A few questions open to all Christians on this forum

[Robin]

This is complete truth, well said.

If we separate Jesus the man from the multitude of theories and imaginations piled upon the reality of his message... they're two very different entities. He was pointing us to God.

A connection with what we call the Almighty is inborn. How could a person not feel awe, reverence, joy at the experience of being alive and part of the All? There is a divine, powerful intelligence and if you don't feel it, maybe look at the barriers disrupting our consciousness.

Jesus was one voice exulting the Creator, describing the Law which is written in our hearts and minds. Instead of theology/philosophy we need to pass on traditions that cultivate honesty, compassion, and authentic freedom. Be the religion OF Jesus, not about Him.

So what is your perception of Jesus without the constructions of Pauline Christianity?

 

[DavidSon]

So what is your perception of Jesus without the constructions of Pauline Christianity?

What I find exciting is that relying only on His words in the Gospels, the perception is ever changing. The thousands of churches and 2 billion Christians may tell you their interpretation but His message is elusive. There are teachings which appear contradictory because of their context. He spoke mainly in parables (to the uninitiated) and here I think we sense the true grasp of Jesus' wisdom and ability to relate to the mindset of that era.

It can be frustrating for how extremely little we have to go on. The 5 Gospels (including Thomas) are around 100 pages, and a lot of that I consider "filler" material. Other religions like Buddhism have libraries of sutras, tales, etc. It's mystical that a culture could spread by word of mouth with such little intellectual source material. Again I think it relates to the idea that the same truths have been spoken by holy people for many thousands of years, and that truth is within us all- it just needs to be kindled.

If I had to distill His message to a few concepts: Honor God. Seek spirituality. Time again He's reminding His generation to shun materialism. Do not plan for tomorrow. Seek first the kingdom of God. Without miracles and theology added there's a trove of wise instruction that I think modern society is wanting for today. My hope is the next generations can see above the religion and experience the text for themselves.

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

79. A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."
He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'" - Gospel of Thomas

 

[shankara]

What I find exciting is that relying only on His words in the Gospels, the perception is ever changing. The thousands of churches and 2 billion Christians may tell you their interpretation but His message is elusive. There are teachings which appear contradictory because of their context. He spoke mainly in parables (to the uninitiated) and here I think we sense the true grasp of Jesus' wisdom and ability to relate to the mindset of that era.

It can be frustrating for how extremely little we have to go on. The 5 Gospels (including Thomas) are around 100 pages, and a lot of that I consider "filler" material. Other religions like Buddhism have libraries of sutras, tales, etc. It's mystical that a culture could spread by word of mouth with such little intellectual source material. Again I think it relates to the idea that the same truths have been spoken by holy people for many thousands of years, and that truth is within us all- it just needs to be kindled.

If I had to distill His message to a few concepts: Honor God. Seek spirituality. Time again He's reminding His generation to shun materialism. Do not plan for tomorrow. Seek first the kingdom of God. Without miracles and theology added there's a trove of wise instruction that I think modern society is wanting for today. My hope is the next generations can see above the religion and experience the text for themselves.

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

79. A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."
He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'" - Gospel of Thomas

You know this just reminded me that someone on the forum responded to me mentioning the Gospel Of Thomas by quoting the last saying which is generally considered to be a spurious addition. It mentions the idea of women not being worthy of salvation and to me looks like by far the most controversial saying in the Gospel. I only found this out last night when I re-read the text, anyway it shows a serious lack of intellectual honesty to attack the Gnostic Gospels by quoting sayings which weren't actually originally in them!

Personally I agree that the Gospel of Thomas is basically a fifth canonical Gospel, and the most interesting of all the Gnostic Gospels (except perhaps Judas, though I haven't read that one lately). It points the way to Jesus as a spiritual master, yes a Divine Being, a kind of Logos but not saving everyone by dying (rather, by dying and being ressurected giving a symbolic example of the Spiritual Way).

Of course it's very difficult for people to accept that Christ came to give us Wisdom to live by and that by going through the difficult process of following that Wisdom in our lives we will arrive eventually at Spiritual Liberation... Much easier to believe oneself automatically saved simply by "believing" something...

"7. Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

The one who overcomes sensuality (the carnal mind, the natural man) is blessed, the one who is devoured by their sensuality falls. This is effectively the teaching of all religions without exception.

 

[Vytas]

I sense sarcasm. Depending on that life, yes, it can be a punishment. If God really does know the future why place temptation in the garden in the first place, thus inviting sin into the world (which was apparently inevitable?)

Temptation ? What do you mean by that, serpent or tree? Because serpent is not really serpent and tree is not really tree. With free will opportunity for sin exist.
As for this life. It's nothing compared to eternity. Literally nothing.

 

[Todd]

I've never heard about this . . . Do you have sources I could look up please? I've wondered about this . . . This, at least to me, kind of explains away the cruel injustice of creating people predestined for eternal torture. Does this mean reincarnation? Also . . . Thank you.

No, not reincarnation in the sense of returning to this realm. Resurrection into the ages to come. Believers to the life of the ages and unbelievers to corrective and restorative punishment.

Some places to learn more about UR.
Tentmaker.org
Mercy upon all.org
Mercifultruth.com

Or just google universal reconciliation or Apokatastasis. There is plenty of information about it on the web, both positive and negative.

 

[Wigi]

My point isn't that they chose wrong, its that their poor decision affected every successive generation that didn't get the option to choose at all.

Every generation chooses whether they will seek God or please their ego by living in sin.

If God really does know the future why place temptation in the garden in the first place, thus inviting sin into the world

I think the real issue for me is : if men have a will and can decide for themselves whether they will listen to God (who knows the future) or their ego, why we often choose harm instead of obedience as long as it could please the self?

My guess: rebellion just like Lucifer rebelled against God's authority.

 

[Karlysymon]

So I've been a lurker here for about a year now. The religious debates regarding Christianity alone is a joke. I have a few questions. How is anyone supposed to take a God seriously who couldn't clarify enough about pertinent issues like the requisite for salvation, the existance of hell, the role of non-Israelites, the validity of his word, etc. And aren't all of us "gentiles" merely allowed salvation because his own people rejected him? Why would you be happy knowing your salvation is only a result of a ploy to incite jealousy? I don't understand it. Also, why is it fair for all of humanity to be punished for the mistakes of the first two according to a literal interpretation of biblical cannon? Even if it is not meant to be a literal reading, why does sin and evil exist anyway if God really is all-powerful? Why allow so much suffering and pain and darkness? I used to be a Christian and grew up in a Christian household but the more I've tried looking further into these things the more frustrated I become. The endless divisions and squabbles over miniscule and significant issues is enough to nullify any legitimacy this religion has. Can anyone kindly offer some kind of response?

Much of what you mentioned has a thread or two on here. Christianity is a beautiful faith, yes it has its challenges from within and without: the perpetual splintering that has weakened it much but still thriving, as well as being co-opted by the powers that be for geo-political ends. If Christianity has no clarity over anything, that has implications for everyone of us. With what you listed, everyone at the end of days/judgement will simply rise up and use those excuses as the reason for why they shouldn’t be banished from His presence. Laying the blame solely on Him. Since “righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne” (Psalm 89:14), He would have to be just and let everyone into the celestial courts since He failed to provide any clarification. Now, there are people that you’ve probably seen or read about who you think are so evil that they don’t deserve heaven. Well, even they at the resurrection would simply pull up those excuses in defense of the lives they lived. So heaven would be freak show Earth 2.0

Does the Word of God really lack any clarity over the issues you listed? “For since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” (Romans 1:20) If God has made it a point to leave evidence of Himself in the natural world, of which men cannot deny and evidence to which they’ll be held to account, surely how can He fail when it comes to HolyWrit? A greater testament than the natural world?

The Bible is clear about much of what you listed, we just all read it differently, with our biases and everyone comes to their own conclusions.

“Call to Me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know” Jeremiah 33:3

Hope that helps. God bless!

 

[DavidSon]

You know this just reminded me that someone on the forum responded to me mentioning the Gospel Of Thomas by quoting the last saying which is generally considered to be a spurious addition. It mentions the idea of women not being worthy of salvation and to me looks like by far the most controversial saying in the Gospel. I only found this out last night when I re-read the text, anyway it shows a serious lack of intellectual honesty to attack the Gnostic Gospels by quoting sayings which weren't actually originally in them!

Personally I agree that the Gospel of Thomas is basically a fifth canonical Gospel, and the most interesting of all the Gnostic Gospels (except perhaps Judas, though I haven't read that one lately). It points the way to Jesus as a spiritual master, yes a Divine Being, a kind of Logos but not saving everyone by dying (rather, by dying and being ressurected giving a symbolic example of the Spiritual Way).

Of course it's very difficult for people to accept that Christ came to give us Wisdom to live by and that by going through the difficult process of following that Wisdom in our lives we will arrive eventually at Spiritual Liberation... Much easier to believe oneself automatically saved simply by "believing" something...

"7. Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

The one who overcomes sensuality (the carnal mind, the natural man) is blessed, the one who is devoured by their sensuality falls. This is effectively the teaching of all religions without exception.

Hey shankara!

We can acknowledge the Gospel according to Thomas because scholars unanimously hold it up as consistent with the other traditional four, in authenticity of language and meaning. There are many of the same sayings throughout. I've never found the GOT to be controversial- it only adds dimension to the basic message.

The teaching about the lion eating man, that's a great interpretation. I have to admit several of the sayings go over my head. It may be a level of spiritual attainment, it could be they related to other parables of the day. They can be mysterious. I've noticed thoughtful ones like you and Aspiring Soul have the background to place some of the ancient concepts in proper context.

Here's a verse that speaks to what I view as an essential part of His message about God and the Kingdom:

51. His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?"
He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

The Kingdom of Heaven is within. It's a state of being. A way of being in tune with people, nature, the past and present... that by God's mercy we can live life to the fullest of our potential.

Back to the OP, we must filter out the noise. Search and read for ourselves. Traditional spiritual knowledge is a gift from our ancestors and a steppingstone to immortality. As was written on the ancient temples from Athens to Abyssinia: KNOW THYSELF!

 

[shankara]

@DavidSon

It's kind of absurd that people can claim to be the followers of Christ, who said:
"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

Yet who aren't even capable of being at peace with others who merely have slightly different interpretations of the same idea!

To arrive at peace we need to see the fundamental inner Unity of things, not the extraneous external details. "Divide and Conquer" is the way the devil rules...

 

[elsbet]

@Robin

I used to be a Christian and grew up in a Christian household but the more I've tried looking further into these things the more frustrated I become. The endless divisions and squabbles over miniscule and significant issues is enough to nullify any legitimacy this religion has. Can anyone kindly offer some kind of response?

I can.

You sound like an intelligent woman-- stop going by what you hear people say, and study the bible, yourself. Use a concordance so you will know the literal meaning of each word, as you read the verses in context.

Some people (generally speaking) treat the bible like a novel-- it is not, of course-- it's a textbook.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm asking them here because I assumed posters would be aware of misinformation and deliberate distortion. There are also a few people here who hold entirely different views but seem very well-studied and researched that make me question the concepts of organized Christianity. Thank you for responding though.

Do you recognize a paraphrase?

I think Jesus tells us what he thinks of organized religions when he is almost stoned for advocating working the Sabbath.
He said that the Sabbath was created for man and not man for the Sabbath.
I extrapolate from that that Je3sus would say the same about religions.
As a Karaite Jews, Jesus put man above religions and god himself.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I sense sarcasm. Depending on that life, yes, it can be a punishment. If God really does know the future why place temptation in the garden in the first place, thus inviting sin into the world (which was apparently inevitable?)

Inviting Virtue. Not sin.

Not only inevitable but also necessary to god's plan. So sing the Christians.

The wiser Jews know better.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

@Robin



I can.

You sound like an intelligent woman-- stop going by what you hear people say, and study the bible, yourself. Use a concordance so you will know the literal meaning of each word, as you read the verses in context.

Some people (generally speaking) treat the bible like a novel-- it is not, of course-- it's a textbook.

It is a fairy tale for adults.

That is why it tells you itself to get away from such a childish book if you wish to perfect your wisdom.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Temptation ? What do you mean by that, serpent or tree? Because serpent is not really serpent and tree is not really tree. With free will opportunity for sin exist.
As for this life. It's nothing compared to eternity. Literally nothing.

Free will needs to know the variables and no one knew what those were.

If the tree is not a tree and a serpent not a serpent, then god is not a god either.

I agree. He is a foul prick of a demiurge.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

No, not reincarnation in the sense of returning to this realm. Resurrection into the ages to come. Believers to the life of the ages and unbelievers to corrective and restorative punishment.

Some places to learn more about UR.
Tentmaker.org
Mercy upon all.org
Mercifultruth.com

Or just google universal reconciliation or Apokatastasis. There is plenty of information about it on the web, both positive and negative.

Fantasy.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Much of what you mentioned has a thread or two on here. Christianity is a beautiful faith,

Care to comment on what beauty you find in a homophobic and misogynous church that believes in using a scapegoat while calling their abdication of their responsibility good?

Regards
DL

 

[elsbet]

It is a fairy tale for adults.

That is why it tells you itself to get away from such a childish book if you wish to perfect your wisdom.

Regards
DL

Link?

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Link?

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

I look forward to GCB’s response but perhaps he had that in mind?

It certainly is childish and indeed dangerous to view the Bible as literal truths, both historically and scientific. To insist on such only discredits it.

 

[elsbet]

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

I look forward to GCB’s response but perhaps he had that in mind?

It certainly is childish and indeed dangerous to view the Bible as literal truths, both historically and scientific. To insist on such only discredits it.

No offense, but that's not what it means. If anything, it explains that we cannot know-- or rather, we cannot FATHOM the truth of this whole thing. We see through a glass darkly... or as through a mirror darkly. We can't even see the entire spectrum of colors, with our limited, human sight. How much more is veiled from us, I can only imagine.

But then, face to face. All will be revealed. I will know, just as I [already am] known. v.12

That's a great chapter though. In its proper context...

​

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.​

​

And if I should have prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.​

​

And if I may give away all my possessions, and I may deliver up my body that I may boast, but have not love, I am profited nothing.​

​

Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious, it is not boastful, it is not puffed up.It does not act unbecomingly, it does not seek the things of its own, it is not easily provoked, it keeps no account of wrongs. It does not delight at unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.​

​

Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away.​

​

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.​

​

When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child.​

​

For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.​

​

But now these three things abide: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.​

1 CORINTHIANS 13​

​

​

 

[Colonel Valerio]

No offense, but that's not what it means. If anything, it explains that we cannot know-- or rather, we cannot FATHOM the truth of this whole thing. We see through a glass darkly... or as through a mirror darkly. We can't even see the entire spectrum of colors, with our limited, human sight. How much more is veiled from us, I can only imagine.

But then, face to face. All will be revealed. I will know, just as I [already am] known. v.12

That's a great chapter though. In its proper context...

​

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.​

​

And if I should have prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.​

​

And if I may give away all my possessions, and I may deliver up my body that I may boast, but have not love, I am profited nothing.​

​

Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious, it is not boastful, it is not puffed up.It does not act unbecomingly, it does not seek the things of its own, it is not easily provoked, it keeps no account of wrongs. It does not delight at unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.​

​

Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away.​

​

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.​

​

When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child.​

​

For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.​

​

But now these three things abide: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.​

1 CORINTHIANS 13​

​

​

Indeed if love is what Paul describes it can not be Yahweh as understood literally. God’s actions and plans are at odds with the definition of love as eloquently expressed by Paul in this chapter. One of his more coherent writings to say the least.