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One can have a genuine faith where they completely believe without submitting to Christ unto good works. If you think every saved person has good works to prove their salvation, you are wrong.
Did Jesus Abolish the law by fulfilling it?
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phipps
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This is going to be a long response. What you've done is pick verses that don't tell the whole story about Jesus. Put like that, indeed it does appear Jesus is saying He is not God. But is that all the Bible has to say about Jesus being God? There is much more so I'll show you what more the Bible says about Jesus being God.
For starters the Bible tells us that Jesus created this world. He is the creator not a created being. Only God can create.
John 1:1–4, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."
Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Colossians 1:16, “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”
Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).
He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).
The Father even calls Jesus God. “But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8).
Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20-21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).
Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:26–29).
Even the angels worship Jesus. “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” (Hebrews 1:6).
The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’” (John 1:48).
Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10).
He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).
Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, Jesus must be eternal God.
Those verses you posted above show Jesus glorifying the Father. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God according to the Bible. They have equal power and glory. But among the three of the Godhead it appears that the Father is recognized as the ultimate authority. “And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Corinthians 3:23). “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3). The Son constantly receives His glory, power, throne, and prerogatives as Judge from the Father (John 3:35; John 5:22). Indeed, it was God the Father that “gave” the Son. In fact, while it might not be wrong, we are never told to pray to Jesus or the Spirit - but instead to the Father in the name of the Son. Yet just because the Father seems to have supreme authority, it does not in any way diminish from the divinity of Jesus and the Spirit.
Also when Jesus was on earth He was human and had to completely rely on the Father for everything.
God the Father calling Jesus His Son does not mean He is not God as scripture proves.
If you want to read more on this subject here is a link.
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phipps
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Not according to the Bible. They have to have faith and good works as James wrote. Unless one dies immediately after accepting Christ as their personal Saviour like the thief on the cross, that is not most people is it? Can one have genuine faith and be unloving, uncaring, selfish, lack of self control, a thief, a murderer etc? Isn't that knowingly rejecting God's light? Doesn't the Bible warn us not to do that?
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floss
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Do you believe you have enough good works to enter heaven?
So you think every saved Christian are loving, caring, unselfish, self discipline, giving, and never steal anything?
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phipps
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Why do you always do this? Whenever we talk about a subject you think I'm saying I'm perfect. You've accused me of this before. I'm not but this is not about me. Its about God. I am talking about God's truth. God's truth is that those who have faith, who trust and believe in Him, who accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour will prove it by being obedient to Him and it will show in their works. If you are rejecting this truth because you think you can't live up to it, then pray to God to empower you to do so. We can't be obedient as God's Word says we should in our own power. We need God to be completely obedient and He promises us we can if we submit to Him completely. Isaiah 1:19, Matthew 19:26, John 15:5, 2 Corinthians 2:14, Philippians 4:13.
BTW its Satan who makes us doubt ourselves. He makes us think that God’s requests appear unreasonable and that obedience is impossible. God does not ask us to do anything we can't. But we have to completely rely on Him.
floss
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because you're combining sanctification together with justification while you should be separating them. I already knew I'm saved and sealed but it doesn't mean I do whatever I want and disobey God's commandment. It doesn't mean I don't show any goods work to glorified Christ. It doesn't mean I'm unfruitful to the Kingdom. Why do I submit to Christ? It's because I love Him and He's good. It's not because I'm trying to prove to Him why I deserve to be saved. It's the love of God that empowered me to obey Him. Otherwise, you're only obeying Him out of fear of losing your salvation.
So you think every saved Christian are loving, caring, unselfish, self discipline, giving, and never steal anything?
phipps
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I am not mixing anything. Its you who does not understand because you don't want to. I want you to show me proof from the Bible of the claims you're making and I will show where you are going wrong. Whether you like it or not we have to have faith and works. Unless you're saying the Bible is untrue on certain subjects that you don't agree on. That means you pick and choose from the Word of God.
Your doctrine says its okay to sin when saved, it tells you your salvation is guaranteed no matter what. That is not biblical. Arguing with me over and over on this subject will not make you right. As Christians we have to obey and that's that. If we don't and we never repent and stop sinning, you know what will happen at the end. Those scriptures have been shown to you over and over.
If Christians are sinning and we all have, then we pray to God to forgive us and to help us not to fall into temptation again. As we grow in Christ we sin less and less. If we continue doing the same sins over and over then something is very wrong with our faith isn't it? You don't seem to understand that and I don't know if that's intentional or not.
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Tidal
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Whoa, sorry to cut you short but regrettaby I don't have time to read long posts,..
Anyway I'm 100% convinced that Jesus was not God.
PS- will that condemn me to hell?
phipps
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Or you did not have a response because I proved biblically Jesus is God. Your conviction that Jesus is not God is wrong and not biblical. It is clear as daylight that He is God.Whoa, sorry to cut you short but regrettaby I don't have time to read long posts,..
Anyway I'm 100% convinced that Jesus was not God.
PS- will that condemn me to hell?
Only God knows if you will be condemned to hell or not. I don't know you completely, nor did I create you. God bless.
phipps
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God’s standard is obedience
It is important to understand that God demands perfect obedience of everyone. It is because we have disobeyed that we need salvation in the first place. The tiniest sin—even if it’s just eating a fruit that God said not to eat—will cause us to lose eternal life. And if even one tiny transgression will cause us to be lost, then obviously we can say that God requires obedience. We can say that He requires obedience as a condition of eternal life, because Adam and Eve’s one sin cost them their eternal life. And God has not changed His requirements since then.
It looks like salvation by grace alone through faith apart from obedience is out the window—but it is not!
Allow me to introduce you to merit—a word that you hear every now and then in Christian circles. Merit, in the theological sense, is the idea that our good deeds are credited to our account in heaven as “points” toward our salvation. It’s true that our good deeds are recorded in heaven (Malachi 3:16), but some people twist this idea to mean that they must do enough good deeds to offset all their bad deeds. This is precisely the kind of salvation by obedience that the Bible condemns!
Some people claim that the good deeds of genuine Christians count as merit toward their salvation, because those deeds were done through the power of God in their lives. But the Bible is very clear that no amount of good deeds on our part—not even those we do through the power of the Holy Spirit—are ever credited to our account for salvation.
Does our obedience count?
Is obedience a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? Is God sitting up in heaven saying, “As soon as Phipps obeys Me (or at least starts to obey Me), I’ll grant him My salvation”?
The answer is no. Obedience is something we do after we have been saved, not what we do in order to be saved. And the reason is quite simple: While true obedience includes our outward deeds, it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompted it.
A man who refuses to have an affair has obeyed outwardly, but he has not obeyed the way God requires if he harbours sexual lust toward another person in his heart. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). True obedience requires that we care enough about our spouses and others that we don’t even want to have an affair.
Obedience from the heart
Now it happens that unconverted people are able to restrain themselves from committing outward acts such as adultery, lying, and stealing, and we are all glad for it. This kind of self-control makes for a well-ordered society. However, we have not obeyed in the biblical sense unless we have experienced the inner transformation we call “conversion” or the “new birth.” The only obedience that is acceptable to God is that which arises out of a converted mind and heart.
And the point is this: salvation has to happen first, and only then is this kind of obedience possible.
Allow me to use an analogy. Let’s say that I’ve spent a hot summer day working in my yard, and at the end of the day I’m all covered with sweat and dirt. So I go inside to take a shower and clean up. But suppose that the condition for getting in the shower in the first place was that I had to be clean. That wouldn’t make sense! The shower is where I get clean, so being clean can’t be a condition for getting in the shower.
I trust that everyone reading this can agree that in order to be saved a person has to be converted, and conversion, which leads to salvation, is what makes true obedience possible. Unsaved people cannot truly obey God from the heart. Therefore, God can’t require as a condition of salvation that which people can do only after they’ve been saved.
The condition—the basis—of our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people may not be able to obey perfectly, but they will want to obey and they’ll be sorry and ask for forgiveness when they disobey.
And the good news is that Christ’s righteousness covers the sin they just committed, and they stand before God just as if they had not committed that sin.
So the next time you yield to that besetting sin, instead of punishing yourself with guilt and telling yourself that God surely can’t save anyone who’s as bad as you, say this prayer: “God, I confess that I just sinned, but I thank you that Christ’s righteousness covers that sin and I stand perfect in your sight right now.” Of course, you will still want to overcome that sin, so ask God to lead you to victory over that temptation. But you can be assured that Christ’s righteousness covers you every step of the way.
Link
It is important to understand that God demands perfect obedience of everyone. It is because we have disobeyed that we need salvation in the first place. The tiniest sin—even if it’s just eating a fruit that God said not to eat—will cause us to lose eternal life. And if even one tiny transgression will cause us to be lost, then obviously we can say that God requires obedience. We can say that He requires obedience as a condition of eternal life, because Adam and Eve’s one sin cost them their eternal life. And God has not changed His requirements since then.
It looks like salvation by grace alone through faith apart from obedience is out the window—but it is not!
Allow me to introduce you to merit—a word that you hear every now and then in Christian circles. Merit, in the theological sense, is the idea that our good deeds are credited to our account in heaven as “points” toward our salvation. It’s true that our good deeds are recorded in heaven (Malachi 3:16), but some people twist this idea to mean that they must do enough good deeds to offset all their bad deeds. This is precisely the kind of salvation by obedience that the Bible condemns!
Some people claim that the good deeds of genuine Christians count as merit toward their salvation, because those deeds were done through the power of God in their lives. But the Bible is very clear that no amount of good deeds on our part—not even those we do through the power of the Holy Spirit—are ever credited to our account for salvation.
Does our obedience count?
Is obedience a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? Is God sitting up in heaven saying, “As soon as Phipps obeys Me (or at least starts to obey Me), I’ll grant him My salvation”?
The answer is no. Obedience is something we do after we have been saved, not what we do in order to be saved. And the reason is quite simple: While true obedience includes our outward deeds, it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompted it.
A man who refuses to have an affair has obeyed outwardly, but he has not obeyed the way God requires if he harbours sexual lust toward another person in his heart. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). True obedience requires that we care enough about our spouses and others that we don’t even want to have an affair.
Obedience from the heart
Now it happens that unconverted people are able to restrain themselves from committing outward acts such as adultery, lying, and stealing, and we are all glad for it. This kind of self-control makes for a well-ordered society. However, we have not obeyed in the biblical sense unless we have experienced the inner transformation we call “conversion” or the “new birth.” The only obedience that is acceptable to God is that which arises out of a converted mind and heart.
And the point is this: salvation has to happen first, and only then is this kind of obedience possible.
Allow me to use an analogy. Let’s say that I’ve spent a hot summer day working in my yard, and at the end of the day I’m all covered with sweat and dirt. So I go inside to take a shower and clean up. But suppose that the condition for getting in the shower in the first place was that I had to be clean. That wouldn’t make sense! The shower is where I get clean, so being clean can’t be a condition for getting in the shower.
I trust that everyone reading this can agree that in order to be saved a person has to be converted, and conversion, which leads to salvation, is what makes true obedience possible. Unsaved people cannot truly obey God from the heart. Therefore, God can’t require as a condition of salvation that which people can do only after they’ve been saved.
The condition—the basis—of our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people may not be able to obey perfectly, but they will want to obey and they’ll be sorry and ask for forgiveness when they disobey.
And the good news is that Christ’s righteousness covers the sin they just committed, and they stand before God just as if they had not committed that sin.
So the next time you yield to that besetting sin, instead of punishing yourself with guilt and telling yourself that God surely can’t save anyone who’s as bad as you, say this prayer: “God, I confess that I just sinned, but I thank you that Christ’s righteousness covers that sin and I stand perfect in your sight right now.” Of course, you will still want to overcome that sin, so ask God to lead you to victory over that temptation. But you can be assured that Christ’s righteousness covers you every step of the way.
Link
Someday a prophet (Paul) may come along who is able to perform miracles or tell what will happen in the future. Then the prophet may say, “Let’s start worshiping some new gods—some gods that we know nothing about.” If the prophet says this, don’t listen! YHWH your God will be watching to find out whether or not you love him with all your heart and soul. You must be completely faithful to YHWH. Worship and obey only YHWH and do this with fear and trembling, because he rescued you from slavery in Egypt.
If a prophet tells you to disobey YHWH your God and to stop worshiping him, then that prophet is evil and must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 13:1-6
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, YHWH is one. Love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
Mark 12:28-30
(this references Deuteronomy 6:4 which calls to worship YHWH, not Jesus)
You are a heretic and an idolater, a blasphemer against both the Torah and the teachings of Jesus. Throw aside your evil and sadistic pagan idolatry and follow YHWH, don't be afraid of the creator of the heavens and the earth.
Don't be afraid to follow God. You don't need your Jesus idol, it will only prevent you from obtaining truth.
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Daciple
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The fact remains that when something is fulfilled it is no longer binding, the Bible specifically say this, as Paul clearly explains here:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Now people can say whatever they want, they can rely on their incorrect Church Doctrines, Cults and Sects, but the fact remains that if someone has actually truly been Born Again, that they have DIED and have been LOOSED from the Law of Moses, so that they can now be married to Christ, so that they can serve in the NEWNESS of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the Law.
If you are counting yourself under the Law of Moses then you are a debtor to do it ALL, every single one of the 613 Laws, you are now 100% bound to it, and what did Paul just write that the Law produces? It produces the motions of Sins, that work in our members to bring forth fruit of DEATH. What does the Law bring? It brings DEATH, it can not and never has brought Salvation or Life, it was only created for ONE REASON, to expose Sin, period. Those bound under the Law must also be subject to the WRATH that comes from the Law.
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath:
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
The Bible is clear about the point of the Law, which is to make us aware of our Sin. It is also clear that the Law brings Death and Wrath. It is also clear that anyone who subjects themselves to the Law again is BOUND to uphold ALL of it. It is clear even more so that if you are binding yourself under the Law, and break any one of them, you are now GUILTY of ALL OF IT.
If you go re read all of these verses, in context they ALL end up speaking about being FREE from the LAW, that the Law has been ABOLISHED:
2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished
Here Paul explicitly says that the Law of Moses is ABOLISHED.
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
What did I say? That in all of the Context of the previous verses they all speak of the ending of the Law and then they speak of the Law of Liberty, which is FREEDOM from the Law of Moses.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Who is the Promise made to? Those of the Law? Nope, if anyone looks to the Law for Justification, Faith is made Void, the Promise has no effect on them. However when we believe on Christ, His Righteousness is imputed to us and we are Justified before the Lord apart from the Law of Moses.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Jesus has made us free, and in context what did He make us free from? The yoke of bondage that comes from the Law of Moses aka the Law that includes circumcision.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
As I showed before, anyone who chooses to look to the Law for ANY REASON for their Justification, Christ has become of no effect to them, they are 100% bound to uphold the entire Law, and if they break ANY ONE LAW, they are guilty of breaking it ALL and thus stand guilty with NO GRACE given to them and therefore must also heap upon themselves the WRATH of the Law, because they have made Christ no effect to them.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
It is interesting the context of this verse, most of the time when people quote this, they are quoting it in context of speaking about Sin, that a bit of Sin spreads and goes thru the whole. Paul however has quoted this specifically about how WRONG it is to look to the Law for Justification. If you look to just a bit of the Law for Justification, then it has and will spread thru out the whole aspect of it, thus removing you from Grace!!!
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another
Look at that, yet again, in context it is seen that Paul specifically state that we have been called into Liberty, from what? The Law of Moses.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
What is that? Those who are led of the Spirit, which is literally every person who is Born Again, they are what? Not under the Law!!!
James 2:2 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
How does James call us to speak and do as those who are under the Law of Moses? Nope instead he calls us to be as those who are under the Law of Liberty, because as he just laid out, if you break any of the Law of Moses, then you are guilty of it all and have to bare the Wrath of the Law.
If you are Born Again, dont believe the lies that you hear from some of these people caught up in Cults and Sects that want to cause you to doubt your Salvation because of your Works or lack thereof. They are wrong and are lying, and the fact is the Word of God has stated that all of them have fallen from Grace and the Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ has become of no affect to them whatsoever.
Instead believe on Christ for your Righteousness and Justification and you will be in right standing with God. You will eventually produce Good Works, but they wont be of you ( like all of the supposed Good Works of these people who Justify themselves by the Law and Works) they will be of the Spirit and God working in you, therefore you cant take credit or use them for your Justification anyhow, which you wouldnt want to do because you already know that you are Justified by Faith and Faith Alone in Christ.
There will be times when you fail, there will be times when you arent fruitful, if people were honest (which sadly many people on this site can not admit to their failures and project themselves as tho they are perfect when they probably fail the most) they would all say this, and be honest with how often they are not fruitful or failing. Regardless, your failures dont negate the Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ, as long as you believe in the Gospel you are Justified period.
I believe that every Born Again Christian DOES produce Good Fruits, and Good Works, God created us and saved us FOR that Purpose, but again the fact is we all Fail, we all Stumble, we all have times of Fruitlessness. However God is still there, you didnt lose your Salvation because you are struggling in Faith, struggling in your Failures, struggling in your Faults. Their False Gospel offers no hope, no refugee, no safety, but thank God for the True Gospel, which is found only in Faith in Christ. Christ who literally died for you while you were His enemy, who still bares with you in your Faults and Failures, who never leaves you, who wont Forsake you, who did away with the Law of Moses so that you dont have to face its Wrath and instead has put you under the Law of Liberty. Praise His name, He is a Good God, who loves us and cares for us and will always be there no matter what. Your Justification is in Him Alone, thank God because if it was of anything else, you would face Wrath and Hell...
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Now people can say whatever they want, they can rely on their incorrect Church Doctrines, Cults and Sects, but the fact remains that if someone has actually truly been Born Again, that they have DIED and have been LOOSED from the Law of Moses, so that they can now be married to Christ, so that they can serve in the NEWNESS of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the Law.
If you are counting yourself under the Law of Moses then you are a debtor to do it ALL, every single one of the 613 Laws, you are now 100% bound to it, and what did Paul just write that the Law produces? It produces the motions of Sins, that work in our members to bring forth fruit of DEATH. What does the Law bring? It brings DEATH, it can not and never has brought Salvation or Life, it was only created for ONE REASON, to expose Sin, period. Those bound under the Law must also be subject to the WRATH that comes from the Law.
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath:
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
The Bible is clear about the point of the Law, which is to make us aware of our Sin. It is also clear that the Law brings Death and Wrath. It is also clear that anyone who subjects themselves to the Law again is BOUND to uphold ALL of it. It is clear even more so that if you are binding yourself under the Law, and break any one of them, you are now GUILTY of ALL OF IT.
If you go re read all of these verses, in context they ALL end up speaking about being FREE from the LAW, that the Law has been ABOLISHED:
2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished
Here Paul explicitly says that the Law of Moses is ABOLISHED.
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
What did I say? That in all of the Context of the previous verses they all speak of the ending of the Law and then they speak of the Law of Liberty, which is FREEDOM from the Law of Moses.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Who is the Promise made to? Those of the Law? Nope, if anyone looks to the Law for Justification, Faith is made Void, the Promise has no effect on them. However when we believe on Christ, His Righteousness is imputed to us and we are Justified before the Lord apart from the Law of Moses.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Jesus has made us free, and in context what did He make us free from? The yoke of bondage that comes from the Law of Moses aka the Law that includes circumcision.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
As I showed before, anyone who chooses to look to the Law for ANY REASON for their Justification, Christ has become of no effect to them, they are 100% bound to uphold the entire Law, and if they break ANY ONE LAW, they are guilty of breaking it ALL and thus stand guilty with NO GRACE given to them and therefore must also heap upon themselves the WRATH of the Law, because they have made Christ no effect to them.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
It is interesting the context of this verse, most of the time when people quote this, they are quoting it in context of speaking about Sin, that a bit of Sin spreads and goes thru the whole. Paul however has quoted this specifically about how WRONG it is to look to the Law for Justification. If you look to just a bit of the Law for Justification, then it has and will spread thru out the whole aspect of it, thus removing you from Grace!!!
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another
Look at that, yet again, in context it is seen that Paul specifically state that we have been called into Liberty, from what? The Law of Moses.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
What is that? Those who are led of the Spirit, which is literally every person who is Born Again, they are what? Not under the Law!!!
James 2:2 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
How does James call us to speak and do as those who are under the Law of Moses? Nope instead he calls us to be as those who are under the Law of Liberty, because as he just laid out, if you break any of the Law of Moses, then you are guilty of it all and have to bare the Wrath of the Law.
If you are Born Again, dont believe the lies that you hear from some of these people caught up in Cults and Sects that want to cause you to doubt your Salvation because of your Works or lack thereof. They are wrong and are lying, and the fact is the Word of God has stated that all of them have fallen from Grace and the Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ has become of no affect to them whatsoever.
Instead believe on Christ for your Righteousness and Justification and you will be in right standing with God. You will eventually produce Good Works, but they wont be of you ( like all of the supposed Good Works of these people who Justify themselves by the Law and Works) they will be of the Spirit and God working in you, therefore you cant take credit or use them for your Justification anyhow, which you wouldnt want to do because you already know that you are Justified by Faith and Faith Alone in Christ.
There will be times when you fail, there will be times when you arent fruitful, if people were honest (which sadly many people on this site can not admit to their failures and project themselves as tho they are perfect when they probably fail the most) they would all say this, and be honest with how often they are not fruitful or failing. Regardless, your failures dont negate the Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ, as long as you believe in the Gospel you are Justified period.
I believe that every Born Again Christian DOES produce Good Fruits, and Good Works, God created us and saved us FOR that Purpose, but again the fact is we all Fail, we all Stumble, we all have times of Fruitlessness. However God is still there, you didnt lose your Salvation because you are struggling in Faith, struggling in your Failures, struggling in your Faults. Their False Gospel offers no hope, no refugee, no safety, but thank God for the True Gospel, which is found only in Faith in Christ. Christ who literally died for you while you were His enemy, who still bares with you in your Faults and Failures, who never leaves you, who wont Forsake you, who did away with the Law of Moses so that you dont have to face its Wrath and instead has put you under the Law of Liberty. Praise His name, He is a Good God, who loves us and cares for us and will always be there no matter what. Your Justification is in Him Alone, thank God because if it was of anything else, you would face Wrath and Hell...
phipps
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When I believe God requires a certain thing, should I obey even though I do not understand why He requires it?
Jeremiah 38:20, “Please, obey the voice of the LORD. ... So it shall be well with you, and your soul shall live.”
Proverbs 28:26, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool.”
Psalm 118:8, “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.”
Isaiah 55:9, “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.”
Romans 11:33, 34, “How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! ‘For who has known the mind of the LORD?’ ”
Isaiah 42:16, “I will lead them in paths they have not known.”
Psalm 16:11, “You will show me the path of life.”
Most assuredly! We must give God credit for being wise enough to require some things of us that we might not understand. Good children obey their parents even when the reasons for their commands are not clear. Simple faith and trust in God will cause us to believe that He knows what is best for us and that He will never lead us down a wrong path. It is folly for us, in our ignorance, to distrust God’s leadership even when we don’t fully understand all His reasons.
Jeremiah 38:20, “Please, obey the voice of the LORD. ... So it shall be well with you, and your soul shall live.”
Proverbs 28:26, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool.”
Psalm 118:8, “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.”
Isaiah 55:9, “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.”
Romans 11:33, 34, “How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! ‘For who has known the mind of the LORD?’ ”
Isaiah 42:16, “I will lead them in paths they have not known.”
Psalm 16:11, “You will show me the path of life.”
Most assuredly! We must give God credit for being wise enough to require some things of us that we might not understand. Good children obey their parents even when the reasons for their commands are not clear. Simple faith and trust in God will cause us to believe that He knows what is best for us and that He will never lead us down a wrong path. It is folly for us, in our ignorance, to distrust God’s leadership even when we don’t fully understand all His reasons.
phipps
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When a person discovers new truth, shouldn’t he or she wait until all obstacles are removed before embracing it?
John 12:35, “Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you.”
Psalm 119:60, “I made haste, and did not delay to keep Your commandments.”
Matthew 6:33, “Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.”
No. Once you are clear on a Bible truth, it is never good to wait. Procrastination is a dangerous trap. It seems so harmless to wait, but the Bible teaches that unless a person acts immediately upon light, it quickly turns to darkness. Obstacles to obedience are not removed while we stand and wait; instead, they usually increase in size. Man says to God, “Open up the way, and I’ll go forward." But God’s way is just the opposite. He says, “You go forward, and I will open up the way.”
John 12:35, “Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you.”
Psalm 119:60, “I made haste, and did not delay to keep Your commandments.”
Matthew 6:33, “Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.”
No. Once you are clear on a Bible truth, it is never good to wait. Procrastination is a dangerous trap. It seems so harmless to wait, but the Bible teaches that unless a person acts immediately upon light, it quickly turns to darkness. Obstacles to obedience are not removed while we stand and wait; instead, they usually increase in size. Man says to God, “Open up the way, and I’ll go forward." But God’s way is just the opposite. He says, “You go forward, and I will open up the way.”
Tidal
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Funny, I could say the same thing about the following verses that show clear as daylight that Jesus WAS God..
I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
"I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"I am going to my Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17)
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)
And of course God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)
And for good measure here's an interesting dialogue; note that when Simon Peter says "you're the Son of God", Jesus doesn't say "wrong, try again"..
"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven" (Matt 16:13-17)
Red Sky at Morning
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What Grounds Are There for Claiming, from the Texts, That Jesus Is God Incarnate?
My faith in Jesus as the incarnate Son of God does not rest on the verses in the Gospels making this claim. It goes much deeper, in fact way back to the very important question about how first-century Jews understood God and God’s action in the world. And, of course, as Jews they went back to the Psalms, to Isaiah, to Deuteronomy, to Genesis, and so on. And we can see, in the Jewish traditions of Jesus’s day, how they interpreted these.
They talk about the one God who has made the world, who is also the God of Israel, and they talk about this God as active within the world, present and doing things within the world and within Israel. And they talk about this in five ways (nothing to do with Aquinas’s Five Ways!).
They talk about the Word of God: God spoke and it was done; God said, “Let there light,” and there was light. The Word of God is living and active, and in Isaiah we have the very powerful image of the Word coming down like rain or snow and doing things in the world.
They talk about the wisdom of God. We see this in Proverbs, of course, particularly, but in several other passages as well. Wisdom becomes almost a personification, if you like, of God’s “second self.” Wisdom is active in the world, dwelling in Israel, and doing things that help human beings themselves to be wise.
They talk about the glory of God dwelling in the Temple. We must never forget that for Jews in the first century the Temple was, so to speak, an incarnational symbol—they really did believe that the Creator of the universe had promised to come and make his home in this building just down the road in Jerusalem. Until you actually go to Jerusalem and think about that, you don’t really realize it. But it’s quite extraordinary.
Then, of course, they talk about the law of God, which is perfect and revives the soul (as in Psalm 19). The law, like wisdom, is not just a written law. It is an ontologically existing force and presence through which God makes himself known.
And, then, finally they talk about the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God rushes upon Samson in the book of Judges; the Spirit of God enables the prophets to be prophets; the Spirit of God indwells humans so that they can do extraordinary things for God’s glory.
These five ways of speaking about God’s action in the world were all ways in which first-century Jews expressed their belief that the One they knew as the Eternal God, the Creator of the world, was present and active within the world and particularly within Israel. And you can see this all over, not just in the Old Testament, but in the footprint that the Old Testament leaves in first-century Judaism, the rabbis, and the Dead Sea Scrolls and other similar texts.
Now when we come to the Gospels with those five ways of speaking in our heads, we discover Jesus behaving—not just talking, but behaving—as if somehow those five ways are coming true in a new manner in what he is doing. In particular, we see this in the parable of the sower. The sower sows the Word, and the Word does its own work. But, wait a minute, who is going around doing this teaching? It is Jesus himself.
NT Wright in conversation with Anthony Flew ~ There is a God
My faith in Jesus as the incarnate Son of God does not rest on the verses in the Gospels making this claim. It goes much deeper, in fact way back to the very important question about how first-century Jews understood God and God’s action in the world. And, of course, as Jews they went back to the Psalms, to Isaiah, to Deuteronomy, to Genesis, and so on. And we can see, in the Jewish traditions of Jesus’s day, how they interpreted these.
They talk about the one God who has made the world, who is also the God of Israel, and they talk about this God as active within the world, present and doing things within the world and within Israel. And they talk about this in five ways (nothing to do with Aquinas’s Five Ways!).
They talk about the Word of God: God spoke and it was done; God said, “Let there light,” and there was light. The Word of God is living and active, and in Isaiah we have the very powerful image of the Word coming down like rain or snow and doing things in the world.
They talk about the wisdom of God. We see this in Proverbs, of course, particularly, but in several other passages as well. Wisdom becomes almost a personification, if you like, of God’s “second self.” Wisdom is active in the world, dwelling in Israel, and doing things that help human beings themselves to be wise.
They talk about the glory of God dwelling in the Temple. We must never forget that for Jews in the first century the Temple was, so to speak, an incarnational symbol—they really did believe that the Creator of the universe had promised to come and make his home in this building just down the road in Jerusalem. Until you actually go to Jerusalem and think about that, you don’t really realize it. But it’s quite extraordinary.
Then, of course, they talk about the law of God, which is perfect and revives the soul (as in Psalm 19). The law, like wisdom, is not just a written law. It is an ontologically existing force and presence through which God makes himself known.
And, then, finally they talk about the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God rushes upon Samson in the book of Judges; the Spirit of God enables the prophets to be prophets; the Spirit of God indwells humans so that they can do extraordinary things for God’s glory.
These five ways of speaking about God’s action in the world were all ways in which first-century Jews expressed their belief that the One they knew as the Eternal God, the Creator of the world, was present and active within the world and particularly within Israel. And you can see this all over, not just in the Old Testament, but in the footprint that the Old Testament leaves in first-century Judaism, the rabbis, and the Dead Sea Scrolls and other similar texts.
Now when we come to the Gospels with those five ways of speaking in our heads, we discover Jesus behaving—not just talking, but behaving—as if somehow those five ways are coming true in a new manner in what he is doing. In particular, we see this in the parable of the sower. The sower sows the Word, and the Word does its own work. But, wait a minute, who is going around doing this teaching? It is Jesus himself.
NT Wright in conversation with Anthony Flew ~ There is a God
Tidal
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Incidentally, regarding "good works", can anybody tell us what that means exactly?
If it means getting out into the world and doing good charity stuff etc, why do monks shut themselves away in monasteries all their life without interacting with the world?
If it means getting out into the world and doing good charity stuff etc, why do monks shut themselves away in monasteries all their life without interacting with the world?
phipps
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I explained about the Trinity and why Jesus always refers to the Father as above Him even though He is God Himself. Its clear you don't understand that point and haven't read all or most scripture on the subject. I always point out that whenever we study the Bible we have to study all the scripture on a specific subject all over the Bible because its not all written in one place. You are clearly picking and choosing scripture that agrees with your false belief. Its not a hard subject but its needs study and you need to study all the scripture in the Bible about Jesus and about the God head/Trinity to understand. Its important to pray before we study God's Word too. If and when you do, you will see that you're very wrong. Jesus is God and that's that whether you accept it or not.Funny, I could say the same thing about the following verses that show clear as daylight that Jesus WAS God..
I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
"I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"I am going to my Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17)
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)
And of course God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)
And for good measure here's an interesting dialogue; note that when Simon Peter says "you're the Son of God", Jesus doesn't say "wrong, try again"..
"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven" (Matt 16:13-17)
phipps
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Good works according to the Bible are the outer actions that prove we are saved.
Ephesians 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
When we are saved, we are faithful, we love God and His law is written in our hearts and so we naturally do good works. Good works are the fruit (result) of salvation. Salvation is empowering.
We are not supposed to shut ourselves away like monks do. We are supposed to use the gifts God gave us to serve Him. We can't do that by shutting ourselves away.
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Tidal
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Jesus said he WASN'T God, and God said he's his SON, so what more "studying" does anybody need to understand that?
Here, now argue it out with John too if you like..
-John the Baptist said- "For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands" (John 3:34-35)
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