Once Saved Always Saved?

[bible_student]

You are a liar and a heretic for claiming a person can go to Heaven by good works.

@TokiEl is correct in saying this because this is actually what Jesus said will be the case.

 

[bible_student]

Believe means to "live by".

Not just to say something.

Faith without works is DEAD.

 

[Thunderian]

Faith without works is DEAD.

Do you consider faith in Jesus Christ to be a work?

 

[bible_student]

Do you consider faith in Jesus Christ to be a work?

Yes of course. But you have to live it for it to be real, otherwise, it is just empty words and not alive.

 

[Thunderian]

Yes of course. But you have to live it for it to be real, otherwise, it is just empty words and not alive.

So there's a minimum standard of works that must be maintained? One work isn't enough to satisfy the Lord?

 

[phipps]

If their own good works are in accordance with what Jesus Christ considers good works... Yes of course ! God's grace which is the spilt Blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins is valid for all who turn from sins and live their life according to His words.

Churchgoers today don't understand that Grace is the spilt Blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins.

It doesn't matter how much someone believe in Jesus Christ if they don't live their life according to what He said.

You are not speaking according to the Bible here. The Bible is clear we can only be saved through and by Jesus Christ.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36.

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.

Do people who don't believe in God do good things? Yes they do. Is it enough for them to be saved? Not according to the Bible.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1.

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14.

We are also not saved by works. We are saved by grace which is a free gift from God. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8. Once in Christ, those who genuinely believe in and truly love Him for what He has done for them will reveal His love in their works in their daily lives.

How can a person live according to God's word if they don't believe and have faith in Him?

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6.

 

[bible_student]

So there's a minimum standard of works that must be maintained? One work isn't enough to satisfy the Lord?

It's easier than you might think.

You just ask Him what it is that you can do for Him and then listen in your mind for His "still small voice".. to show/let you know what it is.

The Lord wants to use us to do works for Him in this world. You believe in Him, right? You know He is real. So, it works just like any other relationship works.

You ask Him what it is He wants you to do, then listen for His reply. It will come to you "out of the blue" and suddenly you will just know that The Lord has given you a task and then you go and do it. Maybe you know and do this already.. I for one, didn't always know it.

Most people just ask God to do this, or do that for them, and then they don't even say "Thank You". That is very one-sided, and selfish.

It all changes when you start asking The Lord what it is that He wants you to do. What can you do for Him? Ask Him, and He will show you. It is literally, keeping His Commandments. Sometimes, it can be hard work, but that will always be rewarding. Sometimes, it can be a lot of fun, the things He wants you to do. Sometimes, it may just be to pass on a smile, to someone else who needs one. For you it may seem like nothing, but to them, it may mean the world. God knows that they needed it, and you were in the right place at the right time, and have been given the opportunity to be and act as His servant. That is one way of keeping His Commandments, doing His Will and all of that is your "works".

So, it't not about maintaining some minimum number of works... so that for the rest of time, you can forget about God and go back to doing what "you" want. It's about asking Him all the time about doing His Will, and learning to love doing it. He can lead you into amazing experiences, while doing work for Him, like being on a magical mystery tour. It's amazing and a lot of time, its FUN! Sometimes, it will be hard, or even things you at first may not want to do, but it will always be rewarding and you will learn something from it. The "works"can be small things, or big jobs. It never gets boring.

I'm not saying you, or anyone here is not doing that, but I sure didn't always know, that it could be like that. But, now I know that it can be. We are to be tools for Him to use in the world.. so, we need to get in the habit of asking Him.

Scripture says, that we were created to do His (good) works. It is actually, our purpose... so, it is also what gives a meaning and purpose to life.

 

[TokiEl]

You are a liar and a heretic for claiming a person can go to Heaven by good works.

The spilt Blood of Jesus Christ is the grace that is valid for all who turn from sins and start living according to His words.

 

[TokiEl]

How is that in line with scripture, which tells us that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation?

His blood is valid for all who turn from sins and begin to live according to His words.

 

[TokiEl]

You are not speaking according to the Bible here. The Bible is clear we can only be saved through and by Jesus Christ.

Churchgoers are modern day Pharisees who have lost common folk sense.

The spilt Blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins is the one and only thing that saves sinners.

Sinners need to repent and stop sinning and start to live according to His words.

Churchgoers or modern day Pharisees don't want to hear that they must stop sinning... that is the problem !

 

[TokiEl]

Churchgoers have made the Creator of the universe into a religious dummy.

In the case of churchianity they teach that God will cast into Hell all who actually live according to His words... while sinners will enter Heaven for just believing in Jesus Christ.

With such a twisted view to begin with it is doubtful that they will change...

 

[phipps]

Churchgoers are modern day Pharisees who have lost common folk sense.

The spilt Blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins is the one and only thing that saves sinners.

Sinners need to repent and stop sinning and start to live according to His words.

Churchgoers or modern day Pharisees don't want to hear that they must stop sinning... that is the problem !

Churchgoers are modern day Pharisees who have lost common folk sense.

Don't put all Church goers in the same basket. I haven't lost my common sense let me assure you of that. It still doesn't change that you are posting things that are not of the Bible. We are not saved by good works.

The spilt Blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins is the one and only thing that saves sinners.

Yes, but we have to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, accept His free gift for His death in our place and live according to His Word and repent our sins. People don't just get saved just because they do good works. Being saved is about allowing our the hearts to align and obey God's precepts everyday. We need our hearts to be changed. We can only do that with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Sinners need to repent and stop sinning and start to live according to His words.

Yes they do. So no matter how many good works we do, if we don't repent our sins, stop sinning and live according to Christ's Words, we can't be saved.

Churchgoers or modern day Pharisees don't want to hear that they must stop sinning... that is the problem!

I know there are Christians (especially on this forum) who think once a Christian has professed to be of Christ and is saved and baptised, no matter how much they sin they are still saved. I know some Christian religions teach that the ten commandments were done away with. That is contrary to the Word of God. However what you said about a non believer gaining salvation by their own good works is also contrary to the Word of God. Being saved has never been about good works.

 

[Thunderian]

You just ask Him what it is that you can do for Him and then listen in your mind for His "still small voice".. to show/let you know what it is.

Well, that's a relief, because the still, small voice is telling me that my soul is sealed forever by the Holy Spirit of God, and I am already seated in heavenly places with him. It tells me that I am saved forever, and all I need to worry about is working on my relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[Thunderian]

I know there are Christians (especially on this forum) who think once a Christian has professed to be of Christ and is saved and baptised, no matter how much they sin they are still saved.

There is no need for baptism.

 

[Thunderian]

His blood is valid for all who turn from sins and begin to live according to His words.

Why does the Bible say the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ? Is that a typo?

 

[phipps]

There is no need for baptism.

There is absolute need for baptism. Don't take my words for it. This is what Jesus said.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5. This statement is probably the most definitive and assertive that Christ ever made on any subject. His words are too clear to be misunderstood. There are two absolute requirements for entrance into heaven. Every one of us must pass through these two experiences in order to be saved. We have to be born of the spirit which is conversion of the heart, and baptised which is the outward physical sign that the change has taken place.

Here is another statement Jesus made on the subject. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16.

Jesus was baptised, “And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him.” Mark 1:9-10.

The Christians in the Bible were baptised and there is one story of the Ethiopian eunuch who got baptised by Philip, “And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.” Acts 8:36-39. If the early Christians continued baptism that means it was never abolished and it can't be if we need to do it to enter the kingdom of God.

Also "Jesus said, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Matthew 28:19-20.

Peter, on the day of Pentecost said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.” Acts 2:38.

How can any professed Christian say "There is no need for baptism." when its one of the prerequisites to going to heaven?

 

[Camidria]

Churchgoers are modern day Pharisees who have lost common folk sense.

The spilt Blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins is the one and only thing that saves sinners.

Sinners need to repent and stop sinning and start to live according to His words.

Churchgoers or modern day Pharisees don't want to hear that they must stop sinning... that is the problem !

I agree here with @phipps, just because the church goers in your area follow a belief that they can just do as they please after they have professed they believe in Jesus, doesn't mean ALL churchgoers are like this!

We are taught in our Church that when you have received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you should grow and listen to His voice and do as He says - but this is not works based this is about obedience and love. About doing what He says because I love Him and I want to walk in His Will. I stop sinning because He helps and teaches me to stop sinning, He opens up the sins I don't even know of one by one and exposes them and He helps me to work on them, He refines and and makes me more Holy in the process, forever growing in my understanding of His perfection and Love and Will for my life. It is not the case that I need to do everything out of my own strenght, (that's impossible, I wouldn't even know of certain sins without His guidance) it is a process where I obey Him because only He can help me walk in His will.

I give God ALL THE GLORY, if it wasn't for His refining I would still be walking in certain sins, I can never take credit for stopping with those sins, I can only take credit for allowing him to work on me. Even my obedience to Him has sometimes been with grumbling - but as He has helped me mature and kept on pushing me to do the right things now I can do those things in joy.

My Church has been a big factor used by God to call me to live a more Holy life, until you visit all churches around the planet stop judging everyone.

And many of us that you are arguing with are actually doers of the Word, why? Because if you actually get to know some of us you'll see it in our fruits! You do not know us, you do not see our fruits therefore you judge everyone according to your own precepts and standards.... Where is the balance between Grace and bearing fruit only because of God's grace and perfect work in us?

All I see is judgement based on your own experience with people in your own country / area.

 

[Camidria]

when its one of the prerequisites to going to heaven?

So a aborted baby will be going to hell because they were not babtised?

 

[Daciple]

Jesus is speaking to the Jews... so no need for you to listen to that part. How convenient. Whenever a saying doesn't suit you... just say it is speaking to the Jews. Gotcha !

Stop being willfully ignorant, I never said we dont have to listen to it did I? No, I said we need to have CONTEXT to understand exactly what Jesus is speaking about and why, that is called Proper Exegesis, something you clearly have no concept of. If I were to do what you do and take one verse rip it out of Context and try and make it stand alone I can make Jesus out to be a vindictive monster, clearly He isnt.

Also beyond that, what I wrote is 100% applicable to me and you. When Jesus said strive for the narrow way and the straight gate He meant to strive for HIM, so of course we also must strive for HIM. You incorrectly make this about Works, because you are insanely Prideful and love to boast about what you are or are not doing to have the right to your Salvation.

You might want to re read what Jesus said to the seven churches in the book of Revelation. Or will you say that Jesus said that to the seven churches and so no need for you to read it ?

Would you care to quote which Scriptures you want to bring into the conversation that you believes supports your False Doctrine of Works Based Salvation?

I believe that all the Word of God is applicable to me, but I also know I can not rip verses out of Context to make them stand alone in hopes of forcing them to support a Doctrine that isnt found or contradicts the rest of the Word of God.

Paul is specifically hard to understand and easily misread by certain people.

I agree, and if you think anywhere that Paul would be stating that Works are necessary for Salvation then you would be the one who is misreading him.

You literally did not address any of the verses in my post concerning this topic, but that is okay, it is hard for certain people to address Pauls very specific Doctrine concerning Salvation, especially when they want to add Works to it, which Paul states can not be done...

I understand that you think Jesus words are just that words to the Jews when it suits you. You make no distinction between what Jesus said and all the rest because you must be lacking in reverence for the Word of God.

Yeah brother, you have no idea what you are saying, you didnt address anything at all that I wrote or quoted concerning the Topic, just ad hominem attacks about nonsense that doesnt exist.

I value the Red Letters as the Rest because literally Jesus encompasses all of the Word of God. If Jesus is all the Word of God then why do you devalue any of it? Because you lack reverence of the Word of God I suppose...

 

[bible_student]

There is no need for baptism.

Only for the "fiery" baptism that purifies your soul/mind by burning out all of the evil from it, that Jesus Christ gives to you personally to save you.