Why did Jesus have to die? Isn't that just immoral?

[cum deo ambulo]

The focus is always on death, not resurrection. "He died for your sins". "His blood washed you". Etc. Churches and necks of Christians sport crosses, never empty tombs.

Yes, his death is the focus, to bear our sins as a 'human sacrifice' but since he is not just merely a 'human sacrifice' (100% human flesh, 100 % god as he never sinned), he resurrects.

I like your point of view, diverse and full of info, like a good brain storming exercise.

Christians are never guaranteed free passes to heaven.
Before i accept Jesus as Saviour, i am a sinner and if i believe He died on the cross for me and resurrects, then i am in His Grace, granted the right to be His children. That is Grace.
After I become a Christian, I should practice what he preaches and live my life according to His teachings, because i love Him and would want to please him. Faith should be accompanied with Actions, so that they know we are your disciples. > not exactly word by word in the bible, but the meaning is there. I am too lazy to quote word by word as some of you are.

And God do say that He will "spit out the followers that is lukewarm" aka fake followers with empty talks with no actions to serve him, to preach his words etc.

So no, we do not say: yes Lord Jesus i accept You to be my saviour and guaranteed a pass to heaven.
Being a Christian should be hard / IS HARD because we are walking through the "narrow road".

Hope i get my points across.
And actually Islam and Christianity is not that different, except the "Jesus as Saviour" part.
Jesus who never sinned shows his divinity but he is also human who feels the same as we are and have the needs that we have.
He is the 1 time ultimate sacrifice to redeem us from eternal death.
and it has to be Him because He is Pure and Innocent.
How do you clean a dirty place with a dirty broom?
you can't. you need a clean broom.

1 final thing, He lives.

 

[elsbet]

The focus is always on death, not resurrection. "He died for you". "His blood washed away your sins". Etc. Churches and necks of Christians sport crosses, never empty tombs.

His death is inseparable from His resurrection.

"And Jesus having uttered a loud cry, yielded the spirit, and the veil of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom, and the centurion who was standing over-against him, having seen that, having so cried out, he yielded the spirit, said, ‘Truly this man was Son of God.’
MARK 15:38

Spoiler

But Thomas, one of the Twelve, the onecalled Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger into the mark of the nails, and put my hands into His side, I will never believe.”

And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them, the doors having been shut. Jesus comes, and He stood in the midst and said, “Peace to you.” Then He says to Thomas, “Bring your finger here, and see My hands; and bring your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.”

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus says to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed arethose not having seen, yet having believed.”

So indeed Jesus also did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name.
JOHN 20:24-31

 

[JoChris]

Yes, his death is the focus, to bear our sins as a 'human sacrifice' but since he is not just merely a 'human sacrifice' (100% human flesh, 100 % god as he never sinned), he resurrects.

I like your point of view, diverse and full of info, like a good brain storming exercise.

Christians are never guaranteed free passes to heaven.
Before i accept Jesus as Saviour, i am a sinner and if i believe He died on the cross for me and resurrects, then i am in His Grace, granted the right to be His children. That is Grace.
After I become a Christian, I should practice what he preaches and live my life according to His teachings, because i love Him and would want to please him. Faith should be accompanied with Actions, so that they know we are your disciples. > not exactly word by word in the bible, but the meaning is there. I am too lazy to quote word by word as some of you are.

And God do say that He will "spit out the followers that is lukewarm" aka fake followers with empty talks with no actions to serve him, to preach his words etc.

So no, we do not say: yes Lord Jesus i accept You to be my saviour and guaranteed a pass to heaven.
Being a Christian should be hard / IS HARD because we are walking through the "narrow road".

Hope i get my points across.
And actually Islam and Christianity is not that different, except the "Jesus as Saviour" part.
Jesus who never sinned shows his divinity but he is also human who feels the same as we are and have the needs that we have.
He is the 1 time ultimate sacrifice to redeem us from eternal death.
and it has to be Him because He is Pure and Innocent.
How do you clean a dirty place with a dirty broom?
you can't. you need a clean broom.

1 final thing, He lives.

I like the general tone of your message but there are major theological differences between 6th century AD Islam* and biblical Christianity.
Islam claims Jesus is only a man and that He didn't even die on the cross (Gnostic heresy).
https://carm.org/comparison-grid-between-christianity-and-islamic-doctrine

* religion formed by a man born 5 centuries after Jesus Christ

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The focus is always on death, not resurrection. "He died for you". "His blood washed away your sins". Etc. Churches and necks of Christians sport crosses, never empty tombs.

Excellent observation.

 

[TokiEl]

The thing is, the mainstream Christian theology states that Jesus was not only God, but also 100% human. In the gospels, Jesus is portrayed as a lesser being than the Father. Jesus himself says that he simply does what the Father tells him to do, and without the Father directing he doesn't do anything. Jesus doesn't know everything, only the Father does. Jesus prays to the Father and asks him to forgive people or let the fate of being sacrificed on the cross pass him. We see Jesus described as a human, being born, growing up, feeling hungry, tired, upset, sorrowful and happy at different times. He's very much a man. And he's specifically called a sacrifice, the lamb of God.

You see Jesus insists on being God in the gospels.

And that's why He was crucified.

He was crucified for insisting to be God lol.

Ah you cherry pickers of Bible verses...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You see Jesus insists on being God in the gospels.

And that's why He was crucified.

He was crucified for insisting to be God lol.

Ah you cherry pickers of Bible verses...

The point you make is key to this question. The Trinity is unique and without it, you cannot understand the "point" behind much NT doctrine! It also has the challenge that people divide along lines of logic here...

As our Muslim friends say, 1+1+1 does not equal 1 (and as I usually say in reply, 1x1x1 does).

Without faith that Jesus is who he claimed to be, salvation, atonement, justification etc don't hang together logically. In denying or diminishing the Trinity, you faith soon becomes like a ship with a hole in it and before too long, you will sink.

This little scene captures the relationship between faith and logic (from where we stand) very well:

In accepting the Trinity, you can look back at the work of Jesus and like Indy throws the stones having crossed the bridge, the way becomes much clearer.

 

[TokiEl]

The point you make is key to this question. The Trinity is unique and without it, you cannot understand the "point" behind much NT doctrine! It also has the challenge that people divide along lines of logic here...

As our Muslim friends say, 1+1+1 does not equal 1 (and as I usually say in reply, 1x1x1 does).

Exactly. And besides how is it that created beings dare to be bombastic about their Creator ?

Are they not afraid to insult God ?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Exactly. And besides how is it that created beings dare to be bombastic about their Creator ?

Are they not afraid to insult God ?

Lol - if you had kids you would understand! Mine often feel able to tell me things (from their knowledge of the world) that don't quite add up. It's amusing when applied to their wider understanding of life and sometimes annoying when it comes to understanding me!

I am so glad that God is gracious and merciful towards our faltering understanding of him. I love the words of this song...

 

[TokiEl]

What is it that proves Jesus Christ is God ?

Is it walking on water or turning it into wine ? Is it giving eyesight to the blind or exorcising demons ? Is it raising up dead or washing the feet of servants ? Is it raising Himself from the dead or ascending to heaven in a cloud ?

Is it the tens of thousands of testimonies about Him ? Is it that His story makes sense ?

Is it that His birth on earth was written in the stars ? And that the time of His visitation was foretold long ago by an angel exactly to the day ?


I think i could go on and on... but as He said... the wicked will never understand !

 

[Haich]

Is it walking on water or turning it into wine ? Is it giving eyesight to the blind or exorcising demons ? Is it raising up dead or washing the feet of servants ? Is it raising Himself from the dead or ascending to heaven in a cloud ?

Moses parted the sea with his staff. Does that make him God?

The prophets were able to perform miraculous things because God gave them the means to do so. Solomon had the ability to control jinn, again, none of this makes them equal to God as it is He who bestowed their limited abilities.

So I don't see how that confirms Jesus's Godliness. Other prophets had abilities too.

 

[Damien50]

@Red Sky at Morning the burden of explanation seems to always be at the feet of the Christians rather than on those that criticize. It's so much easier to, without context or time invested, criticize when an individual hasn't had to study to learn. There being a clear line drawn from the old Testament to the new showing why the flesh was crucified, why the resurrection was necessary but the criticism isn't over that but over a premise that wasn't studied and subsequently isn't understood.

 

[TokiEl]

I don't hear @Bacsi, whom you quote, cherry-picking. I think he is correct. Jesus, in orthodox Christianity, is considered 100% God and 100% man. In fact, if one denies that he was a man, having come "in the flesh," one doesn't pass the litmus test provided by St. John {click} here. The technical term, and one that @Bacsi also rightly used earlier, is homoousios, that God and Christ are "consubstantial," of the same substance, and it was a over a single diphthong, an "i," which changed the word to homoiousios, of "similar substance," which contributed to the rise of monophysitism, a Christological controversy which rocked and rolled through Christendom, including up into Syria, and ultimately interacted with Islam (trigger warning: a Nestorian monk, Bahira, is said, by Islamic sources, to have confirmed the child Muhammad as a prophet when he traveled to Syria with his uncle). Many of the Eastern Churches, including Ethiopian Copts, are monophysite to this day.

Jesus in fact insists to be God in the gospels.

So it is ridiculous when people use the gospels to try to prove that He was not God.

As to His humanity yes his biological body was provided by Mary and God... and that's why He is called the Son of God as God actually is the Father of His physical body. But there is more to God than just one Person. And that's what people have a hard time understanding... They think that God is just like them... but He is not !

 

[TokiEl]

Moses parted the sea with his staff. Does that make him God?

The prophets were able to perform miraculous things because God gave them the means to do so. Solomon had the ability to control jinn, again, none of this makes them equal to God as it is He who bestowed their limited abilities.

So I don't see how that confirms Jesus's Godliness. Other prophets had abilities too.

Sure but Jesus insists that He is God... and that's why He was crucified.

 

[Bacsi]

the wicked will never understand !

It's wicked to believe God performed human sacrifice.

 

[Bacsi]

Jesus repeats Prophet Hosea {click} here, but I think it safe to conclude that Christianity interprets, in its characteristically paradoxical manner, that mercy was obtained by way of sacrifice, and that not by the blood of sacrificial animals, but by the blood of the High Priest himself.

This linguistic acrobatics in the Bible doesn't change the hard fact of the matter - God is said to perform a sacrifice of life. Human life...

 

[EpistemiX]

This linguistic acrobatics in the Bible doesn't change the hard fact of the matter - God is said to perform a sacrifice of life. Human life...

Yes, this inconsistency is what lets the bible down. Jonah's people repented and fasted and even made their livestock fast. And God accepted their repentance because it was sincere. Where was the blood atonement? No animals were sacrificed. Let alone humans!

 

[TokiEl]

It's wicked to believe God performed human sacrifice.

Jesus was no ordinary human but God himself.

And since humans don't know God and are deceived by the devil... so they sin and go to hell.

But because God atoned with His blood for our sins... we got a chance to stop sinning and not go to hell.

Do you understand what i'm saying to you ?

 

[TokiEl]

Yes, this inconsistency is what lets the bible down. Jonah's people repented and fasted and even made their livestock fast. And God accepted their repentance because it was sincere. Where was the blood atonement? No animals were sacrificed. Let alone humans!

The blood atonement was Jesus Christ.

It was still in the future in the time of Jonah but as the blood atonement of God was already decided upon before the creation of the world it was just as valid for the Ninivites.

 

[Bacsi]

Yes, his death is the focus, to bear our sins as a 'human sacrifice' but since he is not just merely a 'human sacrifice' (100% human flesh, 100 % god as he never sinned), he resurrects.

I like your point of view, diverse and full of info, like a good brain storming exercise.

Christians are never guaranteed free passes to heaven.
Before i accept Jesus as Saviour, i am a sinner and if i believe He died on the cross for me and resurrects, then i am in His Grace, granted the right to be His children. That is Grace.
After I become a Christian, I should practice what he preaches and live my life according to His teachings, because i love Him and would want to please him. Faith should be accompanied with Actions, so that they know we are your disciples. > not exactly word by word in the bible, but the meaning is there. I am too lazy to quote word by word as some of you are.

And God do say that He will "spit out the followers that is lukewarm" aka fake followers with empty talks with no actions to serve him, to preach his words etc.

So no, we do not say: yes Lord Jesus i accept You to be my saviour and guaranteed a pass to heaven.
Being a Christian should be hard / IS HARD because we are walking through the "narrow road".

Hope i get my points across.
And actually Islam and Christianity is not that different, except the "Jesus as Saviour" part.
Jesus who never sinned shows his divinity but he is also human who feels the same as we are and have the needs that we have.
He is the 1 time ultimate sacrifice to redeem us from eternal death.
and it has to be Him because He is Pure and Innocent.
How do you clean a dirty place with a dirty broom?
you can't. you need a clean broom.

1 final thing, He lives.

Thank you for kind words.

You seem not to hold to "once saved always saved" doctrine. Faith + works. The Orthodox Christians beleive that way. It's fairly good. It's closer to the truth.

 

[Bacsi]

Sure but Jesus insists that He is God... and that's why He was crucified.

In a sense, all life is God.