Should Christians return to the Law of Moses?

[Red Sky at Morning]

Many of the disputes between Christians here and elsewhere seem to be focussing on this issue, yet it is as old as the Book of Acts...

No Return to the Law

11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, isChrist therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

 

[Vytas]

Is that a requirement for us Jesus ever spoke of ? I think not. O the contrary he was quite liberal about them, concerning food, work etc, i don't bother with examples pretty sure everybody knows them. So out of respect yes, for our own benefit yes. But it becomes wrong when people start with you must, you have to etc.

 

[Dalit]

I'll weigh in on this as one who has studied Torah for the past 14 months and wants to continue to study it in a healthy, non-NAR environment.

For me, undertaking the study of Torah, commonly known as the Law, is more about sanctification and accepting the Bible as a whole and not just seeing it as Old and New Testament, seeing it as one Testament. Not thinking that only the right side of the book really applies and the left is just some history. I know true Christians don't think this way, yet it seems a lot of modern Christians and preachers do, such as Andy Stanley, who my mom likes and who is leading people astray by saying the Old Testament really doesn't matter anymore. Mom says he doesn't say that, but I see more evidence that he does and he really just gives motivational speeches or lifestyle advice with a little Scripture thrown in. False teachers do the same. Enough to sound sincere or truthful, but not really giving the whole truth of God's Word. I have a problem with that.

Consider this from my Hebraic teacher:

Matthew 5:17-18 says:

"Do not think that I came to abolish [misinterpret; in Hebrew, loosen, weaken, make useless] the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to abolish [misinterpret it], but to raise it [Heb. mem-yod-kof-lamed (read right to left) liqayam, from qum--this is the same word as "Talitha qum" or "I say to you, little girl, get up" when Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead; also means uphold it, raise it up, confirm it as it is]. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter [yod] or stroke [taq] shall pass from the Torah until all is raised [upheld, held up, confirmed].

The creation of the world itself hangs on the Torah, Jesus as living Torah. John 1:1 and 14, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

I've heard Torah itself described as loving instruction. Anyway, seeing the connections above and the midrash of the text has really benefited me. Frankly, I can't get enough of the scholarly midrash.

 

[Renegade]

Gentiles who were never under law in the first place have nothing to return to...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I'll weigh in on this as one who has studied Torah for the past 14 months and wants to continue to study it in a healthy, non-NAR environment.

For me, undertaking the study of Torah, commonly known as the Law, is more about sanctification and accepting the Bible as a whole and not just seeing it as Old and New Testament, seeing it as one Testament. Not thinking that only the right side of the book really applies and the left is just some history. I know true Christians don't think this way, yet it seems a lot of modern Christians and preachers do, such as Andy Stanley, who my mom likes and who is leading people astray by saying the Old Testament really doesn't matter anymore. Mom says he doesn't say that, but I see more evidence that he does and he really just gives motivational speeches or lifestyle advice with a little Scripture thrown in. False teachers do the same. Enough to sound sincere or truthful, but not really giving the whole truth of God's Word. I have a problem with that.

Consider this from my Hebraic teacher:

Matthew 5:17-18 says:

"Do not think that I came to abolish [misinterpret; in Hebrew, loosen, weaken, make useless] the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to abolish [misinterpret it], but to raise it [Heb. mem-yod-kof-lamed (read right to left) liqayam, from qum--this is the same word as "Talitha qum" or "I say to you, little girl, get up" when Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead; also means uphold it, raise it up, confirm it as it is]. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter [yod] or stroke [taq] shall pass from the Torah until all is raised [upheld, held up, confirmed].

The creation of the world itself hangs on the Torah, Jesus as living Torah. John 1:1 and 14, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

I've heard Torah itself described as loving instruction. Anyway, seeing the connections above and the midrash of the text has really benefited me. Frankly, I can't get enough of the scholarly midrash.

I agree with your comments on so many levels! We are now under grace, but have so much to learn from the types, shadows and patterns of the "Old Testement" the other side of the Cross!!!

 

[SnowFall]

Gentiles who were never under law in the first place have nothing to return to...

So what do you suppose we do?
Are not all people from Adam and Eve?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So what do you suppose we do?
Are not all people from Adam and Eve?

Just to widen the question a little then, what do people believe the purpose and the massage of the Law was/is?

I have my own view but I would be interested in how other people see things...

 

[SnowFall]

Just to widen the question a little then, what do people believe the purpose and the message of the Law was/is?

I myself believe the purpose of the law was worshiping the one true God and cleansing the people of Sin and corruption.

There many parts of the Old Testament, taking about Non Jews Worshipping God and getting involved in the rituals

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I myself believe the purpose of the law was worshiping the one true God and cleansing the people of Sin and corruption.

There many parts of the Old Testament, taking about Non Jews Worshipping God and getting involved in the rituals

As I was growing up and starting to take in the story of the Torah, I noticed that alongside the Law ran the sacrificial system. It seemed barbaric and unfair to me - why would God want people to do such a thing? Couldn't they just feel sorry about things and try harder next time?



Aside from the emphasising the importance of the observance of God's standards, what do you suppose were the significance / purpose of these sacrifices?

 

[Todd]

The Torah is like God's instruction manual. When you buy an appliance it comes with an instruction manual. If you follow the instruction manual you should be able to expect the intended results and performance of the appliance. If you do not follow the instruction manual your results will vary. Is the manufacturer going to come after you and punish you if you use the appliance in a manner not prescribed in the manual? Not likely. Is the manufacturer going to honor the warranty or guarantee the results if you do not follow the manual? Probably not.

When doing a word study on "Torah", "perfect guidance and instruction" is a better definition than "law". If one wants to experience the very best God has for them, one should be very interested and motivated in observing the Torah. But as Jesus pointed out it's more important that the Torah exposes what is in our heart, then just outwardly appearing to observe and follow the Torah.

One can rightly claim they have never committed physical murder, but if one has hatred in their heart for their brother, than the Torah has exposed the evil in our heart, even if it has not yet resulted in the action of murder. Same thing with lust and adultery.

As far as the dietary laws Jesus made it clear that what we eat doesn't defile us spiritually. Hwopever if we are not observing God's dietary laws, I don't think we have any right to question him about why we have health issues. Of course we have so many nutrition and dietary challenges today that were not present in the days of Moses. If God rewrote the dietary laws today I'm pretty sure he would have something to say about processed foods and refined sugar.

My conclusion is that following/observing the Torah is not a "salvation" issue if you think of salvation as strictlyu an issue of hevean or hell (which of course I do not). If however you believe that one is saved from the power of sin (versus saved from punishment) then how could a Christian not think that observing and meditating on the Torah is important for the process of salvation (deliverance from the power of sin).

If one excepts the premise of the above paragraph the next question becomes what part of the law of Moses are we as gentiles to observe and follow. That is the part that I am currently studying and working through. For the time being I am guided by the statement that Jesus made in Matthew 22:
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second islike unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If one truly starts with this statment from Jesus and applies it to the innermost thoughts and convictions of the heart, and not just outward appearance, I believe one will be on the path to observing the Torah (God's perfect guidance and instruction).

 

[Dalit]

The Torah is like God's instruction manual. When you buy an appliance it comes with an instruction manual. If you follow the instruction manual you should be able to expect the intended results and performance of the appliance. If you do not follow the instruction manual your results will vary. Is the manufacturer going to come after you and punish you if you use the appliance in a manner not prescribed in the manual? Not likely. Is the manufacturer going to honor the warranty or guarantee the results if you do not follow the manual? Probably not.

When doing a word study on "Torah", "perfect guidance and instruction" is a better definition than "law". If one wants to experience the very best God has for them, one should be very interested and motivated in observing the Torah. But as Jesus pointed out it's more important that the Torah exposes what is in our heart, then just outwardly appearing to observe and follow the Torah.

One can rightly claim they have never committed physical murder, but if one has hatred in their heart for their brother, than the Torah has exposed the evil in our heart, even if it has not yet resulted in the action of murder. Same thing with lust and adultery.

As far as the dietary laws Jesus made it clear that what we eat doesn't defile us spiritually. Hwopever if we are not observing God's dietary laws, I don't think we have any right to question him about why we have health issues. Of course we have so many nutrition and dietary challenges today that were not present in the days of Moses. If God rewrote the dietary laws today I'm pretty sure he would have something to say about processed foods and refined sugar.

My conclusion is that following/observing the Torah is not a "salvation" issue if you think of salvation as strictlyu an issue of hevean or hell (which of course I do not). If however you believe that one is saved from the power of sin (versus saved from punishment) then how could a Christian not think that observing and meditating on the Torah is important for the process of salvation (deliverance from the power of sin).

If one excepts the premise of the above paragraph the next question becomes what part of the law of Moses are we as gentiles to observe and follow. That is the part that I am currently studying and working through. For the time being I am guided by the statement that Jesus made in Matthew 22:
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second islike unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If one truly starts with this statment from Jesus and applies it to the innermost thoughts and convictions of the heart, and not just outward appearance, I believe one will be on the path to observing the Torah (God's perfect guidance and instruction).

Yes, and the first 4 commandments fit "You shall love the LORD your God (YHVH your Elohim) with all your heart, mind, soul and strength". The latter 6 fit loving your neighbor as yourself. So the 10 commandments (words, devarim) are still valid. Won't go into the 4th though even though i intend to keep it. i won't demonize Sunday worship since ultimately we should be worshipping God every day.

 

[Todd]

As I was growing up and starting to take in the story of the Torah, I noticed that alongside the Law ran the sacrificial system. It seemed barbaric and unfair to me - why would God want people to do such a thing? Couldn't they just feel sorry about things and try harder next time?

View attachment 19662

Aside from the emphasising the importance of the observance of God's standards, what do you suppose were the significance / purpose of these sacrifices?

I think the tediious and messy nature of the sacrifices was a test of obedience. It's easy to just say you are sorry, and not really do the search of your innermost thoughts and feelings.

Everything in the OT was a physical foreshadow of what God intended to happen in the spiritual. The tedious and messy process of the sacrifice was a foreshadow of the tedious and messy process that results from true repentance and godly sorrow. When we have broken God's standards, I believe it's more that just saying sorrying and making a superficial commitment to try to not sin again.

The tedious and messy process of investigating the root of our sin and exploring what is in our hearts that lead to us coming to place of committing an outward sin is what God desires.

 

[sim hae]

As I was growing up and starting to take in the story of the Torah, I noticed that alongside the Law ran the sacrificial system. It seemed barbaric and unfair to me - why would God want people to do such a thing? Couldn't they just feel sorry about things and try harder next time?

View attachment 19662

Aside from the emphasising the importance of the observance of God's standards, what do you suppose were the significance / purpose of these sacrifices?

It's very hard to raise and provide for animals.
Try to raise a bunch of animals and sacrifice one of them each time you sin. I'm pretty sure you won't give in to sin as easily as believers in our time do. Instead of using that animal as sustenance/garments for all the hard work and time you've invested into them, you're going to sacrifice them because you were weak/foolish... nope, you'll try harder. People who have never worked the ground (for the animals food) or cared for livestock, couldn't understand because of what we happen to call WORK nowadays.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I have various reasons to support Paul's argument more. For example in the Qur'an Allah has told us that He made the party of believers from amongst the Jews (in following Jesus) successful over the disbelievers. That means what Christianity became at least in the early period represents authentic Christianity and the right way. In this case it was the Pauline teachings.
The idea of works Vs faith also makes sense. One of my fav points from Paul was when he said
"The law wasn't revealed to conceal sin but to make it known"
This deals with the law of duality eg to appreciate good you have to experience evil.
Eg it's by the mosaic law the Jews "fell", before that law existed people were not sinners by the same standard.
An Islamic example is alcohol. It wasn't prohibited before but now it is. As a result whenna Muslim drinks it is looked at as a major sin. However this also highlights the hypocrisy in our thinking because people will lie and hurt each other in every way possible but drinking alcohol is the external sign of someone being bad. So you'll get many beardbros who talk shit and hang around the mosque making it an unbearable place to be in and constantly cause fitna/strife, but the most honest guy is sat on the bus stop hooked on heroin and booze in a sorry state.
This law has highlighted these issues

Now if you're going to go down the Pauline way of thinking. The patriarchs were under God's grace...and there was no law.
Then God revealed the law to Moses.
Then Jesus came and the gentiles effectively became like the patriarchs, living by faith without the law.

However if God saw fit to reveal the law through Moses after they were already living by faith, doesn't it mean the grace of God was withdrawn and they had erred in some level for the law to be given to them eg to correct them?
It goes without saying the Israelites after living in Egypt for 400 years lost the truth and that's why they worshipped the golden calf. They thought belief was something that could be shaped by themselves around an idea and symbols and in this case they chose something that symbolises material wealth.
If that happened to Israelites then what about gentiles? So they had the truth and that was Christianity...and they lived by faith. Is there any reason why they would be protected indefinitely when the Israelites weren't eg falling from grace and therefore requiring a law/correction and receiving God's law?
If you assume you're protected because we're living in a post-Messiah context, look at the Jews. If God saw fit to cut them off the 'tree' after Jesus then anything is possible..and you have to be open minded in the same way Paul was.

In this case I do believe the Nicene creed/trinitarian doctrine to be an abomination that fallible men introduced without understanding. I don't even understand why most Christians fail to get this point.
Inc various Roman religious innovations and effectively following the Roman way you became like the Israelites in Egypt.

It makes sense to me that there's another chapter. Gentiles receiving a law like the mosaic law.

That way when Jesus returns, it makes the fulfillment of "the law" all the more meaningful. Jesus was the bridge between the Israelites and gentiles, after Jesus there could not be another Jewish prophet (so obv it makes perfect sense why there hasn't been a Jewish prophet since.
Jesus never claimed to be the finality of prophethood..so the idea of a prophet after him makes sense...and it would have to be a gentile. It makes sense that said prophet would be a descendant of ismael and thus Abraham too. Bringing a law like Moses did for all people.
Just like there are 2 periods of Jesus..one where he was passive and the other active, this is parralled by Mohammed saw in the meccan period and the post-migration period in Madina.
Now I won't make this all about Islam since you already know what I'm trying to say in this point.


Anyway just wanted to add something else to think about.
Paul used the analogy of wild branches (gentiles) being grafted into the olive tree (Israelites).
In that case gentiles would also parrallel the story of the Israelites
Eg under the grace of God and living by faith
Then receiving the law and living by works..until the messiah.
In the same way when Moses came the Israelites were set on their path in the wilderness until they conquered the holy land after Moses. Muslims similarly conquered the holy land after Mohammed saw.

I know the point I'm making isn't a direct response to your thread but these are points you should still consider.

 

[Todd]

I have various reasons to support Paul's argument more. For example in the Qur'an Allah has told us that He made the party of believers from amongst the Jews (in following Jesus) successful over the disbelievers. That means what Christianity became at least in the early period represents authentic Christianity and the right way. In this case it was the Pauline teachings.

That appears to be a stronger argument for the believers in Jeruslam who followed "The Way" as a sect of the Hebrew temple religion rather than the followers of Paul. Most of Paul's followers were gentiles.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

While I have been reading different replies here, I have been watching a video on the "Three pillars of the Christian Faith". More of an observation than a doctrine, it pulls out some of the essentials of what it means to be a Christian, and from this understanding, it is more clear what relationship a Christian has to the Law of Moses.

The "three pillars" he identifies are Salvation, Sanctification and Scriptures...

As @Dalit mentions, the Law appears to connect not to salvation for the Christian but to sanctification. The speaker addresses this element about 23 minutes in...

 

[Todd]

While I have been reading different replies here, I have been watching a video on the "Three pillars of the Christian Faith". More of an observation than a doctrine, it pulls out some of the essentials of what it means to be a Christian, and from this understanding, it is more clear what relationship a Christian has to the Law of Moses.

The "three pillars" he identifies are Salvation, Sanctification and Scriptures...

Why do people believe they need to fit faith into formulas? If there are really supposed to be three pillars of Christianity the Bible would just say so. Kinda like the Ten Commandments or Jesus saying what the two greatest commandments are.

I didn’t watch the videos. It’s quite likely the guys teaching has some good stuff in it. I just get tired of teachers thinking they can create a formula for faith better than Jesus already did.

 

[AspiringSoul]

That appears to be a stronger argument for the believers in Jeruslam who followed "The Way" as a sect of the Hebrew temple religion rather than the followers of Paul. Most of Paul's followers were gentiles.

(4) O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allah as said 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), to the Hawariyyun (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?" The Hawariyyun (the disciples) said: "We are Allah's helpers" (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious (uppermost).
(سورة الصف, As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse#14)

Since it mentions the disciples then by extension we go by what is in the book of acts and other epistles which support Paul. The last part especially highlights that the 'beievers were victorious'. As it goes, Paul's teachings effectively became Christianity.
Normally, it's fellow musims who diss Paul and say he altered Christianity from the teachings of Jesus to his own...and that is obviously contradicted by this verse.

 

[Todd]

(4) O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allah as said 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), to the Hawariyyun (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?" The Hawariyyun (the disciples) said: "We are Allah's helpers" (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious (uppermost).
(سورة الصف, As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse#14)

Since it mentions the disciples then by extension we go by what is in the book of acts and other epistles which support Paul. The last part especially highlights that the 'beievers were victorious'. As it goes, Paul's teachings effectively became Christianity.
Normally, it's fellow musims who diss Paul and say he altered Christianity from the teachings of Jesus to his own...and that is obviously contradicted by this verse.

I fail to see your extension. The disciples that Jesus spoke to in the flesh became known as the followers of "The Way". Paul could not be one of the disciples referred to in this verse as Paul never heard the words of Isa in the flesh. The Children of Israel is more likely speaking about the followers of "The Way" as most of Paul's followers did not recognize themselves as Children of Israel.

It is more likely that the group in this verse having power against their enemines and becoming victorious is refering to those that heeded the warnings of Jesus and fled Jerusalem before they were destroyed with the non-believing Jews in 70AD. That seems a more plausible viewpoint that Muhammad would have had about the early developments of the earliest followers of Christ.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I fail to see your extension. The disciples that Jesus spoke to in the flesh became known as the followers of "The Way". Paul could not be one of the disciples referred to in this verse as Paul never heard the words of Isa in the flesh. The Children of Israel is more likely speaking about the followers of "The Way" as most of Paul's followers did not recognize themselves as Children of Israel.

It is more likely that the group in this verse having power against their enemines and becoming victorious is refering to those that heeded the warnings of Jesus and fled Jerusalem before they were destroyed with the non-believing Jews in 70AD. That seems a more plausible viewpoint that Muhammad would have had about the early developments of the earliest followers of Christ.

I like the way you worded that last part, insinuating your belief that the Qur'an isn't the Word of God...but it's ok ill roll with it

The first thing is suggested is that Allah gave victory to the believers over non believers..and it doesn't of course refer to a physical battle bit a spiritual/theological victory. In this case...the Pauline doctrine was what won over and what became early Christianity.
The implication in that last part of the verse doesn't refer to the disciples but all the believers from the Israelites/Jews who did believe.
However concerning the disciples...as I'm quite basic in what I know on some matters, the book of acts highlights pails conversion..and as it happens the disciples believed in his testimony. Peter saw the vision in the cloud.

it makes a lot of sense that the mosaic law is not for gentiles. Paul was correct.