144,000: Literal or symbolic?

[phipps]

Identification marks of the 144,000.

1. They will be a special group of people that exist in the last days.

2. They are Israelites - of spiritual Israel. True Christians.

3. They are sealed.

4. They are not defiled by the teachings and practices of Babylon.

5. They attain to perfection of character.

6. They experience the great tribulation of the end time.

7. They are victorious in the conflict with the Beast and his image.

8. They will experience being without a mediator.

9. They vindicate God by displaying to the universe that man can keep God's law.

10. They do not experience death.

11. They represent the living righteous who will be translated (firstfruits).

12. They will receive a special reward in the Kingdom.

The question may be asked, "Can I be among those represented by the 144,000?" If one is permitted to live until the Second Advent and their trust in Christ continues, and they follow Christ, "with deep intense devotion", the answer is yes. You may have the privilege of being one of that number.

The 144,000 "follow the Lamb wither He goeth". If we follow the Lamb now by His grace, we will surely follow Him in the Kingdom. How do we follow Christ? In obeying Him. "If you love me" He said, "keep my commandments". God help us to follow the Lamb whither so ever He goes till we finally stand before the throne with all the millions of the redeemed.

 

[Axl888]

It is literal...

 

[phipps]

It is literal...

Not biblically.

 

[Axl888]

Not biblically.

It is literal biblically.

 

[phipps]

It is literal biblically.

No because the book of Revelation is mostly symbolic not literal. The chapters that the 144,000 are written about are symbolic not literal. I explained more than this in my posts above. I refer you to them.

 

[Thunderian]

Literal Jews, 12,000 from each tribe.

The lengths people go to when they deny the plain words of the Bible ...

 

[phipps]

A Symbolic Number?

It is clear that the 144,000 must be understood in a symbolic way rather than in a literal way.

The immediate context is clearly symbolic (7:1-3) mentioning the four corners of the world, the four winds of the earth, sea, earth, trees, and the seal of God. But also the extended context, namely Rev 6 is largely symbolic, for instance, the apocalyptic riders and the martyrs under the altar. The parallel passage in 14:1-5 must be understood symbolically. It tells us that the 144,000 "have not defiled themselves with women." They are "virgins" and follow the "Lamb." The group does not consist of unmarried men only. The term "woman" is a symbol in Rev as is the term "Lamb."

Therefore, symbolic language is also to be expected for 7:4-8. The number is symbolic—12 times 12 times 1,000—and points to the fullness of the people of God. The enumeration of tribes is very unusual. The tribe Dan is missing, whereas Manasseh should already be contained in Joseph. Ephraim is not mentioned, however, Levi is counted. Judah is found in the first place and Benjamin in the last, forming a parenthesis which encompasses the tribes of the Northern Kingdom. Such a list is not found elsewhere in Scripture. Most of the twelve tribes no longer exist today. Therefore, it is hardly possible to find 144,000 literal Israelites according to their tribes as listed in Rev 7 forming God's end time people. However, the New Testament knows descendants of Abraham that are not literal descendants (Romans 4:11-12) as well as a spiritual Israel (Romans 2:28-29; Galatian 6:16).

Scripture portrays the 144,000 as God's special end time church. According to Rev 7 they are able "to stand" when Jesus returns. They are called "first fruits" which indicates that a larger harvest will be gathered and that they are not the only ones to be saved. Since they have followed the Lamb wherever it went and since they have not joined false worship they will be with Jesus on Mt. Zion and before the throne of God in his heavenly sanctuary. We may not be able to solve all the questions related to the 144,000 and probably this is not so important either. More important is to live in such a way that we may be counted among them.

 

[Lisa]

It is clear that the 144,000 must be understood in a symbolic way rather than in a literal way.

Only in your mind...not in the reality of the Bible.

 

[phipps]

The lengths people go to when they deny the plain words of the Bible ...

So I am denying that Revelation is mostly written is symbolic language and that Revelation 7 and 14 are symbolic? Tell me how you then know what part of those chapters is symbolic and what isn't? Should they be part literal, part symbolic?

Your Zionism has sadly blinded you to biblical truths. Until you accept the Word of God about Israel in the New Covenant you are going to be blinded on this subject forever. You didn't even know there was a heavenly temple until I posted on it. And there is a lot more to this subject and how the Bible harmonises on it but how will you know when you reject it? The third temple is not even written of in the Bible unless you take scripture out of context. Its sad that a Christian such as yourself cannot tell truth from fiction. You've let your stubbornness get in the way of accepting God's truth instead of man made doctrine. Now I am done talking about this subject with you.

 

[phipps]

Only in your mind...not in the reality of the Bible.

Lets agree to disagree and move on but you will always be wrong. You have a lot of made up doctrine about the third temple (not written of in the Bible) and ignore parts of the Bible that tell us who Israel is in the New Covenant. You are no different to those you claim are doing the same thing that's for sure. The truth is the truth whether you accept it or not! I am a Jew as the Bible says and that's that. I want to be part of the 144,000 too. Its sad that a Christian such as yourself cannot tell truth from false doctrine.

It would be only in my mind if I didn't know what the Bible says. The Bible is consistent and has made clear, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God" (Romans 2:28-29). Its so clear even a child could understand.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The text in Revelation 7:4 was written by the apostle John. It is prophetic, yet not typical prophecy. The context is apocalyptic. The Greek word apokalypsis means “revelation”, “disclosure” or “unveiling”.

The 144,000 is literal. John names the twelve Tribes, They are strictly Jewish. The Book of Revelations of Jesus Christ is presented in three tenses, The things that you have seen, the things that are now and the things that are hereafter. (After Chapter 4) or (future). Things that have not happened yet. Christ describes the place of the 144,000 in Chapter 14:1-5.

 

[Lisa]

Lets agree to disagree and move on but you will always be wrong. You have a lot of made up doctrine about the third temple (not written of in the Bible) and ignore parts of the Bible that tell us who Israel is in the New Covenant. You are no different to those you claim are doing the same thing that's for sure. The truth is the truth whether you accept it or not! I am a Jew as the Bible says and that's that. I want to be part of the 144,000 too. Its sad that a Christian such as yourself cannot tell truth from false doctrine.

It would be only in my mind if I didn't know what the Bible says. The Bible is consistent and has made clear, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God" (Romans 2:28-29). Its so clear even a child could understand.

Let’s agree to disagree but I’m always wrong..lol!

I don’t agree to disagree because that doesn’t solve this. One of us is right and the other is wrong. it is you who is wrong...you’ve totally gotten Revelation tragically wrong and forced it to fit your narrative because for some reason you are obsessed with being the new Jews...taken from them what God gave them forever...it’s just wrong and won’t ever be right.

Ya, revelation can be confusing...but....

Obviously talking about Jews..

Revelation‬ ‭7:4-8‬ ‭​

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
‭‭
Obviously talking about the saved who believed in Jesus...this is the only group you could be in.

Revelation‬ ‭7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.​

 

[Lisa]

Christianity isn’t tribal..we are saved individually. We have no tribe except that we are all gentiles. We do not come from Israel and yep, we are grafted in but we don’t replace the Jews or their heritage with our own. That is why you can tell that Revelation 7:4-8 is taking about the actual Jews.

In Romans 11:1..Paul tells us that God has not rejected His people and the reason that the gentiles are getting grafted in if they believe in Jesus. It’s really simple to understand if you aren’t reading it with the bias you obviously have @phipps. You are trying to make scripture say what it doesn’t say to accommodate what you believe and it doesn’t make sense that way and never will.

We gentiles aren’t the new Jews...were never supposed to be and no God has not rejected His people and when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, will return to His chosen people and bring them back to Himself.

 

[phipps]

The 144,000 is literal. John names the twelve Tribes, They are strictly Jewish. The Book of Revelations of Jesus Christ is presented in three tenses, The things that you have seen, the things that are now and the things that are hereafter. (After Chapter 4) or (future). Things that have not happened yet. Christ describes the place of the 144,000 in Chapter 14:1-5.

That's impossible and not biblical. I've explained why in this very forum.

I've already explained this but let me explain it in a different way. The tribes are not literal and can't be. There is a big problem with that idea. With the exception of Judah and Benjamin all the other tribes no longer exist. Tribes like Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon etc. They were forced to leave their land and this is recorded in the Bible.

2 Kings 17:5-6, "Now the king of Assyria went throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria and besieged it for three years. In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried Israel away to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and by the Habor, the River of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes."

2 Kings 17:18, "Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone."

The ten northern tribes were moved to various places and intermarried with other groups and peoples. They disappeared out of sight long ago, thus they no longer exist. So how could the 144,000 be numbered from tribes that no longer exist? Will they come out of thin air? Even Judah was later destroyed by the Romans and scattered around the World. I doubt there are 12,000 pure Jews from Judah today. Benjamin was even a smaller tribe than Judah so there definitely cannot be 12,000 of them. As I posted above, most of the Jews in the nation of Israel today are of European decent. Some of them have no middle eastern DNA at all.

I've posted on this too in various ways too but I'll try and explain it differently here too. Probation for Israel as a nation has long passed.

Matthew 21:43, “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

The Kingdom of God has been taken from the Jews and given to others. Paul adds to this idea:

Romans 11:13, "For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,"

Romans 17-18, "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you."

Those of us who are not Ethnic Jews can also be included because we are grafted into the various tribes. So, Gentiles also partake of the root (which is Christ) and fatness of the olive tree. In God's Kingdom there is neither Jew nor Greek:

Galatians 3:27-29, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

If we have been baptized into Christ, we will put on Christ. Which makes us Abraham's seed. Thus we are heirs according to the promise because their is neither Jew nor Greek. We have been grafted in and unless we sin we won't be kicked out. So anyone of us who accepts Christ and submits to Him can be included into the 144,000 even if we are not literal Jews because we have become Abraham's seed.

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

A true Jew is one who is inwardly a Jew where the Spirit of God is in the heart. This is the truth of God's Word.

 

[Douglas Summers]

That's impossible and not biblical. I've explained why in this very forum.

Not only is it possible...It is the TRUTH>

 

[phipps]

Not only is it possible...It is the TRUTH>

Obviously I disagree and so does the Bible as I've proven to you. You've chosen to ignore the Word of God on this subject too. Nothing more to say to you except to pray that God reveals the truth to you too. God bless.

 

[Lisa]

Obviously I disagree and so does the Bible as I've proven to you. You've chosen to ignore the Word of God on this subject too. Nothing more to say to you except to pray that God reveals the truth to you too. God bless.

It’s amazing how you have nothing more to say to anyone who disagrees with you. How about thanks for sharing where I’m wrong...I’ll pray about it, read God’s word and think on these things...

 

[Thunderian]

So I am denying that Revelation is mostly written is symbolic language and that Revelation 7 and 14 are symbolic? Tell me how you then know what part of those chapters is symbolic and what isn't? Should they be part literal, part symbolic?

Your Zionism had sadly blinded you to biblical truths. Until you accept the Word of God about Israel in the New Covenant you are going to be blinded on this subject forever. You didn't even know there was a heavenly temple until I posted on it. And there is a lot more to this subject and how the Bible harmonises on it but how will you know when you reject it? The third temple is not even written of in the Bible unless you take scripture out of context. Its sad that a Christian such as yourself cannot tell truth from fiction. You've let your stubbornness get in the way of accepting God's truth instead of man made doctrine. Now I am done talking about this subject with you.

The Bible, like many books, uses symbols and allegory to describe real events. Together, the literal and symbolic convey the complete message of God’s word.

When symbols are used in the Bible, their purpose and interpretation can be discerned by using your knowledge of the rest of the Bible. When the Bible is rightly divided, it’s not difficult to understand what it’s saying. The literal meaning is plain, and the symbolic meaning affirms the literal.

Unfortunately, you’ve already decided what the Bible is saying before you give it a chance to interpret itself, and when the literal meaning makes no sense in the framework of your interpretation, you have no choice but to make it symbolic.

I have no problem with the Bible when it says that 12,000 literal Jews from each literal tribe will be sealed and sent out to preach the Gospel, because that’s literally what the Bible says. I don’t need to find another meaning. But because you’ve already rejected the literal words of the Bible when it says that Israel will be regathered in the end times, you have no choice but to reject the 144,000 as literal, too.

Be wary of putting yourself in a box when it comes to reading the Bible. I don’t interpret the 144,000 (and many other things) as literal because I believe Israel is still prophetically in play. I believe Israel is prophetically in play because that’s what the Bible literally says!

 

[phipps]

The Jews in Jesus’ day prided themselves in biologically being Abraham’s descendants, but Jesus said in John 8:39 if they really were
Abraham’s children they would do the works of Abraham. What did Abraham do? He believed, and it was reckoned to Him as righteousness. In the parable in Matthew 21 God sent His Son as a last chance for the nation of Israel to turn to Him. What did they do? They killed His Son! They outright rejected the Saviour. This was the final chance. In Matthew 23:28 we see the final, ultimate rejection. Israel had rejected God by choosing to kill His Son, therefore God rejected the nation of Israel and left their house. This is why the end of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9 is important, it signified the end of salvation through a literal Jewish nation by sending the gospel to the Gentiles. The Jews were given the good news first, and they were to share it. But they chose to stifle it. So the Gospel went to the Gentiles, Jesus became a new Israel, and His followers (no matter their nationality) can be a part of the spiritual nation of Israel.

Some say that in 1948 with the re-establishment of Israel that prophecy was fulfilled. But while many cheered the creation of a homeland for the nationality there is no link between this event and the spiritual nation of Israel that God is working through right now. Remember Israel rejected God multiple times, until finally they killed His Son. Therefore God rejected them.

 

[Thunderian]

With the exception of Judah and Benjamin all the other tribes no longer exist.

Who is James addressing in James 1:1, if the twelve tribes no longer exist?

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.