On the Trinity:

[elsbet]

Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

​

Philippians​

2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

That is the rest of the verse, above. ♡

 

[TokiEl]

Not talking about prophecy, but about whether or not there are pre-Christian texts that contemplate, theorize, address the triune nature of God.

There are none. The Trinity could only have been inferred from the Gospel, not the Torah.

No but you said that Torah scholars do not address the triune nature of God... but those Torah scholars are at best lacking... since it is possible to prove from the timeline in Daniel 9 that the Messiah is Jesus Christ.

So when Torah scholars totally miss the mark concerning their own Messiah... everything they say must be taken with a bag of salt.

 

[Artful Revealer]

No but you said that Torah scholars do not address the triune nature of God... but those Torah scholars are at best lacking... since it is possible to prove from the timeline in Daniel 9 that the Messiah is Jesus Christ.

So when Torah scholars totally miss the mark concerning their own Messiah... everything they say must be taken with a bag of salt.

Regardless, even early Christians understood the Trinity was revealed by Christ and thus revealed in Christian scripture. Trying to find the Trinity in the Old Testament is, again, a historically very recent development to simply legitimise a contested doctrine.

 

[Artful Revealer]

I thought the Gnostics were fond of “Adoptionism”?

Early Adoptionism isn't nontrinitarian. It's a misleading word which means it just differs from the Trinity as defined by the Council of Nicea. According to Valentinian Gnostics, for example, Jesus of Nazareth wasn't 100% God from the moment of his conception because Jesus' baptism signifies His union with the eternal Logos or Christ who descended from Heaven. If he became "more" during His baptism, he had to have been "less" before it.

To believe that Jesus was 100% divine from the beginning is to nullify the Baptism.

To understand this as "all men can ascend to Godhood" is to nullify Jesus' virgin birth and Mary's Immaculate Conception.

Either way, the Trinity is a metaphysical concept first and foremost, of the relationship between God and creation, and that Trinity was accepted by all schools of Christian Gnosticism.

The first theology who was categorically nontrinitarian as in "there is no Trinity whatsoever", was Islam.

 

[elsbet]

Genesis doesn't contain the Trinity. It's not the royal we either. It refers to the Most High (head of the pantheon) and his Divine Assembly (consisting of his 70 sons / angels). This divine council / 70 sons are referred to later in Exodus and the Psalms as well.

Psalm 82, to be precise. I'm familiar-- and it isn't an argument I've rejected.

​

PSALM 82:1,6-7​

God presides in the divine assembly;​

He renders judgment among the gods...​

I have said, Ye are gods;​

and all of you are children of the most High.​

​

But ye shall die like men...​

The 70 sons in Exodus-- you mean Jacob's descendants? I don't see the correlation, there. Overall... I don't see it as an either / or thing. I still believe, based on the text, Jehovah (or I AM) is triune in nature-- that has nothing to do with the divine assembly.

 

[Serveto]

Early Adoptionism isn't nontrinitarian. It's a misleading word which means it just differs from the Trinity as defined by the Council of Nicea. According to Valentinian Gnostics, for example, Jesus of Nazareth wasn't 100% God from the moment of his conception because Jesus' baptism signifies His union with the eternal Logos or Christ who descended from Heaven. If he became "more" during His baptism, he had to have been "less" before it.

To believe that Jesus was 100% divine from the beginning is to nullify the Baptism.

To understand this as "all men can ascend to Godhood" is to nullify Jesus' virgin birth and Mary's Immaculate Conception.

Either way, the Trinity is a metaphysical concept first and foremost, of the relationship between God and creation, and that Trinity was accepted by all schools of Christian Gnosticism.

The first theology who was categorically nontrinitarian as in "there is no Trinity whatsoever", was Islam.

Unless you kindly do it for me, and then gratis, I must patiently await an English translation of this, what sounds to me, based upon some reviews, fascinating book. At any rate, given that we like to SCUBA dive in the same coral reefs, even if I am linguistically handicapped in this case, I bring it to your attention. As I understand, the (Catholic ?) author traces a possible Ebionite link to Islam, something I have long surmised.

 

[bible_student]

​

Philippians​

2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

That is the rest of the verse, above. ♡

Thank you. Always a good idea to be reading the verses in context.

Philippians
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of the Saviour every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Christ Jesus [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God Which worketh in you both to will and to do of [His] good pleasure.
2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the (adopted) sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
2:16 Holding forth the Word of Life; that I may rejoice in The Day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
2:17 Yea, and if I be poured forth upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the community; touching the righteousness which is in The Law, blameless.
3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the Knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of The Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the "dead".
3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended by Christ Jesus.
3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
3:15 Let us therefore, as many as [want to] be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[bible_student]

Faith and / or works?

An interesting analogy from the creator of light?

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/musing-on-faith-wave-or-particle.5429/

Light exists as a “particle” just as faith is a grain of mustard seed. It either simply exists or it doesn’t. Light behaves as a particle at its transmission and its reception. On the other hand, light is experienced as a wave.

The key point is that we experience it as a wave because it is also a particle.

In a related way, good works should follow the life of someone who is born again...

But it is the fact that you are born again that makes you a Christian, not the external works.

It took centuries for physicists to understand that light was both a particle AND a wave. The transformative nature of being born again leads to good works because that is what God has put within the new nature to do. Christians don’t do good works to be saved, they do them because they are saved.

1) “Ye must be born again”
2) If you are, you should WANT to do good works

Yes, the person who becomes born again should naturally as a result want to do good (Godly) work/s as part and characteristic of the new nature, that is of and like to Christ Who enters our heart.

John
9:4 I must work the works of Him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.

Much that might be said about this but it's all in the scripture. It is Christ's Nature that comes in (the Light comes in) and then it illuminates all the dark and that then becomes also part of our work, to then work with The Lord and look at (we have to face up to the truth, about our "selves") and then to work on all those things (with The Lord) that His Light makes visible to us, within us, that are still contrary to The Way of The Lord. He works to bring us into His Kingdom. We are encouraged, and sometimes sternly but not forced (we maintain our free will.) I find that there is some work to do every day (even in rest) but this is not at all like the world's work. It's work that we know (intuitively) that it needs doing (and it is always worth doing) because this is what helps us to gradually be transformed (by our own free-will, which is of utmost importance, because this has to be allowed to happen by our own free-will so we are taking part in the process and also "own" it), gradually learning to take on of characteristics of The Lord (in place of the characteristic of the old selfish human nature - the "self") to become part of our new character. "I am the vine and ye are the branches" The live giving flow that comes from the Vine (Christ) and that then flows into and enlivens and gives (new) life (to the branches - Christ's followers). The thoughts we have about life, people, the world and about things become changed. Progress with this greatly depends on how well (or if at all) one is listening (one has to remain determined in order to succeed and be vigilant) and following (doing my "work" of listening and following and yielding of the "throne" (who is the boss? - giving The Lord "the floor", instead of to the "self") to The Lord, which has to be done continually and on a daily basis). Taking up one's cross and following The Lord, "crucifying (the self) daily". And it is one day at a time. So, it seems much (if not most, and much of the time, even all) of our "work" really, then is just us working quietly on ourselves (together with The Lord) on changing what needs changing within and conforming our thoughts (from which our nature and character springs) to become like Christ's Nature and letting go of what we were in the past to instead learn His Way (which is so much better) towards ultimately perfecting one's new nature (the new creature). It is The Lord Who does the work, and He is very thorough.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable Fire.

So the Holy Spirit works within to do this and from then on there can be no standing still, (otherwise we begin to go backwards) and we also have to learn to keep step. But, The Lord also adjusts His pace to that of His follower and what he or she is able to bear (which The Lord knows).The days become useful, as we are taught from within and start becoming aware of the daily lessons ("work") even in the smallest things, how to do this or that more efficiently, how to be less wasteful, how to be better in our interactions with others, how to think about things, etc.. really just how to "be" (a certain way). But this work with The Lord, is not at all like the work that the world expects. It is something entirely different, as it proceeds from the Guidance we get from within, that we have to keep following it to be able reap the benefit and results of. It's the walk of Faith, no longer trying to struggle through the days alone, but now with Christ, Who is alive and full of vitality and living and working within and unlike the burdens of the world, which just leaves us drained and left holding an "empty bag" (the world gives no real true and lasting reward, unlike The Lord), His rewards are true, His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Matthew
11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

People may not even know of your "work" but eventually, they cannot help but notice the difference in you which comes a a result.

A good friend in the past told me once, after I had said (it was at a point when I became more serious about my Faith and after some experiences I was excited) and said to him that I was going to "do this"... and right then he stopped me and said to me, "no, not you.. but The Lord will do it". Of course, he was right and the Holy Spirit guided him to say that to me (what I needed to hear). He was spot on, and I knew he was also speaking from his own personal experience. The Lord will do the things that you can't. He fills all the gaps, etc. We do have to do our work, but it is with the strength and guidance of The Lord and we do this for The Lord.

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as if to the Lord, and not unto men;

Philippians
3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the Knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of The Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the "dead".
3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended by Christ Jesus.
3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
3:15 Let us therefore, as many as [want to] be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ (the cross of "Self"-sacrifice):
3:19 Whose end [is] destruction, whose god [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Christ Jesus:
3:21 Who shall change our vile [selfish] body, that it may be refashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[bible_student]

John 20 17Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”


What about it ?

The composition of God is threefold.

The Father is God and the Word/Son is God and the Holy spirit is God.


You may not understand it... but this is basic bible truths.

I know about how churches teach it as doctrine, but the Athenasian Creed (which is what most of the churches uphold and subscribe to) is different from what Christ said.

When you look at the text of the Athenasian Creed it is actually worded as a legal document (legislation - which is against God's Law - Deut. 4:2). It's actually legislation that is used to get people to submit to being catholic, that veils what the scriptures actually teach when allowed to do so on its own.


2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [let him be] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
5:18 And all things [are] of God, Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.
5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] through us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
5:21 For He hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 

[DUSTY]

God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. One God. Three 'persons'.
God the Father had full authority over God the Son while God the Son was on Earth.
The ROLE God the Father had at that time was one of more authority. That is clear.
But God the Son is still fully God while being incarnated human.
The roles they had at that time in no way changes that fact. That is also clear.

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority

2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

God the Father stated, “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear” (Is 45:23). The same exact description is also applied to Jesus (Phil 2:10-11).

The Bible teaches that “God” is judge (1 Sam 2:10; Ps 50:6; Ecc 12:14; many others). But so is Jesus (Jn 5:22, 27; 9:39; Acts 10:42; 2 Tim 4:1). Therefore He is God.

God the Father sits on His throne in heaven (1 Ki 22:19; Ps 11:4; 47:8). Jesus is on the same throne, too (Rev 7:17; 22:1, 3)

God the Father said, “besides me there is no savior” (Is 43:11; cf. 1 Tim 4:10). Yet Jesus is called the “savior” of mankind in passages like Luke 2:11 and many others.

2 Corinthians 13:14 - May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.

Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

JESUS HIMSELF took the name God used for Himself with Moses ... "Before Abraham was born, I AM". John 8:58. Jesus confirmed that He is eternal and that He is God. The jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God so they tried to kill Him for it.

John 14:9 - Jesus said "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

Mark 10:18 - "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone". Jesus wanted people to think about it. People called Him 'good'. He said that only God is good. He was telling them that He is indeed good and that He is God because He also confirmed that He is sinless - John 8:46 "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? I am telling the truth. Why don't you believe me?"

SON OF MAN - Jesus claims to be the fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14. Jesus says it over and over ... calling Himself the 'Son of Man'. Daniel 7:13-14 . 13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

The Jews knew He was claiming to be God - John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Only God is worshipped - Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

JESUS is prayed to - Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So Jesus was prayed to and worshipped. And Jesus allowed it.
See also Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38

GOD THE FATHER COMMANDS WORSHIP OF JESUS - Hebrews 1:6 . "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

According to the bible - Jesus is God. Believe the bible or not ... that's your choice.
But for those who say that scripture doesn't claim Jesus is God ... you are clearly incorrect.

 

[Phithx]

When you think of an egg, do you also think of it’s three parts that make up the egg? It has a shell, the whites and the yolk, different parts to an egg but still one egg. When we look at the trinity in this way, we can start to understand what God is talking about when He is 3 but 1.

Also, the trinity isn’t a catholic teaching, it is a Christian teaching and you can read the Bible to see that it’s true. To be a Christian, yep, you must believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirt, otherwise you can’t really call yourself a Christian.

Who is God talking about here...

Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭​

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”​

‭‭

Thank-you for these comments. If I may, I'll add a tangent comment:

It seems accurate to say that we are Spirit/Soul Beings inhabiting physical humans/bodies: human+Beings (capital because Spirit is higher than physical).

So strictly speaking the correct way to introduce our dual selves would be "we" ... interestingly, just like queen Victoria did, et al.

And would it be fair to say that the Universe is akin to the Supreme Being as our bodies are akin to us Beings. At least an aspect of "in His image"?

In that case; is the King (Psalm 10:16) of the Universe addressing Himself as His Royal (dual) We in Genesis 1:26?

His physical creation has triple constituents, like eggs do ... which are eventually broken down into their individual parts, but can we say that that is true of the Supreme Being, or even the Spirit realm? Hard to know really?

The First Great Commandment may only be referring to Supreme Being/ness? I think it must be?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And He seems to always be clear about whether He is addressing His Singular or dual nature, but, as we are not really our bodies, so is He not really His Universe? Bodies come and go, probably like the Universe does, but Being/ness is eternal ... and singular? So many verses quoted by others point to His singleness.

 

[TokiEl]

Regardless, even early Christians understood the Trinity was revealed by Christ and thus revealed in Christian scripture. Trying to find the Trinity in the Old Testament is, again, a historically very recent development to simply legitimise a contested doctrine.

Jesus Christ is God.

And if anybody got a problem with that... they can go to hell where Jesus Christ is not.

 

[Phithx]

God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. One God. Three 'persons'.
God the Father had full authority over God the Son while God the Son was on Earth.
The ROLE God the Father had at that time was one of more authority. That is clear.
But God the Son is still fully God while being incarnated human.
The roles they had at that time in no way changes that fact. That is also clear.

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority

2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

God the Father stated, “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear” (Is 45:23). The same exact description is also applied to Jesus (Phil 2:10-11).

The Bible teaches that “God” is judge (1 Sam 2:10; Ps 50:6; Ecc 12:14; many others). But so is Jesus (Jn 5:22, 27; 9:39; Acts 10:42; 2 Tim 4:1). Therefore He is God.

God the Father sits on His throne in heaven (1 Ki 22:19; Ps 11:4; 47:8). Jesus is on the same throne, too (Rev 7:17; 22:1, 3)

God the Father said, “besides me there is no savior” (Is 43:11; cf. 1 Tim 4:10). Yet Jesus is called the “savior” of mankind in passages like Luke 2:11 and many others.

2 Corinthians 13:14 - May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.

Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

JESUS HIMSELF took the name God used for Himself with Moses ... "Before Abraham was born, I AM". John 8:58. Jesus confirmed that He is eternal and that He is God. The jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God so they tried to kill Him for it.

John 14:9 - Jesus said "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

Mark 10:18 - "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone". Jesus wanted people to think about it. People called Him 'good'. He said that only God is good. He was telling them that He is indeed good and that He is God because He also confirmed that He is sinless - John 8:46 "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? I am telling the truth. Why don't you believe me?"

SON OF MAN - Jesus claims to be the fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14. Jesus says it over and over ... calling Himself the 'Son of Man'. Daniel 7:13-14 . 13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

The Jews knew He was claiming to be God - John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Only God is worshipped - Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

JESUS is prayed to - Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So Jesus was prayed to and worshipped. And Jesus allowed it.
See also Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38

GOD THE FATHER COMMANDS WORSHIP OF JESUS - Hebrews 1:6 . "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

According to the bible - Jesus is God. Believe the bible or not ... that's your choice.
But for those who say that scripture doesn't claim Jesus is God ... you are clearly incorrect.

All interesting points thank-you, but how does this verse make Him the Supreme Being? Worshiped, praised, exalted, deified, etc.: yes, but surely not the Supreme Being Himself?

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

[TokiEl]

All interesting points thank-you, but how does this verse make Him the Supreme Being? Worshiped, praised, exalted, deified, etc.: yes, but surely not the Supreme Being Himself?

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus Christ said that the Father is greater than Him.

So does that mean Jesus Christ is not God ? No ! It is crystal clear from both Testaments that God got an Associate... and that Associate Companion or Fellow is Him who was born on earth at a foretold point in time to atone for the sins of the world and destroy the works of the Devil also known as Allah.

Zechariah 13 7“Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion, (*)”
Says the LORD of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.

(*) Strong's H5997 - `amiyth (from a primitive root meaning to associate; companionship; hence (concretely) a comrade or kindred man:—another, fellow, neighbour.)



This one Companion and Associate is even in God's name.

God's name was originally written in the Proto-Sinitic script.

And God's name is a depiction of a person striking a nail into another person.​

 

[Lisa]

Thank-you for these comments. If I may, I'll add a tangent comment:

It seems accurate to say that we are Spirit/Soul Beings inhabiting physical humans/bodies: human+Beings (capital because Spirit is higher than physical).

So strictly speaking the correct way to introduce our dual selves would be "we" ... interestingly, just like queen Victoria did, et al.

And would it be fair to say that the Universe is akin to the Supreme Being as our bodies are akin to us Beings. At least an aspect of "in His image"?

In that case; is the King (Psalm 10:16) of the Universe addressing Himself as His Royal (dual) We in Genesis 1:26?

His physical creation has triple constituents, like eggs do ... which are eventually broken down into their individual parts, but can we say that that is true of the Supreme Being, or even the Spirit realm? Hard to know really?

The First Great Commandment may only be referring to Supreme Being/ness? I think it must be?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And He seems to always be clear about whether He is addressing His Singular or dual nature, but, as we are not really our bodies, so is He not really His Universe? Bodies come and go, probably like the Universe does, but Being/ness is eternal ... and singular? So many verses quoted by others point to His singleness.

I’m not sure what you mean by bodies come and go because when our bodies are done so are we..
We aren’t separate from our bodies and even in the age to come we will have our new bodies (Christians), so we will never be without a body. I think referring to ourselves as we is more than a little weird, I am Lisa, I wouldn’t be me without a body..I wouldn’t exist without it.

God on the other hand is one but three not two. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit...all talked about in the NT. I don’t see how anyone can be confused as to who the Us and Our are in genesis after reading the NT.

 

[Serveto]

Jesus Christ is God.

And if anybody got a problem with that... they can go to hell where Jesus Christ is not.

Thanks for so glibly clearing that up, or for at least somewhat humorously trying to do so. But, again, and depending upon which translation one prefers, if Jesus, as you say, is not, it sounds as though God may be in (pick a card) hell, Tartarus, Sheol, depths, the celestial basement, etc ...

"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (KJV, Psalms 139:8)

Question: in this case, who is the "Thou," and is Thou comprised of three persons of one substance, or something like that"?

 

[Stina]

that looks like a winged snake.

Maybe don't use this font in the future?
If this is how it was originally written though... I might need to reconsider my beliefs, LOL

 

[Glad 2 know]

When you think of an egg, do you also think of it’s three parts that make up the egg? It has a shell, the whites and the yolk, different parts to an egg but still one egg. When we look at the trinity in this way, we can start to understand what God is talking about when He is 3 but 1.

Also, the trinity isn’t a catholic teaching, it is a Christian teaching and you can read the Bible to see that it’s true. To be a Christian, yep, you must believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirt, otherwise you can’t really call yourself a Christian.

To be a Christian you have to believe, have faith in Yahweh and follow in the footsteps of his son Jesus. His Holy Spirit is his active force. You have to understand that God, Yahweh is his sole separate self and Jesus his son is his own separate self too. The holy spirit is not a person he has no name for he is just a force, an energy. What God used to create everything. They are three separate entities and yet they WORK together in harmony, much like a team.

 

[Phithx]

I’m not sure what you mean by bodies come and go because when our bodies are done so are we..
We aren’t separate from our bodies and even in the age to come we will have our new bodies (Christians), so we will never be without a body. I think referring to ourselves as we is more than a little weird, I am Lisa, I wouldn’t be me without a body..I wouldn’t exist without it.

God on the other hand is one but three not two. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit...all talked about in the NT. I don’t see how anyone can be confused as to who the Us and Our are in genesis after reading the NT.

Dear Lisa, Thank-you for your reply.

How do I explain to you what is essentially much easier for men to grasp than for women.

Women comprehend other things, but that we are not our bodies seems definitely much easier for men to comprehend. This picture gives a big clue https://deuteronomy4verse2.wordpress.com/2014/08/09/adams-apples-in-his-neck/

That's why all the Prophets and Disciples were men.

I'm not trying to insult you with the below quote; because men are not innocent in this Earth Prison transaction (Psalm 22:28), but I know that I'm not this body, and in my long years I haven't yet come across a woman that really gets that statement.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

When you can submit your opinion to a man's opinion - obviously you need to choose carefully - you should begin to have a wider comprehension.

 

[Serveto]

God on the other hand is one but three not two..

Thanks for clearing that up. The odd thing is, I almost, with the emphasis, in this case, on almost, understand this statement .