Once Saved Always Saved?

[bible_student]

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[phipps]

What you're preaching is salvation by works. We are not saved by works. I won't go through each scripture you've posted and put them in context, because Ephesians 2:8 trumps them all, and everything must be interpreted in the context of the promise that we are saved completely by Jesus Christ, and not by anything we do. That absolutely must include any and every sin we could conceive of in our hearts or commit in our flesh. That includes believing in earnest and then falling for bad doctrine. This is what is meant by freedom in Jesus Christ. The wages of sin is death but we are set free from that law. How can anyone have the joy of the Lord when they don't believe this?

You're right, we are not saved by works but our works prove if we are saved or not.

“By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matthew 7:16–23).

 

[bible_student]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

And faith without works is dead (James 2).

So Godly (good) works is the proof of faith, showing faith to be alive.

But if it is without Godly (good) works, then it is just another empty word being thrown around and dead.

 

[Lisa]

People like to talk about being "saved" as if they believe it's already a done deal, but that is not what the Bible actually teaches.

Jesus said to the multitude and to his disciples, to observe and do The Law but not to be hypocrites like the pharisees were:

Matthew 23:1 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
23:2 Saying, The lawyers and the politicians sit in Moses' Law seat:
23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe of God's Law, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their example: for they say, and do not (and make up their own laws against God's Orders - Deut. 4:2).
23:4 For they bind heavy burdens (the Talmud) and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not lift one of their fingers to remove them.

Obviously then, in order to be saved, you will have to believe and do what Jesus said, and Jesus came to fulfill The Law and the Prophets not "do away" with it/them:

Matthew 5:16 Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (see Isaiah 42:21).
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.

Isaiah 42:21 The "I AM" is well pleased for His Righteousness' sake; He will magnify The Law, and make [it] honourable (Deut. 33:21).
King of kings' bible

So, people who claim they are "saved" already and that The Law is done away with so they don't have to keep it, are wrong according to the Bible.

What do you think it means that Jesus fulfilled the law?
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

What you're preaching is salvation by works. We are not saved by works. I won't go through each scripture you've posted and put them in context, because Ephesians 2:8 trumps them all, and everything must be interpreted in the context of the promise that we are saved completely by Jesus Christ, and not by anything we do. That absolutely must include any and every sin we could conceive of in our hearts or commit in our flesh. That includes believing in earnest and then falling for bad doctrine. This is what is meant by freedom in Jesus Christ. The wages of sin is death but we are set free from that law. How can anyone have the joy of the Lord when they don't believe this?

So then how do you confess your sins and be forgiven them if you are deceived? And if you can’t confess your sins then how can you stay in a good relationship with God?
Paul tells us..
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
‭‭2 CORINTHIANS‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭

As for Ephesians 2:8...that’s not guaranteeing once saved always saved, that’s saying that when you are saved it’s not you that saved you, there is nothing there to imply that you are guaranteed salvation it’s just the condition to being saved and who it is that saves. When you read the whole council of God then you find out that you can fall away from the faith of you aren’t careful.
This is not the law but part of the salvation of Jesus Christ. And He knows it’s hard...He sends the Helper but you can override the Helper and think you know best can’t you? Especially when your ears are tickled? I mean isn’t that what Paul’s alluding to, when He talks about people putting up teachers that talk about what they want to hear to tickle their ears? All the while I’m sure the Holy Spirit was trying to turn them back...
You’re saved by grace but you can fall away through deception, that’s in scripture.

 

[bible_student]

What do you think it means that Jesus fulfilled the law?
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

In the Greek original, the word used in Matthew 5:17 is "pleroo" - to "fully preach":

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (Gr. original - "pleroo" - to "fully preach").

So, it means that Jesus came to fully preach The Law and He did so (in His Sermon on the Mount, and as recorded in the Gospels, and by His Example - of Living it, to show how it is to be done) and so, we also therefore need to keep it.

 

[Thunderian]

You're right, we are not saved by works but our works prove if we are saved or not.

Did you even notice in the passage you quoted that it's the ones who are apparently doing works -- casting out demons, etc. -- that Jesus Christ is saying he never knew? How do you get the idea that works are proof of salvation? Or that the works that are pleasing to God are the ones that are the showiest?

You know, I read in the Bible that when I receive the Holy Spirit, I receive it forever.

The Bible says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."

Jesus Christ said, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

The Bible says, "Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The Bible says that when I receive the Spirit of God, I will never lose it.

You say, "That's not what the Bible says."

Thank God, no one has to believe what you, or anyone else, has to say about salvation. They can read the plain verses in the Bible for themselves.

 

[Thunderian]

And faith without works is dead (James 2).

This book is not written to believers of this age and that verse isn't for us, but for Jews during the Tribulation.

 

[Thunderian]

So then how do you confess your sins and be forgiven them if you are deceived? And if you can’t confess your sins then how can you stay in a good relationship with God?

It doesn't matter. Confessing our sins after we have already been saved doesn't "re-save" us.

It is in our best interest as Christians to maintain a good relationship with Jesus Christ, but it's not mandatory for salvation.

 

[phipps]

Did you even notice in the passage you quoted that it's the ones who are apparently doing works -- casting out demons, etc. -- that Jesus Christ is saying he never knew? How do you get the idea that works are proof of salvation? Or that the works that are pleasing to God are the ones that are the showiest?

You know, I read in the Bible that when I receive the Holy Spirit, I receive it forever.

The Bible says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."

Jesus Christ said, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

The Bible says, "Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The Bible says that when I receive the Spirit of God, I will never lose it.

You say, "That's not what the Bible says."

Thank God, no one has to believe what you, or anyone else, has to say about salvation. They can read the plain verses in the Bible for themselves.

This is not according to the Word of God. Only those who are saved, Love and obey God's Commandments bear good fruit. Our works prove we are saved.

The Bible says, "Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

So then the Holy spirit can be grieved away can't it? Otherwise we would not have been warned not to grieve it away.

The Bible says that when I receive the Spirit of God, I will never lose it.

You can lose the spirit by grieving it away as you just posted. Can you not see that?

You say, "That's not what the Bible says."

You misunderstand what I say then. I do not deny anything the Bible says. The Bible is full of warnings for us against falling (just as the one you just posted now. I posted them once all together but I'm going to post them again. There is no such thing as "once saved always saved" in the Bible. That is lie and many Christians are going to lose eternal lives over this lie because they are out there sining thinking they are saved anyway.

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning." 2 Peter 2:20.

 

[Thunderian]

So then the Holy spirit can be grieved away can't it? Otherwise we would not have been warned not to grieve it away.

You can lose the spirit by grieving it away as you just posted. Can you not see that?

The full verse is:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.​

Where do you see the word "away" in that verse?

Do you see how deceived you are? You are so invested in your false doctrine that you are literally imagining words. You are adding to scripture.

 

[Lisa]

In the Greek original, the word used in Matthew 5:17 is "pleroo" - to "fully preach":

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (Gr. original - "pleroo" - to "fully preach").

So, it means that Jesus came to fully preach The Law and He did so (in His Sermon on the Mount, and as recorded in the Gospels, and by His Example - of Living it, to show how it is to be done) and so, we also therefore need to keep it.

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
‭‭Galatians 3:24-25‬ ‭

 

[phipps]

The full verse is:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.​

Where do you see the word "away" in that verse?

Do you see how deceived you are? You are so invested in your false doctrine that you are literally imagining words. You are adding to scripture.

So the warning doesn't count because of the ending of the sentence? We are only sealed unto the day of redemption if we do not grieve away the Holy Spirit.

What about this verse?
"Do not quench the Spirit." 1 Thessalonians 5:19.

The one deceived is you and sadly you can't see it. Being saved is an ongoing process. It is not a one time event. We have to we hold fast our faith firmly until the end. Other scriptures clearly state that after we have been grafted in we can still be cut off unless we continue to walk in faith and obedience. Romans 11. Why are we warned not to drift away if there are no consequences of drifting away?

2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” " You can't get much clearer than that!

 

[bible_student]

This book is not written to believers of this age and that verse isn't for us, but for Jews during the Tribulation.

If that was so, then why is it in the Bible now?

Jesus was speaking to the multitudes and to his disciples in Matthew 5:16 (and preceding verses of His Sermon on the Mount) and in it He gave everyone the Instruction to do good works:

Matthew
5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
5:16 Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So clearly, Jesus told everyone to do them (good/Godly works) and so without them it is not possible to do what Jesus said to do.

James was therefore saying the same as Jesus had said here to everyone.

 

[Lisa]

It doesn't matter. Confessing our sins after we have already been saved doesn't "re-save" us.

It is in our best interest as Christians to maintain a good relationship with Jesus Christ, but it's not mandatory for salvation.

What is it that comes between us and God? And unless we confess it we can’t be cleansed from our unrighteousness...so then we are again separated from God...that’s a problem.

Can you elaborate on “its in our best interest to maintain a good relationship with Jesus” is that optional under osas? (tired of tying the prhase).

 

[bible_student]

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
‭‭Galatians 3:24-25‬ ‭

Christ abolished the priesthood and made the ceremonial aspect of The Law obsolete (by replacing it with following His Example of daily "self" sacrifice, which teaches unselfishness) but the Moral Law remains unchanged forever.

Wherever Paul talks about The Law being our tutor, he is always referring to the ceremonial part of The Law (animal sacrifice for the remission of sins and the priesthood) which was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

Paul said that he himself was living by The Law (Rom. 7:25), that The Law is Holy, Just and Good (Rom. 7:12), that he was establishing it wherever he went (Rom. 3:31) and that only doers of The Law will be justified (Rom. 2:13).

 

[TokiEl]

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


What is the gift of God ? It is the spilt blood of Jesus Christ ! for remission of sins !

Sinners are forgiven by God if they love and obey His Son !

 

[Allegra]

It doesn't matter. Confessing our sins after we have already been saved doesn't "re-save" us.

It is in our best interest as Christians to maintain a good relationship with Jesus Christ, but it's not mandatory for salvation.

Confessing our sins is not about resave to but admit that we are sinful and that we will always make mistakes. We need a humble heart. God hates pride. Yes God saves us, but doesn’t mean we’re always be cleaned from sins automatically. Also, not repenting can be an open door for the darkness to enter our life and ruin it for us. They’re like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

It’s not mandatory to maintain a good relationship with Jesus?
He is your God who gives you salvation. It’s not just ‘best interest’.

He is our EVERYTHING. I’m not even worthy to maintain a good relationship with Him.

Don’t take salvation for granted. It is a gift only for those who endure until the end.

 

[Thunderian]

Confessing our sins is not about resave to but admit that we are sinful and that we will always make mistakes. We need a humble heart. God hates pride. Yes God saves us, but doesn’t mean we’re always be cleaned from sins automatically. Also, not repenting can be an open door for the darkness to enter our life and ruin it for us. They’re like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

It’s not mandatory to maintain a good relationship with Jesus?
He is your God who gives you salvation. It’s not just ‘best interest’.

He is our EVERYTHING. I’m not even worthy to maintain a good relationship with Him.

Don’t take salvation for granted. It is a gift only for those who endure until the end.

I don't ever mean to imply that it's OK to take our salvation for granted. I'm just stating things bluntly because some people have a real problem with God's grace.

And no, maintaining a good relationship with Jesus is not mandatory for salvation. Please don't take that as me saying that a good relationship with Jesus Christ isn't the most important thing in the world. It is, and we both know that.

But when people come here and use bad doctrine to cast doubt into the hearts of some of the weaker members of the body of Jesus Christ, it calls for demonstration of how great the grace of God is. They say we can fall out of God's hand. Do you believe that we can fall out of God's hand? The answer has to be either yes or no. If the answer is yes, then you will always doubt that you are good enough for salvation. That's a lie from Satan, and you should make no mistake.

If the answer is no, you can never, ever, fall out of God's hand, because he is the one who holds you, and not the other way around, then you know peace, and freedom, and joy in the Lord Jesus, and then you can grow in him with no fear. You can also crash and burn. You can fall into great sin. You can even deny God. But the Bible says, "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." If Jesus turns from us because we, in our weakness, turn from him, what use is our trust in him? What are we trusting in?

God's grace is never to be looked at as a license to sin. Don't let my description of his grace as big enough to cover all our sins be any encouragement to test if he really means it. I can tell you he does mean it, but it's not worth it finding out. No Christian who doesn't value their relationship with God will be happy living a sinful life. My pastor talks about keeping short accounts with God, and confessing our sin daily, and it's a fundamental of Christian life to regularly search your heart and confess your sins to the one who saved us. But confessing our sin doesn't save us, it just enables us to be in fellowship with God. Faith that Jesus is able to forgive us because of who he is, and not what we do, is what saves us, and we only need to sincerely express that faith once to be sealed forever by his Spirit. Anything less than that isn't salvation.

 

[TokiEl]

Faith that Jesus is able to forgive us because of who he is, and not what we do, is what saves us, and we only need to sincerely express that faith once to be sealed forever by his Spirit. Anything less than that isn't salvation.

We must comply with the red letter words if we want to be saved.

Jesus Christ will ask many christians... Why do you call me Lord Lord and not do what I say ?

 

[Thunderian]

At times, I hear the issue discussed in different, more nuanced, terms. It's not (exclusively) whether one can fall out of God's hand, so to speak, but if, once one has been properly and genuinely "born again," one can choose to be self-willed instead of submitting one's will to God. And if one repeatedly and consciously opts for self-will, and that will is in opposition to God's will, and one does not repent, one is still considered "saved?" I sometimes wonder about that as well.

Welcome back @Lisa.

The implication is that there is a tipping point. That there is a limit to the number of sins a Christian can commit before their salvation is declared void. It's just stupid, if you think about it. Self-will is pride, and pride is a sin. Luckily, pride is one of the sins Jesus died for, so we're covered.