Coronavirus

[illuminatimess]

I just hope it’s not true that you can’t be immune when already infected. That would result in no development of herd immunity. Summa summarum, we’ll be f*%#<d forever.

 

[rainerann]

The difference between "with virus" and "of virus" deaths.

View attachment 35172

You will have a test for anyone who died at any time. You will say "died of herpes" for anyone with herpes virus.

Spoiler: Facts about Covid-19

The median age of the deceased in most countries (including Italy) is over 80 years and only about 1% of the deceased had no serious previous illnesses. The age and risk profile of deaths thus essentially corresponds to normal mortality.
Many media reports of young and healthy people dying from Covid19 have proven to be false upon closer inspection. Many of these people either did not die from Covid19 or they in fact had serious preconditions (such as undiagnosed leukaemia).
An important distinction concerns the question of whether people die with or indeed from coronaviruses. Autopsies show that in many cases the previous illnesses were an important or decisive factor, but the official figures usually do not reflect this.
Thus in order to assess the danger of the disease, the key indicator is not the often mentioned number of test-positive persons and deceased, but the number of persons who actually and unexpectedly develop or die of pneumonia.
The virus test kits used internationally are prone to errors. Several studies have shown that even normal corona viruses can give a false positive result. Moreover, the virus test currently in use has not been clinically validated due to time pressure.

Facts about Covid

Fully referenced facts about Covid-19.

swprs.org

I'm fully and completely aware of what a comorbidity is. Most people over fifty have a past medical and surgical history. however, if you will notice, an excuse has to be given for every location in this article. It’s the pollutions fault in Italy. There are capacity problems in Spain or the people are just really old.

maybe people are just dying from a virus that you can die from that people didn’t have advanced knowledge on how to test and manage. Maybe there is more to learn about this virus, and things will continue going back to normal over time considering this article was written on March 14. Quite frankly, this article is old news and is already showing itself to have minimized this disease process prematurely.

I also really question when it says that autopsies show something different. I question whether there was a large enough number of autopsies to justify a statement like this. In the US, you can't just go around doing autopsies on everyone without permission from their family. Maybe in other places, they have different rules, but in general, I question whether there was a large enough sample to make a statement about autopsy results corroborating anything.

There is also currently no way to know whether you can develop immunity to this or whether anyone that is not developing symptoms is even immune.

When we spoke with him two weeks ago, Santiago told us that BMC briefly ran out of ICU beds during a spike in admissions and homeless patients. He said that is not the case right now, and there are ICU beds open. However, some of those earlier patients are now coming back.

“Over the last week we’ve seen an interesting phenomenon where people who’ve been initially diagnosed a week ago, they’re coming back to the hospital sicker and often requiring a ventilator or the ICU,” Santiago told WBZ. “That just demonstrates how insidious the virus can be.”

'They're Coming Back To The Hospital Sicker': Boston ER Doctor Seeing Repeat Coronavirus Hospitalizations

A Boston emergency room doctor working on the front lines to fight the coronavirus epidemic says his hospital is seeing a new trend.

boston.cbslocal.com

So there is no way to know whether people who have no symptoms don't end up with symptoms at a later time.

In general, I find it hard to take anyone seriously who was claiming they knew everything that needed to be known about a virus that continued to spread the way it has after March 14. I think this was written prematurely and anything forming conclusions at this point is premature.

however, South Korea that is mentioned is one of the locations that I have been following because there are articles saying they have been using oxygen therapies as treatment. I have an interest in hyperbaric and other oxygen treatments in general.

“Jeong said the therapy raises the degree of oxygen saturation in the patient through the delivery of high concentrations of oxygen. The therapy does not require the use of a respirator, the South Korean official said.”

Oxygen therapy working for coronavirus patient, Seoul says - UPI.com

Oxygen therapy has been effective in the treatment of a critically ill patient infected with the new strain of coronavirus in South Korea, local health authorities said Friday.

www.upi.com

So I think your article oversimplifies what is happening worldwide. Places like South Korea is an example of the effectiveness that large scale testing and treatment had on allowing people to live outside of quarantine people. Their outcome was the result of effort and not the absence of one of the other conditions present in Spain or Italy as though in some cases, there is no reason to take this virus as seriously as others. I don't know as much about Japan, but South Korea appears to have had a highly disciplined approach that included treatment, which is exactly what I think we need to be doing. The virus has to be killed and this process has to be treated in order to go back to normal. I have some of my favorite candidates for this, but we will see how it all turns out I guess.

 

[Karlysymon]

In fact, I find it rather believable that some countries would want to conceal how this is affecting them to a certain extent. It is not an easy position to be in for a leader trying to navigate how something like this would affect the economy and the health of the people living in the community. I’m guessing that a large number of deaths doesn’t really lead to high approval ratings as a politician of whatever kind of government you are running either.

So, governments around the world are using this crisis to their benefit. Whether that be large or small numbers of deceased.

This has the potential to bankrupt hospitals in the long run that have shut down many services they provide that actually make money. After doing some thinking about this, I don't know that I think it would be a bad thing for our healthcare system to get smaller.

Given this, and the UK downgrading covid 19, it just might seem that for the UK that's their real goal of bankrupting the NHS. See below.

I'm happy to stick my neck above the parapet here and make a forecast of future events. The reason why the msn are relentlessly pushing the lack of PPE narrative is because it will make the entire country aware that our brave NHS staff, on the front line, at gun point were put an unnecessary risk.

The relatives of all our dead care staff will be taking out multi million pound lawsuits against the health authority which after the huuuuge financial strain of the virus itself, will be blamed for bringing our NHS into a financial crisis......which will be rescued.....by some big company with money.....but that will come with a cost.....to us.

To me this entire psy-op is set up for this result and also to sweep one huge pile of dodgy shite under the carpet (corporate fruad, Brexit etc)

 

[illuminatimess]

So, governments around the world are using this crisis to their benefit. Whether that be large or small numbers of deceased.

That’s for sure. They won’t let it go up the creek without benefiting from this crisis. Cruel

 

[Haich]

Given this, and the UK downgrading covid 19, it just might seem that for the UK that's their real goal of bankrupting the NHS. See below.

10000%

 

[justjess]

10000%

It’s interesting how the same crises can produce different positions depending on where you are in the world. Because in the US it’s causing the opposite. Cost of private health insurance is expected to soar atleast 40% higher next year because insurance companies have taken such a “financial hit”

And the massive amounts of layoffs are exposing bare how absurd it is to have health insurance tied to a persons job.

 

[Haich]

Incompetence or willful ignorance?

Boris Johnson missed five coronavirus Cobra meetings, Michael Gove says

PM missed string of emergency meetings in buildup to crisis, minister concedes

www.theguardian.com

Boris johnson also shipped PPE equipment to China in February, just like Trump.

The five meetings Johnson missed came during a period in late January and February where he spent an entire parliamentary recess out of sight at his official country retreat of Chequers, prompting Labour to accuse him at the time of being a “part-time prime minister”.

 

[Haich]

It’s interesting how the same crises can produce different positions depending on where you are in the world. Because in the US it’s causing the opposite. Cost of private health insurance is expected to soar atleast 40% higher next year because insurance companies have taken such a “financial hit”

And the massive amounts of layoffs are exposing bare how absurd it is to have health insurance tied to a persons job.

Yh I've always found it odd that health insurance is tied to one's job.

I'm actually baffled by the US' healthcare system so it's good to know how this had affected it. The insurance companies get richer and healthcare becomes more profitable. So covid is their dream...

I guess for us context is important. The NHS is free for almost everyone (you pay for medication if you work though) and is paid by the tax payer. Since David Cameron's first reign, he has decimated the public spending on the NHS, Social care, education, emergency services...etc. The tory was has always been austerity=sensible savings for the country.

So we have had 10 years or so of underfunded hospitals and staff at breaking point, a chronic shortage of nurses and health care assistants and no increment in funding. Nurses no longer get a grant to study at university so they work for free during their placements...12 hour shifts that is! Then after 3 years, of paying 9k a year for your course, you start on 21k per year. As a bloody nurse!

Doctors and surgeons are different as they usually have the finances (wealthy backgrounds, middle class) or the odd few get scholarships.

So now, with the NHS on its knees, we are struggling with covid 19. Tories privatised the Royal Mail Service, the trains, pretty much everything. They closed down mines and factories in the north so many of those people rely on benefits to top up their income. It is no secret that Boris and his friends want to, especially after Brexit, sell off the NHS and make deals with The US and The Arabs.

The new Nightingale clinic hospital in East London was funded by The UAE, this is only the beginning.

So I don't think it would be crazy to assume that privatisation is the real reason behind them dragging their feet. They benefit so much and given the financial crisis that is coming, foreign fingers and pockets is what this blonde shit face needs to look even remotely competent to the twats that voted him in.

The irony is, the previously labour held constituents that voted for Boris, in an attempt to leave The EU as they thought the money would be invested in their cities and towns, are the ones affected the most by this lockdown and this virus. What has he done to console and help the public? Nothing.

An Absolute ball of shit is what he is.

 

[Haich]

So many grammar issues and typos lol soz, typing with my kid on my lap.

 

[illuminatimess]

It’s interesting how the same crises can produce different positions depending on where you are in the world. Because in the US it’s causing the opposite. Cost of private health insurance is expected to soar atleast 40% higher next year because insurance companies have taken such a “financial hit”

And the massive amounts of layoffs are exposing bare how absurd it is to have health insurance tied to a persons job.

Lol, insurance companies here fund sports etc and claim they didn’t have money to provide basic drugs. Additionally, several years ago, they introduced a new model of insurance, called „Privatversicherung“ which means people who are wealthy are able to afford better and quicker medical aid in all forms

 

[justjess]

Lol, insurance companies here fund sports etc and claim they didn’t have money to provide basic drugs. Additionally, several years ago, they introduced a new model of insurance, called „Privatversicherung“ which means people who are wealthy are able to afford better and quicker medical aid in all forms

Where is “here”?

 

[rainerann]

So, governments around the world are using this crisis to their benefit. Whether that be large or small numbers of deceased.

Given this, and the UK downgrading covid 19, it just might seem that for the UK that's their real goal of bankrupting the NHS. See below.

I'm thinking that you are trying to lead me somewhere along the lines of saying that this is not a real crisis if it can be said that a government is trying to use some aspect of this to their benefit. That is oversimplifying what I saying and appears to suggest that a world leader and members of a government are not capable of the human experience of fear that could be influencing their message and seeking to control the message that people within their own countries hear.

A contagious respiratory virus is something that is difficult to control even with a good deal of power and money. So there could be a real fear of the loss of power and money based on how many people die and whether the public decides to blame you as a leader or member of the government for the number of people that died. This is more or less along the lines of what I was saying.

I'm also not seeing the connection that you are making to the goal of bankrupting the NHS. I don't see the benefit that this would have or why this would be done intentionally. I don't feel that this has to be done intentionally from the perspective of the US and I guess it would apply to the UK as well. It would just be the natural byproduct of people not working for an extended period of time that I don't think many people realize and that is why I was pointing this out because the working community is paying for the hospital system in some form. Hospitals will not be immune to the same economic challenges at a certain point even though it is considered essential. Essential doesn't mean immune to bankruptcy. That is the only point I was trying to make by pointing this out.

 

[illuminatimess]

Where is “here”?

Germany

 

[justjess]

Germany

You have a dual system jn Germany? Public and private?

 

[illuminatimess]

You have a dual system jn Germany? Public and private?

Yes. Yes, we do, Jess

 

[rainerann]

I thought of replying sentence for sentence that dozens of esteemed, renowned, internationally recognized epidemiologists and statisticians refute what you "think", but at this point there's no reason to. You're one of the most creative posters at this site and I respect your being, but in this case we have to agree to disagree. We're looking at this "pandemic" through totally different lenses. We're not reading the same sources or following the same authors, which is fine.

This is my opinion but we can't control others or make people "see" what we see. That's why it's a gift when we do find those who share our conclusions. We've all made our way to this curious forum, full of varying world-views, and I am content with our differences.

I think you said you weren't into videos as much as reading, but even later if you get the chance I feel Corbett summarizes well what some of us are sensing about the recent tide of events:

I listened to a few minutes of this. The one remark about not noticing an additional 10,000 influenza-like deaths would seem reasonable outside of the reality that we are already at 40,000 in the US. You could say that this number would still be added to the total of influenza-like deaths, but we are entering the noticeable range either way.

The main thing that I have a problem with using this as a counter-argument is that the person compiling all of this expert testimony is doing this to persuade the audience of a more or less political position towards the coronavirus. In my opinion, that is where damage is created by the nonmedical people behind these video compilations of experts.

For about the last ten years, the flu vaccine has been a subject of discussion within healthcare. In many places, healthcare workers are encouraged or required to get these because we work around an at-risk population. You can be contagious for around two days before you start showing symptoms.

The problem with this that is similar to the problem with the coronavirus is that the virus mutates and you only have immunity for a short period of time, so you have to get a new vaccine before the beginning of every flu season. This is an ongoing thing, so it would seem reasonable that the presence of this coronavirus initiates the awareness that what we really need is a treatment because vaccinating rna viruses is a little bit like running on a treadmill. You never really get anywhere.

But the point of putting together videos like this is to gain support for the position opposing shelter in place orders rather than trying to find a real solution to this reality to go forward with. More than likely, this guy looks somewhat young and healthy and doesn't really know this reality. It is already a yearly frustration of mine, and while I understand the inconvenience of this situation for a lot of people. In the grand scheme of things, we need treatment, and if the attention this coronavirus is getting leads to a treatment. It will be well worth it to me.

So the experts who have their statements edited to be included in this video may be experts, but the people putting these videos together are not, and their videos are geared towards political positions rather than what is really best for the advancement of medicine at this point in history.

 

[justjess]

Yes. Yes, we do, Jess

What would you say are the pros/cons of that type of set up?

 

[Haich]

What would you say are the pros/cons of that type of set up?

Good question.

 

[illuminatimess]

What would you say are the pros/cons of that type of set up?

There are plenty pros and cons:
+ you get appointments instantaneously
+ you get single rooms in hospitals
+ you don’t have to pay „extra“ for various treatments

- your annual salary has to +60k
- it becomes more expensive as older you get
- no family insurance (id est every member of your family has to pay separately)
- most companies require advance payment only

And the biggest problem in my eyes is that this leads to division of society. Especially when it comes to your health, there shouldn’t be a division between poor and wealthy. Everyone should be treated equally. This concept basically means that you’re worth less, therefore you’re treated like that

 

[justjess]

There are plenty pros and cons:
+ you get appointments instantaneously
+ you get single rooms in hospitals
+ you don’t have to pay „extra“ for various treatments

- your annual salary has to +60k
- it becomes more expensive as older you get
- no family insurance (id est every member of your family has to pay separately)
- most companies require advance payment only

And the biggest problem in my eyes is that this leads to division of society. Especially when it comes to your health, there shouldn’t be a division between poor and wealthy. Everyone should be treated equally. This concept basically means that you’re worth less, therefore you’re treated like that

So basically people with only public insurance in Germany do not get top quality healthcare but the rich do?

I see many similarities to the US system in that statement. Medical options are severely limited for people who get Medicaid (our only public option and only for the poorest) in many parts of the country (there are some exceptions).

I think of the rehabs that are available with Medicaid - they are like prisons. The rehabs that private insurance pays for, alternatively, are like retreats.

Screwed up all the way around. I will say atleast all your citizens are guaranteed some level of medical care which is an improvement over our system where tons of people make too much to get Medicaid but not enough to afford private insurance.