END TIMES - A thread for all christians

[rainerann]

That I can believe..I don’t think you really ever knew Him...you think you did because you read the Bible and went to a Bible college...but if you didn’t believe Jesus is God..you can’t have known God..which is why you are having so much trouble with real theology..it doesn’t fit what you think Christianity should be.

Lisa, just like you have no authority to talk about the Trinity, you have no authority to say whether I ever knew him or not. I'm sure you would like to believe what you are saying because it protects you and your ego, but there is nothing true in what you are saying at all.

I have seen transformation and change. In other words, I have had plenty of evidence resulting from the faith I have had over the years. As far as I'm concerned, you display a resume of having nothing really to show for your faith. You are a classic bible thumper that uses the Bible as a way to insult and control people because you probably have some unresolved fear of abandonment.

 

[rainerann]

I think you can stop calling yourself a Christian now....

I will call myself a Christian with or without your permission. You have no authority Lisa. You hardly have an understanding of the scripture you promote and frequently add to them whenever it is convenient for you.

 

[Lisa]

Lisa, just like you have no authority to talk about the Trinity, you have no authority to say whether I ever knew him or not. I'm sure you would like to believe what you are saying because it protects you and your ego, but there is nothing true in what you are saying at all.

I have seen transformation and change. In other words, I have had plenty of evidence resulting from the faith I have had over the years. As far as I'm concerned, you display a resume of having nothing really to show for your faith. You are a classic bible thumper that uses the Bible as a way to insult and control people because you probably have some unresolved fear of abandonment.

O..I am very aware that you don’t know God at all..its all in what you say.

I do have authority to talk about the Bible, God and the trinity..I am a Christian..sent here to tell the truth to everyone. God send out us saved to share the Good News..that’s our job.

You think you’ve seen something...however, you have no faith in God because you are looking for proof and disregard the Bible like its not God’s infallible, inspired Word.

What resume do you think I should have? I don’t use the Bible as a way to do anything but to prove to people that it is the Word of God and in it we learn about God and what He want’s for us..without it you are just deceived and leaning on yourself for truth and you shouldn’t because..

Jeremiah‬ ‭17:9‬ ‭
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?​

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

I will call myself a Christian with or without your permission.

Then you lie.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yup, I sure do hope that you get rid of the superstitions you are holding on to that are preventing you from seeing the true landscape of the history concerning the Bible according to the Bible and according to the physical fingerprint of the land.

Believing that the Bible or any book is perfected is superstitious, to begin with. If this were true, there would be no competition over this claim after many centuries. You are supporting ecumenism when you hold on superstitions like this.

It is also hypocritical to assume some magical seal exists on the Bible and not have a reason or explanation for why there are no observable healings that happen in the church with any sort of consistency. You are picking and choosing when to believe in some sort of magical reality instead of looking for when a belief or a statute of truth bears evidence for itself that it is true.

I sure am hoping the scales that are causing this confusion will be removed from your eyes.

OK, let’s come at it the other way...

Which parts of the Bible (if any) do you still believe and why?

What things about Jesus and the nature of salvation are true, and why?

What (and who) do you stand for, @rainerann ?

 

[rainerann]

@Lisa

Basically, what you have really done is make for yourself an idol. There is something real that it is rooted on, but then you added all of the things that were easy for you to accept, assumed these things were right and required, and became comforted with the idea that as long as you hang on to these things. You will be safe from what you perceive as a consequence of disbelieving these things.

What letting go of these things would really mean is going back to the way things were before you believed them. There still wouldn't be a punishment for doing this.

This is because at some point, God did probably breathe into your life. It is understandable to want to protect this, so in protecting this experience, you shielded yourself with a bunch of things that could be within your control. So this or that that you add to the scripture when there is no answer helps you to feel in control. This is probably what a lot of people have done throughout the years.

Everyone does this on an individual level to some degree too, but it is also why getting rid of superstitions is an equally important part of spiritual growth. You presently assume that you are believing correctly because you don't perceive a consequence. This is because there isn't going to be a perceivable consequence for the way that you change along your path of faith. This is because the rules that you have made are empty and a handful of superstitions. It will not make a difference in this life or the next whether you hang on to them or let them go.

And you are kidding yourself if you think that people who say they are Christians are automatically not superstitious. There is so much superstition throughout the church, it should become my next focus of study as a reason for why the church is visibly oppressed in their ability to effect any influence on those around them.

Either way Jacob wrestled with the angel. Remember that, and he was rewarded for doing so. Be careful in making judgments especially when your entire basis for authority is based on the superstition that you have authority because you have followed a set of rules that you made for yourself.

 

[Lisa]

@Lisa

Basically, what you have really done is make for yourself an idol. There is something real that it is rooted on, but then you added all of the things that were easy for you to accept, assumed these things were right and required, and became comforted with the idea that as long as you hang on to these things. You will be safe from what you perceive as a consequence of disbelieving these things.

What letting go of these things would really mean is going back to the way things were before you believed them. There still wouldn't be a punishment for doing this.

This is because at some point, God did probably breathe into your life. It is understandable to want to protect this, so in protecting this experience, you shielded yourself with a bunch of things that could be within your control. So this or that that you add to the scripture when there is no answer helps you to feel in control. This is probably what a lot of people have done throughout the years.

Everyone does this on an individual level to some degree too, but it is also why getting rid of superstitions is an equally important part of spiritual growth. You presently assume that you are believing correctly because you don't perceive a consequence. This is because there isn't going to be a perceivable consequence for the way that you change along your path of faith. This is because the rules that you have made are empty and a handful of superstitions. It will not make a difference in this life or the next whether you hang on to them or let them go.

And you are kidding yourself if you think that people who say they are Christians are automatically not superstitious. There is so much superstition throughout the church, it should become my next focus of study as a reason for why the church is visibly oppressed in their ability to effect any influence on those around them.

Either way Jacob wrestled with the angel. Remember that, and he was rewarded for doing so. Be careful in making judgments especially when your entire basis for authority is based on the superstition that you have authority because you have followed a set of rules that you made for yourself.

What the hey are ya talking about? Now you are ya trying to psychoanalyze me as an excuse to listening to what I am saying to you?

You are the one kidding yourself.

 

[rainerann]

What the hey are ya talking about? Now you are ya trying to psychoanalyze me as an excuse to listening to what I am saying to you?

You are the one kidding yourself.

You have made an idol for yourself. It is just a reality. The rules that you have made for yourself are not requirements that I have to follow. You are kidding yourself if you somehow think you are immune to making an idol for yourself.

This is why someone should not take you seriously. It is blatant arrogance, not discernment.

 

[Lisa]

You have made an idol for yourself. It is just a reality. The rules that you have made for yourself are not requirements that I have to follow. You are kidding yourself if you somehow think you are immune to making an idol for yourself.

This is why someone should not take you seriously. It is blatant arrogance, not discernment.

No one has to take me seriously..but they should take what God says seriously and read His Word. If I am saying what’s in God’s Word..than they should listen to what I say. Its all very simple really. You try to make things complicated so you think you’re the one telling the truth but in reality, you aren’t telling any truths here...just lies and you are deceived and trying to deceive others into believing that somehow after all you’ve just said that you are a Christian.

 

[rainerann]

OK, let’s come at it the other way...

Which parts of the Bible (if any) do you still believe and why?

What things about Jesus and the nature of salvation are true, and why?

What (and who) do you stand for, @rainerann ?

It is not about delineating true and untrue verse by verse. It is about testing it all or refining it with fire you could say. Getting rid of the dross. There is dross in the Bible and this evidenced when it is tested the same way you would pursue conclusions through a peer-reviewed process as an example. The Bible should be tested the way anything else is tested in a peer-reviewed process.

"Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed." Proverbs 15:22

There is a lot that is not holding up unless it is isolated from outside counsel. However, if the church isolates itself from outside communication with the world around it. Then, it becomes cult-like. I feel like some denominations are leaning in the direction of becoming cult-like in their belief.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It is not about delineating true and untrue verse by verse. It is about testing it all or refining it with fire you could say. Getting rid of the dross. There is dross in the Bible and this evidenced when it is tested the same way you would pursue conclusions through a peer-reviewed process as an example. The Bible should be tested the way anything else is tested in a peer-reviewed process.

"Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed." Proverbs 15:22

There is a lot that is not holding up unless it is isolated from outside counsel. However, if the church isolates itself from outside communication with the world around it. Then, it becomes cult-like. I feel like some denominations are leaning in the direction of becoming cult-like in their belief.

Is it your view that the higher critics and their ilk are dispassionate and “commuted to the truth, whenever it may lead” in the conclusions they pursue?

e.g.

Johann Jakob Griesbach - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[rainerann]

No one has to take me seriously..but they should take what God says seriously and read His Word. If I am saying what’s in God’s Word..than they should listen to what I say. Its all very simple really. You try to make things complicated so you think you’re the one telling the truth but in reality, you aren’t telling any truths here...just lies and you are deceived and trying to deceive others into believing that somehow after all you’ve just said that you are a Christian.

I'm not trying to deceive anyone. You are trying to get people to believe something that you have no evidence to support just because you say so. You do not even have the simple evidence of being someone that I would expect to welcome the women that the crowd was ready to stone in the Gospels.

If I were to make fan fiction out of this story, I would place you as someone who would argue with Jesus over wanting to stone this woman because of what she had done, and that the most difficult part of following Jesus during the time of his ministry would have been how often he welcomed the ones that were being rejected by others.

I can't even really picture you following the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels if he were alive today.

 

[rainerann]

Is it your view that the higher critics and their ilk are dispassionate and “commuted to the truth, whenever it may lead” in the conclusions they pursue?

It's not rocket science to determine whether someone is being objective or whether research is thorough. All you have to do is locate where they include counter-arguments. If someone gives you a window to research the opposing claims without having to search for this, they are more than likely presenting something that is objective to the extent that anyone is capable of. Everyone has some degree of bias.

However, if I can be led to the information that I could research further for myself and make my own conclusions, then it is reasonable to assume that someone is not trying to isolate my conclusions to mirror their own.

So it is not about a preference for higher critics. It is a preference for people who are capable of looking at information square in the eye without trying to distort it in order to protect the ego. The church is frequently not able to do this even while it may also be true of higher critics. The church fails 9 times out of ten to create information that is not isolated from other directions of research, causing many people to form conclusions that are more or less cult-like rather than informed.

 

[Lisa]

I'm not trying to deceive anyone. You are trying to get people to believe something that you have no evidence to support just because you say so. You do not even have the simple evidence of being someone that I would expect to welcome the women that the crowd was ready to stone in the Gospels.

If I were to make fan fiction out of this story, I would place you as someone who would argue with Jesus over wanting to stone this woman because of what she had done, and that the most difficult part of following Jesus during the time of his ministry would have been how often he welcomed the ones that were being rejected by others.

I can't even really picture you following the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels if he were alive today.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say by bringing in something that I was not a part of or if I talk about it it would be a hypothetical answer..talk reality.


You forget....Jesus says that there is a narrow gate to enter..you’re gonna have to enter the narrow gate and not the broad one you’ve walked through.

Matthew‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

‭‭

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It's not rocket science to determine whether someone is being objective or whether research is thorough. All you have to do is locate where they include counter-arguments. If someone gives you a window to research the opposing claims without having to search for this, they are more than likely presenting something that is objective to the extent that anyone is capable of. Everyone has some degree of bias.

However, if I can be led to the information that I could research further for myself and make my own conclusions, then it is reasonable to assume that someone is not trying to isolate my conclusions to mirror their own.

So it is not about a preference for higher critics. It is a preference for people who are capable of looking at information square in the eye without trying to distort it in order to protect the ego. The church is frequently not able to do this even while it may also be true of higher critics. The church fails 9 times out of ten to create information that is not isolated from other directions of research, causing many people to form conclusions that are more or less cult-like rather than informed.

In truth, Christians often want to believe and sometimes professional theologians who have no faith do not want to believe. Accordingly, Prof Bill Cooper and Bart Ehrmann come at the question of biblical authenticity from two different routes.

In a similar way for miracles, Hume wielded Occam’s Razor, and C.S. Lewis replied. One did not wish to believe in miracles, one did.

I hope you have noticed that I actually do care about intellectual rigour. I offer that with one caveat though. Much of that kind of debate is based on the idea of providing an instant opinion based on currently available information. Sometimes it takes time - months, years, decades or centuries for the truth to finally come out. That is why the following quote has stayed with me...

“But I must think it is one or the other.'​

​

[Reason]: 'By my father's soul, you must not - until you have some evidence. Can you not remain in doubt?'​

​

[John]: 'I don't know that I have ever tried.'​

​

[Reason]: 'You must learn to, if you are to come far with me. It is not hard to do it. In Eschropolis, indeed, it is impossible, for the people who live there have to give an opinion once a week or once a day, or else Mr. Mammon would soon cut off their food. But out here in the country you can walk all day and all the next day with an unanswered question in your head: you need never speak until you have made up your mind.”​

C.S. Lewis, The Pilgrim's Regress

 

[rainerann]

In truth, Christians often want to believe and sometimes professional theologians who have no faith do not want to believe. Accordingly, Prof Bill Cooper and Bart Ehrmann come at the question of biblical authenticity from two different routes.

They do, because one assumes that commentary on the Bible before the field of scientific exploration of a physical history began, are sufficient counter-arguments and Biblical scholars generally use outdated scholars because the more recent scholarship on the subject deviates from a traditional Protestant view.

Then, there are those who are actually facing the information head-on that is being released about a literal historical view of Biblical accounts.

Then, you have the observers who are picking and choosing what they want to hear based on their own comfort level in their personal experience. It can be scary to face some of these things head-on when you are still dealing with some fear of divine consequence for doing so or some other form of spiritual rejection or consequence.

Once you fully come to terms with a reality where God is love, there is no reason to be afraid of this information or superstitious about it as though it had the power to place a curse on you somehow. Every Christian will struggle for years with a battle to remove external forms of self-protection. Once you fully can understand that only God protects, it is much easier to see the freedom this affords and that Paul was even referring to in scripture.

These things are hard to identify because they manifest as habits or even a single thought that you never realized you were depending on for spiritual security rather than truly depending on Christ even though you were claiming to be doing this all along. It is like you come to Christ covered in thorns and don't want to move for a while, and these thorns are picked out one by one, until one day, you can do all things like it says.

Already people place limits on verses like "I can do all things through Christ," because they don't actually have a comparison for all of the possibilities this would include.

It is just a reality that at this point in history, the church has a lot of baggage that it doesn't need. People in the past may have done the best they could do with the information they had at the time, but if we are provided with more information than this, it shouldn't be ignored because of fear.

So I am completely confident that the one who was with me, in the beginning, is with me now, and will burst forth with me like a rocket at some point, and we will fly away together in perfect fulfillment of His will and purpose for my life. I have no doubt about this.

 

[Vixy]

The vaccine and the chip will be in one. One shot fixes all.

 

[Awoken2]

Ohhhh you fundies gonna luuuuurve this one!!

Looks like the Bible turned out to be an instruction book for the psycopaths after all.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ohhhh you fundies gonna luuuuurve this one!!

Looks like the Bible turned out to be an instruction book for the psycopaths after all.

One of the principles of interior design is that if there is a fixed element in a room e.g. a chimney on a wallyou can try to (perhaps unsuccessfully) cover it up, or you can make it a centrepiece.

I put it to you (as the old school lawyers say) that if the “powers and principalities” you presently dismiss believe Bible prophecies will come to pass, their most likely strategy might be to make it all look like it was planned.

 

[Awoken2]

One of the principles of interior design is that if there is a fixed element in a room e.g. a chimney on a wallyou can try to (perhaps unsuccessfully) cover it up, or you can make it a centrepiece.

I put it to you (as the old school lawyers say) that if the “powers and principalities” you presently dismiss believe Bible prophecies will come to pass, their most likely strategy might be to make it all look like it was planned.

Well, what can I say?

I'll just put it in terms you may understand.

Even a young toddler on his tricycle, when faced with a tree in the middle of the path he is peddling on has the fortitude to peddle around the tree.

The futility in trying to make somebody like yourself believe that bad men are conspiring to bring on bible prophecy is quite apparent.