different logic like apples and orange comparison. So far off what your trying to compare.
Judged by the law and works
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Don't forget SDA's
lightseeker
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How is that apples and oranges? Lucifer was saved and in heaven and lost salvation due to pride. Hence salvation can be lost due to your actions, clearly
lightseeker
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I agree simply being a good person is not salvific but the implication of your post is that you can sin and commit evil and as long as you said at sometime in your life I believe in the gospel you are saved. I believe faith saves and not works as you put it but faith is a continual work. Do you have perfect faith in God? Or did you have a thought about the world today?
Love God with all your strength, soul, heart and mind.
"Do not think about your life" Jesus christ
As if faith is just a simple moment in your life and not a continual battle in prayer and temptation to have your faith prevail over ignorance, your latent tendencies, your past, your instinct etc.
You are giving religion lite, a teaching suitable for megachurch stadiums, not a living faith
lightseeker
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By the way what is protestants problem with Catholics and orthodox etc? Since they believe that you can say at anytjme "I believe in the gospel" and then your religious process is finished, have not all other denominations done that? Since after that ir doesn't matter what you do, if it's evil or not, why does it matter that they pray and give sacraments, have beautiful churches and not just mall rooms? Is that not better than literally committing evil which you said was a fine thing to do? Lol that makes no sense
Lyfe
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I believe God knows whether or not someone is sincere in their repentance. The Bible speaks of worldly sorrow and Godly sorrow. If someone turns to Christ in genuine repentance and faith they have met the condition for salvation and get recorded in the book of life and become sealed with the holy spirit until the day of redemption. There are many who turn to God and have no real intent or desire to surrender themselves. They still want to live in the manner in which they did before and use the grace of God as a license to sin, but the Bible plainly teaches against this.
We have to differentiate between real and false conversion and then people who claim to be Christian just, because its a social norm. I really believe that most people who claim to be Christian havent even had any kind of conversion experience at all. They cant even be called false converts, because they havent even done so much as heard any semblence of the gospel or gone to any semblence of a church. They just claim to be a Christian or contend, "Yeah I believe in God."
We have to differentiate between real and false conversion and then people who claim to be Christian just, because its a social norm. I really believe that most people who claim to be Christian havent even had any kind of conversion experience at all. They cant even be called false converts, because they havent even done so much as heard any semblence of the gospel or gone to any semblence of a church. They just claim to be a Christian or contend, "Yeah I believe in God."
phipps
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@Jimmy Onions
And convert means turning to God. "So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren" (Acts 15:3).
Also do you remember how Jesus was baptised? He was baptised by water and the Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. We have to be baptised by both just as Jesus was since He is our example.
Matthew 5:48, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
1 Peter 1:15-16, "but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
John 8:11, "And Jesus said to her (Mary Magdalene), “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.“ How much is sin no more? .... it means, "not to sin again."
1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
Sinlessness is possible according to Bible. The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the law and James tells us if we break one commandment we've broken them all. We are supposed to keep all the commandments and be completely obedient to God but (this is the bit you and those who disagree with biblical doctrine reject) we can't do it on our own. But we can do it in Christ's power.
Is having a fallen sinful nature by choice or without a choice?
We don't have a fallen sinful nature by choice. But committing sin is a choice. That is why we are responsible for sin. We can choose not to sin by choosing the power of God to help us overcome all temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13). The bottom line is - sinful nature in itself is NOT sin.
Ecclesiastes 12:13, “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.”
1 John 2:3, “By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments”
Secondly, where did I say I stopped sinning completely. I haven't nor have I implied it but does that mean I don't tell the truth of God's Word? The Bible tells us we can stop sinning completely and I believe we can. If God says we can do something, its true. For God does not lie. Its a gradual process of growth in Christ (sanctification) but we can do it in Christ if we have faith. What I post is not about me, its about God. I will continue to tell the truth of God's entire Word (not pick and choose what suits me) and I will continue to pray that God give me faith and love so that I can be obedient to His Word completely eventually.
James and the rest of the Bible make it clear we have to have faith and works and nothing you say will change that truth. Nothing will change the fact that God is going to judge us by those works because they prove our faith through grace. That is why there is a record of our deeds in heaven. James even gives the example of demons who certainly have belief in the existence and power of God but I'm sure you'd agree that their deeds show them to be in direct opposition to Christ. Faith without works is a "dead" faith that has no redemptive or transformative power.
God bless too.
P.S look up the word troll because clearly you don't know what it means. I don't troll.
And this is my last response to you on this subject, lets leave the rest to God.
Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments."
The Bible does not use the word "believe" to mean repent. Here are a few scripture on repentance and its clear what they mean. Even in the dictionary the word repent means, "feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin."
And convert means turning to God. "So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren" (Acts 15:3).
Can't you read? I'll put the important parts of the verse in blue and underline them too that point out that we need both the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit, "Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Don't reject the bit that clearly says we won't enter the kingdom of heaven unless we are baptised by water and the Spirit.
Also do you remember how Jesus was baptised? He was baptised by water and the Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. We have to be baptised by both just as Jesus was since He is our example.
There is only one way of baptism, and here is what scripture says, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:5-6). I'll take the Word of God over yours.
So you're saying the calls for saved people to have an active faith which shows in their works has nothing to do with eternal salvation? Not according to the Bible. That is why we are all going to be judged by the law and works will determine who makes it to eternal salvation.
No, just the conditions and I'm not the one who makes them a salvation issue, God does as I showed you from His Word but of course you reject all that scripture because it contradicts your false doctrine.
You've misunderstood that scripture you've posted too. The Bible does not contradict itself so it cannot say one thing in one place and say another somewhere else.
Matthew 5:48, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
1 Peter 1:15-16, "but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
John 8:11, "And Jesus said to her (Mary Magdalene), “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.“ How much is sin no more? .... it means, "not to sin again."
1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
Sinlessness is possible according to Bible. The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the law and James tells us if we break one commandment we've broken them all. We are supposed to keep all the commandments and be completely obedient to God but (this is the bit you and those who disagree with biblical doctrine reject) we can't do it on our own. But we can do it in Christ's power.
Nope. Not according to the Bible. We have sinful natures. Having a sinful nature is not sin. Just like temptation is not sin. Only when one yields to temptation then sin appears because the law becomes broken. There can be one thousand temptations knocking on the door and sin cannot be present if there is no yielding to any of those. Thus, sinful nature in itself is NOT sin.
Is having a fallen sinful nature by choice or without a choice?
We don't have a fallen sinful nature by choice. But committing sin is a choice. That is why we are responsible for sin. We can choose not to sin by choosing the power of God to help us overcome all temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13). The bottom line is - sinful nature in itself is NOT sin.
True.
Yes but there is more to it than that but we can't go into that right now.
That's true but we can leave and forsake Christ because we always have free will. Being saved did not take our free will away that is why in the Bible there are warnings for those who walk away after being saved. Remember I showed you those passages from the Bible, Ezekiel 18:24, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-28.
I explained in this post in another thread what it means to be under law and under grace. Many Christians including you don't understand what they mean. However Paul said, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" (Romans 6:14-15). Being under grace means we have to be obedient to the law. If we are justified and have the law written in our hearts we naturally obey it.
What complete nonsense and it is not written anywhere in the Bible. Have you forgotten that Christ paid the price for our sins in our place? That is how serious the the issue of sin is. We are not going to get a slap on the wrist then told to go on our way because of our sinful natures. There is no middle ground either, we are either on God's side or we are not.
Then why does the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation tell us we have to keep the law and if we don't we won't make it to the heavenly kingdom as I've shown you from actual scripture. But you reject that scripture again because it contradicts your doctrine. Its the theme of all your posts here.
Ecclesiastes 12:13, “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.”
1 John 2:3, “By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments”
The Bible says we are saved "by grace through faith". Without God's grace, salvation would be impossible, and without exercising genuine faith in God's grace it would be equally impossible. Our works prove if we have faith in God's grace. Works are tangible and will reveal the truth in the light of God's commandments which are the basis of the judgement.
Works play no role in our salvation, which depends completely on the merits of Christ. However, works testify that we have accepted Christ's work for us and in us. That means that, while we are not saved in any way by works, we are not saved without works, because works of grace follow naturally from Christ's work of grace in the heart. That is why we are going to be judged by works, so says the Bible.
First of all what an immature thing to say. I'll ignore most of it.
Secondly, where did I say I stopped sinning completely. I haven't nor have I implied it but does that mean I don't tell the truth of God's Word? The Bible tells us we can stop sinning completely and I believe we can. If God says we can do something, its true. For God does not lie. Its a gradual process of growth in Christ (sanctification) but we can do it in Christ if we have faith. What I post is not about me, its about God. I will continue to tell the truth of God's entire Word (not pick and choose what suits me) and I will continue to pray that God give me faith and love so that I can be obedient to His Word completely eventually.
I've already posted scripture after scripture that you've rejected completely because it contradicts your doctrine and does not suit your beliefs. In some cases you've actually changed the meaning of scripture to suit you and your doctrine.
James and the rest of the Bible make it clear we have to have faith and works and nothing you say will change that truth. Nothing will change the fact that God is going to judge us by those works because they prove our faith through grace. That is why there is a record of our deeds in heaven. James even gives the example of demons who certainly have belief in the existence and power of God but I'm sure you'd agree that their deeds show them to be in direct opposition to Christ. Faith without works is a "dead" faith that has no redemptive or transformative power.
Your doctrine picks and chooses portions of scripture while rejecting others that don't suit it. Those are tactics that Satan uses to make Christians comfortable in their sins. He has blinded millions into thinking the law should not be kept contrary to what the entire Bible teaches including Christ and the apostles. I hope and pray you wake up from this lie before its too late. The Bible does not harmonise or make sense in your beliefs either.
God bless too.
P.S look up the word troll because clearly you don't know what it means. I don't troll.
And this is my last response to you on this subject, lets leave the rest to God.
Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments."
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phipps
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How does the devil feel about people who pattern their lives after God’s Ten Commandments?
Revelation 12:17, “The dragon [the devil] was enraged with the woman [true church], and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God."
Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God.”
The devil hates those who uphold God’s law because the law is a pattern of right living, so it is not surprising that he bitterly opposes all who uphold God’s law. In his war against God’s holy standard, he goes so far as to use religious leaders to deny the Ten Commandments while at the same time upholding the traditions of men. No wonder Jesus said, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? … In vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:3, 9). And David said, “It is time for You to act, O Lord, for they have regarded Your law as void” (Psalm 119:126). Christians must wake up and restore God’s law to its rightful place in their hearts and lives.
Why do so many people deny the binding claims of God's law?
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His" (Romans 8:7-9).
Why worry about the law? Isn’t conscience a safe guide?
No! The Bible speaks of an evil conscience, a defiled conscience, and a seared conscience—none of which is safe. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death” (Proverbs 14:12). God says, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool” (Proverbs 28:26).
Revelation 12:17, “The dragon [the devil] was enraged with the woman [true church], and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God."
Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God.”
The devil hates those who uphold God’s law because the law is a pattern of right living, so it is not surprising that he bitterly opposes all who uphold God’s law. In his war against God’s holy standard, he goes so far as to use religious leaders to deny the Ten Commandments while at the same time upholding the traditions of men. No wonder Jesus said, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? … In vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:3, 9). And David said, “It is time for You to act, O Lord, for they have regarded Your law as void” (Psalm 119:126). Christians must wake up and restore God’s law to its rightful place in their hearts and lives.
Why do so many people deny the binding claims of God's law?
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His" (Romans 8:7-9).
Why worry about the law? Isn’t conscience a safe guide?
No! The Bible speaks of an evil conscience, a defiled conscience, and a seared conscience—none of which is safe. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death” (Proverbs 14:12). God says, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool” (Proverbs 28:26).
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phipps
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What motivates a person to obey God's law?
Romans 13:10, "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
Matthew 22:37-39, "Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ "
1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."
Love is the magnificent motivator. The first four commandments have to do with my duty to God. When I love Him, obeying those commands is a pleasure. The last six commandments embrace my duty to people. If I truly love people, I will not want to do anything that would hurt them.
Romans 13:10, "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
Matthew 22:37-39, "Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ "
1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."
Love is the magnificent motivator. The first four commandments have to do with my duty to God. When I love Him, obeying those commands is a pleasure. The last six commandments embrace my duty to people. If I truly love people, I will not want to do anything that would hurt them.
lightseeker
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Good write up Phipps I enjoyed reading that.
The notion that our actions don't matter to God is so unbiblical its unreal.
Just look at Revelation - drunkards, liars, fornication, witches....etc etc etc.... all have their place in the lake of fire.
All actions which led them there. Nothing about fornicators and liars who said they believe the gospel being saved
phipps
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Exactly. The sad thing is confessed Christians are the ones saying here that works don't matter when the Bible clearly says the opposite as you've pointed out from Revelation. I've posted more scripture on that and they just dismissed it all.
I should be surprised but I've been here long enough so I'm not.
lightseeker
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It's a very insidious doctrine. They can't seem to resolve the faith/works relationship. As if they are unrelated things, they're not. I think this passage summarizes It PERFECTLY, because it talks about both deeds and faith. Let's read the Holy words of the Bible and let it resolve this false conundrum.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (this passage deals with belief) 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3
Everyone that does evil hates the light. Even ourselves, when we do evil we are rejecting the light. That is where repentance comes into play, that we correct that in ourselves which does not love the light, and grace and mercy from God help us. Evil ones don't go to the light because they don't want to be reproved, by repenting we reprove ourselves. He that DOES TRUTH as the disciple of Jesus says, has deeds manifest that we wrought in God. Thus there's no difference between faith and deeds.
One of the laws of God, what protestant would call a "work" IS to have complete and total faith in God with your entire being. Thus again there's no difference.
To me this conundrum was cooked up by people that don't want to put the effort into religion, they want to say they got saved when they went to church and that was the end of the story, now they can continue on living like they were before.
Lyfe
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I dont think anybody who is familiar with scripture would say that works arent important to God. There is a massive difference tho behind the idea of a salvation that brings regeneration to the human heart and then bearing the fruit of the spirit as a natural result of this(works) and then the idea of getting saved and doing works to maintain that salvation. One is completely accompalished and done by grace as sovereign work of God(on and in the human heart) and the other is God making it possible, but man has to ultimately work to maintain his place in the kingdom of God.
There is also a difference between the old and new covenant. The old covenant was the law whereas the new covenant is the spirit. You really dont see Paul focus too much on the law in the new testament or any of the other apostles. They primarily speak of the spirit and exhorting the saints to love and do good to one another. They dont focus or point back to the law, because the spirit did what the law never could do - regenerate and change the heart of the sinner.
Biblical salvation isnt the sinners prayer.
Biblical salvation isnt a life of worldliness or indifference to sin.
Biblical salvation is having ones nature changed and regenerated and fruit will come as a natural result of that.
If a person says to be saved and they continue to live a life charscterized by carnality and worldliness without being convicted, grieved, or corrected by God then its very likely they were never regenerated or entered into a covenant with him to begin with. They were never at any point saved. Now It is possible to be a babe in Christ and live this way for a while, but eventually God intervenes if said person is truly a son or daughter.
If someone has been truly converted and regenerated by the spirit of God then works will come as a result of the fruit of the spirit and God being at work in them and in their life.
There is also a difference between the old and new covenant. The old covenant was the law whereas the new covenant is the spirit. You really dont see Paul focus too much on the law in the new testament or any of the other apostles. They primarily speak of the spirit and exhorting the saints to love and do good to one another. They dont focus or point back to the law, because the spirit did what the law never could do - regenerate and change the heart of the sinner.
Biblical salvation isnt the sinners prayer.
Biblical salvation isnt a life of worldliness or indifference to sin.
Biblical salvation is having ones nature changed and regenerated and fruit will come as a natural result of that.
If a person says to be saved and they continue to live a life charscterized by carnality and worldliness without being convicted, grieved, or corrected by God then its very likely they were never regenerated or entered into a covenant with him to begin with. They were never at any point saved. Now It is possible to be a babe in Christ and live this way for a while, but eventually God intervenes if said person is truly a son or daughter.
If someone has been truly converted and regenerated by the spirit of God then works will come as a result of the fruit of the spirit and God being at work in them and in their life.
floss
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- That's a misconception from Hollywood. Lucifer is currently not in hell, he still has access to heaven right now.
- Christ died for mortal human being not immortal angelic being.
- Salvation is a gift. Someone else paid for the gift. If you have to work for a gift, it's no longer considered a gift. You cannot earn or work for a gift from God. If God's gift has a string attach, then he's unrighteous.
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To add, that theory is the same as Luther's "sola fide" (justification by faith alone). Check out the entry you realize this seemingly never ending argument over salvation has deep roots going back 500 years (and more):
"Martin Luther elevated sola fide to the principal cause of the Protestant Reformation, the rallying cry of the Lutheran cause, and the chief distinction of the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Christianity from Roman Catholicism. John Calvin, also a proponent of this doctrine, taught that "every one who would obtain the righteousness of Christ must renounce his own." According to Calvin, it is only because the sinner is able to obtain the good standing of the Son of God, through faith in him, and union with him, that sinners have any hope of pardon from, acceptance by, and peace with God."
As you properly noted these are man made doctrines formulated by placing undue emphasis on certain verses while ignoring others. The explanation you and @lightseeker are giving is really sound. Faith and good work go hand-in-hand; they cannot and should not be stripped from each other for the sake of theoretical propositions. You're not ignoring the statements by Paul about faith, just balancing them in context of the wider Biblical message.
That's beautiful man, exactly. My years at the forum have shown me I don't get enjoyment from theological debates while some people thrive off this stuff. Theology can feed the rational mind and ego but real spirituality proceeds from the heart. There's a good quote: "It's all about what you do not what you say." Righteous people should be more active with collective works than merely talking.
Jimmy Onions
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I wrote 2 times why our actions DO matter to God, but NOT for salvation, because it is NOT a reward, but a gift. It's like Lordship people have a mental blockage that prevents them from distinguishing 1. Salvation 2. Discipleship
Jimmy Onions
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First of all, you probably are the highest trained Lordship Salvationist I've seen. You somehow managed to put "saved without works" and then saved by doing the law and everything Jesus or any apostle ever said in the same context.
"But it's Jesus doing through us, right?"
I'm just gonna explain the verses you quoted. Everything else is clear nonsense.
Acts 15:31 - they rejoiced because of conversion, that is, they received the Holy Spirit and got saved by BELIEVING.
John 3:5 - water and Spirit defined in John 3:6
Ephesians 4:5-6 - yes, one baptism regarding salvation, and that is the Baptism by the Holy Spirit, received by BELIEVING.
Matthew 5:48 - awesome. Are you perfect?
1 Peter 15-16 - awesome. Are you holy as God in heaven?
John 8:11 - why did Jesus say that. Because, when he was still alive, the law was still in power, which meant that if she fornicated again, she would bring herself into the same situation, they would stone her. So He tells her: "go and sin no more", not to bring trouble unto herself again.
1 John 3:9 - and who is born of God? Our new nature, that cannot sin. However, there still is our old nature, which can sin.
If we stop believing, "he remaineth faithful, he cannot deny himself" 2 Timothy 2:13
There is your OSAS. And it's rooted in the Bible, not in false doctrine of heretics like Calvin, Luther, etc.
Revelation 22:14 - yes. Blessed are those who love God and love his neighbour. And what if they don't? They're not saved?
And 22:15 - why is He mentioning their sins? Because they're not justified by His blood. They didn't BELIEVE, so their sins remained.
Hebrews 5:9 - if we obey, that is, if we TRUST! How do we obey God? By believing the Gospel!
Now, some scriptures for you, on HOW TO BE SAVED (emphasis added):
ACTS 16:31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
ROMANS 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
ROMANS 3:20-22
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference:
ROMANS 4:1-5
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(if James 2 is talking about eternal salvation, it clearly contradicts Paul here.)
JOHN 6:40 (the will of the Father from Matthew 7 defined)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and BELIEVETH on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
JOHN 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
JOHN 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name:
EPHESIANS 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD (not MUST) walk in them.
JOHN 3:14-15
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
JOHN 3:36
36 He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
JOHN 3:17-18
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that BELIEVETH on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
JOHN 6.47
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH on me hath (means, right this moment) everlasting life.
(how long is everlasting? FOREVER! If we stop believing, if we have bad works, whatever. It is not probationary life, its EVERLASTING LIFE which we already have, IF WE BELIEVED. Also, you said " works will determine who makes it to eternal salvation." So, you believe in salvation by works. Also, you live without knowing where you will end up after you die for eternity? And that is good news to you?)
ACTS 10:43
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive remission of sins.
(free grace from cover to cover)
GALATIANS 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(according to your meaning of the parable of the rich young ruler, Jesus contradicts Paul here. Keeping the commandmends =/= justification)
1 JOHN 5:1
5 Whosoever BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
(clear distinction between Salvation and Discipleship)
1 JOHN 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Son of God?
GALATIANS 3:26
26 For ye are all the children of God by FAITH in Christ Jesus.
JOHN 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that BELIEVETH in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and BELIEVETH in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(many people don't)
And there is so much more. I can give you more thank twice verses I just posted if you want.
You post a bunch of verses like "if you love me, keep my commandments.", and regard then as a commandment for salvation. Are we saved by loving Jesus? NO, we are saved by BELIEVING in his finished work.
Edit: regarding disobedience and chastening, which you consider to be nonsense:
1 CORINTHIANS 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
HEBREWS 12:6-7
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But there are no disobedient Christians according to you, only false converts.
If you don't want to talk to me anymore, at least listen to this. Recommended for anyone else too.
Can a Believer Live as He Please and Still Go to Heaven?
Dr. Thomas M. Cucuzza | Northland Bible Baptist Church
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phipps
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When I started this thread and the "Is God particular?" one I knew most Christians would disagree with me here from experience in the past on these subjects. Whenever the subjects of obedience, faith and works and judgement come up there are heated discussions and most of them are not based on the Bible but on what people have been taught in their Churches. I also knew I would get insulted and ridiculed and it happened on cue.
None of that will change the truth of the Bible on those subjects. If we trust and love God we will obey Him. Our works of obedience are presented as evidence in the judgment that we trust God’s amazing grace, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Our works, our feelings, our lives show if we are connected to Christ or not (1 John 1:6, 2:3-11, 3:3-22).
2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that, "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that many of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." If we as Christians claim to believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God as Paul put it, and its God's message to us and is the truth, how can we dismiss/reject God's Word on certain subjects because it does not agree with our doctrines? If a teaching contradicts the Word of God, we are supposed to reject it immediately not the other way round.
And so its my prayer that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. That we approach God's Word with an open mind so the Holy Spirit can guide us. The Bible says, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). We are assured repeatedly in the Bible that truth is contained in God's Word.
God bless all here.
None of that will change the truth of the Bible on those subjects. If we trust and love God we will obey Him. Our works of obedience are presented as evidence in the judgment that we trust God’s amazing grace, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Our works, our feelings, our lives show if we are connected to Christ or not (1 John 1:6, 2:3-11, 3:3-22).
2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that, "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that many of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." If we as Christians claim to believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God as Paul put it, and its God's message to us and is the truth, how can we dismiss/reject God's Word on certain subjects because it does not agree with our doctrines? If a teaching contradicts the Word of God, we are supposed to reject it immediately not the other way round.
And so its my prayer that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. That we approach God's Word with an open mind so the Holy Spirit can guide us. The Bible says, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). We are assured repeatedly in the Bible that truth is contained in God's Word.
God bless all here.
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Jimmy Onions
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One Biblical example completely destroys this nonsense, especially the last verse (5):
1 CORINTHIANS 5:
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Guess what? Dude was a believer. He was as bad as a man can be. He didn't abide in Christ. He abode in his mother/stepmother! He got destroyed by Satan because of that. And guess what?
DING DING DING DING DING!
HE GOT SAVED!
John MacArthur, a through-and-through heretic who says you have to "Count the cost" of a gift LOL, even agreed to this in his commentary. Crazy stuff. You guys cannot deny the power of Christ.
lightseeker
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"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Corintheans