On the Trinity:

[Lisa]

Why can’t we read scripture as it is written? The scripture doesn’t say “in the beginning was Jesus Christ, and the word was with Jesus Christ etc etc” it says “in the beginning was the Word...”
Q. How did the heavens and the Earth and all things come to be? A. By the word of God
“By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.”- Psalms 33:6

Jesus Christ is indeed God, however the man Jesus Christ is not God. See our God has no beginning or end he wasn’t born and he didn’t die, he doesn’t need to grow/learn/sleep because he is all-knowing. The man Jesus Christ had to do all these things he was conceived in the womb of a virgin and died on the cross for our sins. What meaning would it have if the All-mighty God died on the cross for us? But he didn’t instead “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son”

The man Jesus Christ and the Father have the same name “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” — Hebrews 1:4

The Holy Spirit (which is God not a separate deity) was in Jesus Christ, when Jesus Christ spoke to other people they were never his own words, they were the words of the Father which dwelt in him, so it was God who said “before Abraham was born, I AM”
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.” ‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬

Jesus is known as the Word..who else is John speaking of here?

John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
​

Jesus can’t be both man and God..God can’t make Himself human if He didn’t want to? The God who created the heavens and the earth, can’t be a human..?

Mark‬ ‭10:27‬ ‭
Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”​

‭‭
Its only God who could fulfill His law, we couldn’t. He became man because it was man who broke the law and Jesus became our kinsman redeemer.

You sure are twisting scripture...
The Holy Spirit is seperate..Jesus said He had to go so the Holy Spirit would come..He is separate from Jesus, otherwise He would just say, I go to the Father, the Holy Spirit will stay here.

John 16:7
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go I will send Him to you.
​

Jesus who was also man was letting us know that like Jesus as man, we need to follow the Lord. Probably why He is always talking about following what God says, the sin nature wants to work in Him to...otherwise satan’s temptations of Jesus would be a worthless act. He always had to be careful and do only what God wanted..which is a good lesson for us to learn too.

As for saying before Abraham was born, I am, Jesus was talking about Himself, which also is corroborated with John 1 where we are told Jesus is the Word.

 

[Jayda]

Jesus is known as the Word..who else is John speaking of here?

John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭​

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

​

Jesus can’t be both man and God..God can’t make Himself human if He didn’t want to? The God who created the heavens and the earth, can’t be a human..?

Mark‬ ‭10:27‬ ‭​

Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”​

‭‭
Its only God who could fulfill His law, we couldn’t. He became man because it was man who broke the law and Jesus became our kinsman redeemer.

You sure are twisting scripture...
The Holy Spirit is seperate..Jesus said He had to go so the Holy Spirit would come..He is separate from Jesus, otherwise He would just say, I go to the Father, the Holy Spirit will stay here.

John 16:7​

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go I will send Him to you.​

​

Jesus who was also man was letting us know that like Jesus as man, we need to follow the Lord. Probably why He is always talking about following what God says, the sin nature wants to work in Him to...otherwise satan’s temptations of Jesus would be a worthless act. He always had to be careful and do only what God wanted..which is a good lesson for us to learn too.

As for saying before Abraham was born, I am, Jesus was talking about Himself, which also is corroborated with John 1 where we are told Jesus is the Word.

Lol a scripture twister?! I’ve only used the scripture and expounded little on it because it really speaks for its self, you have taken scripture changed and added words numerous times, you continue to describe something that scripture does not support and add your own personal beliefs (Jesus being fully God and fully man, God being three persons etc). I said the Holy Spirit is God because that’s what scripture tells us: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” ‭‭2 Corinthians 2:17

I enjoyed this discussion with you but to continue on this topic would be quite pointless and time wasting for us both. I hope God opens your eyes as he did with mine and you come to the truth that we neither did Jesus worship a schizophrenic God. I also urge you to research other pagan religions (Greeks, babylonians, Egyptians, Romans) and note how they worshiped a triad of Gods and maybe you will start to get an idea of where this deadly deception came from

 

[Lisa]

Lol a scripture twister?! I’ve only used the scripture and expounded little on it because it really speaks for its self, you have taken scripture changed and added words numerous times, you continue to describe something that scripture does not support and add your own personal beliefs (Jesus being fully God and fully man, God being three persons etc). I said the Holy Spirit is God because that’s what scripture tells us: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” ‭‭2 Corinthians 2:17

I enjoyed this discussion with you but to continue on this topic would be quite pointless and time wasting for us both. I hope God opens your eyes as he did with mine and you come to the truth that we neither did Jesus worship a schizophrenic God. I also urge you to research other pagan religions (Greeks, babylonians, Egyptians, Romans) and note how they worshiped a triad of Gods and maybe you will start to get an idea of where this deadly deception came from

Read the whole Bible to understand John 1:1-4? When John 1:14 answers who John is talking about...and the word became flesh.

Yep, have read the Bible multiple times, cover to cover, studied the Bible constantly and have even taught Sunday School...that and I have the Holy Spirit who teaches me.

I have not added to scripture, I’ve quoted scripture and added more scripture to back up what I’m saying like John 1:1-4 and John 1:14.

You however are trying to argue that the Holy Spirit was in Jesus and I have don‘t think you understand what Hebrews 1:4. However, Hebrews can be a hard book to understand.

Gosh, I really hope that I never see God the way you do...that would be quite a drop for me....and I don’t want to fall from the faith.

Why would I need to research pagan religions? I only need to know about God and what He says is true, I think when Christians research other things they can be tempted to believe them and fall away from the faith. I know where deception started...

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field.​

It’s too bad you’re already done..we were just getting started

 

[floss]

Trinitarians admit that there is no way to understand the Trinity and it's impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.

The disgusting Christians at Christianity.com says this...
All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic. Those words may sound harsh, but they represent the judgment of ...

This is the doctrine in a nutshell...

Basic Definition: Christians worship one God who eternally exists in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, all of whom are fully God, all of whom are equal. Jesus is both God the Father and the holy spirit. The holy spirit is both God and Jesus. God is both the holy spirit and Jesus. Etc. The three are all knowing, all powerful, and everywhere. (Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent)

Then, they illogically go on to say Jesus is not God, Jesus is not the holy spirit, the holy spirit is not Jesus, the holy spirit is not God, etc. I'm not kidding, as you will see in the author's page in the link below

It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion....and that's the way the devil wanted it!​

Trinity is right up there with pre-trib with fabricated and contradictory teachings. Trinity is a Catholic doctrine devised in the 4th century. Yet Protestants who have accepted it have nothing good to say about Catholicism and even call Rome the whore of Babylon and a cult.

I've studied the doctrine enough and would put myself up to a debate with anyone on the subject of Trinity. The problem with blogs and forums is that my replies get removed and I get banned for being non-Trinitarian. Once they see they've been debunked, they send me on my way along with my replies. I have made my mind up on the Trinity doctrine.
I believe Jesus when he said the Father is greater. I believe him when he said he doesn't know the day or hour of his return. I believe him when he says he can do nothing on his own. I also believe him when he said blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not. If they were the same person blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other. Other issues I have with Trinity is IF the holy spirit is a separate person "why doesn't the holy spirit have a name, and why isn't he found in or around the Throne of God?"

Here's a list of scriptures Trinitarians use to support the doctrine.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
That verse simply states that Jesus existed before Abraham and nothing else.

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
It's absurd to claim a co-equal trinity is implied and several trinitarians do not believe this verse identifies Jesus is God.

The issue here is punctuation. Paul did not use modern types of punctuation. It was added by Trinitarian translators wherever they wanted to prop up their already preconceived belief of the Trinity. The verse can be read like this...

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

That's another verse that's completely distorted by Trinitarians. The subject of the verse is, "him that is true." So let me clarify this for you.

The word 'even'..."EVEN in his Son Jesus Christ" is NOT in the original text. It was added by the KJV translators. The word IN..."even IN his Son Jesus Christ" is the word BY AND WITH. It's worded like this in the interlinear and the way it should be understood...

We know the Son of God is come and has given us an understanding, that we may know the true one, (God the Father) and we are in him that is the true one, (God the Father) BY his son Jesus Christ.

What is being said here is that for us to be in “him that is true” we have to go through the Son, “him that is true” is the father, and the only way to be in the Father is through the son.

Jesus says the same thing in John 17:3...
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is biggest trinitarian cop-out there is..
That is because Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man at the same time.

They answer questions by quoting a tenet of the Trinity doctrine. If Jesus is BOTH fully ‘God and fully man AT THE SAME TIME’, he would know the day and hour of his return. Either he knew, or he forgot, or he didn’t know!
Then they use Colossians 2:9 says: “For in him the whole fullness of deity DWELLS bodily.”

The word ‘dwells’ is in present tense, so Paul is referring to the resurrected Christ. The KJV uses the word ‘Godhead’ which is better translated ‘deity or divinity’ (or Godship) and it’s in the singular. That doesn’t support a triunity of beings. The present tense means Paul is speaking of the risen Christ. i.e. the spirit Christ received in the resurrection. This does NOT refer to deity of his earthly body. Neither does the word ‘deity’ infer a trinity or that Jesus is fully God the Father.
Colossians 2:9 means the abundance of divinity dwells in Christ resurrected heavenly body. God has given to Jesus all the plentitude and abundance of godship and mightiness so that he “is the head of all principality and power.” This in no way implies a Trinity.
(KJV)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:”

Triitarians say Jesus is omniscient like God is in John 16:30.
John 16:30 “Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.”
The word ‘things’ is not in the original text, and the interlinear words it like this…
“We perceive that you perceive all.” The context is that his disciples finally saw and understood that Jesus came forth from the Father. They no longer doubted Jesus came from God and believed in his divine mission. By no means does this imply that Jesus is omniscient or that he’s God the Father. Jesus does NOT know everything God the Father knows.

We should also take into account Paul’s usage of the word ‘pas’ or ALL. ‘Pas’ is often used in a limited sense. It’s actually the word ‘individually.’ When it is used without the article, which is the case here, it means Jesus knows all types and a variety of things.” Note: “We are sure” and “knowest” are the same Greek word eidō.
It could be interpreted like this,
“Now we see (are convinced) that you perceive all types of things and no man needs to ask if we believe that you came from God.”
They quote Luke 2:52 in an attempt to prove Jesus is omniscient.
“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”
That verse disproves the Trinity doctrine! If Jesus is fully God, there’s no need for him “TO INCREASE” in wisdom and stature! Trinitarians refuse to see their illogical contradictions.
The word ‘favor’ is the word GRACE. God’s good pleasure was upon Christ. If Christ was “fully God” there would be no need for him to “fully develop.” The most illogical presumption of Trinitarians is that Jesus is “fully God and fully man”.
One Trinitarian link makes these contradictory, illogical, and incoherent statements…
“But the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit and the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.”
…”that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.”
“With respect to his divine nature he knows all things and with respect to his human nature he does not know all things. Both of these things are true at the same time with respect to his distinct natures.”
As well as this….
“Jesus can say that the Father is greater than him in John 14:28 because he is fully human as we are and deity is greater than humanity.”
Those statement don’t confront or answer the questions non-trinitarians asked. Too often the trinitarian cop-out response is, “both of these things are true at the same time with respect to his distinct natures.” If that were true, then Jesus would know the day or hour of his return!
Jesus said, “The Father is Greater.” Either He IS or He ISN’T! Jesus said the Father IS greater. I believe Jesus!
Trinitarian's say....
“With respect to his divine nature, he is equal with God (Heb 1:2-3)”
KJV…
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
That would be a fabrication of the Trinitarian KJV interpreters of the passage which has a host of mistakes. Look at the verse…
Hebrews 1:2-3 comes from Psalm 45:6 and is completely misrepresented in the KJV of Hebrews 1:8.
Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
The Jewish Publication Society reads it like this from the Septuagint…
“Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
(which may be a reference to Solomon)
NOTE: In Hebrews 1:8, the words, “He saith” is an addition of the Trinitarian KJV translators.
In the interlinear it worded like this…
Yet toward the Son the Throne of you God is forever a rod of rigteousness of your kingdom.
Or like this…
Hebrews 1:8….
“But with regard to the son, the Throne of God is forever and ever a scepter of his righteousness.
That verse does not say Jesus is God NOR does it imply a Trinity whatsoever.
Jesus is never called “God the Son, and he is never called Almighty God.” 1 Corinthians 8 shows a distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord. They are NOT the same person or equal in any way….
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 1 Corinthians 8:5,6.
Trinitarians quote Philippians 2:6-7 and John 1:1-3, 14.
QUOTE VERSE

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Trinitarians can’t agree on the interpretation of that word or the passage. Most trinitarians admit the word "morphē" describes the EXTERNAL appearance or GLORY of Christ. NOT his internal attributes!

John 1:1-3, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
V. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

There are 70 ways to interpret John 1:1-3. The word "WORD" is 'saying.' Vines says, "a word or saying," also means, "an account which one gives by word of mouth.
It's more logical to interpret the word "WORD" as the speech of God, NOT JESUS!
According to Thayer's the word WITH means, "to the advantage of," toward, or "pertaining to" or "nearness at."
...and the word was with God.

Better understood like it is in the interlinear, "and God was the spoken word."
In the beginning was God's spoken Word, and the spoken word was to God's advantage, and God was the spoken word. V. 14 And the spoken word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Trinitarian's also use Joel 2:32 and Romans 10:13: to say Paul applies the divine name YHWH.
Romans 10:13 doesn’t use the word Yahweh. The word ‘Lord’ in Roman’s 10:13 is the word “kyrios” and it is NOT the Greek equivalent to Yahweh! To say such a thing is a complete Trinitarian fabrication. The context in Romans 10:13 is not Jesus but God the Father anyway. The word Lord/ kyrios is used 748 times in the NT and it implies a variety of ‘masters’. Like here in Mathew 10:24-25,

“The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord/kyrios. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord/kyrios.”

Jesus is called “god” in the bible. The KJV errantly capitalizes it. But, so is Satan, angels, Moses, people, the spiritual leaders of Israel, and pagan deities.

The true Jesus is isn’t fully God. He said so himself! He also said,
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus also said,
“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”

“Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.”

Trinitarians also use John 5:18-19 to say Jesus is equal to God, but a simple lok at the text shows different.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The Jews sought to kill Jesus because he said God was his Father. Their presumption was by saying that their presecption was that Jesus was equating himself with God. But look at Jesus' reply, he rebukes them for saying such a thing...

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Verses that debunk the trinity that show the doctrine is a major contradiction...

John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

There is no trinity for many simple reasons. The 'Holy Spirit' as described by Trinitarians is not found in or around the throne of God in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6 .

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Welcome Back Scimitar!

 

[Infinityloop]

Welcome Back Scimitar!

?

 

[grateful servant]

Welcome Back Scimitar!

 

[elsbet]

@Jayda

​

God is the Father, God is also the Holy Spirit because they are the same thing, not two separate deity’s.​

​

No one is claiming they are two, separate deities.

I don't believe you are well-versed in the bible-- you don't seem to know much, beyond what you've gleaned from google's anti-Christian offerings, loaded with bullet points. I'm basing that judgment the following...

... there was a period before his birth where he didn’t exist.​

That is found nowhere in the bible.

I'm surprised you said it tbh, since you don't believe anything that is implied; only that which is clearly stated. And that ^^ isn't even implied.

The opposite, however, *is* clearly stated:

​

Spoiler

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it... And the Word became flesh...

746. arché ►​

Strong's Concordance​

arché: beginning, origin​

Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ​

Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')​

Definition: beginning, origin​

​

746 arxḗ –​

properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest​

beginning, origin;​

a. used absolutely, of the beginning of all things: ἐν ἀρχή, John 1:1f (Genesis 1:1)...​

​

Obviously, you are free to believe what you like-- but the bible does not support your beliefs.

 

[Axl888]

My friend,
Indeed we have to believe on Jesus Christ but this alone won’t save us from the lake of fire. If we believe on him but don’t obey his commandments then our faith is vain, even devils believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but they are still damned. Faith alone won’t save us, Jesus Christ said “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”.

It is through baptism that our old man is buried (who was a sinner and walked according to the flesh) and it is through baptism whereby we put on the new man who walks in the spirit as a saint. “Know ye not, that so many of us aswere baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”- Romans 6:3-5.It is through baptism that we come to be in Christ(Galatians 3:27). In order for us to inherit the kingdom of heaven we must walk in repentance, holiness and righteousness, we must be perfect!(1 Peter 1:15-17, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Philippians 1:11, James 1:4)

The false churches will tell you that “you can’t be perfect” or “you’ll always be a sinner” but if that was the case you couldn’t inherit the kingdom of God. See Jesus himself said“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” and many scriptures state the simple fact that the end of a sinner is hell “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”Revelation 21:8

We will fall and sin at times, but what’s important is we quickly get back up, and with a true repented heart we confess our sin to God who is just to forgive us, our sin will then be covered by the blood of Christ and blotted out so that we can continue to stand in the presence of God in holiness. A sinner is someone who sins say in day out, they are not truly remorseful of their sins, they are not conscious of many of their sins and they don’t turn from their sins. They may think by telling God they have sinned they are forgiven, but it is just mere words their heart is still corrupt and they still have a reprobate mind.

I do believe faith alone in Jesus Christ will save everyone from the lake of fire. Faith will manifest good works, therefore people with true faith in Jesus Christ/God will follow his commandments. And what are His commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40 - "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

People who do not follow His commandments do not have faith in Him, they can lie to everyone and to themselves, but not to God.

Edit: (P.S. so sorry, I honestly forgot about my last post, anyhow, this is really my last post on this thread)

 

[floss]

I do believe faith alone in Jesus Christ will save everyone from the lake of fire. Faith will manifest good works, therefore people with true faith in Jesus Christ/God will follow his commandments. And what are His commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40 - "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

People who do not follow His commandments do not have faith in Him, they can lie to everyone and to themselves, but not to God.

Edit: (P.S. so sorry, I honestly forgot about my last post, anyhow, this is really my last post on this thread)

If you HAVE to follow His commandments to have faith in Him, then it's not faith alone. Not every saved born again Christian 100% follow His commandments (they should).

 

[bible_student]

'prince of peace'..since when was Jesus a PRINCE?

Jesus is identified as the prince of the kings of the earth, in the book of Revelation.

Revelation
1:1 The Revelation of Christ Jesus, which God gave unto him,...

1:5 And from Christ Jesus, [who is] the Faithful Witness, [and] the first (of the Living) incarnated among the "Dead", and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

God said to Daniel, "Michael your prince" in Daniel 10:21

In the Koran:

2:97. Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's Will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
2:98. Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
2:99. We have sent down to thee manifest Signs (ayat) and none reject them but those who are perverse.

43:74. The sinners will be in the Punishment of Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for ever):
43:75. In no way will the (Punishment) be lightened for them, and overwhelmed by despair will they be there.
43:76. In no way shall We be unjust to them: but it is they who have been unjust themselves.
43:77. They will cry: "O Michael! Would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide (Enoch 40:8)!"
43:78. Verily We have brought the Truth to you: but most of you have a hatred for Truth.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Jesus is identified as the prince of the kings of the earth, in the book of Revelation.

Revelation
1:1 The Revelation of Christ Jesus, which God gave unto him,...

1:5 And from Christ Jesus, [who is] the Faithful Witness, [and] the first (of the Living) incarnated among the "Dead", and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

God said to Daniel, "Michael your prince" in Daniel 10:21

In the Koran:

2:97. Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's Will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
2:98. Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
2:99. We have sent down to thee manifest Signs (ayat) and none reject them but those who are perverse.

43:74. The sinners will be in the Punishment of Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for ever):
43:75. In no way will the (Punishment) be lightened for them, and overwhelmed by despair will they be there.
43:76. In no way shall We be unjust to them: but it is they who have been unjust themselves.
43:77. They will cry: "O Michael! Would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide (Enoch 40:8)!"
43:78. Verily We have brought the Truth to you: but most of you have a hatred for Truth.

1) Revelation 1:5, the word used is Nagid in hebrew, obv we dont have the greek, but gouing off the context of the word Nagid, in it's context refers to the rabbinic position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagid
In Daniel 10:21 the word used is
12 And at that time shall Micha’el stand, the Sar HaGadol who standeth over the banim of thy people
Hagadol means 'captain' or 'chief'

2) 43:77. They will cry: "O Michael! Would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide (Enoch 40:8)!"
the enoch reference is irrelevant. The actual text says MALIK

(1) And they will cry: "O malik (Keeper of Hell)! Let your Lord make an end of us." He will say: "Verily, you shall abide forever."
(سورة الزخرف, Az-Zukhruf, Chapter #43, Verse #77)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalik

 

[bible_student]

1) Revelation 1:5, the word used is Nagid in hebrew, obv we dont have the greek, but gouing off the context of the word Nagid, in it's context refers to the rabbinic position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagid

The New Testament was not written in Hebrew.

758 [e]
archōn
ἄρχων
ruler

3588 [e]
tōn
τῶν
of the

935 [e]
basileōn
βασιλέων
kings

3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
of the

1093 [e]
gēs
γῆς .
earth

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-5.htm

In Daniel 10:21 the word used is
12 And at that time shall Micha’el stand, the Sar HaGadol who standeth over the banim of thy people
Hagadol means 'captain' or 'chief'

That's quoting Daniel 12:1:

12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).

1419 [e]
hag·gā·ḏō·wl,
הַגָּד֗וֹל
great

8269 [e]
haś·śar
הַשַּׂ֣ר
the prince

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-1.htm

2) 43:77. They will cry: "O Michael! Would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide (Enoch 40:8)!"
the enoch reference is irrelevant. The actual text says MALIK

(1) And they will cry: "O malik (Keeper of Hell)! Let your Lord make an end of us." He will say: "Verily, you shall abide forever."
(سورة الزخرف, Az-Zukhruf, Chapter #43, Verse #77)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalik

2) Compare with :-

Matthew
3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into The Fire.
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable Fire.

John the baptist said he (Christ) has his fan in his hand and he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable Fire.

Jesus then spoke and gave further warnings in Matthew 5:22, 7:19, 10:28, 11:23, etc.

 

[AspiringSoul]

That's quoting Daniel 12:1:

12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).

1419 [e]
hag·gā·ḏō·wl,
הַגָּד֗וֹל
great

8269 [e]
haś·śar
הַשַּׂ֣ר
the prince

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-1.htm


2) Compare with :-

Matthew
3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into The Fire.
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable Fire.

John the baptist said he (Christ) has his fan in his hand and he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable Fire.

Jesus then spoke and gave further warnings in Matthew 5:22, 7:19, 10:28, 11:23, etc.

they're different entities..
Michael, Jesus, Maalik
Maalik is the angel who guards HELL.

 

[bible_student]

they're different entities..
Michael, Jesus, Maalik

Michael, Jesus and Maalik refer to the same Being.

Maalik is the angel who guards HELL.

Agreed.

Psalm 16:10 For Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (planet Earth); neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 22 (See Matthew 27)
22:28 For the Kingdom [is] the "I AM"'s: and He [is] the Governor among the nations (of this prison planet).
22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before Him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
22:30 A seed shall serve Him; it (the human body Jesus) shall be accounted to the Lord (Christ) for a generation (40 years).
22:31 They shall come, and shall declare His Righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done [this].

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with "Clouds"; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and its image, and receive [its] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and its image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of its name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones: here [are] they that KEEP the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[bible_student]

Psalm 110

110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
110:2 The "I AM" shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
110:3 Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the Morning (Star): thou hast the dew of thy youth.
110:4 The "I AM" hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, He shall fill [the places] with the dead bodies; He shall wound the heads over great countries.
110:7 He shall drink of the brook in The Way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

The Lord's enemies abide in Hell (the prison-planet Earth).

69:33 For the "I AM" heareth the poor, and despiseth not His prisoners (all of the people on this prison planet).

146:7 Which executeth Judgment for the oppressed: Which giveth food to the hungry. The "I AM" looseth the prisoners:
146:8 The "I AM" openeth [the eyes of] the blind: the "I AM" raiseth them that are bowed down: the "I AM" loveth the righteous:
146:9 The "I AM" preserveth the strangers; He relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked He turneth upside down.

Wisdom 40:1. Great travail is created for every man, and an heavy yoke is upon the sons of Adam, from the day that they go out of their mother's womb, till the day that they return to the mother of all things (Gen. 3:17).

 

[Artful Revealer]

Who is God talking about here...

Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”​

‭‭

The Divine Council, Heavenly Hosts, 70 sons and daughters, etc.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Trinity is right up there with pre-trib with fabricated and contradictory teachings. Trinity is a Catholic doctrine devised in the 4th century.

Incorrect. The Trinity is the understanding of Christian mystery revealed in Christian scripture which states that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
That verse simply states that Jesus existed before Abraham and nothing else.

This verse has metaphysical implications. Firstly, you say that "Jesus existed before Abraham and nothing else". As far as commonly is understood, Jesus was born in year 0 and died 33AD, right? What then do you make of Jesus having existed before Abraham when he was supposedly born more than 1,500 years later?

Secondly, next to John 1:1-3, the verse contains probably the two most important words of the entire scripture. Jesus didn't say "Before Abraham was, I was." He said "Before Abraham was, I am."

Abraham was because Abraham was a mortal subject to time and was no longer with them. That Jesus did not use the simple past tense for Himself, indicates that He is not a mortal subject to time, but a transcendent, eternal being. The nuance Christians need to keep in mind here, is that it is the Logos speaking, the Word of God, not the flesh; the flesh is a product in Time, the Word exists outside of Time.

They quote Luke 2:52 in an attempt to prove Jesus is omniscient.
“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”
That verse disproves the Trinity doctrine! If Jesus is fully God, there’s no need for him “TO INCREASE” in wisdom and stature! Trinitarians refuse to see their illogical contradictions.

I agree that this verse is wrongly used, if it is, to explain Jesus' omniscience. Luke 2 concerns His life prior to this event, where Jesus, the boy/man, was still maturing, lest people expected Him to start His ministry from the cradle. His ministry started with His Baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove. This is the moment when Jesus, born of the essence of His mother in the flesh, in Time, and the essence of the Father in the spirit, before Time (Athanasian Creed) became Christ, the Primordial Man, filled with the Holy Spirit.

Prior to this moment, Jesus lived a life like a mortal human, growing and learning like everyone else.

Jesus said, “The Father is Greater.” Either He IS or He ISN’T! Jesus said the Father IS greater. I believe Jesus!

There is nothing contradictory to the Trinity here, only to a certain interpretation of the Trinity which elevates coequalness to anything other than the shared essence or nature of the persons in the Trinity. That the Son is but a portion of the whole (Tertullian) doesn't strip Him of his godly nature. The Son is the Word of God and the Word of God is God. If you hear my voice through a phone, that voice and the words you hear are me just as much as the person behind the phone is me. I'm just more than my voice. (I am "greater" than my voice.)

Jesus also said, “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Verses that debunk the trinity that show the doctrine is a major contradiction...

This is actually scriptural proof that Jesus is God. Can you do nothing without the Father? Do you only do what the Father does? Does anyone here or anyone you know?

Does a playable character in a video game do anything if the gamer isn't giving any inputs on the controller? That the Son, Jesus Christ, would do only when or what the Father does implies that He is the father, just as Infinityloop, who wouldn't do unless you made it do, is you. But, Infinityloop is but a portion of you. You are "greater" than Infinityloop.

John 1:1-3, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
V. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

There are 70 ways to interpret John 1:1-3. The word "WORD" is 'saying.' Vines says, "a word or saying," also means, "an account which one gives by word of mouth.
It's more logical to interpret the word "WORD" as the speech of God, NOT JESUS!
According to Thayer's the word WITH means, "to the advantage of," toward, or "pertaining to" or "nearness at."
...and the word was with God.

Better understood like it is in the interlinear, "and God was the spoken word."
In the beginning was God's spoken Word, and the spoken word was to God's advantage, and God was the spoken word. V. 14 And the spoken word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Not bad.

The doctrine of the Trinity has no greater foe than the Hebrew Scriptures. ... Missionaries undertake a daunting and unholy task as they scour the Jewish Scriptures in search of any text that can be construed as consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

Agreed. The triune nature of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is a Christian revelation. It will not be found in the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[Lisa]

The Divine Council, Heavenly Hosts, 70 sons and daughters, etc.

What are ya talking about Art?

 

[Artful Revealer]

What are ya talking about Art?

The reason why it says "Us" and "Our" in Gen 1:26.

 

[Lisa]

The reason why it says "Us" and "Our" in Gen 1:26.

You really think that?