Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

[Lyfe]

I will have to read that later Lisa, because there are things I need to go take care of...


I personally believe that the falling away and those who fall away will come down to one thing and that is never coming to actually know God through the holy spirit. I mean just the very desire to walk in the counsel of his ways and love the things of God comes from a regenerated heart in the first place and that can only come from him. Nobody who has been made into a new creature in Christ can live in a constant state of sin if their very nature(inward disposition) is remade after Gods heart and he is their father. People really believe that the power to maintain their salvation actually comes from them which is naive, because its as I said the very desire to hold unto God at all costs comes a work HE DID within you at the moment of salvation. Not only that, but we forget God is a father. What parent is just going to let their well intended kid walk off a cliff and into a fire simply, because some evil man led them astray? Yet this is what you believe when you contend that God will just let the children of whom he identifies with lose their salvation just, because they were led astray by the lies of evil spirits.... I believe there is more to the falling away that leads someone to fall away than just on the basis of lies... It grieves my heart and Gods heart that so many of his people really dont see him as a father and that they think God will just let them walk right into hell by falling away without him going after them. God isnt going to let those he identifies with who are his children just fall away and then be like, "peaceout, your on your own." Hes not going to let his people go to hell just, because a demon lies to them. Would you let your kids walk into a fire cause someone pointed them in that direction, or would you hold them back? If you can fall away just on the premise of a lie and God doesnt bring it to your attention then you were never his child. If you can sin away your salvation and God doesnt convict you and chastise you and if it doesnt grieve you then you never became a new creature in Christ and identified with him to begin with.

So I believe that it comes down to either being a child, or a bastard(illegitimate son or daughter) as the author of Hebrews says... Those who know the lord through the holy spirit and those who are still bound by the sin nature.


Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[A Freeman]

There is the church of Christ spoken of in Matthew 16:18(the collective of those whom God has redeemed and purchased through the blood of Christ and the outpouring of the holy ghost) and the churches or assemblies of saints spread throughout the world.

Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

2Cor 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise [is] in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2Cor 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise [is] in the gospel throughout all the churches;
2Cor 8:19 And not [that] only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and [declaration of] your ready mind:

2Thess 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

I will stop there. You say nothing Paul did pertained to any church of any kind yet his writings were addressed to the churches or assembling of the saints. How could Paul write letters specifically to the churches and yet you say nothing Paul did pertained to the churches?

Because the word that's been MIStranslated into "church" is the original Greek word "ekklesia", which has absolutely NOTHING to do with church buildings (temples) or people assembling in them. It's actually a compound word "ek" which means "out of" and "klesia", which means "called". So the ekklesia are the community of people called out from the churches, which are condemned throughout Scriptures BECAUSE THEY ARE SATANIC.

Matthew 6:5-8
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward (they have been seen by men, but God will not answer them).
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private (Enoch 56:5; Sura 7:55); and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly (by answering you).
6:7 But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions, as the heathen [DO]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8 Be NOT ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, BEFORE ye ask Him.
.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the Most High dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and Earth, dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands;

Paul exhorted them in brotherly unity all the time, to be devoted to one another. How can there be unity without a church assembling? He also charged Timothy to oversee the saints in the context of an assembly. If Paul rebuked the notion of them assembling a church for the teachings of Christ then why does his letters to Timothy give instruction on how to do EXACTLY that by assigning elders and deacons and various other positions?

Paul NEVER promoted churches. Churches promote churches. Who do you think intentionally mistranslated the Greek word "ekklesia"?

How do you explain the FACT that God does NOT dwell in temples made with human hands (churches, synagogues, mosques, etc.)? God does not dwell there BECAUSE THOSE BUILDINGS ARE SATANIC, having made a BUSINESS of praying and worshiping God, which is a private matter, exactly as Christ said.

Christ went into the temple and overturned the moneychangers tables, to show everyone that those places are satanic. The leaders of the organized religion of the time - Talmudic Judaism - plotted against Jesus and crucified Him for threatening their lucrative business and positions of temporary, worldly power. How obvious does it need to be for people to see it?

YE CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MATERIALISM (Matt. 6:24), so how is it possible people still go to these satanic places of business, looking for God in the exact places God said He does NOT dwell?

The beginning of revelation starts with Jesus addressing the 7 churches of asia.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

It was God who had established the churches of revelation. Seven is the Biblical number for completion.

Agreed about the number 7 being God's number of completeness, proving the churches are completely WRONG.

Revelation 2:20-23
2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel (ch. 17), which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and ALL the communities shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your WORKS.

Which is why Christ warned His People to COME OUT OF HER.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT of her, MY people, that ye take not part in her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (punishment).

The Gospel wasnt merely just preached to the communities he visited as if it was a convenience that they were in the neighborhood. He was told of God to make that his primary mission.


Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.



No, you have the sequence wrong. We are FIRST adopted through the spirit of adoption(Romans 8:15) and this is the defining moment in which we now identify with the lord and become HIS. The spirit is the down payment and guarantee of our new life in Christ and the lord as his child.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Salvation takes place at the very moment one is indwelt by the holy spirit and this happens before anything else. You receive the spirit which is the spirit of adoption by the hearing of faith, not by obeying the law.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We are filled with the holy spirit and then adopted as a child of God and it is this moment that we begin to belong to him. Its not if we obey and then we are his, it is we are filled with the spirit of God upon FAITH AND BELIEF and then we are regenerated and transformed to walk in newness of life and holiness.

All of which are the teachings of the satanic churches, WHICH HAVE A 100% FAILURE RATE ACCORDING TO CHRIST (John 3:13). There is no such thing as faith without works, which always go hand-in-hand (James 2:17-26). And no one who does evil (sins) is a child of God. God says so.

Also, the "works of The Law" that Paul is referring to are ANIMAL SACRIFICES, which were replaced with "self" sacrifice at the cross, as both Christ and Paul stated.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny his "Self", and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Galatians 2:20 My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

No, not during his second coming, but upon Pauls writings.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Jesus CHOSE Paul to reveal this mystery.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Your zeal is not in according to scripture or the truth.

No. It's your understanding that's lacking, exactly as Peter warned:-

2 Peter 3:15-17
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the Wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles (letters), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other Scriptures, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.
3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, BEWARE LEST YE ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, fall from your own steadfastness.

The Bible and its prophecies were sealed 2500 years ago and time-locked by Christ, awaiting Christ's Second Coming during these end-times., when He (Christ) would break the seals and open the Bible to the "Elect" (those who awaken to Everlasting Life).

Daniel 12:1-4
12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).
12:2 And many of them that sleep in "the dust of the earth" (Gen. 13:16; 28:14) shall awake, some to Everlasting Life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to Righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and "seal" the Book (Rev. 5:1-5), [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and [evil] knowledge (1 Tim. 5:20) shall be increased.

Revelation 5:1-5
5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a Book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals (seven in God's "Code" means ALL or COMPLETELY).
5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the Book, and to loose the seals thereof?
5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the Book, neither to look thereon.
5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the Book, neither to look thereon.
5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Source of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

He condemned pagan practices in the churches, he did not condemn the churches themselves.

Do you even read what you write? Talk about some self-contradictory nonsense.

You really dont understand the concept of regeneration or what it means to be a new creature in Christ do you?

Have you ever considered it may be you who doesn't understand? Here's what Scripture says about being born again of God:-

1 John 3:4-10
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Nor do you understand the work that God has already accomplished in someone and will accomplish just by the holy spirit....

One who is truly filled with the Holy Spirit DOES NOT SIN, i.e. break God's Law. If they are, and they claim to know Christ, then they are a LIAR and the truth is NOT in them.

1 John 2:3-4
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.

Your only concern is with bringing one back under the bondage of the law.

You have it exactly backwards, as usual. BONDAGE IS TO SIN, WHICH IS BREAKING THE LAW.

It clearly states above in 1 John 3:8 that Christ's purpose is to destroy the works of the devil (SIN), and the ONLY Way to do that is to return everyone to keeping our COVENANT (Promise) to God to keep and enforce His Law ONLY.

There will never be freedom, justice, peace, prosperity and the safety and security that only God can provide until we return to keeping The Law. No one will be rewarded for being a criminal (law-breaker) regardless of what Satan whispers in people's ears in his churches.

The spirit gives life and the letter of the law that kills.

Shame on you for being so deceitful. It does NOT say "the letter of The Law", because obedience to The Law is LIFE.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the "I AM" thy God, to walk in His Ways, and to keep His Commandments and His Statutes and His Judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the "I AM" thy God shall bless thee in the land where thou goest to possess it.
30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, where thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
30:20 That thou mayest love the "I AM" thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He [is] thy Life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the "I AM" sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel, to give them.

Rarely do I ever see you magnify Christ and what he has done by the work he has already accomplished.

Perhaps because you are sound asleep spiritually? You're the one who talks incessantly about your misunderstandings of the letters of Paul, while ignoring Christ's Teachings about The Law, and the fact that Christ is THE MASTER/TEACHER.

So you are again very hypocritically accusing me of doing what YOU are doing.

I never see you bare witness to the holy spirit and acknowledge his work or power. Most of your passages of scripture are primarily from the old covenant. This is NOT leading from the spirit of God. You NEED Jesus Christ by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT and the blood of the lamb to OPEN your eyes!

Perhaps you should open your own. You are sound asleep and being completely dishonest with yourself and others.

2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Please note well it does NOT say "the letter of The Law" as you deceitfully suggested.

If Paul actually thought The Law was "death" as you have been conned into believing, then why did Paul keep The Law Himself? Why did Paul state The Law was holy, just and good? Why was Paul establishing The Law everywhere he went? And what did Paul actually say about those who are DOERS of The Law?

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Being) I myself serve The Law of God; but with the flesh (human) the law of sin.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore The Law [is] holy, and the Commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void The Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish The Law.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of The Law [are] just before God, but the DOERS of The Law (The Torah) shall be justified.

2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
2Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Cor 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Cor 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.
2Cor 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cor 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

It was the veil that was done away with, NOT the Covenant (Promise) we all have with God to keep His Law (Deut. 29:9-15, Matt, 5:17-19).

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the Perfect Law of Liberty (the true mirror), and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a DOER of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Anyone who isn't keeping The Law, after everything Christ sacrificed to redeem us from our PAST SINS (Rom. 3:25) is not only sound asleep spiritually, but is also making a mockery of His Sacrifice.

 

[Lisa]

I simply reject it as I don't believe that's what the Bible taught.

That makes me think people don’t think much about it.

The same way that you believe you're "being save" which mean you could still end up in hell.

My Bible says being saved....

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

www.bible.com

And ya..you could since the Spirit explicitly says that some will fall away from the faith.

Additionally, I strongly disagree with the fact that you believe Adam and Eve are in hell right now because they "fell away". You're in a way lifting yourself higher than God's first creation which to me is very disrespectful.

I’m not lifting myself higher than anyone...I just realize that not everyone is saved because they are in the Bible. If Adam and Eve have repented with God..than I don’t have any problem with that..but the Bible doesn’t say that they did...we only have that little snapshot.

 

[Lyfe]

Because the word that's been MIStranslated into "church" is the original Greek word "ekklesia", which has absolutely NOTHING to do with church buildings (temples) or people assembling in them. It's actually a compound word "ek" which means "out of" and "klesia", which means "called". So the ekklesia are the community of people called out from the churches, which are condemned throughout Scriptures BECAUSE THEY ARE SATANIC.

Matthew 6:5-8
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward (they have been seen by men, but God will not answer them).
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private (Enoch 56:5; Sura 7:55); and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly (by answering you).
6:7 But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions, as the heathen [DO]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8 Be NOT ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, BEFORE ye ask Him.
.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the Most High dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and Earth, dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands;


Paul NEVER promoted churches. Churches promote churches. Who do you think intentionally mistranslated the Greek word "ekklesia"?

How do you explain the FACT that God does NOT dwell in temples made with human hands (churches, synagogues, mosques, etc.)? God does not dwell there BECAUSE THOSE BUILDINGS ARE SATANIC, having made a BUSINESS of praying and worshiping God, which is a private matter, exactly as Christ said.

Christ went into the temple and overturned the moneychangers tables, to show everyone that those places are satanic. The leaders of the organized religion of the time - Talmudic Judaism - plotted against Jesus and crucified Him for threatening their lucrative business and positions of temporary, worldly power. How obvious does it need to be for people to see it?

YE CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MATERIALISM (Matt. 6:24), so how is it possible people still go to these satanic places of business, looking for God in the exact places God said He does NOT dwell?



Agreed about the number 7 being God's number of completeness, proving the churches are completely WRONG.

Revelation 2:20-23
2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel (ch. 17), which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and ALL the communities shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your WORKS.

Which is why Christ warned His People to COME OUT OF HER.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT of her, MY people, that ye take not part in her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (punishment).



All of which are the teachings of the satanic churches, WHICH HAVE A 100% FAILURE RATE ACCORDING TO CHRIST (John 3:13). There is no such thing as faith without works, which always go hand-in-hand (James 2:17-26). And no one who does evil (sins) is a child of God. God says so.

Also, the "works of The Law" that Paul is referring to are ANIMAL SACRIFICES, which were replaced with "self" sacrifice at the cross, as both Christ and Paul stated.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny his "Self", and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Galatians 2:20 My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


No. It's your understanding that's lacking, exactly as Peter warned:-

2 Peter 3:15-17
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the Wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles (letters), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other Scriptures, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.
3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, BEWARE LEST YE ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, fall from your own steadfastness.

The Bible and its prophecies were sealed 2500 years ago and time-locked by Christ, awaiting Christ's Second Coming during these end-times., when He (Christ) would break the seals and open the Bible to the "Elect" (those who awaken to Everlasting Life).

Daniel 12:1-4
12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).
12:2 And many of them that sleep in "the dust of the earth" (Gen. 13:16; 28:14) shall awake, some to Everlasting Life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to Righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and "seal" the Book (Rev. 5:1-5), [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and [evil] knowledge (1 Tim. 5:20) shall be increased.

Revelation 5:1-5
5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a Book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals (seven in God's "Code" means ALL or COMPLETELY).
5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the Book, and to loose the seals thereof?
5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the Book, neither to look thereon.
5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the Book, neither to look thereon.
5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Source of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.



Do you even read what you write? Talk about some self-contradictory nonsense.


Have you ever considered it may be you who doesn't understand? Here's what Scripture says about being born again of God:-

1 John 3:4-10
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


One who is truly filled with the Holy Spirit DOES NOT SIN, i.e. break God's Law. If they are, and they claim to know Christ, then they are a LIAR and the truth is NOT in them.

1 John 2:3-4
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.


You have it exactly backwards, as usual. BONDAGE IS TO SIN, WHICH IS BREAKING THE LAW.

It clearly states above in 1 John 3:8 that Christ's purpose is to destroy the works of the devil (SIN), and the ONLY Way to do that is to return everyone to keeping our COVENANT (Promise) to God to keep and enforce His Law ONLY.

There will never be freedom, justice, peace, prosperity and the safety and security that only God can provide until we return to keeping The Law. No one will be rewarded for being a criminal (law-breaker) regardless of what Satan whispers in people's ears in his churches.


Shame on you for being so deceitful. It does NOT say "the letter of The Law", because obedience to The Law is LIFE.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the "I AM" thy God, to walk in His Ways, and to keep His Commandments and His Statutes and His Judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the "I AM" thy God shall bless thee in the land where thou goest to possess it.
30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, where thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
30:20 That thou mayest love the "I AM" thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He [is] thy Life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the "I AM" sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel, to give them.


Perhaps because you are sound asleep spiritually? You're the one who talks incessantly about your misunderstandings of the letters of Paul, while ignoring Christ's Teachings about The Law, and the fact that Christ is THE MASTER/TEACHER.

So you are again very hypocritically accusing me of doing what YOU are doing.


Perhaps you should open your own. You are sound asleep and being completely dishonest with yourself and others.


Please note well it does NOT say "the letter of The Law" as you deceitfully suggested.

If Paul actually thought The Law was "death" as you have been conned into believing, then why did Paul keep The Law Himself? Why did Paul state The Law was holy, just and good? Why was Paul establishing The Law everywhere he went? And what did Paul actually say about those who are DOERS of The Law?

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Being) I myself serve The Law of God; but with the flesh (human) the law of sin.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore The Law [is] holy, and the Commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void The Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish The Law.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of The Law [are] just before God, but the DOERS of The Law (The Torah) shall be justified.


It was the veil that was done away with, NOT the Covenant (Promise) we all have with God to keep His Law (Deut. 29:9-15, Matt, 5:17-19).

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the Perfect Law of Liberty (the true mirror), and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a DOER of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Anyone who isn't keeping The Law, after everything Christ sacrificed to redeem us from our PAST SINS (Rom. 3:25) is not only sound asleep spiritually, but is also making a mockery of His Sacrifice.

You can dispute the meaning behind what a church is, but cant dispute that its essentially an assembling so the idea remains the same. You also cant dispute that its Gods will for his people to be gathered together within the context of an orderly structure.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

1Tim 3:1 This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Tim 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Tim 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Tim 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Tim 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Tim 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1Tim 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Tim 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Tim 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.
1Tim 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Tim 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Tim 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1Tim 3:14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

1Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.


Titus 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

There are bishops, deacons, elders and etc. This is why he also gave some prophets, some pastors, some teachers, some evangelists and it was all meant for the edification of the churches and saints. These offices and roles don't even exist apart from the function of an assembling based off of a specific structure. The following passages paint the picture of a structured body.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Simply put you go against God by attempting to discredit the idea of assemblies with order and structure as they are clearly from and of God. Obviously there are perverted ones, but the ordaining of such still remains scriptural...

N e ways...

You come in the name of truth as a follower of Jesus yet you aren't even upfront about the fact that you also adhere to and promote the Koran and get your information from Jah Truth. You accuse me of being deceitful yet If that's not deceitful then I don't know what is... The holy spirit wont ever lead anyone away from Christ and into a worldview that holds both the the Bible and the Koran as authoritative and inspired. You will continue to point the people of God back to the law, but anyone who has ever been freed from an addiction or bondage will tell you that it wasnt the law that saved them or empowered them to live holy. It wasn't the law that made them zealous for good works. It was the holy spirit of God and the work of Jesus Christ. We magnify him and the work he does by the holy spirit. The holy spirit testifies of Christ and freedom and deliverance through him, not the law. Amen. The spirit leading you is not of God and I pray he would open your eyes...

 

[Lisa]

I will have to read that later Lisa, because there are things I need to go take care of...


I personally believe that the falling away and those who fall away will come down to one thing and that is never coming to actually know God through the holy spirit. I mean just the very desire to walk in the counsel of his ways and love the things of God comes from a regenerated heart in the first place and that can only come from him. Nobody who has been made into a new creature in Christ can live in a constant state of sin if their very nature(inward disposition) is remade after Gods heart and he is their father. People really believe that the power to maintain their salvation actually comes from them which is naive, because its as I said the very desire to hold unto God at all costs comes a work HE DID within you at the moment of salvation. Not only that, but we forget God is a father. What parent is just going to let their well intended kid walk off a cliff and into a fire simply, because some evil man led them astray? Yet this is what you believe when you contend that God will just let the children of whom he identifies with lose their salvation just, because they were led astray by the lies of evil spirits.... I believe there is more to the falling away that leads someone to fall away than just on the basis of lies... It grieves my heart and Gods heart that so many of his people really dont see him as a father and that they think God will just let them walk right into hell by falling away without him going after them. God isnt going to let those he identifies with who are his children just fall away and then be like, "peaceout, your on your own." Hes not going to let his people go to hell just, because a demon lies to them. Would you let your kids walk into a fire cause someone pointed them in that direction, or would you hold them back? If you can fall away just on the premise of a lie and God doesnt bring it to your attention then you were never his child. If you can sin away your salvation and God doesnt convict you and chastise you and if it doesnt grieve you then you never became a new creature in Christ and identified with him to begin with.

So I believe that it comes down to either being a child, or a bastard(illegitimate son or daughter) as the author of Hebrews says... Those who know the lord through the holy spirit and those who are still bound by the sin nature.


Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

I appreciate your willingness to look, thanks!

I can’t see it as not knowing God..as they fell away from the faith and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit. The faith would be the Christian faith and if you are made a partake of the Holy Spirit..then you have to be a Christian. I don’t see any way around those two verses honestly.

 

[A Freeman]

You can dispute the meaning behind what a church is, but cant dispute that its essentially an assembling so the idea remains the same. You also cant dispute that its Gods will for his people to be gathered together within the context of an orderly structure.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

1Tim 3:1 This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Tim 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Tim 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Tim 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Tim 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Tim 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1Tim 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Tim 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Tim 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.
1Tim 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Tim 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Tim 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1Tim 3:14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

1Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.


Titus 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

There are bishops, deacons, elders and etc. This is why he also gave some prophets, some pastors, some teachers, some evangelists and it was all meant for the edification of the churches and saints. These offices and roles don't even exist apart from the function of an assembling based off of a specific structure. The following passages paint the picture of a structured body.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Simply put you go against God by attempting to discredit the idea of assemblies with order and structure as they are clearly from and of God. Obviously there are perverted ones, but the ordaining of such still remains scriptural...

N e ways...

You come in the name of truth as a follower of Jesus yet you aren't even upfront about the fact that you also adhere to and promote the Koran and get your information from Jah Truth. You accuse me of being deceitful yet If that's not deceitful then I don't know what is... The holy spirit wont ever lead anyone away from Christ and into a worldview that holds both the the Bible and the Koran as authoritative and inspired. You will continue to point the people of God back to the law, but anyone who has ever been freed from an addiction or bondage will tell you that it wasnt the law that saved them or empowered them to live holy. It wasn't the law that made them zealous for good works. It was the holy spirit of God and the work of Jesus Christ. We magnify him and the work he does by the holy spirit. The holy spirit testifies of Christ and freedom and deliverance through him, not the law. Amen. The spirit leading you is not of God and I pray he would open your eyes...

1 Timothy 3 was ADDED to the Bible by the churches, just as the story of the adulterous woman was in John 8, the "Johannine comma" in 1 John 5:7 and the trinitarian wording in Matthew 28:19. There are other places where there have been intentional mistranslations, which likewise stick out like a sore thumb, e.g. Acts 12:4 where the word "Easter" has been substituted in place of Passover, the latter of which is the correct translation of the Greek word "pascha", which is why the other 28 times it's found it has been properly translated as Passover. The same goes for Philippians 2:6, which has likewise been obviously mistranslated, as Christ told everyone repeatedly that Father is greater than He is, greater than all, and is Christ's God.

How do we know for absolute certainty that all of the above is true? Through the original transcripts and the error correction that's built into the Bible. The error correction makes any idiotic additions stick out like a sore thumb against the rest of Scripture, and many of them are in complete disagreement with multiple other witnesses.

You may not realize it but it's YOU and the pagan, idolatrous organized religion that you espouse and promote -- known as 'Christianity' -- that leads people AWAY from God and His Christ. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Christianity is "the blind leading the blind" exactly as Christ told His Disciples. The same goes for every other organized religion on the planet. Anyone who thinks otherwise is calling Christ a liar.

Christianity is openly idolatrous, promoting a pagan, polyetheistic deity known as the "trinity" which has absolutely ZERO basis in Scripture and breaks the FIRST COMMANDMENT. Anyone who promotes the pagan trinity is denying the TRUE Father-Son relationship between Father and Christ and thus is openly anti-Christ.

Christianity rejects the words of Christ. They pretend that Christ didn't unequivocally state that no one should even think that He did away with The Law, that heaven and earth would pass away before that happened, and that anyone who teaches others to break God's Commandments is the lowest of the low in God's Eyes. That's why Christianity is NOT based on the words of Christ, but rather on the MISINTERPRETATIONS OF THE LETTERS ATTRIBUTED TO PAUL. Again, teaching the exact opposite of what Christ teaches, as you do, is overtly ANTI-CHRIST.

Christianity then promotes themselves as "born again" and "led by the Holy Spirit" to continue in open rebellion against Father and His Christ, as if God wants us to disobey Him by hurting each other, destroying our natural surroundings and eventually destroying ourselves. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN", which is an obvious oxymoron, because it's impossible to do the exact opposite of what Christ COMMANDS and then pretend to love and know Him. The way you can tell if someone is TRULY born again is if they KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

Just look at the title of this thread. More spiritually blind nonsense about having "faith" while openly defying God and making a mockery of Christ's Sacrifice by refusing to obey Them, making every excuse under the sun why it's okay to continue to do the exact opposite of what Christ COMMANDS.

Shouldn't we ALL be following Christ's Example? Did Christ break The Law (sin)? Did Christ not sacrifice Himself for the good of everyone else? Did Christ not tell us to love our enemies into being good?

You look at the Muslims as your enemy, so you can dismiss the Koran which you probably have never read for yourself, much less understood. You apparently don't even understand the Bible, because you keep promoting a self-contradictory anti-Christ message while pretending to be a follower of Christ. Don't you think that Christ would be reaching out to everyone on this planet regardless of their organized religious affiliations (all of which He openly condemned)?

Pointing out to the Muslims that Christ is mentioned more than anyone else in the Koran, that the Koran tells its readers they MUST read The Law and the Gospel and that they MUST follow Christ's SUPERIOR Example, is actually striving to help them come to know and love Christ, exactly as Christ would want us to do.

You hypocrite! You attack everything Christ does while pretending to love and know Him. Please, for your own sake and for the sake of others whom you deceive, stop with your deceitful, anti-Christ messages and start DOING what Christ COMMANDS us to do: OBEY GOD AND HIS LAW ONLY. There's no other way to invite Christ and Father's Holy Spirit inside of you.

Anyone who doesn't do exactly that WILL BURN, exactly as we've been warned for thousands of Earth years.

God Bless.

 

[A Freeman]

There seems to be a lot of confusion within this thread about salvation, and whether faith saves us, or works saves us, or whether they are at odds with one another somehow, etc.

The most important words in all of Scripture are found in John 3:3-13, which are as follows:-

John 3:3-13
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot SEE The Kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (human) and then is born (later) from above as his spirit-"Being" (his REAL self which is NOT human), he can NOT enter into The Kingdom of God (Who is a Spirit-"Being").
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is human; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spirit-"Being") - (a human+Being).
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and where it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? (How can I not be human?)
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly (spirit) things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.

It's IMPOSSIBLE for a human (flesh) to understand ANYTHING spiritual, because it's completely foreign to the human. The human is born here into this world, and dies here in this world, and knows only the ways of this world from its birth to its death.

The spirit (Being of Light - Soul) is NOT FROM THIS WORLD, as Christ repeatedly said (e.g. John 17:5, John 18:36), and it is only through spiritual eyes that one can "see" the Kingdom of God, much less be able to enter it. That's why, in John 3:13, Christ said NO MAN HATH ASCENDED TO HEAVEN except for Him (Christ), Who is from heaven.

Humans have been trying for thousands of Earth years to grasp things they cannot possibly understand, because we refuse to do what we've been COMMANDED to do to overcome the human (Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26-28, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21, 21:7), by bringing it under complete subjection to spirit-Being within.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep my body under [control], and bring [the "Self"] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace (John 3:5-6).
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh CANNOT please God.

When one OVERCOMES the body, with its human thinking, and brings it into complete subjection to the spirit-Being within, the perspective on everything changes. It's like night (the human/carnal way of thinking) and day (following Christ's Example - the Light of the World) in everything. That's what it means for one to be genuinely reborn as their true, spiritual self.

See Matt. 4:1-11 to see how Christ overcame the world while He was here in the body of Jesus. That's exactly how to break the body of its own self-will and bring it under complete subjection, so it wants to do Father's Will ONLY (Matt. 6:9-13). This is a place most are unwilling to follow Christ, but it's the only way to true, spiritual enlightenment, as all of the Prophets found out.

So how can we tell the impostors from those who have truly been reborn of God from above?

1 John 3:8-9
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, which is sin. And what is sin? Sin is breaking The Law of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.

Therefore, anyone who promotes anything but a full return to keeping The Law, is an impostor, who doesn't really know Christ, much less love Him.

1 John 2:3-4
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.

Of course Christ said exactly the same thing:-

John 14:15, 21-24
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.

14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The only way Christ can destroy sin (the works of the devil) is if everyone stops sinning/breaking God's Law. And that's exactly what WILL happen under Christ's 1000 years reign on Earth (the Sabbath millennium, after 6000 years of misrule under Satan), with the chosen few who are redeemed from the Earth (Rev. 7:4-9, Rev. 14:1-4). This is also precisely why Christ said The Law will NEVER pass away, because to say otherwise would promote sinning, the very works Christ came to destroy.

Matthew 5:17-19
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill [fully preach The Law (The Torah) and fulfill the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah].
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till ALL be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in The Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in The Kingdom of heaven.

It should therefore be self-evident that the ONLY Way one can show their faith is BY their works or, in other words "walk the walk" instead of just "talking the talk".

James 2:17-26
2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?
2:21 Was not our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example - Sura 16:123; 60:4)?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?
2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

Please read verse 26 again carefully. A human body without the spirit-Being inside of it is just a worthless lump of flesh, incapable of doing anything. The spirit-Being is meant to be the driver, with the body simply being the car (vessel). And with the spirit-Being in control, one's works are a show of one's faith, and go hand-in-hand. It's why we were created (Eph. 2:10).

Every single bit of confusion on this subject is brought about by humans desperately trying to find a way to continue breaking The Law and doing whatever they wish. That's why they turn to the letters of Paul, and then misinterpret them, because The Law of God is foreign to humans and their self-centered ways of thinking.

IF Paul's letters are properly read, there is NOTHING in them that suggests for one moment that we shouldn't follow Christ's Example and keep The Law. On the contrary, Paul says The Law is holy, just and good (Rom. 7:12), which is why he was keeping it himself (Rom. 7:25) and establishing it everywhere he went (Rom. 3:31). Only those who are DOERS of The Law will be justified before Christ (Rom. 2:13), which is why Christ promised us that every one of us WILL be judged ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS (Matt. 16:27, Rev. 20:12-15).

To assist others in overcoming their humans, with their backwards, anti-spiritual way of looking at things, please bear the following in mind with Paul's letters:-

1) When Paul says: we are no longer "under The Law" he has abbreviated the term "under the curse of The Law" which is the penalty clause for NOT KEEPING THE LAW (see Deut. 28). The ONLY way to no longer be under the curse of The Law is to keep The Law (stop sinning).

2) When Paul says: no one is saved by "the works of The Law" he is specifically talking about ANIMAL SACRIFICES, which were used to atone for sins, foreshadowing Christ's Sacrifice. Animal sacrifice was replaced with "self" sacrifice at the cross (see Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14). Paul clearly is NOT talking about doing good, Godly works, as defined in The Law by the Commandments, Statutes and Judgments of God, or Paul would not only be contradicting himself (Eph. 2:10), but he would also be contradicting Christ and God, which is utterly ridiculous.

3) When Paul says: "we are led by the Spirit", he is referring to both the Spirit-Being and the Holy Spirit of God. And the ONLY Way to be led by the Spirit is by DOING God's Will, which BEGINS with keeping His Law/Commandments, which God gave to us to protect us from evil and to set and keep us FREE. It's impossible to be led by the Spirit and continue to sin/break The Law/commit crimes against God and our fellow human+Beings.

In a nutshell: we are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey.

If we choose to obey God and His Law, then we are His Children, led by the Spirit. There is no other possible way to come to know the ONE TRUE GOD and Christ, Whom God SENT (John 13:16).

If we choose to continue to obey Satan, by continuing in sin, then we are his children, being led by the flesh (human) TO OUR DESTRUCTION.

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast SENT.

 

[Lisa]

Christianity then promotes themselves as "born again" and "led by the Holy Spirit" to continue in open rebellion against Father and His Christ, as if God wants us to disobey Him by hurting each other, destroying our natural surroundings and eventually destroying ourselves. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN"

Of all your ramblings..this stood out..

John‬ ‭3:3-5‬ ‭
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter | New American Standard Bible - NASB 1995 (NASB1995) | Download The Bible App Now

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter

www.bible.com

John‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭
Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 3:7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now

Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

www.bible.com

 

[Lyfe]

@A Freeman

Your answer to overcome sin, live a holy life, and inherit salvation is through the law as all your posts indicate yet the law is merely the knowledge of sin and contains no inherit power to redeem anyone from their corrupted nature and desires. Only Jesus and the holy spirit can do that and if you realize this then you arent going to point anyone back to the law, because all you would get is a bunch of men whos hearts are still bound to sin and predisposed to loving sin who are insufficient in their flesh to live after the law. You ought to be pointing them directly to Christ who frees and delivers one from the power of sin through the holy spirit. Salvation is in Christ and Christ alone and he who has power to make anew and supernaturally regenerate someone in their inner man, not the law. That is why Paul said the former glory(old covenant and the law) has no glory in respect to the new glory(the new covenant and ministration of the holy spirit). God gave us the new covenant so that we may serve him in a newer and better way through the holy spirit.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


You promote the law yet you dont even keep it which would make you the hypocrite.


Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Do you really not understand what that says? It means that if you spend your entire day doing good and yet fail just once then you are just as guilty as a man who spent their entire day in sin and lasciviousness. That is the holiness of the law. This is the perfect immutable holiness of God. You offend in one small area you break the ENTIRE law. You promote and seek to yoke someone to a system that can only condemn them, because there is only GUILT under the law. Lets say you managed to go a whole week with keeping the law perfectly and failed in one point. All that righteousness is now gone and you went a whole week only to offend in ALL areas of the law in just ONE day. As a matter of fact we can only enter into Gods glory with a perfect righteousness anyways which is the perfect righteousness of Christ. You cant add to it and you cant take away from it, because its perfect. If someone is saved they have the perfect righteousness of Christ and it still applies to them even if one stumbles in some areas as it is God not counting trespass against them. It means your righteousness by the law and even the best who strive to keep it is as filthy rags to someone who may stumble here and there yet already has the perfect righteousness imputed to them through Christ. It should cause you great fear and concern to promote a system that someone can only be found as guilty under. You dont keep the law, you habitually break it. If righteousness came from the law then there would have been no need for Christ or the new covenant, because at the end of the day you need the perfect righteousness of Christ to enter into Gods glory. I dont encourage lawlessness. I point people to salvation through Christ and Christ alone which is what we are called to do, because HE is the only one who can set free and empower and transform through the holy ghost. This is what it means to be born again. You dont understand salvation and if you continue to point people back to the law you are pointing them to a system they can only be found guilty before God in, because its as pointed out in scripture you MUST KEEP THE LAW PERFECTLY if it were possible to enter into Gods glory, and if you fail once you are damned. Jesus Christ is the only one who has and can keep the law perfectly. If your looking to the law to save you then God will bring you before him on judgment day and point to everytime you broke the law and you'll be found guilty. The law gives the knowledge of sin, but it does not save or empower or deal with the issue of sin or the sinfulness of the heart of unregenerate man. This was the entire premise of the new covenant. The holy spirit, the blood of Jesus, and adoption as a son or daughter of God.

I wont dispute with you any longer, because between me and other Christians you have been corrected and been given all the scriptures refuting your errors. You can harden your heart and go about promoting the law which as I said hundreds of times you can only be condemned under the old covenant and the law. You don't keep the law and if you went before God and asked him just how many times you sinned today or this week alone he would lay before you every sinful thought, every impure motive, and even every sin you committed without your knowledge and lay it before you and find you to be a guilty TRANSGRESSOR. You would be found guilty as a lawbreaker yet you seek to put everyone under it. It wouldn't just be some small number of sins either. God in his holiness would lay out before you so many sins that it would point out to you two things.

1) God is holier than I could have ever imagined
2) I am a bigger sinner than I ever imagined

It goes back to the point I have continually made.... You will be found guilty. Then who and what will save you? Only Christ and his perfect righteousness.

Christ gives his perfect righteousness freely. You can seek to be righteous before God through the law, but if I am given a choice between that or the perfect righteousness of Christ as my entry to heaven I am choosing Christs perfect righteousness every time compared to your righteousness through the law which is not righteousness at all, it is only God revealing to you just how big of a sinner you actually are. So go to God and pray and ask him how many times you have sinned this past week alone... I promise you he will open your eyes to a world of sins. You'll realize just how dependent you are on Christ and Christ alone to save you from the condemnation that the law brings... You will realize your righteousness has to come from someone or something else despite your best efforts to keep the law. I pray that God would give you understanding, because the law will only condemn you, but if you truly have Christ and been born again by the holy spirit then you have all you need.

 

[Lyfe]

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.


Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

2Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Acts 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Acts 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Acts 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
Acts 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Acts 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Acts 15:31 [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
Acts 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them].

 

[Lyfe]

Paul consented that the law was holy and good, but he also realized it was the very thing that had condemned him before God. He also realized his only hope from certain and absolute condemnation through the law was found in Christ and Christ alone.


Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul realized the same law he had acknowledged as being good and holy had also condemned him before God. Paul was a Pharisee and more qualified to speak on the law than anyone, in fact he claimed to be blameless in it. If Paul through the revelation of God came to acknowledge and see his own condemnation and utter sinfulness through the law then it ought to cause anyone to think twice before they say they keep the law. Anyone who says they keep the law is deceiving themselves and knows not of the matters they speak of. That is why someone needs Christ, because no matter how seemingly righteous one is according to the law they are a sinner and guilty of breaking all of Gods laws just in failing in one point. It can only bring condemnation. If you bring yourself and the law before God and point out to him how you are keeping it then he will open your mind to just how big of a sinner you are according to the same law. If you think an infinitely holy God cannot point out sin in your life think again. In fact it would probably overwhelm you if God began to convict and reveal all the sin you are still guilty of, thereby dismantling any and all naivety of held belief that one keeps the law. This is the folly of someone promoting and encouraging others to the very thing that condemns not only themselves, but others and why ones only hope is in Christ and his freely given perfect righteousness. If someone is born again the work is mostly already done as it is God who delivers a man from the power of sin through the holy spirit and they are clothed by the perfect righteousness of Christ which is required to enter into the glory of God.

 

[Resistor]

Faith without works is nihilism.

 

[Lisa]

Faith without works is nihilism.

Why do you say that? And are you talking about works to be saved or after?

 

[Resistor]

Can you tell me what the point of life is, if it's not to do actions that please the Creator?


This is where Muslims have an edge in my point of view. As they know the answer to that age old question,
"what is the purpose of life?"

I definitely agree there.

For Muslims the point of life is glorifying the creator and trying to alleviate suffering, serving our brothers and sisters.
For Christians the point of life is counting money and showing it off to people (and even openly insulting other people for not having as much money as they do).

 

[Lisa]

For Christians the point of life is counting money and showing it off to people (and even openly insulting other people for not having as much money as they do).

Huh?

 

[Resistor]

Huh?

I call your self-infatuation and self-glorification with your own beliefs as "money" both figuratively and literally. It is a system of money exchange, profit and egotistical indulgence.

 

[Lisa]

I call your self-infatuation and self-glorification with your own beliefs as "money" both figuratively and literally. It is a system of money exchange, profit and egotistical indulgence.

I don’t exchange any money to be saved so I’m not sure what you’re taking about here. I don’t gain money by believing either..just saved by the blood of Jesus.

 

[Resistor]

I don’t exchange any money to be saved so I’m not sure what you’re taking about here. I don’t gain money by believing either..just saved by the blood of Jesus.

No, as I said, believing and belief is itself your currency.
And you are very greedy, very slothful, full of gluttony, full of pride.

 

[Lisa]

No, as I said, believing and belief is itself your currency.
And you are very greedy, very slothful, full of gluttony, full of pride.

Believing is the way to eternal life so you’re not exactly wrong. However it’s a belief in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. The lamb of God who died for our sins.

And you say that because of what?

 

[Tidal]

[Paul] met a ghost. He didn't meet Jesus personally. Sounds like he met a demon when you take into account how much he contradicts the sayings of Jesus. Your god is Paul.

What contradictions?
Paul points out in this verse that people should follow Jesus, not himself, so his credibility seems alright to me..
"One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Cor 1:12/13)