Once Saved Always Saved?

[Allegra]

 

[TokiEl]

So I was reading from Ephesians at lunch today and I as reading it all I can see in the Scriptures is Assurance of Salvation in Christ. I wonder how people who reject that our Salvation is Assured by Faith in Christ interpret and read these passages?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

That we should be holy and blameless before Him in love.

That means without sins !

 

[Claire Rousseau]

So I was reading from Ephesians at lunch today and I as reading it all I can see in the Scriptures is Assurance of Salvation in Christ. I wonder how people who reject that our Salvation is Assured by Faith in Christ interpret and read these passages?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

According to these verses, those of us who are Saved, were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World, He knew that we would accept Him and be Saved, and thus has predestinated us to be adopted because of Christ and in Christ.

It also says it is His Will that this was done and that He, God, has made, not will make, not possibly make, but past tense has made us accepted, in Christ.

That seems pretty definitive that those who are Saved, the ones that Truly Believe on and in Christ, they were KNOWN before the foundation of the world and that it is Gods good pleasure and His Will that we be adopted as Children in Christ. Those who believe we can lose our Salvation dont seem to understand the massive implications of adoption and the legal status surrounding it.

Essentially someone is more legally bound to children that are adopted than they are their own flesh, and it is next to impossible to disown a child that is adopted. I dont believe its of coincidence that we are named as being adopted in and thru Christ back to the Father. This language conveys purposefully the idea that God has entered into a legal contract with us as adopted children from which He Himself wouldnt or even cant disown us. Just think how often the Old Testament speaks of legal transactions concerning Israel, and concerning heirs. Even the entire ideology of a Covenant is based upon legal transactions. So its of no light manner that God has it in His Word that we have been adopted by Him, into a legal "purchase" of which there is no ability to reject or return.

Furthermore in Ephesians from the same chapter is this:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Again these are definitive statements declarations, we HAVE obtained, not might, not possibly, but HAVE past tense obtained, because we were predestined, not because of what we have done or will do but why and how were we predestined? By the purpose of God, who works all things after His will, for the reason that we are the praise of His Glory, why? Because we trusted in Christ.

Do any of you see room for your own personal works in these verses? Do any of you see where our works can even slightly cause us to lose that which God predestined to obtain because of His purpose and His will?

The next few verses go even more to speak to an absolute irrevocable action that has taken place, an absolute assurance that has happened when we are Born Again.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So many absolute and eternal and unbreakable promises concerning the securing of our Salvation by God and Christ thru Faith in just these 2 verses alone. It is saying that once we have trusted and believed on the Truth and the Gospel of Salvation, we WERE sealed, not will be sealed, not possibly might, but WERE as in past tense, the moment of Salvation, sealed with the Holy Spirit.

What does a seal mean to all of you that reject that we have been Eternally Saved when we first believed? Is the language of sealing meant to describe something that is going to be lost? What do you think Paul had in mind when he penned these words?

I believe that Paul had in mind the idea of envelopes which in those times were sealed with a specific seal, a marker and there was always one seal that was created and used by dignitaries when sending letters to or from or for the King. These seals were NEVER to be opened by anyone other than to whom it was sent, in other words if you sent a letter as a dignitary to the King it would be marked and sealed and PRESERVED and ONLY the King could open it. To do otherwise would result in your death.

The Holy Spirit is our SEAL from God, we have been marked and sealed and just as in times past that Seal contained 4 elements, Security, Authenticity, Ownership, and Authority. When a letter was sealed it was sealed to preserve and bring security from whomever sent it, to whomever received it. It was a guarantee that no one had read or forged what was contained in the envelope, the receiver was secure that what they received was not tampered with and the sender was assured what he sent was received properly. The Holy Spirit is our assurance from God, that we will be delivered just as He asked which is Justified in Righteousness by Faith in Christ.

The Holy Spirit also shows that we have been Authentically marked by God, that we are owned by God and have His Authority over our lives. These seals are something written to convey an Eternal and Inherent aspect of our Salvation and in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And the next verse is the ultimate promise that we who are Saved ought to rest in, because it states that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. What does that mean?

It means that the Holy Spirit is the down payment God put down UNTIL He comes and gets us. We are the purchased possession, and again that is PAST TENSE. If you have the Holy Spirit then it means God has completely and totally purchased you, you are now His and He has given us the Holy Spirit to hold our place essentially until the time comes that He either calls us Home or comes back and gets us.

These verses are written to specifically show that Salvation is a transaction that is Non Refundable, that has in Gods eyes already been completed and has ZERO to do with our Works. If it has nothing to do with us, if the transaction is 100% completed and He has stated it is His will that we be adopted, taken, redeemed, unto Him, ONLY because of our Faith, then how possibly can it be Lost?

The answer is it can not. I hope whomever it was that was asking others if they can lose their Salvation reads this and the other posts from those who understand the Truth. If you have been Born Again, if you believe in Christ and have received the Holy Spirit, then the transaction is 100% completed, the Holy Spirit has sealed you and signifies that you are 100% owned by God and He is here for one reason to assure you of your Salvation until that day comes that God picks up what He put the downpayment on which is your Perfected Soul washed in the Blood of Christ.

I would love to see how those who believe they can lose Salvation interpret all of these verses?

What I always notice in this debate, is that those who believe that Salvation is Eternal are able to answer the questions and Scriptures used by the other side of the argument. Such as when someone quotes a passage as a Proof Text that Salvation can be Lost, those who know it can not, are able to interpret and then give an explanation as to why that passage isnt really a Proof Text for the ability to Lose Salvation.

However I hardly ever see the other side being able to interpret or contextualize the Proof Texts we bring and merit it out with the idea that Salvation can be Lost. How can Ephesians 1 be read in a manner in which Salvation is dependent on our Works or can be Lost?

I cant see it, all I see is Promise after Promise of our Salvation being Eternally Secured and given to us by Faith thru Grace Alone...

Yes, our salvation is absolutely secure because God the Father & Christ the Son BOTH hold us in their Hands and they are stronger than anyone or anything.

John 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.





Those verses should help those who doubt eternal security.

It says “no man” can pluck us from God’s Hand....including ourselves.

It reminds me of when my children were small, and my husband & I would take them to the fair or petting zoo—somewhere public where they always had to hold our hand so they didn’t get lost or kidnapped.

Our second son, Ethan, was always especially curious & rambunctious, excited to see everything and when something caught his eye, he would try to break away from his father’s hand to run ahead and explore whatever it was that piqued his interest.

My husband would say, “Be patient, son, we’ll get there.”

But little Ethan would try with all his might to let go of my husband’s hand & I would watch on fondly, amused at how hard Ethan would try to get loose....a little child next to his 6’7” father, and no matter how hard Ethan tried to break away, my husband never let go of his hand.

And I would watch & smile, knowing that Ethan’s efforts were futile, as his Dad was not going to let him go, and it was plain to see that Ethan was going nowhere alone, as his father was clearly exponentially stronger than him.

That is how it is with God.

Once we are His, we can try to let go of His Hand, but He will never let go of ours.

 

[Allegra]

What Daciple said reminds me of John Piper’s book that I read months ago “Does God desire all to be saved?” Its a good book u can read it free in his website. I finished it in 2 days.

Just sharing some verses from my daily plans today.

"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."
-‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭14:2‬‬

"He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake."
-‭‭Psalms‬ ‭23:3‬‬

"And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?"
-‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:7‬‬

Hmmm... chosen-elect. And psalms 23:3 sounds like perseverance of the saints.

Interesting! Maybe He wants me to meditate on this?

 

[DevaWolf]

That we should be holy and blameless before Him in love.

That means without sins !

How do you get in such a state then, which works would be enough?

 

[Daciple]

That we should be holy and blameless before Him in love.

That means without sins !

I have tried to ask this before, what do you think being Holy means? I would love to have an actual discussion with you, are you capable of having one?

 

[TokiEl]

How do you get in such a state then, which works would be enough?

How to become holy and blameless ?

Since the Holy spirit convicts of sins... you stop sinning. You live your life according to the words of Jesus.

It's a growing relationship and He will let you know what is not acceptable to Him. Even thoughts that you keep to yourself that are negative to another person... He will find a way to make you loose those negatve emotions because it's not acceptable to Him.

 

[TokiEl]

I have tried to ask this before, what do you think being Holy means? I would love to have an actual discussion with you, are you capable of having one?

I know what holy means. It means without sins.

That is non debatable.

 

[DevaWolf]

I know what holy means. It means without sins.

That is non debatable.

Ok, so you talk to jesus and he makes you without sins so you never make any mistakes anymore when you talk to him?

People who are true Christians never commit crimes either?

 

[TokiEl]

Ok, so you talk to jesus and he makes you without sins so you never make any mistakes anymore when you talk to him?

People who are true Christians never commit crimes either?

That's right.

 

[phipps]

Does the Backslider Always Return to the Lord Before Death?

No, far from it. That was the case of the first king of Israel, Saul. It is written of Saul that he was "turned into another man." "And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be TURNED INTO ANOTHER MAN." 1 Samuel 10:6 emphasis added. Yet Saul backslid from his high and exalted position, disobeyed the Lord, and at last took his own life (1 Samuel 31:1-6). It cannot be said in this case that Saul was not converted, because God says that he was. Yet, he took his own life with no opportunity of repentance.

Saved - Past, Present and Future

Bill Jones is fishing several miles out in the ocean. His boat capsizes and sinks to the bottom. He is unable to swim to safety. Just then, another fishing boat comes along, but it is so heavily loaded that it is impossible to take on another passenger. Because they want to rescue the doomed man, however, the crew throws him a rope. "Here, take this rope," they say. "We will tow you to shore." As he takes the rope, Bill Jones says, "Thank God, I am saved!" And he is saved, as long as he holds on to the rope. Salvation is his, but he has a part to play in it. If he should at any time release his grasp on the rope and refuse to take it again, he would be lost. So it is with a person who has been rescued from sin. He remains saved as long as he holds on to the hand of Christ. If he should decide to release that hand and clasp the hand of the devil, he would be lost. His salvation depends on his decision and his action.

Actually, one can properly speak of salvation in three tenses - past, present, and future. He can say, "I have been saved" when he takes the rope, "I am being saved" as he is being towed to shore; and "I shall be saved" when he plants his feet firmly on shore. A converted person -has been saved- from the penalty of sin. We call that justification. He -is being saved- from the power of sin, and we call that sanctification. He -shall be saved- from the presence of sin when Christ comes, and that will be glorification. All three of these tenses are used in the Bible in connection with being saved.

In Romans 8:24 is the expression, "We are saved by hope." Weymouth is a more accurate translation. He says, "We have been saved," past tense. The Revised Standard Version correctly renders the phrase in 1 Corinthians 1:18 as "To us who are being saved." Then Acts 15:11 states, "that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved." So you see past, present, and future.

Now let's make sure that no one gets the wrong impression from our illustration of the man being rescued from drowning. Does the fact that he must cling to the rope to be saved, mean that we can earn our salvation by our own works? Absolutely not, a thousand times no! Remember that he was being towed by a power other than his own. He was merely cooperating with that power. He was holding on to the rope. He had to do that in order to be pulled to safety. As Christians we must confess our faith in Christ, we must remain steadfast to Him, we must bring forth the fruits of obedience; that is our part in holding on to Christ. He will never let us go. The only way we can separate ourselves from Him is to cut ourselves off deliberately and disconnect ourselves from Him, but we have the power to do that. We are still free moral agents. Our will has not been removed merely because we have become Christians.

At any point in our Christian life we can decide to turn back, to choose the things of the world rather than the things of God and heaven. We are saved only through faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour. "There is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. However, we show our faith by our works. It is a manifestation of our love for Him. Keeping God's commandments and doing right are merely the result of His Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. These are the fruits of the Spirit. We do these things, not in order to be saved, but because we are saved, and as long as we love the Lord with all our heart, we are going to be obedient to Him. We will not let go of the rope. We will continue to cling to Christ as our only hope.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/17/t/can-a-saved-man-choose-to-be-lost-#Does-the-Backslider-Always-Return-to-the-Lord-Before-Death-

 

[Daciple]

I know what holy means. It means without sins.

That is non debatable.

That absolutely is NOT what Holy means, and shows how little you understand about what we are called in Christ to be.

Holy means to be set apart for the consecration and use of God.

One of the most quoted Scriptures concerning being Holy would be 1 Peter 1:15-16

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Look up the word Holy in the Greek, does it mean without Sin?

Strong's Concordance
hagios: sacred, holy
Original Word: ἅγιος, ία, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Definition: sacred, holy
Usage: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.



40 hágios – properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world."
The fundamental (core) meaning of 40 (hágios) is "different" – thus a temple in the 1st century was hagios ("holy") because different from other buildings (Wm. Barclay). In the NT, 40 /hágios ("holy") has the "technical" meaning "different from the world" because "like the Lord."
[40 (hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different(distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.]

So I was thinking about the idea of Holiness lately and I was dwelling on the aspect of Holiness and Sinlessness and as I was pondering and praying about this God laid on my heart the instruments that were used in the Temple for Services as described in the Old Testament.

If we study the Temple there were certain items that were consecrated and set apart to be of use for God in the Temple, and some of these items were everyday items. Items everyone else would possibly use on a day to day basis, such as tongs, basins, snuffers, and fire-pans ect. However what made these items different were that they were SET APART to be used for the purpose intended by God. They were made HOLY because they were used in service to God.

And as I was dwelling on the idea of Sin and Holiness I could picture the Altar that was used for Sacrifice, and 2 things stuck out to me concerning it. First was how often it had to have been dirty, if you study out Sacrifices in the Temple you will find out that there were literally thousands of animals every month that were being Sacrificed upon the Altar. Can you imagine how it had to end up looking and smelling at some points in time.

And when I was thinking on that I realized that regardless of how dirty that Altar may have gotten and no matter what others may have thought that it looked like on the outside, the fact was, it was still Holy, why? Because it was set apart specifically for the use of God.

I believe the same thing can be said about us who are Saved, when we are Saved we are made Holy, not because of anything we do, but because the Holy Spirit indwells in us and we are made to be Set Apart for God. Plenty of times we can "get dirty" but regardless of the outside and what happens to it and how it looks, the inside is still Perfect and completely Set Apart for the use of God.

Also as I thought about that Altar I could see the symbolism in ourselves as well. That Altar was made to be Holy, to be Set Apart for the Service of God and not only that, it was also covered in the Blood of the Sacrifice. We who are saved have also been covered by the Blood of Christs Sacrifice and it is not Blood that washes away, gets old or disappears. That Blood that covers us is Eternal, it never leaves and never disappears!!

I think you need to do a deeper study on Holiness, because as I thought you equal Holiness to Sinlessness and the fact is Holiness means to be SET APART for the use of God. We didnt set ourselves apart by our own Works, instead God has MADE us Holy in setting us apart by Faith in Christ to be used for His Will and His Purpose.

Not to say we shouldnt strive to be WHAT WE ARE, but this is to say that the idea that Holiness means Sinlessness is not the correct and true understanding of what Holiness means. What I see is you think you need to Work to be Sinless and that makes you Holy, when its pretty much the other way around.

We being MADE HOLY by Faith in Christ are now able to fully pursue the Will of God, being ALREADY SET APART by Faith we can walk in the manner that leads us from Sin. Who hear would ever think that walking closer and doing the Will of God would NOT result in conquering of Sins? Not I, but that doesnt me our JUSTIFICATION comes from our Sinlessness or lack thereof...

I truly do believe you need to study the Word much much much more deeply than you currently have, you seem to always only have a cursory or shallow understanding of most of these topics. Your zeal is commendable, but you come across as someone who very recently came to Christ and have yet to study deeply much of anything about Christ or the Bible...

 

[Lisa]

And this is all I can thing of right now...
for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:7‬ ‭

 

[Vytas]

And this is all I can thing of right now...
for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:7‬ ‭

Cutting verse in half so actual meaning remains hidden...rich...Here i help you out

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Lisa]

Cutting verse in half so actual meaning remains hidden...rich...Here i help you out

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Ya, no doubt but its the last part that keeps running through my mind.

 

[Vytas]

Ya, no doubt but its the last part that keeps running through my mind.

Very pious thoughts

 

[Lisa]

Very pious thoughts

Is it?

 

[Daciple]

Oh Lisa, I dont what has caused you to dislike me so very much, but I am on the site to hopefully teach others who are interested in these subjects something, if that doesnt interest you so be it.

But to subtlety try and compare me to a Pharisees using that verse is more than a stretch and if anything is wholly taken out of context. The Pharisees stood on the street corners praying out loud with many words hoping to impress others and God with their long winded "prayers".

I am hoping to teach others and give them my perspective, I definitely am not here to impress anyone, especially God Himself. If someone wanted to teach and give what is on their heart shall they make it a 2 sentence post?

Regardless IDK what I did to you, but hope you can forgive me, I love you anyhow...

 

[TokiEl]

I truly do believe you need to study the Word much much much more deeply than you currently have, you seem to always only have a cursory or shallow understanding of most of these topics.

But that's what the pharisees did. They studied so much that they didn't recognize the Messiah whom they were waiting for. And Jesus told them that they study and study the scriptures thinking in them they find eternal life... as they were not willing to receive Him whom the scriptures speak about.

 

[Lisa]

The Pharisees stood on the street corners praying out loud with many words hoping to impress others and God with their long winded "prayers".

Yes, I do think that is what you are doing. Take out prayers and insert replies. Every time I see your mountain of words that is what I think of. That and father’s don’t exasperate your children. Looking at all those words and to know that the next reply will be a repeat of all those words