺ is ˹a set of˺ clear revelations ˹preserved˺ in the hearts of those gifted with knowledge. And none denies Our revelations except the ˹stubborn˺ wrongdoers.
29:49

He is the One Who has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book, of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive. Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking ˹to spread˺ doubt through their ˹false˺ interpretations—but none grasps their ˹full˺ meaning except Allah. As for those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this ˹Quran˺—it is all from our Lord.” But none will be mindful ˹of this˺ except people of reason.
3:7

Allah ˹Himself˺ is a Witness that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—and so are the angels and people of knowledge. He is the Maintainer of justice. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—the Almighty, All-Wise.
3:18

Do not follow what you have no ˹sure˺ knowledge of. Indeed, all will be called to account for ˹their˺ hearing, sight, and intellect.
17:36

And this:-

Sura 5:51. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, CONFIRMING THE SCRIPTURE THAT CAME BEFORE IT, AND GUARDING IT IN SAFETY (Sura 32:23): so judge between them by what "I AM" hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires (Sura 9:107-111), diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed The Law and The Open Way (Matt. 7:13-14). If "I AM" had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His Plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to "I AM"; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters about which ye dispute;

Sura 15:9-10
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
15:10. We did send Apostles before thee amongst the religious sects (John 17:21; Sura 6:159) of old:

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

People using hadith to back up their arguments when it can't be proven.

Agreed. Without it, everyone would be reading the Old Covenant and New Covenant, and helping each other to get rid of all of the organized religions and return back doing as God has Commanded us to do.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

You're welcome. As was shared in that thread, Aisha is among the made-up characters from these same 100% fabricated documents that have provided fuel for endless debates.

As the Koran itself states, the goal of everyone should be Father (Allah, "I AM"), The Source of All Truth.

A few question, if you please @TempestOfTempo on the related subject of Ramadan:

1) Where in the Koran (Quran) does it specify a lunar calendar?

2) Where in the Koran does it specify how Ramadan is to be performed?

3) Where in the Koran does it specify the make-up date for those who might miss it due to illness or journey?

Behumble posted a lot of good info/Quranic scripture which is similar/the same as I am researching. They probably did a better job of answering your questions, at least answered them much quicker!

 

[lightroom]

Agreed. The spiritually blind leading the blind. Do they not realize the original Koran (Qur'an) wasn't written in Arabic?


And this:-

Sura 5:51. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, CONFIRMING THE SCRIPTURE THAT CAME BEFORE IT, AND GUARDING IT IN SAFETY (Sura 32:23): so judge between them by what "I AM" hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires (Sura 9:107-111), diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed The Law and The Open Way (Matt. 7:13-14). If "I AM" had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His Plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to "I AM"; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters about which ye dispute;

Sura 15:9-10
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
15:10. We did send Apostles before thee amongst the religious sects (John 17:21; Sura 6:159) of old:

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.


Agreed. Without it, everyone would be reading the Old Covenant and New Covenant, and helping each other to get rid of all of the organized religions and return back doing as God has Commanded us to do.

may i ask, in what language was it written in and who did?

 

[Mohammed_123]

The Demiurge

Yaldabaoth is his name...

Demiurge is the same

Yaldabaoth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mohammed_123]

seen as i mentioned SAMI and Samaritan a few days ago....look at this...

 

[TempestOfTempo]

We are straying far from the original topic. Muslims worship one, true Creator... period. At least, thats what Muslims are supposed to do... many are in deviance, both willful and unwitting.

 

[Mohammed_123]

The Crafstman...
Is this the same creator god?

The same as brahma, the alpha and the omega, right?

yeah

one and the same