Revelation

[Lisa]

You are mistakenly equating believing bad doctrine with losing salvation. If the "faith" we fall away from is our salvation, there is no hope for any of us. As @TokiEl said, we are all deceived in one way or another.

I know we've gone up one side of this and down the other on other threads, but if we are talking about a falling away, logic and the evidence in front of us would indicate that it's a departure from good doctrine.

Apostasy is a rejection of the truth. The Catholic church doesn't qualify, because it started out as apostate. No, the falling away is happening in mainstream, Protestant churches. Prosperity gospel, acceptance of homosexuality, replacement theology, "New Age" gospels, etc.

I know we have gone around and around on this but I think that I have tried to present falling away scripturally. If the scriptures didn’t indicate that a falling away happens and then also indicate that once you fall away you aren’t saved, I wouldn’t believe it. But like I said, I do believe that when someone falls away they have lost their salvation.

The only thing I’ve said though is that it’s not a one time you were deceived so you’ve lost your salvation. I have repeatedly said that it’s a gradual thing in that you are deceived and God tries to get you to come to the truth and you reject Him and the truth repeatedly. After awhile God gives you over to it doesn’t He? We still have free will here and we can follow what we want to follow, hear what we want to hear...those itchy ears? That’s why God tells us to be on the alert. Test yourselves that you are in the faith. Why the warnings if it doesn’t matter? That doesn’t make sense to me. God warns us but it really doesn’t matter because we can never lose our salvation? Does that make sense to you?

And if you aren’t in the faith anymore if you have been deceived enough that you believe in lies rather than the truth then haven’t you walked away from God? Would you still want to be with the one true God in heaven? He isn’t the God you are worshipping anymore so how would that even work out? Talk about awkward...

Isn’t that what happened to Adam and Eve? They walked away from God, believed lies about Him? What happened to them? They were separated from God. When God talked to them about it, they couldn’t even own up to what they had done. I don’t even think they were reconciled to God, I could be wrong but I think if they had been God would have told us.
And you may be saying that that’s something different but is it?

Yes God saves us but you have a responsibility to stay in the truth. To continue in the faith or you will be cut off. God hasn’t changed who He is. He will keep working to bring you back to Himself but when you won’t return then you again have made your choice to reject Him. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, He has never promised anyone ever that they are saved if they separate from Him so why should we believe that now? Especially when scripture tells us that’s not true.

I can again post the scriptures that I believe tells us we can fall away and the consequence of falling away if you want and you can take a look at why I believe the way I do. Just let me know if you’d like to see the evidence I have because I didn't just come up with this out of thin air.

I agree about the catholic church, but what do you think about the denominations that took a step away from the catholic church? I think the more you walk with God the more you walk away from false teachings and doctrines. I think of...
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
‭‭Matthew ‭7:13-14‬ ‭
That says a lot don’t ya think?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
‭‭Matthew 24:10‬
Sounds like it could get worse.

Yeah but that verse from that particular passage is speaking about the coming Tribulation, which leads into the Great Tribulation which is brought about by the Antichrist.

The great apostasy happens before that.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I know we have gone around and around on this but I think that I have tried to present falling away scripturally. If the scriptures didn’t indicate that a falling away happens and then also indicate that once you fall away you aren’t saved, I wouldn’t believe it. But like I said, I do believe that when someone falls away they have lost their salvation.

The only thing I’ve said though is that it’s not a one time you were deceived so you’ve lost your salvation. I have repeatedly said that it’s a gradual thing in that you are deceived and God tries to get you to come to the truth and you reject Him and the truth repeatedly. After awhile God gives you over to it doesn’t He? We still have free will here and we can follow what we want to follow, hear what we want to hear...those itchy ears? That’s why God tells us to be on the alert. Test yourselves that you are in the faith. Why the warnings if it doesn’t matter? That doesn’t make sense to me. God warns us but it really doesn’t matter because we can never lose our salvation? Does that make sense to you?

And if you aren’t in the faith anymore if you have been deceived enough that you believe in lies rather than the truth then haven’t you walked away from God? Would you still want to be with the one true God in heaven? He isn’t the God you are worshipping anymore so how would that even work out? Talk about awkward...

Isn’t that what happened to Adam and Eve? They walked away from God, believed lies about Him? What happened to them? They were separated from God. When God talked to them about it, they couldn’t even own up to what they had done. I don’t even think they were reconciled to God, I could be wrong but I think if they had been God would have told us.
And you may be saying that that’s something different but is it?

Yes God saves us but you have a responsibility to stay in the truth. To continue in the faith or you will be cut off. God hasn’t changed who He is. He will keep working to bring you back to Himself but when you won’t return then you again have made your choice to reject Him. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, He has never promised anyone ever that they are saved if they separate from Him so why should we believe that now? Especially when scripture tells us that’s not true.

I can again post the scriptures that I believe tells us we can fall away and the consequence of falling away if you want and you can take a look at why I believe the way I do. Just let me know if you’d like to see the evidence I have because I didn't just come up with this out of thin air.

I agree about the catholic church, but what do you think about the denominations that took a step away from the catholic church? I think the more you walk with God the more you walk away from false teachings and doctrines. I think of...
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
‭‭Matthew ‭7:13-14‬ ‭
That says a lot don’t ya think?

The first part of your comment is describing a reprobate—someone who has so thoroughly & willfully rejected salvation that they cannot believe, and therefore can no longer be saved.

The Romans 1, Hebrews 6 person.

That person NEVER believed.

Reprobates are thankfully not that common, but do exist. Most lost people are just regular lost people....either they haven’t heard (or understood) a clear Gospel presentation or mistakenly think they can be saved by works, but either way, they don’t have hatred toward the Gospel.

Reprobates DO.

That’s the difference. If you ever meet a reprobate you will know what I’m talking about.

 

[Lisa]

Yeah but that verse from that particular passage is speaking about the coming Tribulation, which leads into the Great Tribulation which is brought about by the Antichrist.

The great apostasy happens before that.

So, there’s 2 falling away’s? Isn’t the apostasy the falling away? I don’t think I understand your meaning here Claire.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Yes God saves us but you have a responsibility to stay in the truth. To continue in the faith or you will be cut off.

^^^^This.......makes me worry about your salvation.

I love you so I am not trying to offend you, but this makes it clear that you are believing in a works-based salvation.

 

[Lisa]

The first part of your comment is describing a reprobate—someone who has so thoroughly & willfully rejected salvation that they cannot believe, and therefore can no longer be saved.

The Romans 1, Hebrews 6 person.

That person NEVER believed.

Reprobates are thankfully not that common, but do exist. Most lost people are just regular lost people....either they haven’t heard (or understood) a clear Gospel presentation or mistakenly think they can be saved by works, but either way, they don’t have hatred toward the Gospel.

Reprobates DO.

That’s the difference. If you ever meet a reprobate you will know what I’m talking about.

Nope, not talking about a reprobate but someone who was in the faith, who was a partaker of the Holy Spirit and then fell away. That’s what scripture says, you can argue differently but I don’t see why you would if the Spirit explicitly says some (not a great falling away btw) will fall away from the faith.

Let’s talk about that last part...fall away from the faith. What faith do you think the Holy Spirit is talking about? Judaism? Islam? Catholicism? What faith could the Holy Spirit be talking about here? Christianity maybe? I would think so since Jesus says that He will send us a Helper-the Holy Spirit. So it’s the Christian faith that people will fall away from.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

So, there’s 2 falling away’s? Isn’t the apostasy the falling away? I don’t think I understand your meaning here Claire.

No there’s only one (at least in the end times spectrum). The great apostasy (yes, it’s the falling away) happens, THEN the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed & gains power over the entire world and believers are persecuted and killed by beheading on an unprecedented scale, such as never before. This worldwide martyrdom of Christians is the great Tribulation, which happens just before the 2nd coming of Jesus.

 

[Lisa]

^^^^This.......makes me worry about your salvation.

Why?
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
‭‭Romans ‭11:22‬ ‭

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Nope, not talking about a reprobate but someone who was in the faith, who was a partaker of the Holy Spirit and then fell away. That’s what scripture says, you can argue differently but I don’t see why you would if the Spirit explicitly says some (not a great falling away btw) will fall away from the faith.

Let’s talk about that last part...fall away from the faith. What faith do you think the Holy Spirit is talking about? Judaism? Islam? Catholicism? What faith could the Holy Spirit be talking about here? Christianity maybe? I would think so since Jesus says that He will send us a Helper-the Holy Spirit. So it’s the Christian faith that people will fall away from.

Partaking of the Holy Spirit does NOT EQUAL an INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit, which happens when you are saved.

The Holy Spirit came upon many people in the Bible who were unsaved, but that doesn’t mean they were indwelled with it.

 

[Lisa]

No there’s only one (at least in the end times spectrum). The great apostasy (yes, it’s the falling away) happens, THEN the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed & gains power over the entire world and believers are persecuted and killed by beheading on an unprecedented scale, such as never before. This worldwide martyrdom of Christians is the great Tribulation, which happens just before the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Since there is only one falling away then Jesus is talking about that falling away here...
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
‭‭Matthew 24:10‬

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Nope, not talking about a reprobate but someone who was in the faith, who was a partaker of the Holy Spirit and then fell away. That’s what scripture says, you can argue differently but I don’t see why you would if the Spirit explicitly says some (not a great falling away btw) will fall away from the faith.

Let’s talk about that last part...fall away from the faith. What faith do you think the Holy Spirit is talking about? Judaism? Islam? Catholicism? What faith could the Holy Spirit be talking about here? Christianity maybe? I would think so since Jesus says that He will send us a Helper-the Holy Spirit. So it’s the Christian faith that people will fall away from.

Yes, it is Christianity that people are falling away from.

That is all the false teachings that people like Joel Osteen, Benny Him, Joyce Meyer, etc are teaching.

But you are erroneously claiming that a person can fall away from salvation, and the Bible states that we are given “ETERNAL” life through FAITH ALONE in the blood of Jesus Christ.

So you do not believe that we are given “eternal”/“everlasting” life (salvation) through Jesus, otherwise you would not claim that we could “lose” that salvation.

If we could “lose” it, it was never everlasting.

Does that make sense?

 

[Lisa]

Partaking of the Holy Spirit does NOT EQUAL an INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit, which happens when you are saved.

The Holy Spirit came upon many people in the Bible who were unsaved, but that doesn’t mean they were indwelled with it.

Nope!
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
‭‭Hebrews 6:4-6

Sounds like you are saved and have the Holy Spirit then fall away in Hebrews 6:4-6

In Hebrews 3:14, I wouldn’t call that works based, you aren’t doing anything but continuing to believe, holding onto your first love if you will. If you don’t do that then you can fall away from the faith and away from God and with dire consequences for you.

 

[Lisa]

Yes, it is Christianity that people are falling away from.

That is all the false teachings that people like Joel Osteen, Benny Him, Joyce Meyer, etc are teaching.

But you are erroneously claiming that a person can fall away from salvation, and the Bible states that we are given “ETERNAL” life through FAITH ALONE in the blood of Jesus Christ.

So you do not believe that we are given “eternal”/“everlasting” life (salvation) through Jesus, otherwise you would not claim that we could “lose” that salvation.

If we could “lose” it, it was never everlasting.

Does that make sense?

It is still everlasting if you remain in Him. If you hold fast the beginning of your assurance firm to the end. If you continue in His kindness or you will be cut off. Too many ifs for me to think my salvation is assured. It’s not that I’m working for it, I can’t but I do have to continue on in the faith. I still have to be obedient to God I have to make sure that I’m a good Berean and make sure I am in the truth. Otherwise, I can be deceived with my itchy ears and turn to myths or things I’d rather believe than the truth. If it wasn’t a possibility then God wouldn’t have told me it was..

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Since there is only one falling away then Jesus is talking about that falling away here...
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
‭‭Matthew 24:10‬

No, that is not what the Bible says, Lisa!
Here is what it says:

Matthew 24 (KJB):

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


If you read the KJB you wouldn’t keep having these misunderstandings. Like I said, the KJB contains no contradictions or convolutions.

You refuse to heed my advice about the Bible version and continue to read the NASV, and as a result, you are mixed up on basic fundamental doctrines like salvation, eternal life, etc.

It’s like trying to learn Chemistry by reading Chicken Soup for the Soul....you’ll only end up MORE confused than before.

“Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.”....Proverbs 15:10 KJB

 

[Lisa]

No, that is not what the Bible says, Lisa!
Here is what it says:

Matthew 24 (KJB):

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


If you read the KJB you wouldn’t keep having these misunderstandings. Like I said, the KJB contains no contradictions or convolutions.

You refuse to heed my advice about the Bible version and continue to read the NASV, and as a result, you are mixed up on basic fundamental doctrines like salvation, eternal life, etc.

It’s like trying to learn Chemistry by reading Chicken Soup for the Soul....you’ll only end up MORE confused than before.

“Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.”....Proverbs 15:10 KJB

I think you’re the one with the disadvantage, trying to understand archaic language, honestly Claire.

And I think it’s given you a false sense of security. It’s not like people weren’t fooled in the Bible thinking they knew the truth about God only to find out that they really didn’t know what God wanted at all just what their itchy ears and wicked heart told them was true.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The discussion seems to rest on the interpretation of certain verses in Hebrews. I find this explanation the most biblically satisfying...

 

[Lisa]

The discussion seems to rest on the interpretation of certain verses in Hebrews. I find this explanation the most biblically satisfying...

Do you always let other people’s vidoes do your talking for you?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Do you always let other people’s vidoes do your talking for you?

I do when the point takes an hour to make! Regardless, I think a little time invested in good exegesis saves numerous misunderstandings.

*you don’t have to watch it ;-)

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Catholics are of course Christians.

It's the Catholic leadership that has been heavily infiltrated by for example Freemasons who are pagans worshiping the gods of old.

The ordinary everyday Catholic believe in Jesus Christ and carry the power of His name in their heart and on their tongue... and so are dangerous to the Devil and the dark side.




The day is much later than most think.

According to my interpretations of the timeline in Daniel 9 the great tribulation begins this year or the next.

Roman Catholicism is NOT a Bible-believing Christian religion—-not even close.

Catholics are NOT Christians, they are “Catholics”, as they will quickly tell you themselves.

I do think there ARE, however, SOME people who are forced to go to Catholic Church that are saved, but they do not believe what they are taught by the RCC, and know that they cannot be absolved by some human priest who lets people call him “Father”, or by praying to the dead saints, or by the worshipping of relics or all the other sinister, unbiblical acts they perform.

One of my sons agreed to go to “church” with His friend’s family if his friend agreed to come with us to ours the next week. The friend was Catholic, and my son said the mass was not just wrong, but that it was straight “evil” & seemed like some kind of “witchcraft” and he felt uncomfortable the whole time.

His friend got angry when my son refused the Eucharist, and when he refused to kneel before a statue & refused to pray a “Hail Mary” prayer.

He said they drink fermented wine in their church, which is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN in the Bible. He said they had so many statues & graven images in there that exuded an actual presence of evil.

The RCC is wicked as Hell, and the people trusting in the RCC will split Hell wide open.

 

[Lisa]

I do when the point takes an hour to make! Regardless, I think a little time invested in good exegesis saves numerous misunderstandings.

*you don’t have to watch it ;-)

It would take you an hour to make your point?