“Don’t force your help on people who are not willing to change”

[Colonel Valerio]

It’s just not the correct interpretation.

Finally, I have done what @Gnostic Christian Bishop has tried to do, get you to admit the immorality of your beliefs, was that so hard?

 

[Lisa]

Well when I make rational and logical points and you have no answer for them other than regurgitating traditions of men and the church, then yes that is actually loosing the argument.

No that’s just me trying to get you see the truth and the truth is what the Bible has been traditionally known to say. There is no new way to see the Bible.

I want you to realize that the pagan tradition of eternal torment is not biblical and that a loving God would never punish without the motivation of correction and redemption.

It’s not pagan..

Matthew‬ ‭25:46‬ ‭
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.​

‭‭

Not you. I don't know anything about your personal life so I don't know if it applies to you or not.

So why did you mention it?

 

[Lisa]

Finally, I have done what @Gnostic Christian Bishop has tried to do, get you to admit the immorality of your beliefs, was that so hard?

When did I do that? I was talking about Todd’s beliefs.

 

[Lisa]

No lol not even close

Kind of sounds like it.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

When did I do that? I was talking about Todd’s beliefs.

I called Todd’s belief a moral interpretation. You said “just not the correct one”. This implies Todd’s interpretation is moral, just not correct. I don’t have time to teach you English.

 

[Lisa]

I called Todd’s belief a moral interpretation. You said “just not the correct one”. This implies Todd’s interpretation is moral, just not correct. I don’t have time to teach you English.

He can believe he has a moral interpretation..it’s just not the correct one.

 

[Eternal Salvation]

No that’s just me trying to get you see the truth and the truth is what the Bible has been traditionally known to say. There is no new way to see the Bible.

It’s not pagan..

Matthew‬ ‭25:46‬ ‭​

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.​

‭‭

So why did you mention it?

That's literally what I was trying to explain to him but some Christians just... I don't even know why he thinks no one will go to eternal punishment

 

[Lisa]

That's literally what I was trying to explain to him but some Christians just... I don't even know why he thinks no one will go to eternal punishment

Have you heard of this..

1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

That is what happened to Todd.
‭‭‭

 

[DevaWolf]

He can believe he has a moral interpretation..it’s just not the correct one.

Who told you what the correct one is then? Aren't you both praying to the same Jesus?

 

[DavidSon]

Actually what I wrote is contradicting everything this writer stated, I am not sure how you did not pick up on that.

The Substitution Theology is 100% directly related to the power of transformation, it is THAT which gives us the power to leave Sin.

If you have not been Born Again by believing in the Gospel which is what the Substitution Theology is, then you literally have zero power over Sin, none. You will and are 100% ruled by your Flesh and have absolutely no ability to overcome your Flesh. This is not only able to be testified by everyone who has ever been Born Again but is also Scripture.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Only by walking in the Spirit, which only come by believing in the Life Death and Resurrection of Christ, aka the Substitution Theology, can one NOT fulfill the lust of the Flesh.

Therefore the Gospel, the Substitution Theology is directly and completely the essence behind overcoming Sin...



Well what does Scripture say about that?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

The word in Greek means the reward, but in a negative context would literally mean the penalty of sin is Death.

And if you read that Chapter most of it is about how one needs to believe in Christs Substitution to be given the Spirit and that because we have died and resurrected with Christ we no longer are indebted to do the will of the Flesh,.

Rom 6;3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.



The Gospel proper is literally the Life Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. That we deserve Death and Hell because of our Sins but God loved us so much that He sent His Only Begotten Son to live up to the Law we cant, who then laid down His life and took our Sins upon Himself so that we who deserve Death and Hell are offered Grace, and Eternal Life by Faith in Him. And on the 3rd He Resurrected showing that His Sacrifice was accepted and Atonement was made and Eternal Life was secured.

If you ever want to get into the Kingdom then THAT is what you need to believe, THAT is the Gospel...



Of course people long for the teachings of Jesus, but your next statement is completely wrong.



Well I am not sure if it is your intention but Peter nor Paul are figures of the RCC. Peter literally is the first person to Preach the Gospel, look it up in Acts 2, guess what He preaches?

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

The Life Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ...



Scripture is needed to know God, you can say anything you want but the writings of Paul in the New Testament is Scripture and is there to teach you about God Himself. It is a foolish person who says they want to know more about someone and then willfully rejects the Books He gave them to know Him better.



What exactly do you personally want to discuss then? I love to discuss and talk about the Works and Words of Jesus!



I am sure that Christianity will continue to fall away from the basic doctrines that it once possessed, that is literally what the Scriptures say, however these are doctrines that have been since the beginning of the Church.



I just wonder if you yourself have actually picked up the Bible and read it. The things you have said in this thread and the person you quoted from make me seriously doubt you actually have read it or like I stated have had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ.

You have made the statement before that Jesus never said He died for our Sins, but He point blank, straight up said it VERBATIM.

If you make that statement again it is clear you really do not care what Jesus did say and want to create a Jesus of your own desire and mind instead of the real Jesus who VERBATIM says He came to die and shed His Blood for our Sins:

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Jesus DIED for our Sins and Jesus DIED so that we can enter into the Kingdom. You will never get into the Kingdom unless you drink from the cup He passed to the Disciples that contained His Blood for the remission of sins.

Any other way is a lie and false, I hope one day you come to believe in the Gospel, the Life Death and Resurrection of Christ and partake of the cup of His Blood for the Remission of your Sins...

I think you and I have already agreed to disagree on other subjects related to our views on God, but since you replied first I want to give another response. It's a blessing we have an open space at VC to challenge each others beliefs. Not to try and crush one another's faith, but to make it stronger.

You need to take a step forward and look at how indoctrinated you are by the Romans. If there's a question about devotion to someone who killed and persecuted the first Christians, your only response is further excerpts of the letters of Paul of Tarsus. It concerns me that your life's energy is built on worshiping the thoughts of Paul. Some mainstream Christians should really be calling themselves Paulenes. You can have respect for the Bible but it isn't meant to be worshiped- only GOD is.

Sorry to be rude but anyone who repeats the phrase "you must be born again" in every message isn't reborn spiritually. Jesus didn't repeat Himself like a drone. He had fresh ideas, new ways of imparting wisdom. A passage that lit up minds of the ancient world and retold for 2000 years has kind of lost it's power. This is another example of following the teachings of foreign men such as creepy John Darby or John Wesley; they have nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus.

Mainstream Christians need to be reminded what the true Gospel is:

"In Christianity, the gospel (Greek: εὐαγγέλιον, translit. euangélion; Old English: gōdspel; Latin: ēvangelium Latin pronunciation: [e.vanˈd͡ʒeː.li.um]), or the Good News, is the news of the coming of the Kingdom of God (Mark 1:14-15). The message of good news is described as a narrative in the four canonical gospels."

And compare to Paul's Gospel:

"The message of good news is described as theology in many of the New Testament letters. It relates to the saving acts of God due to the work of Jesus on the cross and Jesus' resurrection from the dead which bring reconciliation ("atonement") between people and God. The apostle Paul's gospel is of Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection to restore people's relationship with God. It may also include the descent of the Holy Spirit upon believers and the second coming of Jesus."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_gospel

How about we start actually quoting and imitating the man you say was God? Like, leave your family and walk the country, sleeping in the woods outside of town. No food, no money. Jesus was an ascetic, remember? Any Christian followers ever lay down right in the dirt and sleep under the stars? I can say it's beautiful. Why aren't more Christians ministering in the slums, the hospitals, the homeless shelters? The anti-war and human rights activists are far more "Christian" than the philosophers I read online. Why are people debating Christology instead of combating the satanic doctrines of Jesus's murderers?

I'm saying be in the religion "of" Christ, not "about" Christ. Praise God

 

[Lisa]

Who told you what the correct one is then? Aren't you both praying to the same Jesus?

From reading the Bible, I know who is correct. His sounds alright until you read the Bible and then you find out that’s not what the Bible actually says.

No, I don’t think we are.

 

[Todd]

That's literally what I was trying to explain to him but some Christians just... I don't even know why he thinks no one will go to eternal punishment

The greek word that is translated as "eternal" in many of your english bibles is the greek word "aiónios"

It is clear to anyone who does honest research that "aionios" means "pertaining to the ages". It is where the english word "eon" is derived from. A long but finite period of time. A thorough survey of the ancient usage of the greek word "aionios" clearly reveals it always refers to a dimension of finite time. Since time is part of the temporal creation we exist in right now, it's clear that "aionios" did not mean "eternity" in the original texts. The correct greek word for the concept of eternity is "Aidios". This word is never used to describe either the life that is promised to believers or the punishment for unbelievers.

This is solid proof that the original texts of the bible never said that punishment for unbelievers is "eternal".
There is a consistent thread of biblical scholars and church leaders throughout history that have taught and defended the Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis...the doctrine of the reconcilation of all mankind to God the Father. There is proof of the existence of the doctrine from the earlist church records through the modern era.

To the believer who knows that God's mercy is unlimited and truly believes that God is able to do more than we can ever ask or imagine, being confronted with the doctrine of Apokatastasis is good news, worth rejoicing about. It is only those who are bound by the religious indoctrination and the traditions of men, that when confronted with the doctrine of Apokatastasis, do not rejoice at the goodness and greatness of God.

When I was first confronted with the doctrine of Apokatastasis my spirit rejoiced, because it resonated with my Spirit and confirmed and added to the belief that God is Good and greater than I could ever have imagined him to be. It is true after the initial reaction of rejoicing that church dogma and indoctrination that I received since becoming a believer rose up and caused me to briefly question and doubt that it could really be true. This only increased my hunger and desire to study and research the doctrine and the biblical origins of it. The more I study it, the more I marvel at the Glory of the God I serve and rejoice in what he has in store for all of us.

 

[Lisa]

When I was first confronted with the doctrine of Apokatastasis my spirit rejoiced,

Could your spirit have been wrong?

 

[Todd]

Could your spirit have been wrong?

That is why I took the time to thoroughly research and study it. My research and my study confirmed that the leap in my spirit was right. I know beyond a shadow of doubt that the original texts do not say the punishment of unbelievers is eternal. Since quoting scriptures that use the English word "eternal" is the only defense that supporters of the doctrine of eternal damnation can provide I have no reason to entertain the possibility that God would sadisticly resurrect an unbeliever just so he can torture them for eternity with no purpose other than vengence. The "justice" argument doesn't fly because God clearly said the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.

 

[justjess]

Kind of sounds like it.

Do you stop loving your kids if they do something wrong?

Hate the sin. Love the sinner.

 

[Lisa]

That is why I took the time to thoroughly research and study it. My research and my study confirmed that the leap in my spirit was right. I know beyond a shadow of doubt that the original texts do not say the punishment of unbelievers is eternal. Since quoting scriptures that use the English word "eternal" is the only defense that supporters of the doctrine of eternal damnation can provide I have no reason to entertain the possibility that God would sadisticly resurrect an unbeliever just so he can torture them for eternity with no purpose other than vengence. The "justice" argument doesn't fly because God clearly said the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.

I think you wanted to see what you wanted to see and wanted to hear what you wanted to hear, honestly.

Jeremiah‬ ‭17:9‬ ‭
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?​

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

Do you stop loving your kids if they do something wrong?

Hate the sin. Love the sinner.

I think there can come a time where you can’t love the sinner anymore because of their sins..
And kids are a tough one..but I think the same can be said of them, probably not when they are little but when they become teens, they can surely test that bond!

 

[Dalit]

I think there can come a time where you can’t love the sinner anymore because of their sins..
And kids are a tough one..but I think the same can be said of them, probably not when they are little but when they become teens, they can surely test that bond!

I beg to differ. You still love but don't enable them. If they're irresponsible with money, you don't give them any money or you do knowing it's a gift and not a loan. You always love. There's a song about that: "They Will Know We are Christians by Our Love." However, it appears not all people have heard that song.

 

[Lisa]

I beg to differ. You still love but don't enable them. If they're irresponsible with money, you don't give them any money or you do knowing it's a gift and not a loan. You always love. There's a song about that: "They Will Know We are Christians by Our Love." However, it appears not all people have heard that song.

How is that unconditional love then?

 

[justjess]

I think there can come a time where you can’t love the sinner anymore because of their sins..
And kids are a tough one..but I think the same can be said of them, probably not when they are little but when they become teens, they can surely test that bond!

Well then i fell bad for you, that’s a cold heart.

I love plenty of people who’s actions I hate. You put boundaries up but you never stop loving them.