Thoughts On The Original Quranic View Of Women

Kung Fu · May 10, 2017

mecca said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_the_ancient_world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_clothing

Everybody wore skirts/skirt type things before pants were invented.

Read what I said carefully.

mecca · May 10, 2017

Kung Fu said:
I agree but generally, when you make such a bold claim you need to provide evidence for it.

Lol it's not a bold claim. Pants have not always been in existence and before they came about, everyone wore the same kind of stuff.

mecca · May 10, 2017

Kung Fu said:
Read what I said carefully.

I did though.

Kung Fu · May 10, 2017

mecca said:
Lol it's not a bold claim. Pants have not always been in existence and before they came about, everyone wore the same kind of stuff.

Please go back and read everything I said carefully. And if you're still confused you can pm me because I'm not interested in discussing this any further on here. Time to abort this thread considering the several people that are discussing on here can't see my posts lol.

Lady · May 10, 2017

Kung Fu said:
Please go back and read everything I said carefully. And if you're still confused you can pm me because I'm not interested in discussing this any further on here. Time to abort this thread considering the several people that are discussing on here can't see my posts lol.

It probably is a good time for you to depart. You have insulted 3 people here almost in succession-you must be getting grumpy!

Lady · May 10, 2017

@Kung Fu, and others, as well:
I want you know that I am giving Tanya a chance to repair her reputation here. She is making progress but it does not help when those who "oppose" her or cannot forgive her for past wrongdoings post belittling remarks. This is bullying, and when I see it I am going to report it. I have already done so prior to this.
This is a fair warning for those who want to attack individuals here-in this case, Tanya.

We are better than this and God demands better of us! Yes, Tanya has her part in repairing broken trust, but our part is on our shouders and we will give account to God. I count her as one of my friends here regardless of what others think.
7 X 70, folks!

Kung Fu · May 10, 2017

Lady said:
It probably is a good time for you to depart. You have insulted 3 people here almost in succession-you must be getting grumpy!

Always the victim. Perhaps when someone can bring a sensible argument to the table and one who can answer my questions I might grace this thread with my appearance once again.

mecca · May 10, 2017

Kung Fu said:
grace this thread with my appearance

lol

Kung Fu · May 10, 2017

Lady said:
@Kung Fu, and others, as well:
I want you know that I am giving Tanya a chance to repair her reputation here. She is making progress but it does not help when those who "oppose" her or cannot forgive her for past wrongdoings post belittling remarks. This is bullying, and when I see it I am going to report it. I have already done so prior to this.
This is a fair warning for those who want to attack individuals here-in this case, Tanya.

We are better than this and God demands better of us! Yes, Tanya has her part in repairing broken trust, but our part is on our shouders and we will give account to God. I count her as one of my friends here regardless of what others think.
7 X 70, folks!

Last bit for the day in regards to Tanya or whatever her name is.

Plasticity · May 10, 2017

Kung Fu said:
Is this the next strategy that the American government and it's allies are going to use when they bomb and kill millions more in the future?

I have to admit this was a good one. The West do love playing the moral police of the world.

manama · May 11, 2017

rainerann said:
I was watching a documentary called girls of the Taliban yesterday, which was very interesting. In Afghanistan they have begun teaching children Islam in Madrassa's, which are religious schools that don't teach other subjects like math or science.

One girl there says that she learns that women are not allowed to have a job according to sharia. Women can't be ministers, kings, or work in a office.

Another girl says that women's rights and duties are clear in Islamic teaching and are misunderstood in the west. Then, she goes on to say that the husband is the boss and the women is the employee. Therefore, I don't think the west has a misunderstanding of Islam if this is what it teaches. This is exactly the kind of teaching that the west would object to.

In these schools the men teach the girls behind a curtain because there is a strict separation of male teachers and female students. However, one of the teachers of the school has taken one of the girls as his second wife nevertheless.

This makes sense to me because whether or not there is a veil separating the male teacher from the female students, this man still goes to work every day knowing that he is teaching young girls. Apparently, knowing this still motivated him to want to have one so he made took one of them for a second wife.

It just proves that you can't change that a woman is a woman is a woman even if you can't see the woman.

Then, while watching these girls, it just seemed so silly to me to think that covering up was somehow a way to prevent people from seeing how pretty they were because you can still see their eyes. They have beautiful eyes will no lines or wrinkles like beautiful young girls. How is anyone supposed to get me to believe that covering up entirely does not still leave the possibility that a man could see beautiful eyes and force himself to be able to see more. This is no way to prevent r*pe.

The other things I noticed that I didn't realize would bother me so much is the gloves. The gloves make me feel sad in a way I did not expect. Just what does one of these girls think when they are putting these on everyday?

Then, they showed class time where the teacher who had taken one of the student's for his second wife taught the girls that there are three things that deserve the death penalty in Islam. One is if you kill someone. One is if you commit adultery. The third person, "who must be killed is the non-believer. A Muslim in an Islamic country who denounces Islam. He should be given three days and his doubts should be discussed. But if he doesn’t repent after three days, the Islamic government must issue an order and he should be hanged."

I know most of the Muslims here disagree with this and the point is not whether or not it is or isn't part of Islam. The point is that it is part of the curriculum for these girls, which brings up the subject of choice in wearing the veil. If you are being told that you will be killed if you leave Islam, is there really a choice in wearing the veil? Is it really possible that all of these girls wake up every morning and say, "Yes, I want to wear this because it will protect my modesty," and that some percentage still wonders whether or not they will die if they don't.

Therefore, for every women in the west who wears the veil and tries to convince someone that it is there choice to do so and that they won't be risking death if they leave Islam, there is another women who does not have this choice. How do we support them in the west? How do we let them know that this is not something they have to fear?

For me, there will never be a day I will support the veil in my country because of things like this. I cannot ever support something coming into my country that is represented this way in other countries. There is no real way that I can see to separate the two theologies. Essentially, wearing the veil is being a member of these madrassa's that are teaching these girls these things in other countries. The only difference is that you wouldn't be allowed to teach things like this in the west and that is the way it should stay.

As a religious person myself, I believe in justice. Where there is injustice like this there should not be advocacy of things that perpetuate this theology in other cultures by adopting the same dress code. It shows support for things that we are only protected from because we are in the west. God forbid that would change.

Therefore, I still support a ban on the veil in west as a result of watching this video as a way of boycotting these toxic teachings and showing support for the women who presently object to them as will in Afghanistan.

"women are not allowed to have a job according to sharia. Women can't be ministers, kings, or work in a office."

Wrong! Women is Islam since the beginning of prophet eras have been business owners, working women, scholars, fought it battles and many muslim countries have had female PMs. Also nothing in the Quran or hadith prohibts that so its wrong

"husband is the boss and the women is the employee"

Nope, i think everyone easily understands the concept of breadwinner in case of one working and one at home spouse. Women have rights over men in islam and vice versa. Husband is the protecter not owner.

"In these schools the men teach the girls behind a curtain because there is a strict separation of male teachers and female students."

Unislamic. many muslims do think gender segration should be a thing which is something i'm clearly against. If you watch the main video in this thread, the woman explains how women used to openly debate against the prophet. There is no gender separation. Only gender separation in islam is that if men and women are praying in the same area its better that there should be a distance or women should be in the back so people won't willingly or unwillingly stare making them feel uncomfy.

Other than that we already established that face veil and abaya/burqa aint islamic and those who say it is say it out of their own weird deluded interpretation e.g. loosen garments = wearing stuff from head to toe.
I have yet to see anyone provide a reasonable argument with proper reference to the scripture when addressing the face veil

As far as afghanistan is concerned. Lets not forget after all what happened how backward afghanistan is, considering that before the wars women used to wear mini skirts and shorts in public. How far have we fallen sadly.

They don't teach them islam. NO!, they brainwash them and make islam there reason without teaching them the history of Islam or the scripture itself. Its no different than the MK ultra theory, except in one the kid is given a mother/father figure, in other religion.

I'm going to be very honest, i hate afghan refugees for many reasons related to country problems BUT they are being mislead to be used as tools is a definite reality. We know about how taliban who were at the time students of colleges and uni were manipulated into fighting against the USSR by unfortunately my own country and USA. That left behind a scar that refuses to heal.

manama · May 11, 2017

Also to my own understanding "not wearing clothes resembling man's clothing" etc absolutely does NOT mean not wearing suits or pants etc.

One of the signs of the end times in islam is that women will imitate men and men will imitate women. It has NOTHING to with clothing/
If we look at current clothing its pretty clear that it means people changing their gender identity. Men becoming women and women becoming men etc. The trans culture.

Already mentioned by mecca, skirts, shorts, heels, color pink etc were all considered manly. But now its consider feminine. Does that mean the men at the time were sinning? or are we today sinning by wearing heels etc?
That verse, that sin and that prophecy isn't about clothes, its about their whole identity as man or woman.

rainerann · May 11, 2017

manama said:
"women are not allowed to have a job according to sharia. Women can't be ministers, kings, or work in a office."

Wrong! Women is Islam since the beginning of prophet eras have been business owners, working women, scholars, fought it battles and many muslim countries have had female PMs. Also nothing in the Quran or hadith prohibts that so its wrong

"husband is the boss and the women is the employee"

Nope, i think everyone easily understands the concept of breadwinner in case of one working and one at home spouse. Women have rights over men in islam and vice versa. Husband is the protecter not owner.

"In these schools the men teach the girls behind a curtain because there is a strict separation of male teachers and female students."

Unislamic. many muslims do think gender segration should be a thing which is something i'm clearly against. If you watch the main video in this thread, the woman explains how women used to openly debate against the prophet. There is no gender separation. Only gender separation in islam is that if men and women are praying in the same area its better that there should be a distance or women should be in the back so people won't willingly or unwillingly stare making them feel uncomfy.

Other than that we already established that face veil and abaya/burqa aint islamic and those who say it is say it out of their own weird deluded interpretation e.g. loosen garments = wearing stuff from head to toe.
I have yet to see anyone provide a reasonable argument with proper reference to the scripture when addressing the face veil

As far as afghanistan is concerned. Lets not forget after all what happened how backward afghanistan is, considering that before the wars women used to wear mini skirts and shorts in public. How far have we fallen sadly.

They don't teach them islam. NO!, they brainwash them and make islam there reason without teaching them the history of Islam or the scripture itself. Its no different than the MK ultra theory, except in one the kid is given a mother/father figure, in other religion.

I'm going to be very honest, i hate afghan refugees for many reasons related to country problems BUT they are being mislead to be used as tools is a definite reality. We know about how taliban who were at the time students of colleges and uni were manipulated into fighting against the USSR by unfortunately my own country and USA. That left behind a scar that refuses to heal.

I was just quoting what the girls said who went to the religious schools in Afghanistan. I thought it was clear that there was a difference between the two schools when I quoted the women who was a teacher from the state school, not the religious school. It was all quoted from the girls who went to the religious school. Those were there words. I can appreciate that you object. So did many of the women in the documentary. It was very well done.

I did watch the main video and enjoyed it and it does seem like brainwashing to me in this documentary which is why I don't think the west should support the veil as a choice. For every women that "chooses" the veil in the west, there is another little girl having her rights taken away like this.

I'm not sure if you are offended by what I said or whether your offended by someone representing your faith in this way. If you are offended by me, I would ask that you reread my response one more time after this one. I thought I drew a line distinguishing the difference of thought within Afghanistan even. If it is not clear enough, I did intend to do this.

manama · May 11, 2017

rainerann said:
I was just quoting what the girls said who went to the religious schools in Afghanistan. I thought it was clear that there was a difference between the two schools when I quoted the women who was a teacher from the state school, not the religious school. It was all quoted from the girls who went to the religious school. Those were there words. I can appreciate that you object. So did many of the women in the documentary. It was very well done.

I did watch the main video and enjoyed it and it does seem like brainwashing to me in this documentary which is why I don't think the west should support the veil as a choice. For every women that "chooses" the veil in the west, there is another little girl having her rights taken away like this.

I'm not sure if you are offended by what I said or whether your offended by someone representing your faith in this way. If you are offended by me, I would ask that you reread my response one more time after this one. I thought I drew a line distinguishing the difference of thought within Afghanistan even. If it is not clear enough, I did intend to do this.

lol no i was referring to how stuff went that way in Afghanistan. true, its quite sad. I don't support veil at all. Before all these veiled, burqa clad modest women stand up for the rights of those being killed for not wearing that same stuff, i can't respect em

Tatilina · May 11, 2017

manama said:
lol no i was referring to how stuff went that way in Afghanistan. true, its quite sad. I don't support veil at all. Before all these veiled, burqa clad modest women stand up for the rights of those being killed for not wearing that same stuff, i can't respect em

Yeah its pretty sick when a veil becomes more valuable than a human life. Not a mentality I could understand.

Tatilina · May 11, 2017

I think we can all agree that this isn't the way to go about it, even this photo makes me angry. Nobody has the right to put their hands on a woman man handling her to force her to take off a hijab. That's crossing the line.

What a horrible position to be in.
https://homoeconomicusnet.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/niqab-trying-to-see-through-the-veil-debate/

manama · May 11, 2017

one side forces them to put it on and other forces them to take it off

idiocy on both sides.

Tatilina · May 11, 2017

manama said:
one side forces them to put it on and other forces them to take it off

idiocy on both sides.

The insanity. I'm up to a point now where Insay just leave people alone. We can never leave well enough alone. *Le sigh*

rainerann · May 11, 2017

Tanya said:
The insanity. I'm up to a point now where Insay just leave people alone. We can never leave well enough alone. *Le sigh*

Yah, I would never support forcing someone to take it off. However, I do believe that you can act when you are promoting justice. This is done through communication though. We should communicate more often that we don't support things like this instead of always letting people tell us that we have to accept this as a part of someone's religion. Sometimes, the things people do in the name of religion are not right and you need a way to intervene even if intervening appears to not support religious freedom.

In reality, the only ones being beat over the head with this notion of religious freedom and letting people do all these things like wear veils, which are symbols of oppression in other countries without religious freedom, are people in the west because we are one of the only places that offers such a concept to begin with. Afghanistan does not have a concept of religious freedom integrated into their government. So, for the most part, I disagree with my country involving themselves in other countries business. Most of my country disagrees with it which is why Obama won with a campaign promise to bring the troops home which never happened. Although, I do agree that we should be able to oppose the integration of these teachings within my country. I have no problem if someone wants to cover their hair. I have a problem with bringing ideologies like this though. It does not occupy the same space as religous freedom when there is such opportunity to integrate teachings that create injustice for women. This concept should be opposed, but obviously not by force.

Tatilina · May 11, 2017

What about the see through veils. They would be more acceptable because you can see their faces. I think they look really pretty too.

Thoughts On The Original Quranic View Of Women

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