Once Saved Always Saved?

phipps

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Continued from above.

According to the same author, if God in His foreknowledge sees that a Christian is piling up sin against sin, He tries to correct him by chastisement. Failing in this, He “takes him home,” that is, to heaven. In other words, if a man sins moderately, he will get to heaven someday; but if he sins profligately, he will get there more quickly! If this is not putting a premium on sin, what is it doing? The man who commits the most sin, the man who refuses to stop sinning, will get to heaven ahead of his conscientious, righteous brethren. It makes no difference what these sins are. They may be “murders, drunkenness, reveling”; but the more he abandons himself to such iniquities, the sooner he will be “taken home to be with the Lord.” Contrast this with Paul’s theology: “They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:21.

What explanation is made of Paul’s assertion? One radio preacher said, “The kingdom of God here has no reference to the future kingdom of Christ.” In other words, sinners will inherit the future kingdom, but not this one. What is this one? He asserted that the kingdom of Galatians 5:21 is identical with that spoken of in Romans 4:17, which reads, “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.” That is, the sinner will not enter into this higher plane of spiritual life while practicing immoralities. That a man does not enter into a higher plane of spiritual life while practicing immoralities is self-evidently and Scripturally true; that, failing to reach this plane, he nevertheless qualifies for the future kingdom is hardly worthy of comment.

But what of the cleansing at the judgment seat of Christ, which sinners are asserted to undergo? What is its purpose, and when does it occur? According to the theory, “This will occur at the return of the Lord when he calls the church to himself at the rapture.... Those who appear there are already saved forever, but it will be a judgment of their works and a rewarding of the saints. This reckoning has nothing to do with their salvation, which is forever settled when they believe, but it deals with rewards or loss of rewards and their place and position in the kingdom of Christ.” Thus a man who lives and dies in sin may be affected as far as his position in the kingdom is concerned, but his right to share in the kingdom is not compromised one whit! This is what it means to be saved by “pure grace”!

When the statement that this cleansing occurs at the return of the Lord is coupled with another belief of the proponents of this theory, an interesting situation develops. For they claim that “carnal Christians”-thieves, adulterers, liars, murderers have been going to heaven by the thousands and tens of thousands ever since the days of Christ. If “carnal Christians” have been going to heaven for thousands of years and if their cleansing is not to take place until the future coming of Christ, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that heaven is liberally populated with men and women such as one can find in any penitentiary. With one exception: They are there in “spirit form.”

The foregoing is in no sense a misrepresentation of this teaching. An evangelist schooled in the theory recently held revival meetings in one of the South’s largest cities. Under the influence of his preaching a notorious gambler and drunkard was converted. Not long after this, the man was killed in a fight after having slipped back into his previous mode of living. Told about this a year later when he returned to the city, the evangelist explained, “The Lord killed him and took him to heaven so that he would not keep on disgracing the church.” In other words, he could disgrace the church, but he could not disgrace heaven! When he believed in Jesus, he received eternal life; and this, no amount of sinning could annul. It is believed that at the judgment seat of Christ this man and all others who once believed and later died in their sins will have all their abominable works burned up, but they will be saved. And, carrying this to its logical conclusion, some are now finding room in this cleansing for the devil himself!

The phrase ‘Judgment seat of Christ” is used twice in the New Testament. Though it is frequently quoted by apologists for the once-saved, always-saved theory, the context is skipped over as well it might be, for it in no way supports the conclusions drawn. The context teaches that all have an accountability to God which cannot be escaped. To use the words of Ecclesiastes 3:17, “I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.” Peter says, “The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God.” 1 Peter 4:17. And Paul says that “the house of God” is “the church.” (1 Timothy 3:15.) In Hebrews 10:30 he adds, “The Lord shall judge his people.” The doctrine of these verses is the same as those in which the phrase ‘Judgment seat of Christ’ is used. Notice Romans 14:10-11: “But why does thou judge thy brother? Or why does thou set at naught thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.” As if to illustrate that “all” means “all,” he continues: “For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” It is a bit difficult to see how “every knee” and “every tongue” can be limited to mean only “the church”-the church including, of course, those who believed and who later died in their sins.

The next mention of the judgment seat of Christ is found in 2 Corinthians 5: 10, 11 and says nothing about judgment taking place after the “rapture,” or dealing only with the church. This reference reads, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he bath done, whether it he good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.” This shows again that this judgment will include everyone, and that those who have done evil will face God’s wrath. Impelled by their sense of guilt, the wicked kneel and confess the immutable righteousness and justice of God. Confronted with eternal loss, they are filled with fear and consternation. The righteous-those who have lived righteously through the power of the indwelling Christ-are presented “faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.” (Jude 24.)
 
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TokiEl

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Continued from above.

According to the same author, if God in His foreknowledge sees that a Christian is piling up sin against sin, He tries to correct him by chastisement. Failing in this, He “takes him home,” that is, to heaven. In other words, if a man sins moderately, he will get to heaven someday; but if he sins profligately, he will get there more quickly! If this is not putting a premium on sin, what is it doing? The man who commits the most sin, the man who refuses to stop sinning, will get to heaven ahead of his conscientious, righteous brethren. It makes no difference what these sins are. They may be “murders, drunkenness, reveling”; but the more he abandons himself to such iniquities, the sooner he will be “taken home to be with the Lord.” Contrast this with Paul’s theology: “They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:21.
Ah yes the sinning saints and the holy whores... so loved by God that He did not convict them of sins so He could bring them home asap.
 

Lisa

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I didn’t read through the whole thread, but I was wondering @phipps if you know
Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

I think this is the best verse that states that you can fall away from the faith and then what happens when you do.
 

phipps

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I didn’t read through the whole thread, but I was wondering @phipps if you know
Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

I think this is the best verse that states that you can fall away from the faith and then what happens when you do.
Hi, yes I do know those verses in Hebrews and have posted them a few times on different forums to show that a saved person can stop being saved if they stop their walk with Christ and lose their faith. Something else that was discussed here was freewill. God created us all with free will and that doesn't change when we are saved. So we can change our minds and go back to living an unsaved life. Unfortunately many Christian religions teach that once a person accepts Jesus as their personal Saviour, they are always saved no matter what they do which is not biblical.
 
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Lisa

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Hi, yes I do know those verses in Hebrews and have posted them a few times on different forums to show that a saved person can stop being saved if they stop their walk with Christ and lose their faith. Something else that was discussed here was freewill. God created us all with free will and that doesn't change when we are saved. So we can change our minds and go back to living an unsaved life. Unfortunately many Christian religions teach that once a person accepts Jesus as their personal Saviour, they are always saved no matter what they do which is not biblical.
Yes I agree with the freewill part as well. He doesn’t take away our freewill once we are saved which is what it would mean if you are once saved, always saved. I also think that it gives people a false sense of security and is dangerous....
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
 

Thunderian

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Hello Thunderian...care to elaborate?
Hi Lisa. Paul called himself the chief of sinners. How do you explain someone who is saved making that sort of statement?

1 Timothy 1:15 - This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.​
He clearly still sinned, even after his conversion. He went on at length about it in Romans 7.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.​
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.​
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.​
 

Lisa

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Hi Lisa. Paul called himself the chief of sinners. How do you explain someone who is saved making that sort of statement?

1 Timothy 1:15 - This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.​

He clearly still sinned, even after his conversion. He went on at length about it in Romans 7.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.​

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.​

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.​
I believe he likely thought he was the chief of sinners because of his persecution of Jesus and His disciples. But then after he met Jesus on the road to Damascus that changed everything and he was saved. Because as you know Christ died for us while we were still sinners.

The falling away occurs when we are deceived and fall away from truth. We will all still wrestle with sin but have the Helper to help us to overcome, scripture tells us I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
 

Thunderian

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I believe he likely thought he was the chief of sinners because of his persecution of Jesus and His disciples. But then after he met Jesus on the road to Damascus that changed everything and he was saved. Because as you know Christ died for us while we were still sinners.

The falling away occurs when we are deceived and fall away from truth. We will all still wrestle with sin but have the Helper to help us to overcome, scripture tells us I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
So he stopped sinning once he was saved?
 

Lisa

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So he stopped sinning once he was saved?
I don’t believe he did. But that brings up another scripture...
“Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
‭‭Hebrews 12:1‬ ‭

It’s an endurance race and I believe Paul knew that too. However, Paul didn’t fall away he kept running the race. 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith.
 

Lisa

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So why didn't he lose his salvation?
He wasn’t deceived and fell away. He kept the faith, kept to the truth.
Why do you suppose we are warned over and over in scripture about deception? Told to not be deceived, told about false teachers, prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing? If you are once saved always saved why do you need to know that? Doesn’t it make more sense that you need to know about those things because you can fall away from the faith and that’s the way it happens?
 

Thunderian

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He wasn’t deceived and fell away. He kept the faith, kept to the truth.
Why do you suppose we are warned over and over in scripture about deception? Told to not be deceived, told about false teachers, prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing? If you are once saved always saved why do you need to know that? Doesn’t it make more sense that you need to know about those things because you can fall away from the faith and that’s the way it happens?
No, it doesn't, because Jesus promised that his spirit would never leave us. Warning someone about false teachers doesn't only do good if we can lose our salvation. You must be able to think of more reasons for guarding against false doctrine and deception than that.

The idea that you can lose your salvation by sinning isn't consistent with the whole of scripture. I know people who strayed for a long time, and then renewed their faith and were restored to fellowship with Jesus Christ. Do you suppose they were saved, then lost it, then regained it?
 
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phipps

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No, it doesn't, because Jesus promised that his spirit would never leave us. Warning someone about false teachers doesn't only do good if we can lose our salvation. You must be able to think if more reasons for guarding against false doctrine and deception than that.

The idea that you can lose your salvation by sinning isn't consistent with the whole of scripture. I know people who strayed for a long time, and then renewed their faith and were restored to fellowship with Jesus Christ. Do you suppose they were saved, then lost it, then regained it?
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses." Hebrews 10:26-28.

This is clear enough.
 

Lisa

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No, it doesn't, because Jesus promised that his spirit would never leave us. Warning someone about false teachers doesn't only do good if we can lose our salvation. You must be able to think if more reasons for guarding against false doctrine and deception than that.

The idea that you can lose your salvation by sinning isn't consistent with the whole of scripture. I know people who strayed for a long time, and then renewed their faith and were restored to fellowship with Jesus Christ. Do you suppose they were saved, then lost it, then regained it?
And yet you must have missed this scripture I posted...
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Well, if you can’t lose your salvation because of deception, do you really need to know about being deceived? Doesn’t seem to me that that could matter in the least. The only reason to warn would be if there was a problem with being deceived I.e. falling away...

And I never said you can lose your salvation by sinning, I said you lose your salvation through deception for not being a good Berean and making sure what you’re told is in scripture.
Obviously..
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9

However what if you are deceived and don’t know you’re not in the truth anymore...can you confess your sins then?
 

TokiEl

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He clearly still sinned, even after his conversion. He went on at length about it in Romans 7.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.​

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.​

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.​
Peter said people will misread Paul.
 
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People like to talk about being "saved" as if they believe it's already a done deal, but that is not what the Bible actually teaches.

Jesus said to the multitude and to his disciples, to observe and do The Law but not to be hypocrites like the pharisees were:

Matthew 23:1 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
23:2 Saying, The lawyers and the politicians sit in Moses' Law seat:
23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe of God's Law, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their example: for they say, and do not (and make up their own laws against God's Orders - Deut. 4:2).
23:4 For they bind heavy burdens (the Talmud) and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not lift one of their fingers to remove them.

Obviously then, in order to be saved, you will have to believe and do what Jesus said, and Jesus came to fulfill The Law and the Prophets not "do away" with it/them:

Matthew 5:16 Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (see Isaiah 42:21).
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.

Isaiah 42:21 The "I AM" is well pleased for His Righteousness' sake; He will magnify The Law, and make [it] honourable (Deut. 33:21).
King of kings' bible

So, people who claim they are "saved" already and that The Law is done away with so they don't have to keep it, are wrong according to the Bible.
 

Thunderian

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And I never said you can lose your salvation by sinning, I said you lose your salvation through deception for not being a good Berean and making sure what you’re told is in scripture.
What you're preaching is salvation by works. We are not saved by works. I won't go through each scripture you've posted and put them in context, because Ephesians 2:8 trumps them all, and everything must be interpreted in the context of the promise that we are saved completely by Jesus Christ, and not by anything we do. That absolutely must include any and every sin we could conceive of in our hearts or commit in our flesh. That includes believing in earnest and then falling for bad doctrine. This is what is meant by freedom in Jesus Christ. The wages of sin is death but we are set free from that law. How can anyone have the joy of the Lord when they don't believe this?
 
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