Did Jesus Abolish the law by fulfilling it?

A Freeman

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How is it double speak...we aren’t saved by the law but by grace through faith. Why would we then have to go back to the law if we weren’t saved by it?
Did you not say that once we're supposedly saved we don't have to obey The Law, but that isn't a license to sin/break The Law?

Can you really not see that is a self-contradictory statement please?

If you are saved by grace through faith...why once your saved do you have to obey the law when you couldn’t obey it in the first place? That’s not a license to sin though.
Paul tells us that we are all being sanctified...that doesn’t include being beholden to the law, we can’t keep the law anyway..
So, in your mind, Paul is teaching we're incapable of controlling ourselves from lying, cheating, stealing, committing adultery, raping, molesting children and murdering one another? Do you understand what the word "sanctified" means please?
 
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A Freeman

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Revelation 14:12, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

When it comes to the Law, like all other subjects in the Bible, we've only just scratched the surface. We don't fully understand what it means and stands for but God has revealed a lot in His Word. There is not doubt about it, being a Christian means we have to obey God's commandments. All of them (including the sabbath one) just as Christ did. Not only did Christ obey, He made it very clear we too have to obey the commandments.

Throughout His ministry Jesus taught the importance of God’s commandments. Christ said, “If you want to enter into [eternal] life, keep the commandments.” He made sure everyone knew He meant the 10 Commandments by naming several of them in this passage of Scripture (Matthew 19:16-19).

After His death and resurrection, the apostles also taught the necessity of keeping the commandments. John stated that keeping God’s law is one of the identifying characteristics of a Christian. “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:3-4).

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus upheld the commandments and magnified their application and intent. Understanding the commandments and obeying them is the basis for a relationship with Christ. It begins with repentance and accepting Christ as Saviour. Repentance means understanding that we have done wrong and that we are truly sorry for having broken God’s laws. Paul said that having knowledge of the commandments brings an awareness of what sin is (Romans 7:7). The apostle John defines sin as breaking or not keeping the commandments (1 John 3:4).

Jesus said, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19). Meaning those who persist in lawbreaking and teach others to break God’s law will not be in the Kingdom of heaven at all. Jesus makes it very clear in His Word that those who follow Him and hope to make it to His Kingdom, have to obey and uphold God’s law.

I will end with a hymn I grew up singing called Trust and obey. Part of the lyrics say, "there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey." We are happy when we do God's will. Happy Sabbath to all.
Wouldn't breaking the First Commandment - by making a false god out of the pagan trinity (or falsely claiming that Jesus was God) - not be breaking the Commandments?

Hope you have a good Sabbath too.
 

Lisa

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Did you not say that once we're supposedly saved we don't have to obey The Law, but that isn't a license to sin/break The Law?
No I said that Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We are now under grace through faith..we don’t have to obey the law in ourselves for salvation...it was already done for us. So because it was already done for us, why would we have to go back to trying to obey the law ourselves?


So, in your mind, Paul is teaching we're incapable of controlling ourselves from lying, cheating, stealing, committing adultery, raping, molesting children and murdering one another? Do you understand what the word "sanctified" means please?
Without the help of God can you stop sinning? You must realize that scripture says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
 

phipps

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Wouldn't breaking the First Commandment - by making a false god out of the pagan trinity (or falsely claiming that Jesus was God) - not be breaking the Commandments?

Hope you have a good Sabbath too.
No. Have you forgotten that its God who gave us the ten commandments? But its also Him who told us about the Godhead in His Word? There is One God, three persons according to the Bible. Meaning they are completely unified in everything they do in their different roles. They have the same faith, the same mind, the same goal ...and so on. That's what makes them one. The apostle John wrote, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1 John 5:7).

In the Bible there are many different names for God but the word "Elohim" is a Hebrew plural word that was used in the Bible to describe the three separate persons in the Godhead. It was used in Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” This word "Us" tells us that it was more than one Divine being that created man. After man sinned God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”(Genesis 3:22). All throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation you will find the teaching of God being a Triune God. The Angels say, "Holy, Holy, Holy" for each member of the Godhead in Isaiah 6.

In the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him" (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days who is, obviously, God the Father.

A Jesus' baptism all three persons of the Godhead were present at Jesus' baptism (
Matthew 3:13-17). When Christ, God the son, came out of the water at His baptism, God the Father spoke and said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The Holy Spirit descended in the Form of a Dove too. So the three distinct Persons that make up God were all present. When we get baptised, we are to be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded it. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

In the New Testament Paul and other apostles frequently referred to the three separate persons of the Godhead. There is plenty of scripture on the Godhead in the Bible. Its not a subject we fully understand but I trust God and what He has revealed to us in His Word about who He is. I choose to believe Him over anyone who denies what the Bible says.

One of the reasons I chose not to respond to most of your posts is because you don't have one faith. The Bible says, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5). You have other faiths that are not to do with the God of the Bible. You believe in other gods that contradict the God of the bible. That is the very definition of having other gods before God as the first commandment says. You mix and match your faiths to suit your beliefs. How can you understand God when you are all over the place with your beliefs?

I don't intend on responding to any replies from you unless miraculously you agree with God's word as is.

Thanks for wishing me a good Sabbath though. It is good.
 
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A Freeman

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No I said that Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We are now under grace through faith..we don’t have to obey the law in ourselves for salvation...it was already done for us. So because it was already done for us, why would we have to go back to trying to obey the law ourselves?
You're being dishonest Lisa. This is what you said:-

If you are saved by grace through faith...why once your saved do you have to obey the law when you couldn’t obey it in the first place? That’s not a license to sin though.
Sinning = breaking The Law = committing a criminal act against another

You can't claim on the one hand that you don't have to obey The Law while on the other hand claiming that isn't a license to to disobey The Law.

Do you not realize that your belief system is predicated upon nothing but lies please?

For the term "fulfill" (pleroo in the original Greek) to mean what you want it to mean, you are calling Christ a liar and rendering His own words as self-contradictory as your own. Basically you are choosing to interpret Matt. 5:17-18 in the following way (paraphrased, with your misunderstanding of the term "fulfill"):-

Think NOT that I came to destroy The Law; I did NOT come to destroy The Law...but I did come to destroy The Law???...even though heaven and Earth will pass away before The Law does.

Utter nonsense.

Christ came to fully preach The Law (pleroo) and to fulfill the prophecies concerning His Coming in the body of Jesus. He did NOT come to give us all a "get out of jail free" card. Christ also came to destroy sin/the works of the devil/breaking The Law, NOT the other way around, as you are advocating.

You are also choosing to redefine what the term "grace" means, as if it now means God graciously wants us to disobey Him, so our CHANGELESS God apparently changed His Mind according to your belief system, and then did away with His Own Law, so we could commit whatever evil we want to against each other and our natural surroundings and just say "put it on Jesus' tab".

So, in a nutshell, you've redefined "grace" to mean a license to sin, after just claiming that isn't what you're doing. And somehow deluding yourself into thinking you are showing "faith" in God by pretending it's okay to disobey His Law/Commandments.

THIS is God's Grace: He gave us His PERFECT Law to protect us from evil (sin) and to set and keep us FREE. He promised to bless us and our offspring and our livestock and everything we set our hands to IF we obeyed Him and didn't commit crimes against one another, keeping and administering His Commandments, Statutes and Judgments ONLY, so that there would be true freedom, justice, peace, prosperity, safety and security for all.

When we stumbled and failed, God sent His Messengers/Prophets to help get us back on track, ALL of whom conveyed a very simple and consistent message: obey God and His Law ONLY. If everyone did that, there would be no injustice, no oppression, no poverty, and no crime.

God then sent His Firstborn SON (The Christ), to redeem us from our bondage to sin and death by His Sacrifice, to give us yet another opportunity to come to our senses and listen to and obey Him ONLY. Of course God promised His Guidance and Assistance in that endeavor to anyone who was willing to draw closer to Him (sanctify themselves, strive for righteousness), but they needed to do so with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength.

So yes, we have all been living the past 2000 years under a grace period -- to see if we actually appreciate Christ's Sacrifice and will turn from our sinful/evil/criminal ways -- or whether we will continue listening to Satan and remain in bondage to sin. But that grace period is almost up.

THIS is Faith (trust in God): believing that God knows better than all of us; that He says what He means and means what He says; that His Law/Commandments are holy, just and good and keeping them is NOT grievous; and that IF we do as we've been COMMANDED to do for our own benefit, we will come to know Him, and be helping Him build HIS Kingdom here on Earth. Faith is knowing that no matter what happens, no matter how dark this world gets (and it is already very dark right now), no matter what may personally befall us, as long as we strive to do His Will -- which BEGINS with keeping His Law -- God will protect us, guide us and ultimately deliver us through His Firstborn Son during His (Christ's) Second Coming. There's no way to draw closer to God and to get to KNOW Him and His Firstborn Son (Christ) without showing one's faith BY their good, lawful works (James 2:17-26).

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

Without the help of God can you stop sinning?
Who said that? Of course we need God's Help with EVERYTHING. And that's exactly why each and every one of us (our true, spiritual selves) ave capable of keeping The Law, because WITH God ALL things ARE possible (Matt. 19:26).

You must realize that scripture says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Of course. And that's exactly why this insane rebellion against God NEEDS to stop to put an end to all of this evil. Anyone who refuses to stop sinning/breaking The Law/committing crimes/doing evil will face The Fire on Judgment Day. BE Perfect, as our Father in Heaven IS Perfect.
 

Lisa

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You're being dishonest Lisa. This is what you said:-
Was I? I basically said the same thing. We aren’t saved by works and since we couldn’t obey the law in the first place why are we having to obey the law when we are saved? We instead are being sanctified having been justified by Jesus fulfilling the law.
‭‭
Utter nonsense. Christ came to fully preach The Law (pleroo) and to fulfill the prophecies concerning His Coming in the body of Jesus. He did NOT come to give us all a "get out of jail free" card.
Whats grace? As in saved by grace through faith in Jesus?

1grace
noun
\ˈgrās\
1a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their sanctification


THIS is God's Grace: He gave us His PERFECT Law to protect us from evil (sin) and to set and keep us FREE.
No the law was the tutor to show us we needed Jesus to save us.
Galatians‬ ‭3:24-26‬ ‭
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.​


‭‭
and be helping Him build HIS Kingdom here on Earth
What specifically does this mean?


which BEGINS with keeping His Law
Romans‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​
‭‭


Who said that? Of course we need God's Help with EVERYTHING. And that's exactly why each and every one of us (our true, spiritual selves) ave capable of keeping The Law, because WITH God ALL things ARE possible (Matt. 19:26).
Jesus didn’t fulfill the law so He could help you keep it. Jesus fulfilled the law so you could be justified through Him.

Romans‬ ‭3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​
‭‭

Of course. And that's exactly why this insane rebellion against God NEEDS to stop to put an end to all of this evil. Anyone who refuses to stop sinning/breaking The Law/committing crimes/doing evil will face The Fire on Judgment Day. BE Perfect, as our Father in Heaven IS Perfect.
It’s all grace and faith now.
Ephesians‬ ‭2:4-9‬ ‭
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​
‭‭
Whatever works we are to do are by God’s will...
Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​
‭‭

But first one must
Acts‬ ‭16:31‬ ‭
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”​
‭‭
 

A Freeman

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Nov 11, 2019
Messages
8,329
No. Have you forgotten that its God who gave us the ten commandments?
Of course not. There is but ONE God--UNDIVIDED--Whose Name is the "I AM".

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The "I AM" our God [is] one "I AM":

Zechariah 14:9 And the "I AM" shall be King over all the earth: in that Day shall there be one "I AM", and His name One [not a trinity].

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

But its also Him who told us about the Godhead in His Word? There is One God, three persons according to the Bible. Meaning they are completely unified in everything they do in their different roles. They have the same faith, the same mind, the same goal ...and so on. That's what makes them one. The apostle John wrote, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1 John 5:7).
Do you realize that the apostle John did NOT write the phrase (referred to as the "Johannine Comma") that you just cited please? It was, in fact, ADDED to the Bible by the Roman Catholic church over 1000 years after John passed away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannine_Comma

http://www.trinitytruth.org/was1john5_7addedtext.html


This is what the passage looks like after the addition of the “Johannine Comma” (boldfaced) in the 15th century A.D.:

1 John 5:6-8
5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth.
5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are as one.
5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And this is how the passage read when John wrote it in the 1st century A.D., according to the original Greek manuscripts:

1 John 5:6-8
5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth.
5:7 For there are three that bear record,
5:8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

In the Bible there are many different names for God but the word "Elohim" is a Hebrew plural word that was used in the Bible to describe the three separate persons in the Godhead. It was used in Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” This word "Us" tells us that it was more than one Divine being that created man. After man sinned God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”(Genesis 3:22). All throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation you will find the teaching of God being a Triune God. The Angels say, "Holy, Holy, Holy" for each member of the Godhead in Isaiah 6.
None of those references have anything to do with a 3=1 nonsensical deity. They are a very simple way for Father (God) to describe Himself and His Sons/Angels in Heaven.

In the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him" (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days who is, obviously, God the Father.
And yet with such clear cut evidence that Father and Son are two SEPARATE individuals by your own admission, you are still trying to con others into thinking they are really one? ONE MEANS ONE, just as two means two, and three means three, etc. A Father is NEVER the same as the Son, or the terms wouldn't apply. A Son is clearly the OFFSPRING/CREATION of His Father, by definition, just as a Father is the Progenitor/Creator of His Son. Christ is God's FIRSTBORN SON, i.e. the BEGINNING of Father's Creation, exactly as it says. And Christ has MANY (billions) of siblings (younger brothers).

Colossians 1:12-15

1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into The Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image of THE invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among MANY brethren.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the community of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

A Jesus' baptism all three persons of the Godhead were present at Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:13-17). When Christ, God the son, came out of the water at His baptism, God the Father spoke and said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The Holy Spirit descended in the Form of a Dove too. So the three distinct Persons that make up God were all present. When we get baptised, we are to be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded it. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).
Matthew 28:19 was, like 1 John 5:7-8, very obviously tampered with by the Roman Catholic church.


Here is the verse in its original form and in context:

Matthew 28:18-20
28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them with the Holy Spirit: in my name (The Saviour),
28:20 Instructing them to observe (and DO) all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, [even] unto the end of the world (age).

How can we be absolutely certain that the trinitarian nonsense wasn't in the original Greek version of Matthew 28:19? Because it would mean all of the disciples directly disobeyed Christ, as NONE of them baptized anyone in the name of the trinity. They all baptized in the name of Jesus, which mean "Saviour".

In the New Testament Paul and other apostles frequently referred to the three separate persons of the Godhead.
And yet NONE of them ever refer to a "trinity" by name or by inference, nor do any of them ever baptize in the name of the pagan trinity.

There is plenty of scripture on the Godhead in the Bible.
And yet nowhere in Scripture does it define God as a 3=1 deity, nor are there any references to the word "trinity", "3 in 1", "1 in 3", "God the Son", or "God the Holy Spirit".

Its not a subject we fully understand but I trust God and what He has revealed to us in His Word about who He is.
It's not a subject anyone can understand because it is absolutely extra-Biblical (found nowhere in Scriptures), requiring one to redefine dozens of terms to even entertain such complete and utter nonsense.

I choose to believe Him over anyone who denies what the Bible says.
If that were true, you wouldn't believe in something that isn't found anywhere in the Bible, and which contradicts scores of verses that prove beyond any doubt that Father is God and that Christ is His Firstborn (First-CREATED) Son. That's why Christ referred to Father as His God at least 7 times.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, MY God (1), MY God (2), why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13-54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] MY God (3), and your God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the Temple of MY God (4), and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY God (5), and the name of the city of MY God (6), [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY God (7)*: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.

Note well that Christ's Revelation to John was AFTER His Ascension into heaven. So any argument that “Christ-Jesus only had a God while He (Christ) was in human form” is baseless, i.e. it's a LIE.

One of the reasons I chose not to respond to most of your posts is because you don't have one faith. The Bible says, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5).
And you don't find that to be hypocritical considering you have divided God into 3 separate persons? The trinity is a Roman Catholic invention!

“Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in scripture ... But the Protestant Churches have themselves accepted such dogmas, AS THE TRINITY, for which there is no such precise authority in the Gospels,” — (Assumption of Mary, Life magazine, Oct 30, 1950, p. 51)

Source: http://www.trinitytruth.org/the-trinity-doctrine-exposed.html#Part15

From the Athanasian Creed: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity...

...This is the catholic faith
; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

"The doctrine of the Trinity is the central Catholic Dogma, that Catholics are obliged to believe.

“He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.”
-the Athanasian Creed"

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

You have other faiths that are not to do with the God of the Bible. You believe in other gods that contradict the God of the bible.
Faith is trust in God. It is therefore never plural. And there is only ONE God: Father, Whose Name is "I AM"; the self-existing ONE.

It appears you have misjudged (see Matt. 7:1-4) what you don't understand, or don't want to understand, that Father gave the Quran to the Moslems, to direct them to the Bible and ultimately to Christ, Who is THE Master/Teacher/Imam. Would you rather the Moslems not find Christ? Do you not realize that Jesus is the most mentioned individual in the Quran, being referenced directly or indirectly at least 187 times?

That is the very definition of having other gods before God as the first commandment says. You mix and match your faiths to suit your beliefs. How can you understand God when you are all over the place with your beliefs?
IF you get rid of ALL organized religions and their superstitious rites and rituals, we are left only with the message that Father has sent down to us from above, through His Prophets/Messengers and His Firstborn Son.

ONE God, ONE Message, being delivered to ONE people, and being taught by the ONE Teacher/Mediator/High-Priest: Christ.

And how did Christ teach us to pray? Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name.

If there really was a "trinity" of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", then why wouldn't Christ, THE Master/Teacher teach His Disciples to pray to that? Instead Christ taught His disciples to pray to Father, just as He Himself prayed to Father (THE God).

Think about it.


I don't intend on responding to any replies from you unless miraculously you agree with God's word as is.
Understood.

Thanks for wishing me a good Sabbath though. It is good.
You're welcome.
 
Last edited:

A Freeman

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Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
8,329
Was I? I basically said the same thing. We aren’t saved by works and since we couldn’t obey the law in the first place why are we having to obey the law when we are saved? We instead are being sanctified having been justified by Jesus fulfilling the law.
‭‭

Whats grace? As in saved by grace through faith in Jesus?

1grace
noun
\ˈgrās\
1a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their sanctification



No the law was the tutor to show us we needed Jesus to save us.
Galatians‬ ‭3:24-26‬ ‭
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.​


‭‭

What specifically does this mean?



Romans‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​
‭‭



Jesus didn’t fulfill the law so He could help you keep it. Jesus fulfilled the law so you could be justified through Him.

Romans‬ ‭3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​
‭‭


It’s all grace and faith now.
Ephesians‬ ‭2:4-9‬ ‭
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​
‭‭
Whatever works we are to do are by God’s will...
Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​
‭‭

But first one must
Acts‬ ‭16:31‬ ‭
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”​
‭‭
You're trying to argue up is down and black is white and that lawlessness is somehow righteousness and it will NEVER work.

The Law was given to us to be a schoolmaster (teacher) to bring us to Christ, so anyone foolish enough to proclaim themselves graduated without ever studying and striving to keep The Law, is on the broad path that leads to destruction, as Christ warned (Matt. 7:13-14).

Matthew 23:1-4
23:1 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
23:2 Saying, The lawyers and the politicians sit in Moses' Law seat:
23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe of God's Law, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their example: for they say, and do not (and make up their own laws against God's Orders - Deut. 4:2).
23:4 For they bind heavy burdens (the Talmud) and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not lift one of their fingers to remove them.

John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh His glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
7:19 Did not Moses give you The Law, and [yet] none of you keepeth The Law? Why go ye about to kill me?

John 5:42-47
5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

phipps

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GODHEAD

In the King James Bible the word ‘Godhead’ is used three times, as follows:

“Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.” (Acts 17:29).

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9).

The Bible clearly teaches about the Godhead and anyone who rejects this is rejecting God's truth.
 
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Beloved

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GODHEAD

In the King James Bible the word ‘Godhead’ is used three times, as follows:

“Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.” (Acts 17:29).

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and divine nature; so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the divine nature bodily” (Colossians 2:9).

The Bible clearly teaches about the Godhead and anyone who rejects this is rejecting God's truth.
It does say “godhead”, but it is better translated as divine nature. I edited your original post and replaced “godhead” with divine nature.

Godhead is usually associated with the trinity(which I do not reject), but that’s not what the verses are talking about.

godhead is another way of saying godhood, which refers to God’s divinity.

The words “divine nature” are actually used instead of godhead in 2 Peter 1:4

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
 

phipps

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It does say “godhead”, but it is better translated as divine nature. I edited your original post and replaced “godhead” with divine nature.

Godhead is usually associated with the trinity(which I do not reject), but that’s not what the verses are talking about.

godhead is another way of saying godhood, which refers to God’s divinity.

The words “divine nature” are actually used instead of godhead in 2 Peter 1:4
The divine nature of God includes the three persons in one of the Godhead. The divine nature is the quality of being God. That's referring to all three persons of the Godhead.

I prefer to use the word "Godhead" to mean Trinity because Trinity is linked to the teaching of the Catholic church that differs from the Bible.
 

A Freeman

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GODHEAD

In the King James Bible the word ‘Godhead’ is used three times, as follows:

“Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.” (Acts 17:29).

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9).

The Bible clearly teaches about the Godhead and anyone who rejects this is rejecting God's truth.
It says GODHEAD, NOT "trinity" or "triune god" because God is the HEAD of everyone, including Christ:-

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than ALL; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of The Highest: and the Lord God his Father shall give unto him the Throne of David:

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son OF the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

A SON is the OFFSPRING/CREATION of His Father, by definition.

A FATHER is the PROGENITOR/CREATOR of His Son, by definition.

"Greater than" does NOT mean "equal to", by definition.

The Highest/MOST High means there are NONE higher (or equal to), by definition.

How many heads do people have? ONE (NOT three).

People need to start using the one head they've been given and stop redefining words to suit their man made-up doctrines and confusion, which are IN TRUTH found NOWHERE in the Bible. Anyone choosing to believe in the Babylonian/Roman trinity delusion is choosing to believe in an obvious LIE (
2 Thess. 2:3-12), and in doing so, is breaking the First and Most Important Commandment.

God is NOT the author of confusion; Satan is (
1 Cor. 14:33).
 
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Lisa

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You're trying to argue up is down and black is white and that lawlessness is somehow righteousness and it will NEVER work.

The Law was given to us to be a schoolmaster (teacher) to bring us to Christ, so anyone foolish enough to proclaim themselves graduated without ever studying and striving to keep The Law, is on the broad path that leads to destruction, as Christ warned (Matt. 7:13-14).

Matthew 23:1-4
23:1 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
23:2 Saying, The lawyers and the politicians sit in Moses' Law seat:
23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe of God's Law, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their example: for they say, and do not (and make up their own laws against God's Orders - Deut. 4:2).
23:4 For they bind heavy burdens (the Talmud) and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not lift one of their fingers to remove them.

John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh His glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
7:19 Did not Moses give you The Law, and [yet] none of you keepeth The Law? Why go ye about to kill me?

John 5:42-47
5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
I didn’t say lawlessness was righteousness but that we are being sanctified. Sanctification is a different process than law keeping. If we could keep the law we wouldn’t have needed sacrifice but we can’t keep the law due to sin. Jesus however was able to keep the law and because of that He was able to be the once for all sacrifice for sin. That is what fulfilled the law means.


1sanctify
verb
sanc·ti·fy
\-ˌfī\

sanc·ti·fied; sanc·ti·fy·ing
  • transitive verb
  • 1: to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use :consecrate
  • 2: to free from sin :purify
 

A Freeman

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I didn’t say lawlessness was righteousness but that we are being sanctified. Sanctification is a different process than law keeping. If we could keep the law we wouldn’t have needed sacrifice but we can’t keep the law due to sin. Jesus however was able to keep the law and because of that He was able to be the once for all sacrifice for sin. That is what fulfilled the law means.


1sanctify
verb
sanc·ti·fy
\-ˌfī\
sanc·ti·fied; sanc·ti·fy·ing
  • transitive verb
  • 1: to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use :consecrate
  • 2: to free from sin :purify
Do you understand what the term "cognitive dissonance" (double-mindedness) means please?

It's holding two CONFLICTING viewpoints in one's mind at the same time, pretending (lying) to one's self that they aren't in conflict.

Sanctification, by definition, is the purification from sin. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be sanctified without keeping The Law. It isn't a "different process", nor are there any excuses anymore for not keeping The Law as Christ COMMANDED us to do IF we know Him and love Him.

John 14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.

John 14:21-24
14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

1 John 2:3-4
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.

You keep pretending/lying to yourself that we cannot keep The Law, as if God is an idiot who gave us a Law we cannot keep. And in doing this you also make a mockery of Christ's Sacrifice, which paid for our PAST sins, to provide us with a New Covenant.

Romans 3:24-25
3:24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the "I AM", that I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel, and with the House of Judah:
31:32 Not according to The Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; My Covenant which THEY broke, although I was an husband unto them, saith the "I AM":
31:33 But this [shall be] The Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel; After those days, saith the "I AM", I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The terms and conditions of the New Covenant are exactly the same as the Old Covenant: keep The Law/Commandments of God. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

Everything you have to say on this subject thus far has been a LIE. Learn the difference between the words "can't" and won't". Everyone can keep The Law, as Christ said, because WITH God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26). Those who won't keep The Law are choosing, of their own free-will, to continue listening to and obeying Satan/Santa (Lucifer/the devil/liar).

We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey.
 

Lisa

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Everything you have to say on this subject thus far has been a LIE.
Actually you are the one who is in error and are spreading deception. You obviously don’t understand Jesus and why He came and you surely have no idea about being saved by grace through faith.
 

Tidal

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When you state that Jesus and God were two separate entities, is one to understand that "persons" even more than entities are meant? In other words, if Jesus is a separate person, or even entity, do you see Him as nevertheless "consubstantial" (of one substance) with "God, the Father" and "God, the Holy Spirit" in the formation of a traditional, say orthodox trinity?
The "trinity" is just a play on words cooked up by the catholic church so don't take it too seriously.
A fairly good analogy is to regard God and Jesus as being like two halves of an oyster sharing the same guts (the holy spirit), or to put it another way God and Jesus are sharing the same song sheet in perfect harmony like the Everly Brothers.. :D

Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)


 
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Lisa

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The "trinity" is just a play on words cooked up by the catholic church so don't take it too seriously.
An fairly good analogy is to regard God and Jesus as being like two halves of an oyster sharing the same guts (the holy spirit), or to put it another way God and Jesus are sharing the same song sheet in perfect harmony like the Everly Brothers.. :D

Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)


Or an egg..three parts, one egg.
 

Tidal

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Is the "trio" exclusively limited to three or can others join in the song and have it thereby become a fully fledged choir, like this ...
Yeah no problem, the invite to that great party in the sky is on the table for everybody..
:)
Jesus said- "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son...he told his servants- go out and invite to the banquet anyone you find" (Matt 22:2)

The only requirement is that people like Jesus, otherwise there's no way they'll be able to gatecrash their way in-

 

Tidal

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I'm not meaning to complicate things -I'm just trying to get clear on some outstanding doctrinal issues. So all one must do is "like" Jesus, sort of like on Facebook? Is there a need to "believe" in the efficacy and atoning properties of blood sacrifices, whether of animals or of the high priest himself?
Whoa mate, don't get bogged in "doctrinal issues" and all that razzmattaz, and remember what Paul said- "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
The simple fact is that if anybody doesn't like Jesus they've got zero chance of getting through the pearlies, but if they like him the odds are in their favour because he's the safest bet in town, right Kid?

"Right"
 

Cintra

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Whoa mate, don't get bogged in "doctrinal issues" and all that razzmattaz, and remember what Paul said- "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
The simple fact is that if anybody doesn't like Jesus they've got zero chance of getting through the pearlies, but if they like him the odds are in their favour because he's the safest bet in town, right Kid?
Could you tell me which bible version this comes from, please.

"I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

It is not a translation or paraphrase that I recognise.
 
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