144,000: Literal or symbolic?

[Thunderian]

Who are the 144 000 ?

They are servants of God who are sealed at the time of His wrath over the world.


Who is God ? Jesus Christ !

So who are servants of God ? Christians !


Why is it said that the servants of God are from all the tribes of the children of Israel ? This is because God is the God of Israel and He is the same God in both Testaments. From the twelve tribes to the twleve apostles to the 12x12x1000 servants of God who will be sealed at the time of His great displeasure over this wicked world.

Does this mean that most christians are not worthy to be sealed by God at this time ? Absolutely !

I don’t think anyone is saying they can’t be considered Christians, but you still need to connect the dots between God specifically saying they are male virgins, of the children of Israel, while noting each tribe they are from, and this crazy idea of yours that the 144,000 are made up of Christians like you and me. We don’t qualify — not because we’re not pure enough (that in itself is completely unbiblical because we are all justified through Christ) — but because we are not of the children of Israel, and the Bible is very clear that the 144,000 most definitely are.

 

[TokiEl]

I don’t think anyone is saying they can’t be considered Christians, but you still need to connect the dots between God specifically saying they are male virgins, of the children of Israel, while noting each tribe they are from, and this crazy idea of yours that the 144,000 are made up of Christians like you and me. We don’t qualify — not because we’re not pure enough (that in itself is completely unbiblical because we are all justified through Christ) — but because we are not of the children of Israel, and the Bible is very clear that the 144,000 most definitely are.

Christians are also considered as children of Israel.

Jesus Christ is the God of Israel and so the servants of God are Christians. It doesn't matter if you are jew or greek or american... as a Christian you are called by the Name of the God of Israel.

Now many are christians in name only and few are pure Christians. God knows who they are... you cannot fool God.

 

[Thunderian]

Christians are also considered as children of Israel.

Christians are heirs to the spiritual promise of a redeemer that was given to Abraham, and in that way we are grafted in, but physical Israel still has a bunch of physical promises that the Bible is clear that only they can inherit. So unless you can find a verse that says that all believers become Israel, you’re out to lunch. Do you have such a verse?

The term “children of Israel” literally means what it says — the physical children of Jacob/Israel. Do you believe that we can read the Bible and substitute the word “Christian” every time we see the word “Israel”?

 

[TokiEl]

Christians are heirs to the spiritual promise of a redeemer that was given to Abraham, and in that way we are grafted in, but physical Israel still has a bunch of physical promises that the Bible is clear that only they can inherit. So unless you can find a verse that says that all believers become Israel, you’re out to lunch. Do you have such a verse?

Right the Bible is crystal clear about the return and restoration of a remnant of jews... and at a appointed time that remnant will repent and believe in Jesus Christ... who is God.

Jesus Christ is God and so His servants are Christians.

If that is hard to understand... maybe you ought to take up manual labour ? It's not for everyone or joe and jane to interpret the Bible.


Soon the state of Israel will become a christian nation.

 

[Thunderian]

Right the Bible is crystal clear about the return and restoration of a remnant of jews... and at a appointed time that remnant will repent and believe in Jesus Christ... who is God.

Jesus Christ is God and so His servants are Christians.

If that is hard to understand... maybe you ought to take up manual labour ? It's not for everyone or joe and jane to interpret the Bible.


Soon the state of Israel will become a christian nation.

I didn’t say the 144,000 aren’t Christians.

But you said that all Christians are considered children of Israel. Can you go through the Bible and replace the term Israel with the term Christian and it still make sense, or is the Bible being correct when it says the 144,000 are exclusively Jews?

 

[TokiEl]

I didn’t say the 144,000 aren’t Christians.

But you said that all Christians are considered children of Israel. Can you go through the Bible and replace the term Israel with the term Christian and it still make sense, or is the Bible being correct when it says the 144,000 are exclusively Jews?

The Bible does not say that the 144 000 are jews.

You see jews are just from the tribe of Judah.

And so 12 000 might be messianic jews which is just another name for christians.


This is from the book of Revelation written in Greek the language of the gentiles and so is addressed to christians.

 

[Thunderian]

The Bible does not say that the 144 000 are jews.

You see jews are just from the tribe of Judah.

And so 12 000 might be messianic jews which is just another name for christians.


This is from the book of Revelation written in Greek the language of the gentiles and so is addressed to christians.

I’m using Jews, as Paul does, to refer to the children of Israel. The Bible says that the 144,000 will be taken from all the tribes of the Children of Israel.

Do you believe that one can be a member of the 144,000 if one is not of the tribes of the children of Israel, or do you believe the Bible is wrong?

 

[TokiEl]

I’m using Jews, as Paul does, to refer to the children of Israel. The Bible says that the 144,000 will be taken from all the tribes of the Children of Israel.

At the time of Paul only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin were in Judea.

Ten tribes were taken captive by Assyria centuries before that time.

Where are the ten tribes ? Probably mingled with the whole world by now.

 

[Thunderian]

At the time of Paul only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin were in Judea.

Ten tribes were taken captive by Assyria centuries before that time.

Where are the ten tribes ? Probably mingled with the whole world by now.

Why don’t we set aside the definition of Jew for the time being? The real discussion is who makes up the 144,000. Yes, they will be believers, and that’s not the argument, either.

The Bible says the 144,000 will be of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Who exactly are the children of Israel?

 

[TokiEl]

Why don’t we set aside the definition of Jew for the time being? The real discussion is who makes up the 144,000. Yes, they will be believers, and that’s not the argument, either.

The Bible says the 144,000 will be of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Who exactly are the children of Israel?

Ten tribes of the children of Israel were removed from the Holy land by Assyria and resettled beyond the Euphrates centuries before the time of Jesus. And the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin were removed from the Holy land by Rome and survivors resettled into the middle east north africa and europe.

The ten tribes must have mingled with the whole world by now and the two tribes as well although some kept their religion and customs and eventually returned to the Holy land.

God is Jesus Christ and so the servants of God are Christians.

Jews arabs americans africans germans asians etc etc doesn't matter... if you believe in Jesus and observe His words you are a child of Israel.

 

[Lisa]

if you believe in Jesus and observe His words you are a child of Israel.

That’s incorrect. If you believe Jesus you are a Christian not a Jew. The Jews are a separate people..descendants from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are still a chosen people in God’s eyes.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The Bible says the 144,000 will be of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Who exactly are the children of Israel?

If the 144,000 were not literal, then Christ would not have been so precise about the names of the twelve tribes. If you will notice, The tribes of Dan and Ephraim are missing and replaced with Levi and Joseph. Dan caused Israel to fall into idolatry and Ephraim brought division to the tribes of Israel, and God replaced them with Levi and Joseph.....Not the Gentiles. If you read the rest of Chapter 7, it is through the preaching of the anointed 144,00 Jews that the Gentiles are saved...more than anyone can count. Rev. 7:9 and the elders are around the throne (The elders refer to the Church that is already with Christ) Verse 11. Then the Church (elders) ask who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where did they come? verse 13. Then Jesus explains to them who they are and what their place is in the temple of God Verses 14-17. As all the priests in the OT were from the tribe of Levi, not all Levites were priests, some of the Levites took care of the temple serving God. These are those who are in the 5th seal of Chapter 6 of Revelation.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

Ten tribes of the children of Israel were removed from the Holy land by Assyria and resettled beyond the Euphrates centuries before the time of Jesus. And the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin were removed from the Holy land by Rome and survivors resettled into the middle east north africa and europe.

The ten tribes must have mingled with the whole world by now and the two tribes as well although some kept their religion and customs and eventually returned to the Holy land.

God is Jesus Christ and so the servants of God are Christians.

Jews arabs americans africans germans asians etc etc doesn't matter... if you believe in Jesus and observe His words you are a child of Israel.

"If you believe in Jesus and observe his words you are a child of Israel" actually that's false. Simply believing and reading his word doesn't mean you're saved. You need to have faith, your heart needs to be hungry, and you, yourself will need to repent daily. You can't just believe in him, read his word, and be like "Welp my bible study is over for the day! Now I'm going to go steal some chocolate but it won't matter because I believe in God!" You need to be more specific when teaching others about Gods word because some people may think only believing will save you but no it will not.

Some so called Christians are actually cold and lukewarm and will they inherit the kingdom of God? No. God has his chosen people already even if some find out later. But anyways, I just wanted to add on to this.

 

[Thunderian]

Ten tribes of the children of Israel were removed from the Holy land by Assyria and resettled beyond the Euphrates centuries before the time of Jesus. And the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin were removed from the Holy land by Rome and survivors resettled into the middle east north africa and europe.

The ten tribes must have mingled with the whole world by now and the two tribes as well although some kept their religion and customs and eventually returned to the Holy land.

That's not what the Bible says.

In 2 Chronicles 11 and elsewhere we read that the land of Israel was split, not between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the south and the other ten tribes in the north, but between the faithful and the unfaithful. Think about this: If it was only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin that remained of Israel, who was performing the ceremonies in the Temple? Chronicles tells us the tribe of Levi moved south to serve in the Temple during the reign of Rehoboam.

2Ch 11:14​

For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:​

What about the rest of the Israelites who wanted to stay faithful to God?

2Ch 11:16​

And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.​

Earlier in the chapter God addresses "all Israel in Judah and Benjamin". How can he address "all Israel" if it's only Judah and Benjamin? How can services be performed in the Temple if the tribe of Levi isn't there? Did you consider these things?

So the idea that Israel was split into 2 and 10 tribes, with the 10 tribes dispersed and lost, is popular among ignorant people, but not with anyone who reads the Bible. I am surprised to see you repeating this false notion.

The truth, as related in scripture, is that there were representatives of all the tribes of Israel present in the southern kingdom of Judah, and while the unfaithful of all tribes living in the northern kingdom of Israel were lost to captivity, the tribes themselves were never lost. If they were, who is James talking to when he addresses his letter "to the twelve tribes"?

This other thread might be helpful to you.

The Ten Lost Tribes: Mystery of the Myth

I feel like this might be a helpful article from Chuck Missler. :) The Ten Lost Tribes khouse.org/articles/1995/40 This month (June 1995) we celebrate the Feast of Shavout, or Pentecost. In Peter's famous speech on this day in Acts Chapter 2, he referred to both "Jews" and "Israel", which...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

if you believe in Jesus and observe His words you are a child of Israel.

If that's the case, what do you do with a passage like the following?

2Co 3:12​

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:​

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2Co 3:13​

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:​

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2Co 3:14​

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

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2Co 3:15​

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.​

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2Co 3:16​

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​

It says that, even to this day, a vail is upon the heart of the children of Israel until their heart (not hearts, notice) turns to the Lord.

If all believers are children of Israel, what on earth is Paul talking about? The minds of believers are blinded until they turn to the Lord? How does that makes sense? Can you explain?

 

[Thunderian]

"If you believe in Jesus and observe his words you are a child of Israel" actually that's false. Simply believing and reading his word doesn't mean you're saved. You need to have faith, your heart needs to be hungry, and you, yourself will need to repent daily. You can't just believe in him, read his word, and be like "Welp my bible study is over for the day! Now I'm going to go steal some chocolate but it won't matter because I believe in God!" You need to be more specific when teaching others about Gods word because some people may think only believing will save you but no it will not.

Some so called Christians are actually cold and lukewarm and will they inherit the kingdom of God? No. God has his chosen people already even if some find out later. But anyways, I just wanted to add on to this.

This is false as well. Once you are saved and indwelt with God's Holy Spirit your destiny is sealed.

 

[floss]

"If you believe in Jesus and observe his words you are a child of Israel" actually that's false. Simply believing and reading his word doesn't mean you're saved. You need to have faith, your heart needs to be hungry, and you, yourself will need to repent daily. You can't just believe in him, read his word, and be like "Welp my bible study is over for the day! Now I'm going to go steal some chocolate but it won't matter because I believe in God!" You need to be more specific when teaching others about Gods word because some people may think only believing will save you but no it will not.

Some so called Christians are actually cold and lukewarm and will they inherit the kingdom of God? No. God has his chosen people already even if some find out later. But anyways, I just wanted to add on to this.

That's a false Gospel

Salvation is a one time deal. Sincerely Repent once (turn from unbelief to believe), this is also your Born Again moment sealed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The remaining of your Christian life still matters a lot, whether you're hot or cold, fruitful or fruitless, God will never forsake because by his Mercy he doesn't look at YOU, he look at JESUS for your redemption. You were never good enough to begin with and you will never be good enough to keep it, if it were even possible.

 

[phipps]

That's a false Gospel

Salvation is a one time deal. Sincerely Repent once (turn from unbelief to believe), this is also your Born Again moment sealed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The remaining of your Christian life still matters a lot, whether you're hot or cold, fruitful or fruitless, God will never forsake because by his Mercy he doesn't look at YOU, he look at JESUS for your redemption. You were never good enough to begin with and you will never be good enough to keep it, if it were even possible.

What you're saying is false too. This once saved always saved doctrine is not of God. I'll come at this from the angle of the book of life. Our names can be blotted from the book of life.

Exodus 32:31-33, "Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.” And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book."

Psalm 69:27-28, "Add iniquity to their iniquity, And let them not come into Your righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous."

Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Revelation 17:8, "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Revelation 20:15, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

That book contains only the names of those who have chosen to be citizens of the New Jerusalem. Jesus encouraged His disciples to rejoice because their “names are recorded in heaven”, and Paul refers to his fellow workers as those “whose names are in the book of life”.

Luke 10:20, "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Philippians 4:3, "And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

The Bible is clear from Genesis to Revelation that as long as repentant sinners persevere in faith and retain a spirit of dependence and submission to God through Christ’s atoning work, their names will not be blotted out. They are indeed citizens of the heavenly city.

It is possible and it has/does happen for Christians to fall away from their faith. They go back to lives of sin and stop submitting and listening to the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

We must continue in the faith to the very end to be saved. Salvation is conditional on our continuing to the end.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

That's a false Gospel

Salvation is a one time deal. Sincerely Repent once (turn from unbelief to believe), this is also your Born Again moment sealed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The remaining of your Christian life still matters a lot, whether you're hot or cold, fruitful or fruitless, God will never forsake because by his Mercy he doesn't look at YOU, he look at JESUS for your redemption. You were never good enough to begin with and you will never be good enough to keep it, if it were even possible.

As Phipps said, the "once saved always saved" thing isn't true because guess what? God said, "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will inherit my kingdom" he means the lukewarm/cold Christians. Ultimately, it is his choice to decide who he wants his people to be. I know that I am a true servant of Christ, and I have in fact been lukewarm and cold but when I continue to repent I am forgiven.

You may say, "Well that's what I just said! Repenting will save you!" you're actually saying repenting once and having belief in God will get you saved, that isn't true. What happens to Christians who only serve the Lord half way or not at all? They get cast into the lake of fire hence the verse I gave above. I know what I'm talking about and why? Because God gave me this message with HIS knowledge.

Do NOT understand Gods word with your own knowledge, pray and read his word with God to understand his word with the knowledge that HE may give you.

Since you said simply repenting and believing will save you, allow me to give you an example. Let's say I'm lukewarm but I sin, know it, and choose not to repent. Am I saved? No. What if I kill someone but still have belief in God? Will I still inherit his kingdom? No, because repenting is NOT a one time thing. You must repent daily because you sin daily. One sinful thought, one sinful action still counts.

I am one of Gods true servants, but what if I steal something and don't repent from there? That means during Judgment Day, he will inform me about it, and I won't get a happy ending. Gods people which he picked, here's a verse: "The narrow path leads to life, the straight path leads to destruction. Many will find their way on the path of destruction, and few will walk on the path of life" and, "But because I chose you OUT of the WORLD, the WORLD HATES you" Notice he said, "I'm the one that chose you"

Not only that, but he warns us the days are evil and we must walk with him wisely, otherwise it's a bad thing as you SHOULD know.

So in conclusion, Gods people are chosen BY God and eventually we choose him as well, and the false Christians will make their way to the lake of fire, and everyone else not of God will also go to the lake of fire. So don't think repenting once will give you happiness forevermore because it will not.

 

[Thunderian]

It’s heartbreaking that there are still Christians who think that they can break the seal God puts on them when they accept his sacrifice for them, but there are plenty of threads on this board for that particular discussion, aren’t there?

@phipps, you have unanswered questions stacking up on this subject. Please don’t try to change the topic now.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

It’s heartbreaking that there are still Christians who think that they can break the seal God puts on them when they accept his sacrifice for them, but there are plenty of threads on this board for that particular discussion, aren’t there?

@phipps, you have unanswered questions stacking up on this subject. Please don’t try to change the topic now.

Phipps isn't changing the topic, but rather teaching you Gods word. Just because you still stand by your wrong opinion doesn't mean Phipps is changing the subject. Your name can in fact get blotted out the book of life if you don't repent and serve the Lord fully and correctly.