Once Saved Always Saved?

Red Sky at Morning

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In our world the majority is always wrong.
Men generally wear trousers, but I guess this must mean the Kilt is the way to go!

It is not possible to break the Ten Commandments if one is born of God.
Have you really remembered and kept holy every Sabbath?

If the Spirit of Jesus Christ lives in us it simply is not possible to break them.
What about the man in Corinthians who was put out of the church for (pretty serious) sexual immorality, yet was later restored to fellowship with them again?
 
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Psss i plan to use this verse as my sole defense when i go on whoring every other weekend ; - ) L0L
To blaspheme The Holy Spirit of Grace will not be forgiven in this age, nor the age to come. You can reply with your usual comments.....but that will not change the facts. Hell is real!!!
 

TokiEl

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Men generally wear trousers, but I guess this must mean the Kilt is the way to go!



Have you really remembered and kept holy every Sabbath?



What about the man in Corinthians who was put out of the church for (pretty serious) sexual immorality, yet was later restored to fellowship with them again?
If one is born of God one cannot break the Ten Commandments.

1 John 3 9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

1 John 3 24 "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
 

TokiEl

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To blaspheme The Holy Spirit of Grace will not be forgiven in this age, nor the age to come. You can reply with your usual comments.....but that will not change the facts. Hell is real!!!
You don't understand a joke ?

I will go easy on you this time.
 
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Often we hear this argument in an effort to belittle the law of God: “Well, since we are not under the law but under grace, we do not need to keep the Ten Commandments any longer.” Is this a valid point?
We are to uphold the Law. The Law was never done away with. So, how do you uphold or establish the Law (Rom. 3:31) if we are not under the (penalty) of the Law? We let the Law do what it was intended to do, and that was to condemn sin in sinful man and to send and put us under the Law of Christ (Grace). The Law is Spiritual, but we are slaves to sin in the Adamic nature, but by rebirth (Holy Spirit), we have a new man, and they are at odds with the old man. (Galatians chapter 5) (Romans Chapters 7 and 8)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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If one is born of God one cannot break the Ten Commandments.

1 John 3 9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

1 John 3 24 "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
Another interesting angle:-

This verse is often cited as teaching that "genuine" believers will not practice sin. They will not sin habitually, 1 John 3:9 is said to teach.

Notice how various versions and paraphrases translate the first part of the verse. Some suggest that habitual sin is in view. The New American Standard Version reads: "No one who is born of God practices sin." The Living Bible reads: "The person who has been born into God's family does not make a practice of sinning." The Amplified Bible has: "No one born [begotten] of God [deliberately and knowingly] habitually practices sin."

On the other hand, other translations suggest an absolute understanding—that the born of God person doesn't sin at all. The New King James Version, the one cited above, reads: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin." The New International Version has: "No one who is born of God continues to sin."

The translations and paraphrases show that there are two broad understandings of this verse: habitual and absolute.

The habitual sin view posits that John was teaching the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints here. "True" believers will not sin as a pattern of life. They will not be dominated by sin. They will be characterized by holiness and obedience. Sins for the "genuine" believer are merely occasional aberrations.

The second position has been called the new nature view. According to this view believers never sin as an expression of their born-of-God new natures. The new nature doesn't sin even occasionally. It is sinless. John is viewed as having called his readers to abide in Christ and live in keeping with their born of God new natures.

Which is right?

The habitual sin view cites for evidence the use of the present tense (poiei).

There are grave problems with this argument. For one thing, the present tense, unaided by qualifying words, does not mean what the habitual sin view suggests. In Greek when the present tense occurs it can be understood in a number of ways, one of which is the habitual present. However, the habitual present refers to events which occur over and over again repeatedly. If John was saying this about believers sinning he would be saying that believers do not sin repeatedly. If believers sin daily—as all believers do (cf. 1 John 1:8, 10)—then they sin habitually in the grammatical sense. I. Howard Marshall commented concerning the tense argument:

[It] involves translators in stressing the present continuous form of the verb in a way which they do not do elsewhere in the New Testament. (The Epistles of John, NICNT, p.180)​
Similarly, C. H. Dodd writes:

All this [the idea that a believer does not sin habitually] is true. Yet it is legitimate to doubt whether the reader could be expected to grasp so subtle a doctrine simply upon the basis of a precise distinction of tenses without further guidance. (The Johannine Epistles, p. 79)​
Another difficulty with this understanding is that one wonders why God would preserve believers from being dominated by sin and yet not from sinning altogether. I. Howard Marshall writes:

If believers do not sin habitually because God's seed remains in Him (3:9b), it is hard to understand why God would preserve believers from some sins, but not from all sins. We must, therefore, wonder whether an important point of interpretation can be made to rest on what has been called a grammatical subtlety. (The Epistles of John, p.180)​
The habitual sin view is also ruled out by the context. In verse 5 John said that there is no sin in Christ. He clearly meant that there is absolutely no sin in Him. Then in the very next sentence he said that those who abide in Christ do not sin. He could hardly have meant that Christ sins not at all and those who abide in Him sin but not a lot. John's point is clearly that sin is never an expression of abiding in Christ. When we abide we do not sin at all.

Verse 9 is a further development of this point. No believer ever sins as an expression of his new nature. Insofar as the believer expresses his new nature in his experience, he will not sin because God's seed remains in him (1 John 3:9b).

Alford notes that "If the child of God falls into sin, it is an act against [his] nature" (Hebrews-Revelation, p.465). Likewise, Brooke writes:

The fact that he has been begotten of God excludes the possibility of his committing sin as an expression of his true character, though actual sins may, and do, occur so far as he fails from weakness to realize his true character. (The Johannine Epistles, p.89)​
First John 3:9 does not teach the Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Indeed, no passage does. God perseveres. Saints at best fail daily. First John 3:9 is a call to holiness. Our new natures are pure and holy. Let us live in our experience like we are in our position. Of course, there is a mystery here. John said in 1 John 1:8,10 that believers cannot attain to sinless perfection in their experience. However, we can allow our new natures to dominate our experience so that we live consistently godly lives. May we live like who we are: children of the Holy One who has saved us by His amazing, free grace.

https://faithalone.org/magazine/y1990/90march2.html
 
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Another interesting angle:-

This verse is often cited as teaching that "genuine" believers will not practice sin. They will not sin habitually, 1 John 3:9 is said to teach.

Notice how various versions and paraphrases translate the first part of the verse. Some suggest that habitual sin is in view. The New American Standard Version reads: "No one who is born of God practices sin." The Living Bible reads: "The person who has been born into God's family does not make a practice of sinning." The Amplified Bible has: "No one born [begotten] of God [deliberately and knowingly] habitually practices sin."

On the other hand, other translations suggest an absolute understanding—that the born of God person doesn't sin at all. The New King James Version, the one cited above, reads: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin." The New International Version has: "No one who is born of God continues to sin."

The translations and paraphrases show that there are two broad understandings of this verse: habitual and absolute.

The habitual sin view posits that John was teaching the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints here. "True" believers will not sin as a pattern of life. They will not be dominated by sin. They will be characterized by holiness and obedience. Sins for the "genuine" believer are merely occasional aberrations.

The second position has been called the new nature view. According to this view believers never sin as an expression of their born-of-God new natures. The new nature doesn't sin even occasionally. It is sinless. John is viewed as having called his readers to abide in Christ and live in keeping with their born of God new natures.

Which is right?

The habitual sin view cites for evidence the use of the present tense (poiei).

There are grave problems with this argument. For one thing, the present tense, unaided by qualifying words, does not mean what the habitual sin view suggests. In Greek when the present tense occurs it can be understood in a number of ways, one of which is the habitual present. However, the habitual present refers to events which occur over and over again repeatedly. If John was saying this about believers sinning he would be saying that believers do not sin repeatedly. If believers sin daily—as all believers do (cf. 1 John 1:8, 10)—then they sin habitually in the grammatical sense. I. Howard Marshall commented concerning the tense argument:

[It] involves translators in stressing the present continuous form of the verb in a way which they do not do elsewhere in the New Testament. (The Epistles of John, NICNT, p.180)​
Similarly, C. H. Dodd writes:

All this [the idea that a believer does not sin habitually] is true. Yet it is legitimate to doubt whether the reader could be expected to grasp so subtle a doctrine simply upon the basis of a precise distinction of tenses without further guidance. (The Johannine Epistles, p. 79)​
Another difficulty with this understanding is that one wonders why God would preserve believers from being dominated by sin and yet not from sinning altogether. I. Howard Marshall writes:

If believers do not sin habitually because God's seed remains in Him (3:9b), it is hard to understand why God would preserve believers from some sins, but not from all sins. We must, therefore, wonder whether an important point of interpretation can be made to rest on what has been called a grammatical subtlety. (The Epistles of John, p.180)​
The habitual sin view is also ruled out by the context. In verse 5 John said that there is no sin in Christ. He clearly meant that there is absolutely no sin in Him. Then in the very next sentence he said that those who abide in Christ do not sin. He could hardly have meant that Christ sins not at all and those who abide in Him sin but not a lot. John's point is clearly that sin is never an expression of abiding in Christ. When we abide we do not sin at all.

Verse 9 is a further development of this point. No believer ever sins as an expression of his new nature. Insofar as the believer expresses his new nature in his experience, he will not sin because God's seed remains in him (1 John 3:9b).

Alford notes that "If the child of God falls into sin, it is an act against [his] nature" (Hebrews-Revelation, p.465). Likewise, Brooke writes:

The fact that he has been begotten of God excludes the possibility of his committing sin as an expression of his true character, though actual sins may, and do, occur so far as he fails from weakness to realize his true character. (The Johannine Epistles, p.89)​
First John 3:9 does not teach the Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Indeed, no passage does. God perseveres. Saints at best fail daily. First John 3:9 is a call to holiness. Our new natures are pure and holy. Let us live in our experience like we are in our position. Of course, there is a mystery here. John said in 1 John 1:8,10 that believers cannot attain to sinless perfection in their experience. However, we can allow our new natures to dominate our experience so that we live consistently godly lives. May we live like who we are: children of the Holy One who has saved us by His amazing, free grace.

https://faithalone.org/magazine/y1990/90march2.html
HI Red, The best explanation is given by Paul (Rom. 7:7-25; 8:1-39) Paul as a Pharisee thought himself to be perfect under the Law (Phil. 3:4-9). But when He was born again, He finds the law had fooled him, Thus his struggle with the two natures. You can find any answer in Scripture, I myself, may read, but take very few answers from other writers. If you will study these verses, it will answer and make clear 1 John. (Gal. 5:16-26)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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HI Red, The best explanation is given by Paul (Rom. 7:7-25; 8:1-39) Paul as a Pharisee thought himself to be perfect under the Law (Phil. 3:4-9). But when He was born again, He finds the law had fooled him, Thus his struggle with the two natures. You can find any answer in Scripture, I myself, may read, but take very few answers from other writers. If you will study these verses, it will answer and make clear 1 John. (Gal. 5:16-26)
I agree entirely, @Douglas Summers !
 

Dalit

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Red Sky, you said what I was about to say: It's about not habitually practicing sin. It doesn't mean you'll never sin or never sin again. We're not Jesus/Yeshua. There's one Yeshua/Jesus and that is why He had to die because He was the perfect Passover Lamb, the Son of God, and the Son of Man. It doesn't mean we shouldn't work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It doesn't mean we shouldn't question ourselves to see if we're truly in the faith. It bothers me that a lot of people just assume they're safe because they prayed a prayer once and attend church regularly or did attend church, but they look just like the rest of the world. Yet I saw that in me, too, until almost 2 years when I had to fall on my face and repent. I have loved ones who think they're safe yet they've not opened their Bible in 20 years or more and are programmed by the television so I get it and do think it's possible to lose your salvation or maybe never even have it to begin with if you don't continue to the end, keep the faith until the end (Revelation 2-3, about overcomers). Yet maybe it's just escaping barely through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15). To escape barely through fire and be in the kingdom of God is better than not escaping through fire.

But yes, to not habitually practice sin is the point.
 
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Well, the short answer is: no.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

Aka, if you fall away after walking with God(not just backsliding, but complete negligence and rejection), it is impossible to be brought back to be saved.
That doesn’t mean that a person who is ALREADY SAVED will “lose” their salvation. The Bible never says a person can “lose” or have their salvation revoked once they are truly saved.

The passage in Hebrews 6 is (IMHO opinion & to the best of my knowledge and study) describing the making of a reprobate: a person who has understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ clearly & thoroughly yet they fully reject it (this can be the first time they hear the Gospel or the 50th time, we don’t know exactly ..only the reprobate & God knows when this happened) & God therefore rejects them & salvation is no longer even available to them.

They have become damned. Lost forever, and from that point forward, incapable of being saved. Rejected by God: Reprobate.

You see, When a person is on the brink of salvation, there is a moment when that person is teetering on the fence between being unsaved & saved.....that moment that occurs that every saved person has experienced——where God is convicting them of their sinfulness which has made them worthy of everlasting Hell & their utter helplessness to redeem their own soul, then suddenly the Holy Spirit enlightens them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ , revealing the truth of it to their spirit so they understand that it applies to them, & God is showing that person the gift of salvation by grace through faith alone...holding that gift out for the person and offering it to them.

It is in that exact moment that the person makes a choice that will effect them forever:

they either accept that gift : they ask God to give them salvation & He gladly does....the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ is applied to their sins, they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit & sealed until the day of Redemption.
Their salvation is now permanent, they will NOT come under condemnation henceforth.
They are now reborn from above and NO MAN (including themselves) can pluck them out of the Hand of Jesus or the Hand of the Father.

This all happens very quickly, instantaneously upon believing the Gospel & asking God for salvation. It is like lightning striking, and it is over & done before you realize it has happened. And you KNOW it happened...there is no question that you are saved, and you know you will go to Heaven when you die. This has been my experience, and I do not believe anyone who gets saved is uncertain of their salvation—-you KNOW when it happens......

...OR.....

...they reject that gift. They do not want to believe the conviction that God has found them worthy of eternal Hell for their sins. They do not want to believe that they are NOT good enough to please God in their unsaved state, and in their foolish pride (the very same pride that caused Lucifer to fall) they do not believe that they are sinners in need of a Saviour, so they will not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They REJECT it, and instead of trusting Christ, they will cling to the lie that they can redeem their position before God by doing works and CHOOSE to earn their own salvation which is IMPOSSIBLE.

Eventually, they will reject it and harden their heart to try to work their way to Heaven on their own. They are chasing their tail because this is impossible.

And the more they reject it, the closer they become to having GOD decide that He has had enough of their rejection & He will stop offering it. And when He decides He has had enough, He will harden your heart FOR YOU so you cannot believe. It is now too late for that person. They are LOST FOREVER. Reprobate.

Think of Pharaoh. God hardened his heart after he hardened his own. He was drowned in the Red Sea an unbeliever.

Judas Iscariot, who KNEW Jesus Christ and was His treasurer...sold out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver....tried to repent later but it was TOO LATE....Jesus told him it would have been BETTER if he had never been born. Ominous words coming from the Son of God. He went and hanged himself & could NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 6 is about an unbeliever being made reprobate.

A sober lesson for us all.

The time to believe is NOW, while God still offers it. Because you may not get another chance.

God Bless.
 
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Are you a dawg ?




How about take your head out of your a$$ and start to think about how you can help others.
If you are truly saved (which I am concerned that you probably are not, but would like you to be if you can destroy your own pride & trust Jesus ) you ought to know that Daciple is saved, making him our brother in Christ.

“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”......1 John 3:15 KJV

You should tread carefully, Toki.....your responses got really dark really fast.
 
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If one is born of God one cannot break the Ten Commandments.

1 John 3 9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

1 John 3 24 "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
You understand that God is triune, correct?

We are, too, made up of Body of flesh, a spirit and a soul.

Our body does NOT become reborn...the flesh is still sinful.

It is only when Christ returns that our bodies will be changed & glorified.
 

TokiEl

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If you are truly saved (which I am concerned that you probably are not, but would like you to be if you can destroy your own pride & trust Jesus ) you ought to know that Daciple is saved, making him our brother in Christ.
Is he now ?

An author of long Scriptual speculations and an approver of sins.

Absolute unappreciative of knowledge and wisdom.

Not unlike you.



“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”......1 John 3:15 KJV

You should tread carefully, Toki.....your responses got really dark really fast.
Matthew 7 6"Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."
 

TokiEl

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You understand that God is triune, correct?

We are, too, made up of Body of flesh, a spirit and a soul.

Our body does NOT become reborn...the flesh is still sinful.

It is only when Christ returns that our bodies will be changed & glorified.
Yes read 1 John 3 and twist it whatever way you want.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Yes read 1 John 3 and twist it whatever way you want.
A misunderstanding of the English translation of one passage should not lead you to reject the rest of the teaching the Bible provides on the topic @TokiEl

Abiding in sin or abiding in God.
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.


a. Whoever abides in Him does not sin: Since sin is lawlessness, a disregard for God (1 John 3:4), and since Jesus came to take away our sins(1 John 3:5), and since in Jesus there is no sin (1 John 3:5), then to abide in Him means to not sin.

i. It is very important to understand what the Bible means – and what it does not mean – when it says does not sin. According to the verb tense John uses, does not sin means does not live a life style of habitual sin. John has already told us in 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. In 1 John 1:8, the grammar indicates John is speaking about occasional acts of sin. The grammar of 1 John 3:6 indicates that John is speaking of a settled, continued lifestyle of sin. John is not teaching here the possibility of sinless perfection.

ii. “The present tense in the Greek verb implied habit, continuity, unbroken sequence” (Stott); the NIV has the right idea when it translates these verbs with phrases such as keeps on sinning, continues to sin, and he cannot go on sinning.

b. Whoever abides in Him does not sin: John’s message is plain and consistent with the rest of the Scriptures. It tells us that a life style of habitual sin is inconsistent with a life of abiding in Jesus Christ. A true Christian can only be temporarily in a life style of sin.

i. Paul’s teaching in Romans 6 is a great example of this principle. He shows us that when a person comes to Jesus, when his sins are forgiven and God’s grace is extended to him, he is radically changed – the old man is dead, and the new man lives. So it is utterly incompatible for a new creation in Christ to be comfortable in habitual sin; such a place can only be temporary for the Christian.

ii. In some ways, the question is not “Do you sin or not?” We each sin. The question is, “How do you react when you sin? Do you give into the pattern of sin, and let it dominate your lifestyle? Or do you humbly confess your sin, and do battle against it with the power Jesus can give?”

iii. This is why it is so grieving to see Christians make excuses for their sin, and not humbly confess them. Unless the sin is dealt with squarely, it will contribute to a pattern of sin that may soon become their lifestyle – perhaps a secret lifestyle, but a lifestyle nonetheless.

iv. What is important is that we never sign a “peace treaty” with sin. We never wink at its presence or excuse it by saying, “Everybody has his own sinful areas, and this is mine. Jesus understands.” This completely goes against everything we are in Jesus, and the work He has done in our life.

c. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him: To live a lifestyle of habitual sin is to demonstrate that you have not seen Him (in a present sense of the ultimate “seeing Him mentioned in 1 John 3:2), and that you have not known Him. There are some people so great and so wonderful that seeing them or knowing them will change your life forever. Jesus is that kind of person.

https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/1-john-3/
 
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TokiEl

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A misunderstanding of the English translation of one passage should not lead you to reject the rest of the teaching the Bible provides on the topic @TokiEl
What is there to misunderstand in 1 John 3 ?

How come you don't understand that the Devil joined the Church and wrote doctrines... which you regurgitate ?

All i see is an incessant refusal to reject sins.


How are you supposed to uphold Law and Order in the Millennium ?
 

Alanantic

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Remember, only Christians feel a need to be "saved". Doesn't that mean you'll burn for eternity in Hell? I'm sure a few black-hearted Christians think so. Personally, I feel no need to be "saved". I always pray to...whoever's listening...that I be rid of my delusions. My life's been a real 'eye opener'!
 

TokiEl

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Remember, only Christians feel a need to be "saved".
I don't know if you got the memo... so this is the time to reiterate.

If in trouble shout out His saving Name and be saved from whatever whether aliens rapists sickness whatever.

If you know His name and are not afraid to say it... Jesus got your back man.
 
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