Who is Michael the Archangel?

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Michael is one of many....

https://biblehub.com/daniel/10-13.htm

New International Version
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

New Living Translation
But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

English Standard Version
The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

Berean Study Bible
However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

New American Standard Bible
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

King James Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Christian Standard Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me after I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Contemporary English Version
But the guardian angel of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then Michael, who is one of the strongest guardian angels, came to rescue me from the kings of Persia.

Good News Translation
The angel prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief angels, came to help me, because I had been left there alone in Persia.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me after I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you (your spirit-Beings) [are] children of the Most High.
82:7 But ye (your Beings) shall die like men (humans), and fall like one of the princes. (Rev. 12:7-9)

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Hebrews 1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
King of kings' bible
 
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Renegade

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Not according to my Bible.




You missed the point that was explained above. I'll repost the part you clearly disagree with.

"This is an unfortunate translation in the King James. The word “one” comes from the Hebrew word “echad,” which is also frequently translated as “first,” as in the president’s wife being called “first lady.” (See Genesis 1:5; 8:13.)"

Do you disagree with what the word means in Hebrew? Do you speak and read Hebrew?

Even though you disagree with the explanation of this one verse it doesn't remove the fact that the Prince is Michael who is Jesus Christ Himself as I've proved with Scripture.
Not even close..
The plural comes from "haś·śā·rîm" plural of "8269. sar"
I gave you 10 translations here's the rest... Not one agrees with you..

International Standard Version
However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then all of a sudden, Michael, one of the chief angels, came to assist me! I had been detained there near the kings of Persia.

NET Bible
However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia was opposing me for twenty-one days. But Michael, one of the leading princes, came to help me, because I was left there with the kings of Persia.

New Heart English Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, look, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was left there with the kings of Persia.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The commander of the Persian kingdom opposed me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the chief commanders, came to help me because I was left alone with the kings of Persia.

JPS Tanakh 1917
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I was left over there beside the kings of Persia.

New American Standard 1977
“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days: and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

King James 2000 Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; for I had remained there with the kings of Persia.

American King James Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, see, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

American Standard Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians withstood me twenty-one days: and behold, Michael, one of the princes, came to help me; and I left him there with the chief of the kingdom of the Persians:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the king of the Persians.

Darby Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

English Revised Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Webster's Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

World English Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Young's Literal Translation
'And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;
 
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phipps

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Not even close..
The plural comes from "haś·śā·rîm" plural of "8269. sar"
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/echad.html

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h259

So I guess its what you choose to believe. I have posted overwhelming evidence that the Prince is Christ. That is the truth of the Bible and disagreeing with what a word or words means in one verse won't change that.

Daniel 10:21 tells of "Michael your prince," and Daniel 12:1 of Michael, "the great prince." But this Prince is also the Messiah, for we read of "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25.
 
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Daciple

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Don't presume to know me better than myself. I have made no secret of the fact that I think Adventist doctrine is closest to biblical doctrine. I also have made no secret that I post on subjects I know and have known about for years from Amazing discoveries (Professor Walter Veith) and Amazingfacts (Pastor Doug Batchelor) where this post is actually from. I also post from other adventist sources and use my own words if I feel I won't struggle to explain myself because I'm not good at writing.
You have stated you are not a Seventh Day Adventist and then post every single doctrine in agreement with them citing almost strictly from them as your source. Therefore you are a SDA but for whatever reason refuse to claim it. I mean IDC personally but when someone asked, I gave them my opinion which is that view you as closet SDA.

Just like if I were to tell you that I believed Joseph Smith was a Prophet, that an Angel called Moroni visited him and that the Book of Mormon was sent by God and cited a Latter Day Saints website and a popular proponent of Mormonism, you could rightly call me a Mormon. For me to deny such a thing wouldnt be congruent with what I am saying and citing all the time. And it would be ludicrous for me to get upset when others point out the fact that I am basically a Mormon when I subscribe to all the Doctrines that qualify one as being a Mormon, but hey if you dont want to call yourself a SDA then so be it, but it seems kind of disingenuous for you not to...

If Adventists are a cult can you prove It? Its not enough to say something like that and live it there.
What exactly constitutes a proof of a Cult to you? Clearly no matter which of their Doctrines I show are against the Bible and speak on the formation of them and the bi-laws that one must accept to join that "Church" you wont accept they are a Cult. Thats the thing with Cult members they are always to blind to see that they are apart of a Cult and end up defending everything taught by the Cult regardless of what evidence is brought to their attention.

First and foremost, in their Doctrine it is clearly stated that THEY are the only "True Church" that all other Churches apart from them are deceived and essentially are part of and will be part of the Beast System. The #1 sign of a Cult is that it singles itself out as THE only "Church" or belief or sect that has the "True" understanding of Scripture. Then they buttress themselves up against all other sect and beliefs to try and label everything outside of them and their understanding as Satanic and make statements that if you dont belong to their "Church" you are going to Hell or the wording more closely associated with their Doctrine, be apart of the Beast System.

Look at other Cults, such as Mormonism, if you are not a Mormon you are going to Hell. Catholicism, if you are not part of the Catholic Church, you are going to Hell. Islam, if you dont believe in Muhammad and their Doctrine, you are going to Hell. On and on I can go with how the #1 sign of a Cult is they declare themselves as the "True" or "Correct" Church/understanding and declare those who dont accept or join as being condemned to Hell.

Secondly, as in the case of almost every Cult, you have a self declared "Prophet" that gives them this new understanding or creates the Church. Ellen G White is the "Prophet" that SDA advocates has given to us the new revelation and is who SDA states is their Prophet, with her special revelations from God. And of course according to their bi-laws in order to be apart of their Church you have to accept her as a Prophet. When coupled with the 1st fact, this means that in order to "really" be saved and "really" be a follower of Jesus you have to accept her as your Prophet so you can be apart of the "real" Church.

Do you need me to prove to you she is a False Prophet?

The Church was also established believing in heresy, if you research her and her husband it is clear that they denied the Trinity. On top of that they were established as coming out of the another Cult called the Millerities in which another Cult Leader William Miller another supposed "Prophet" made a Prophecy concerning the Return of Jesus Christ which of course was False. If you would like to research it, it is called the Great Disappointment. While William repented and stated he was wrong and shouldnt have made the Prophecy and it was completely False and Jesus truly didnt come back, Ellen G White and the Cult she founded stated that Jesus DID Return.

Which leads us to yet another thing that makes SDA the Cult that it is, is the fact that it continues to profess and hold to this complete heresy and garbage that Jesus Christ Returned in 1844, and then builds other heresies on top of it to make it seem like this is a legit doctrine. And they also create more False Doctrine in order to cover up other False Prophecies that Ellen G White gave. One such thing would be the Investigative Judgement. I am not gonna get into the details but if you take anytime to research it, you will notice very quickly that it is completely false and amounts to heresy.

These are a few of multiple reasons why Seventh Day Adventistism is a Cult, another being this heretical idea that Jesus is Michael, which we are discussing at them moment. The idea that we need to be keeping the Sabbath as the Jews did, and that worshiping Christ on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast are among some of the other things that are if not heretical then completely against Scripture...

It is wilful ignorance to say the truth?
Well its not the Truth so...

You are so arrogant and think you know everything in the Bible as I've read some of your posts. Do you think you know the complete truth of the Bible?
I could say the same thing for you, you think you or Walter Veith or whatever other SDA you copypaste knows everything in the Bible and therefore since you are bringing your or their opinion into the forum/debate, clearly you are an arrogant know it all. Do you think you/they know the complete truth of the Bible?

See how stupid that argument is? I have my own views and I give them and then I usually give very detailed reasons as to why I believe as I do. Apparently to you, because I disagree with things you or should I say SDA state, and say so, that makes me an arrogant know it all. I clearly dont know everything but I do know that Jesus isnt Michael and that SDA is a Cult...

How then don't you know this truth?
Because I can read clear Scripture, like the one I gave you. Michael is a created being and an Angel, Jesus Christ is God who wasnt created and never did the Father say to any of the Angels you are my Son. Pretty clear blatant Scripture, it takes your pages of twisting Scripture to hope to get around that simple verse.

Michael raises the dead.
Daniel 12:1
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Jesus and Michael raise the dead.

1Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."
Absolutely none of that says Michael raises the dead, again clear twisting of Scripture. Anyone who reads these Scriptures in context without the preconceived ideology you profess can understand that none of that proves anything concerning Jesus being Michael. Let me clue you in on something you might want to consider concerning your position. Bible Student there, he follows a False Prophet who takes basically every single heresy and false doctrine that has every been created and has lumped it all into his False Religion. Of course he believes this False Doctrine, that alone may be something to make you think twice, because to be honest I dont know if he has professed any True Doctrine on this site...

I know that is extremely peripheral as to why this is a False Doctrine, but it is something I feel ought to be pointed out...

We know there is only one person referred to as the arch angel in scripture. Michael. The evidence is that the voice of Jesus and the voice of the arch angel raise the dead. But it is clear that the dead are raised by Jesus. The abundance of evidence is that Jesus and Michael must be the same person. The only other conclusion would be that Jesus delegated the resurrection to Michael. But that would not harmonise with scripture would it? Only God can raise the dead.
You are inserting your ideology on top of verses that are not even close to stating what you would wish them to. First of all the ONLY Scripture relevant to what you were saying is 1 Thes 4:16, neither of the other ones have any relevance to what you are stating. So all that verse is saying is that along with Christ descending is a shout, a voice, and a trump. Is Jesus shouting and blowing a Trumpet at the same time?

Or is this just describing what things come along with Christ and the timing of the event? What really makes more sense that Jesus is Michael despite the very clear Scriptures that shows that no Angel has been called the Son of God, or how about the fact that ALL the Angels (aka other Archangels) were made to Worship Christ, or even more so this Scripture:

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Clearly the World to come has NOT been put into the subjection of ANY Angels (including Archangels) however we KNOW that the World to come and EVERYTHING ELSE has been put under subjection of Christ.

Or how about this Scripture:

1 Corth 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Do you think it is not blasphemous to state that we will Judge Jesus Christ? Of course it is, however we will be Judging ALL the Angels including Michael.

So what makes more sense that Jesus has the literal voice of Michael (one of many Archangels as Archangel simply means an Angel that is in charge of others essentially) or that Jesus comes with the shout and a voice of an Archangel? Well when I take this verse into consideration I believe it is the latter rather than former:

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

So we see with zero doubts that Jesus comes with ALL the Holy Angels, so if we want to NOT break Scripture that tells us Jesus isnt an Angel and that all the Angels worshiped Him (something strictly forbidden them to do to a created being, like an Angel) then we can discern that the voice is ONE of the Angels that Jesus comes with, not the literal voice of Jesus or even Michael.

Then you clearly don't understand the Bible as you portray yourself to do you?
Yeah I can say the same for you...

Nothing I've posted is blasphemous but I think its sad when seasoned Christians cannot tell the truth of the Bible when its right in their face.
Yes what you said is blasphemous and I can say the same thing to you, you can not tell the Truth of the Bible when it is right in your face, instead you want to follow the False Leaders and Cult of SDA and whatever it is they tell you to believe...

Joshua bowed down and worshipped an angel of the Lord? Do you know any unfallen angels who accept worship? Only God accepts worship. You don't know this because your doctrine on this subject is not biblical. Instead of being arrogant why don't you pray for God to show you the truth of His Word.
Once again I can say the same thing to you. It is not arrogant to disagree with you, just as I truly dont think it is arrogant for you to disagree with me. And we can discern from the entire context of Scriptures that Angel of the Lord is the Pre Incarnate Jesus Christ, which is made distinctly DIFFERENT and SEPARATE from Michael. Michael is a NAME ANGEL, just like Gabriel, what you are trying to teach or actually what SDA teaches is tantamount to saying Jesus and Gabriel are the same. That is horrible thing to say and you and I know it...

Can created beings raise the dead and accept worship? According to my Bible only God can do the things Michael does. So I will stick to the Bible and not your man made false doctrine.
Well the Bible definitely doesnt say that Michael accepts worship or raises the dead. The verses you tried to show for these definitely does not show such things, it is just you imposing your belief on the Scripture instead of letting the Scripture be the Scripture.

And by all means stand by a Doctrine held by almost every Cult on the planet, no skin off my back...

I don't know much about Ellen G White but the little I've read of her books she speaks according to the Bible. Can you prove otherwise? Back up these accusations.
She made multiple False Prophecies and teaches that Jesus came back in 1844, do you believe such lies?

If you really want me to go into detail with all of the problems of Ellen G White I can, I however dont have the time right now, I am about to leave work. Just look up Failed Prophecies of Ellen G White, look up the Investigative Judgement that will start you down the correct path in understanding who she is and what she believed.

Also in case you dont know there was another Cult Leader that came out of the same failed Prophecy of Miller, his name is Charles T Russel and he created the Jehovah Witnesses holding to the same false doctrine that Jesus came back in 1844. Guess what else that Cult teaches?

Thats right that Jesus is Michael...

You're a coward who couldn't even address me directly in my own forum and went through someone else. Well I will reply you directly as I am no coward.
Lol calling me a coward because I gave someone my opinion of you? Are you seriously this thinned skinned? I have addressed you directly in other Threads and I have no problems addressing you directly when I disagree with you.
 

phipps

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@Daciple

You have stated you are not a Seventh Day Adventist and then post every single doctrine in agreement with them citing almost strictly from them as your source. Therefore you are a SDA but for whatever reason refuse to claim it. I mean IDC personally but when someone asked, I gave them my opinion which is that view you as closet SDA.
I have told you what I am but I believe Adventist doctrine. If you don't believe that, that is up to you but don't tell me what I am thank you very much! There is nothing wrong and shame in being Adventist though as you're trying to make others believe in here. For me the truth trumps religions. I find that Adventist doctrine is close to the Bible than any other Christian religion on earth.

Just like if I were to tell you that I believed Joseph Smith was a Prophet, that an Angel called Moroni visited him and that the Book of Mormon was sent by God and cited a Latter Day Saints website and a popular proponent of Mormonism, you could rightly call me a Mormon. For me to deny such a thing wouldnt be congruent with what I am saying and citing all the time. And it would be ludicrous for me to get upset when others point out the fact that I am basically a Mormon when I subscribe to all the Doctrines that qualify one as being a Mormon, but hey if you dont want to call yourself a SDA then so be it, but it seems kind of disingenuous for you not to...
Unless you explained like I have what I believe and why. I have told the truth but I don't care if you don't believe me. You don't know me from Adam and you are a faceless person to me.

What exactly constitutes a proof of a Cult to you? Clearly no matter which of their Doctrines I show are against the Bible and speak on the formation of them and the bi-laws that one must accept to join that "Church" you wont accept they are a Cult. Thats the thing with Cult members they are always to blind to see that they are apart of a Cult and end up defending everything taught by the Cult regardless of what evidence is brought to their attention.
According to the oxford living dictionary,
cult
  • noun
    • 1A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
      ‘the cult of St Olaf’
    1. 1.1 A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
      ‘a network of Satan-worshipping cults’

  • 1.2 A misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing.
    ‘the cult of the pursuit of money as an end in itself’

  • 2A person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.
    ‘the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK’

So according to that definition of cult Adventism is NOT a cult.

First and foremost, in their Doctrine it is clearly stated that THEY are the only "True Church" that all other Churches apart from them are deceived and essentially are part of and will be part of the Beast System. The #1 sign of a Cult is that it singles itself out as THE only "Church" or belief or sect that has the "True" understanding of Scripture. Then they buttress themselves up against all other sect and beliefs to try and label everything outside of them and their understanding as Satanic and make statements that if you dont belong to their "Church" you are going to Hell or the wording more closely associated with their Doctrine, be apart of the Beast System.
Unless they are telling the truth. Knowing their doctrine and having studied the Bible for years they are right. Having studied the Bible for years their doctrine is the closest doctrine of the Bible however that not to say they are perfect. I have never read any Adventist writings that says one has belong to their Church or they will go to hell or anything close to that. They just teach the truth and sometimes they will mention a religion that preaches untruths of the Bible depending on the subject matter. Like the Papacy which they state is the Antichrist and the first beast of Revelation 13. Its the truth and Christians should preach the truth no matter how difficult it is or how well accepted it will be. Most people don't accept the truth. That is why only a minority will make it to heaven.

Look at other Cults, such as Mormonism, if you are not a Mormon you are going to Hell. Catholicism, if you are not part of the Catholic Church, you are going to Hell. Islam, if you dont believe in Muhammad and their Doctrine, you are going to Hell. On and on I can go with how the #1 sign of a Cult is they declare themselves as the "True" or "Correct" Church/understanding and declare those who dont accept or join as being condemned to Hell.
I can see your point but SDA's are right about their doctrine. Now where I disagree with them is you don't have to be a part of their Church to know the truth. I study their doctrine because its the truth but one doesn't have to be Adventist to accept it. The problem is where to get baptised? Well there are small Churches that believe in Adventist doctrine but are not SDA's.

Secondly, as in the case of almost every Cult, you have a self declared "Prophet" that gives them this new understanding or creates the Church. Ellen G White is the "Prophet" that SDA advocates has given to us the new revelation and is who SDA states is their Prophet, with her special revelations from God. And of course according to their bi-laws in order to be apart of their Church you have to accept her as a Prophet. When coupled with the 1st fact, this means that in order to "really" be saved and "really" be a follower of Jesus you have to accept her as your Prophet so you can be apart of the "real" Church.
The much I know about Ellen G White (which is more than you), she is a true prophet of God. The Bible does tell us there will be prophets in the last days and she is one of them. The way she got her visions fall in line with the how the Bible prophets got their visions. Also I have read the Great Controversy which is her most famous book and she leads the reader back to the Bible. I understand God better after reading that book. Have you read any of her writings?

I accept her as a prophet.

Do you need me to prove to you she is a False Prophet?

The Church was also established believing in heresy, if you research her and her husband it is clear that they denied the Trinity. On top of that they were established as coming out of the another Cult called the Millerities in which another Cult Leader William Miller another supposed "Prophet" made a Prophecy concerning the Return of Jesus Christ which of course was False. If you would like to research it, it is called the Great Disappointment. While William repented and stated he was wrong and shouldnt have made the Prophecy and it was completely False and Jesus truly didnt come back, Ellen G White and the Cult she founded stated that Jesus DID Return.
Have you read a full book of Ellen G White? Research from people who don't agree with her does not cut it for me. You've not even taken a look at the other side of the coin. Its boring quite frankly. Talk to me after you read one or two of her books and you will see that you're wrong. She never said Jesus returned in 1844. He clearly didn't return in 1844. Get your facts straight at least will you?

I chose to test her instead of trusting what those against her had said about her and of course I read a lot like what you've written here. I know you're wrong and lying to. Stop it!

Which leads us to yet another thing that makes SDA the Cult that it is, is the fact that it continues to profess and hold to this complete heresy and garbage that Jesus Christ Returned in 1844, and then builds other heresies on top of it to make it seem like this is a legit doctrine. And they also create more False Doctrine in order to cover up other False Prophecies that Ellen G White gave. One such thing would be the Investigative Judgement. I am not gonna get into the details but if you take anytime to research it, you will notice very quickly that it is completely false and amounts to heresy.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. SDA's do not believe Jesus returned in 1844. Some of them believed He would at first as millerites, but found out they were wrong and went back to study their Bibles. Wherever you found this history its a half truth and that makes it a lie. Go back and do some better research. You're embarrassing yourself now. Is it worth it just to make a point?

I know about the investigative judgement and its completely biblical. You cannot explain it to me because you don't know about it apart from what you read about it today from a site that disagrees with Adventism and Ellen G White. You are not equipped to explain anything to me and I'll never let you. Its another thing many Christian religions ignore and don't discuss along with the heavenly sanctuary with Jesus as High Priest. I will post about it in another forum some time.

These are a few of multiple reasons why Seventh Day Adventism is a Cult, another being this heretical idea that Jesus is Michael, which we are discussing at them moment. The idea that we need to be keeping the Sabbath as the Jews did, and that worshiping Christ on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast are among some of the other things that are if not heretical then completely against Scripture...
SDA is not a cult and you haven't proved that because what you posted is lies and your point of view is not balanced is it? Lies don't count.

The Bible proves Michael is Jesus not Adventists. God has certain attributes that created beings don't. And the Sabbath was changed by the Catholic Church which they have no authority to do. They claim it themselves. God has never changed the day of worship or any other commandment as I've explained to you over. you've chosen Catholicism over the Word of God on the Sabbath. So I will follow the Sabbath of the Bible and not of tradition or Catholicism which most Christians follow. Most of Christendom is wrong about the Sabbath and you are wrong about Michael. In fact its a small minority of Christians who have Bible truths and SDA'a are one of those people.

The Papacy is the Anti Christ and has said Sunday is its Mark. However only when they try to enforce Sunday Worship will it become its mark that we are warned not to get.

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Chancellor Albert Smith for Cardinal of Baltimore Archdiocese, letter dated February 10, 1920:
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day by God is Saturday. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church."

Well its not the Truth so...
Its the truth and it harmonises with the Bible. You saying it isn't won't change that fact. So that's that! I didn't ask you to come on this forum so if you disagree go to the forums that agree with you and ignore and skip my forums from now on. Okay? Easy peasy!

I could say the same thing for you, you think you or Walter Veith or whatever other SDA you copypaste knows everything in the Bible and therefore since you are bringing your or their opinion into the forum/debate, clearly you are an arrogant know it all. Do you think you/they know the complete truth of the Bible?
I find you extremely rude even when there is no reason to be. I believe they know most of the truth of the Bible because they are theologians. All Adventist Pastors have to have Masters degrees in theology which involves studying the Bible in Greek and Hebrew. But more than that, they let the the Bible interpret itself and show us how and why.

And so what if I copy paste? Like I said to another user don't try and make out that they way you post is better than mine. My aim is to point people to Christ and I find that Pastors who are well versed in explaining things to people are better than me. If you don't like it tough! I like it.

See how stupid that argument is? I have my own views and I give them and then I usually give very detailed reasons as to why I believe as I do. Apparently to you, because I disagree with things you or should I say SDA state, and say so, that makes me an arrogant know it all. I clearly dont know everything but I do know that Jesus isnt Michael and that SDA is a Cult...
But you did not give detailed reason as to what you believe did you? You attacked me personally and said I am a closet SDA and called the Adventists a cult. You said very little about the actual topic of this forum in your initial post that was clearly directed to me indirectly. Thankfully the person you replied to stayed out of it. Do you not see your rudeness coupled with your arrogance to put me down? You should change your attitude and grow up! I don't want to debate with someone who wants to win. This is about the Word of God not you!

I believe I've made my point very clear in this forum from Scripture. So I'm not going to deal with your ramblings which aren't biblical at at all. In most of my discussions with you, you've been mostly wrong. That from someone who thinks they know it all is sad and I pray you find the truth of the bible one day.

Yes what you said is blasphemous and I can say the same thing to you, you can not tell the Truth of the Bible when it is right in your face, instead you want to follow the False Leaders and Cult of SDA and whatever it is they tell you to believe...
I follow the Bible not a religion or its leaders thank you but if you want to believe the opposite go ahead. I won't lose sleep over it.

blasphemy
noun

mass noun
  • The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.
    ‘he was detained on charges of blasphemy’
    count noun ‘he was screaming incomprehensible blasphemies’

Its why I haven't called you a blasphemer even when I vehemently disagree with you most times.


Once again I can say the same thing to you. It is not arrogant to disagree with you, just as I truly dont think it is arrogant for you to disagree with me. And we can discern from the entire context of Scriptures that Angel of the Lord is the Pre Incarnate Jesus Christ, which is made distinctly DIFFERENT and SEPARATE from Michael. Michael is a NAME ANGEL, just like Gabriel, what you are trying to teach or actually what SDA teaches is tantamount to saying Jesus and Gabriel are the same. That is horrible thing to say and you and I know it...
Disagreeing with me is not arrogant. Its your rotten attitude that is.

Well the Bible definitely doesnt say that Michael accepts worship or raises the dead. The verses you tried to show for these definitely does not show such things, it is just you imposing your belief on the Scripture instead of letting the Scripture be the Scripture.
You clearly didn't even understand what I posted if you even bothered to read it. Jesus is not only known as Michael, He is also known as the angel of the Lord. And the angel of the Lord accepts worship. Michael the Archangel or just the Archangel raises the dead with His voice. He is none other than Christ Himself because only God can raise the dead.

So what are you doing on this forum apart from trying to put down my beliefs? You haven't succeeded anyway. I will stick to Bible doctrine and I know its the truth no matter what you say!

And by all means stand by a Doctrine held by almost every Cult on the planet, no skin off my back...
Lol, you are so immature. How old are you?! The doctrine of SDA's is not held by every cult because its not a cult. its not even held by most Christian religions because it is the truth of the Bible. And its only a minority who have the truth. Not the mainline Christian religions. What is sad you can't recognise the truth and instead attack it. You will realise you were wrong in your accusations one day.

She made multiple False Prophecies and teaches that Jesus came back in 1844, do you believe such lies?

If you really want me to go into detail with all of the problems of Ellen G White I can, I however don't have the time right now, I am about to leave work. Just look up Failed Prophecies of Ellen G White, look up the Investigative Judgement that will start you down the correct path in understanding who she is and what she believed.

Also in case you dont know there was another Cult Leader that came out of the same failed Prophecy of Miller, his name is Charles T Russel and he created the Jehovah Witnesses holding to the same false doctrine that Jesus came back in 1844. Guess what else that Cult teaches?

Thats right that Jesus is Michael...
I know more about Ellen G White than you do clearly. And you are wrong as I said previously about them believing Jesus returned in 1844. That is a lie! I would explain with proof but I don't want to, not to you anyway. Just know that you're very wrong.

The SDA's are right about the investigative judgement but I'm sure you got your information from people who disagree with them.

Lol calling me a coward because I gave someone my opinion of you? Are you seriously this thinned skinned? I have addressed you directly in other Threads and I have no problems addressing you directly when I disagree with you.
If you think that's why you're a coward you clearly missed the point. You knew I would read what you wrote. In all the exchanges I have had with you it has been about the Bible and yes we have had differences but this attempt at denigrating me is so sad.

All in all you didn't know much about Adventism at all and clearly just read about it from people who are against Adventism and then relayed it here. You couldn't even get their history right. I am not going to go round in circles with you. You're not worth it and I don't want to. So God bless but in the future I think its best you avoid me. I pray God opens your eyes and ears to the truth about this subject too.

One last thing, stop calling me a cult member. I am not one.
 
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JoChris

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JoChris

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@Daciple



I have told you what I am but I believe Adventist doctrine. If you don't believe that, that is up to you but don't tell me what I am thank you very much! There is nothing wrong and shame in being Adventist though as you're trying to make others believe in here. For me the truth trumps religions. I find that Adventist doctrine is close to the Bible than any other Christian religion on earth.



Unless you explained like I have what I believe and why. I have told the truth but I don't care if you don't believe me. You don't know me from Adam and you are a faceless person to me.



According to the oxford living dictionary,
cult
  • noun
    • 1A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
      ‘the cult of St Olaf’
    1. 1.1 A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
      ‘a network of Satan-worshipping cults’

  • 1.2 A misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing.
    ‘the cult of the pursuit of money as an end in itself’

  • 2A person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.
    ‘the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK’

So according to that definition of cult Adventism is NOT a cult.



Unless they are telling the truth. Knowing their doctrine and having studied the Bible for years they are right. Having studied the Bible for years their doctrine is the closest doctrine of the Bible however that not to say they are perfect. I have never read any Adventist writings that says one has belong to their Church or they will go to hell or anything close to that. They just teach teh truth ans sometimes they will menton a religion that preaches untruths of the Bible depending on the subject matter. Like the Papacy which they state is the Antichrist and the first beast of Reveton 13. Its the truth and Christians should preach the truth no matter how difficult it is or how well accepted it will be. Most people don't accept the truth. That is why only a minority will make it to heaven.



I can see your point but SDA's are right about their doctrine. Now where I disagree with them is you don't have to be a part of their Church to know the truth. I study their doctrine because its the truth but one doesn't have to be Adventist to accept it. The problem is where to get baptised? Well there are small Churches that believe in Adventist doctrine but are not SDA's.



The much I know about Ellen G White (whichis more than you know), she is a true prophet of God. The Bible does tell us there will be prophets in the last days and she is one of them. The way she got her visions fall in line with the how the Bible prophets got their visions. Also I have read the Great Controversy which is her most famous book and she leads the reader back to the Bible. I understand God better after reading that book. Have you read any of her writings?

I accept her as a prophet.



Have you read a full book of Ellen G White? Research from people who don't agree with her does not cut it for me. Talk to me after you read one or two of her books and you will see that you're wrong. I'm in no mood to prove her to you though. I know what I believe because I've actually read some of her writings. I chose to test her instead of trusting what those against her had said about her and of course I read a lot like what you've written here.



You clearly don't know what you're talking about. SDA's do not believe Jesus returned in 1844. They believed that at first, found out they were wrong and went back to study their Bibles. Wherever you found this history its a half truth and that makes it a lie. Go back and do some better research. You're embarrassing yourself now.



SDA is not a cult and you haven't proved that because what you posted is lies. Your lies don't count.

The Bible proves Michael is Jesus not Adventists. And the Sabbath was changed by the Catholic Church which they have no authority to do. They claim it themselves. God has never changed the day of worship as I explained to you. So I will follow the Sabbath of the Bible and not of tradition which most Christians follow. Most of Christendom is wrong about the Sabbath and you are wrong about Michael. In fact its a small minority of Christian who have Bible truths and SDA'a are one of those people.



This is not a contest. I believe its the truth and it harmonises with the Bible. So that's that! I didn't ask you to come on this forum so if you disagree go to the places that agree with you and skip my forums from now on. Okay? Easy peasy!



I find you extremely rude even when there is no reason to be. I believe they know most of the truth of the Bible because they are theologians. All Adventist Pastors have to have Master degrees in theology which involves studying the Bible in Greek and Hebrew. But more than that, they let the the Bible interprete itself and show us how and why.

And so what if I copy paste? Like I said to another user don't try and make out that they way you post is better than mine. My aim is to point people to Christ and I find that Pastors who are well versed in explaining things to people are better than me. If you don't like it tough! I like it.



But you did not give detailed reason as to what you believe did you? You attacked me personally and said I am a closet SDA and called the Adventists a cult. You said very little about the actual topic of this forum in your initial post that was clearly directed to me indirectly. Thankfully the person you replied to stayed out of it. Do you not see your rudeness coupled with your arrogance to put me down? You should change your attitude and grow up! I don't want to debate with someone who wants to win. This is about the Word of God not you!

I am not going to debate with you about what I posted. I believe I've made my point very clear from Scripture.



I follow the Bible not a religion or its leaders thank you but if you want to believe the opposite go ahead. I won't lose sleep over it.

blasphemy
noun

mass noun
  • The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.
    ‘he was detained on charges of blasphemy’
    count noun ‘he was screaming incomprehensible blasphemies’

Its why I haven't called you a blasphemer even when I disagree with you.




Disagreeing with me is not arrogant. Its your rotten attitude that is.



You clearly didn't even understand what I posted if you even bothered to read it. Jesus is not only known as Michael, He is know as the angel of the Lord. Ans the angel of the Lord accepts worship. Michael the arch angel or just the archangel raises the dead with His voice. He is none other than Christ Himself because only God can raise the dead.

So what are you doing on this forum apart from trying to put down my beliefs? You haven't succeeded anyway. I will stick to Bible doctrine and I know its the truth no matter what you say!



Lol, you are so immature. How old are you?!



I know more about Ellen G White more than you do clearly. And you are wrong as I said previously about them believing Jesus returned in 1844. That is a lie! I would explain with proof but I don't want to, not to you anyway.



If you think that's why you're a coward you clearly missed the point. You knew I would read what you wrote. In all the exchanges I have had with you it has been about the Bible and yes we have had differences but this attempt at denigrating me is so sad.

All in all you didn't know much about Adventism at all and clearly just read about it from people who are against Adventism and then relayed it here. You couldn't even get their history right. I am not going to go round in circles with you trying to win. You're not worth it and I don't want to. So God bless but in the future I think its best you avoid me. I pray God opens your eyes and ears to the truth about this subject too.
Are you OK with following the words of a plagarist?
Even SDAs reluctantly admit that. https://www.nonegw.org/egw6.shtml
A plagarist is a deceiver, a liar in "practice", lying by omission, pretending their work is their own doing.

That fact alone should be enough to reject Ellen White and her words. A prophet of God only speaks/ writes the truth.
In real life a student gets an F grade for plagarism. Why do **you** give Ellen White a pass grade Phipps?
 

phipps

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On itablet.
Phipps, two questions.
If Michael the archangel is really Jesus, why didn't he rebuke Satan directly? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1:9&version=KJV
Shouldn't the Lord be able to rebuke Satan without needing to use His own name?

2. search results for "Jesus Christ is Lord". https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Jesus+christ+is+lord&qs_version=KJV
Is michael the archangel in any of those verses?
If Michael the archangel is really Jesus, why didn't he rebuke Satan directly? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1:9&version=KJV
Shouldn't the Lord be able to rebuke Satan without needing to use His own name?
I already posted about this. There are two verses in the Bible where the Lord rebukes Satan in the Lord's name. That first is Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2 which says, "And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” " I don't know why God would do that but there are three persons as God and maybe Jesus rebuked Satan in the Father's name.

2. search results for "Jesus Christ is Lord". https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Jesus+christ+is+lord&qs_version=KJV
Is michael the archangel in any of those verses?
No Michael the Archangel is not mentioned in any of those verses. Jesus has many titles in the Bible and when the Archangel is mentioned He does things only God can do, not created beings. The point is there are clues that tell us its Christ and I've posted those clues directly from Scripture.

Christ is KING of kings,
He is LORD of lords,
He is the PRINCE of princes
The ARCHANGEL of angels.
 
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phipps

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Are you OK with following the words of a plagarist?
Even SDAs reluctantly admit that. https://www.nonegw.org/egw6.shtml
A plagarist is a deceiver, a liar in "practice", lying by omission, pretending their work is their own doing.

That fact alone should be enough to reject Ellen White and her words. A prophet of God only speaks/ writes the truth.
In real life a student gets an F grade for plagarism. Why do **you** give Ellen White a pass grade Phipps?
I don't know what SDA's say about Ellen White's plagiarism. She did not plagiarise as far as I'm concerned.

Why not read a positive article about her too? I've heard all these arguments against her for years btw and I do not believe she is a liar and plagarist. I know I don't.
https://amazingdiscoveries.org/assets/PDF/eBooks/EGWhite/Was_Ellen_G._White_a_Plagiarist.pdf
 
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JoChris

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I already posted about this. There are to verses in the Bible where the Lord rebukes Satan in the Lord's name. That first is Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2 which says, "And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” " I don't why God would do that but there are three persons as God and maybe Jesus rebuked Satan in the Father's name.



No Micheal the arch angel is not mentioned in any of those verses. Jesus has many titles in the Bible and when the Arch angel is mentioned He does things only God can do, not created beings. The point is there are clues that tell us its Christ and I've posted thoe clues directly from Scripture.
Other bible commentaries state the angel of the Lord **in the Old Testament** is Jesus preincarnate. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/zechariah/3-2.htm
https://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html

In the Book of Jude the angel Gabriel is named, the term "angel of the Lord" is not used.

There are plenty of verses where Jesus is clearly called Lord in the New Testament.
 

JoChris

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I don't know what SDA's says about Ellen White's plagiarism. She did not plagiarise as far as I'm concerned.

Why not read a positive article about her too? I've heard all these arguments against her for years btw and I do not believe a liar and plagarist. I know I don't.
https://amazingdiscoveries.org/assets/PDF/eBooks/EGWhite/Was_Ellen_G._White_a_Plagiarist.pdf
So you are actually admitting will only believe links which **support** Ellen White?
... OK then. You are determined to believe her not the truth then.

See ya.
 

phipps

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Other bible commentaries state the angel of the Lord **in the Old Testament** is Jesus preincarnate. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/zechariah/3-2.htm
https://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html

In the Book of Jude the angel Gabriel is named, the term "angel of the Lord" is not used.

There are plenty of verses where Jesus is clearly called Lord in the New Testament.
Yes Jesus is pre incarnate but appeared to His people and guided them. He has always been involved with His people and always will be.

Did I say the angel of the Lord was mentioned in the book of Jude? Gabriel is not mentioned in in Jude 1:9. Michael the Archangel is and that is not the angel Gabriel otherwise the Bible would have said so.

Again did I say Jesus is not called Lord in the New Testament? I know He is. The subject of this forum is about Michael the Archangel. So when the Archangel is mentioned it is clearly Jesus as I've posted.
 
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phipps

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So you are actually admitting will only believe links which **support** Ellen White?
... OK then. You are determined to believe her not the truth then.

See ya.
No I'm saying read both sides of the argument before you jump to conclusions. I have and know about these accusations about her. Its the reason I read her books in the first place.

I've read a few Ellen G White's books and I know she is a prophet of God. She also didn't plagiarise and it was proven. There is more to this subject than just reading links that support her too. Have you read any of her writings? Until you do you cannot just believe what you read about her which is mostly negative. You haven't tested her as we are told to do in the Bible.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).
 
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Allegra

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Yup, have to repeat this again.
HEBREW 2:5
For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.


Yup that is including ArchANGEL.

Also, angels including Archangels are ministering spirit, hence why Michael the Archangel was sent to protect Israel.

I'm sorry but this is just what crossed my mind, saying Michael the Archangel is Jesus is like another lies came from satan himself. Why is that. Because satan aka ex-cherub wanted to be like God. He wanted to be God. But he can't because he was an angel, a created being, he can't be a creator, can't be God. Saying Jesus is an archANGEL is a heresy and blasphemy because you put God in the position of an angel.

maybe Jesus rebuked Satan in the Father's name
If Michael was Jesus, he should've known that his name is powerful. That's why when Jesus rebuked He just said get the heck outta here satan and He also rebuked with the Scriptures.

Anyhow, I'm gonna unfollow this thread, because there will be no end. I'm not replying you to make you change your belief, I'm replying you to just to give you the reasons why it is not true. The seed has been planted.

 

phipps

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Yup, have to repeat this again.
HEBREW 2:5
For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.


Yup that is including ArchANGEL.

Also, angels including Archangels are ministering spirit, hence why Michael the Archangel was sent to protect Israel.

I'm sorry but this is just what crossed my mind, saying Michael the Archangel is Jesus is like another lies came from satan himself. Why is that. Because satan aka ex-cherub wanted to be like God. He wanted to be God. But he can't because he was an angel, a created being, he can't be a creator, can't be God. Saying Jesus is an archANGEL is a heresy and blasphemy because you put God in the position of an angel.


If Michael was Jesus, he should've known that his name is powerful. That's why when Jesus rebuked He just said get the heck outta here satan and He also rebuked with the Scriptures.

Anyhow, I'm gonna unfollow this thread, because there will be no end. I'm not replying you to make you change your belief, I'm replying you to just to give you the reasons why it is not true. The seed has been planted.

Jesus came as a human but before He came into this world He was very keen to help His people and was with them through the journey until He came to this world. He was never far away from them. He is the one Abraham spoke to and is the one who wrestled with Jacob. He was the presence while the Israelites were in the wilderness and He was the one who spoke to Moses in the burning bush. He is the warrior Joshua bowed to and worshipped and He accepted because He is God.

What created being do you know that can raise the dead, accept worship and forgive sin? Isn't it blasphemous to suggest that an angel can do all those things as I've mentioned the Archangel does?

The Archangel is not a created being and the Bible never says so. He is Jesus Christ Himself and its another title of His.

If Michael was Jesus, he should've known that his name is powerful. That's why when Jesus rebuked He just said get the heck outta here satan and He also rebuked with the Scriptures.
I'm sorry I don't understand the point you're making here. In Zechariah 3:1-2 "the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" So what do you mean if Michael was Jesus, He should've known His name is powerful. He knows that why He rebukes Satan in His name. He did not tell Satan to "get the heck outta here" did He? Yes Jesus rebukes Satan with the scriptures, we know this especially when He was fasting and Satan came to tempt Him to worship Him. But in Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:1-2, Jesus rebukes Satan in the Lord's name.

Anyhow, I'm gonna unfollow this thread, because there will be no end. I'm not replying you to make you change your belief, I'm replying you to just to give you the reasons why it is not true. The seed has been planted.
I think that's best. Thanks for giving me your reasons why you don't agree with the subject matter but you've not planted any seeds. I know this is the truth of the Bible. I know what God's capabilities are and what the capabilities of the angels are too according to His Word. Anyway I pray God will reveal the truth about this subject to you. God bless.
 
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phipps

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The Truth About Angels

The King of Syria was waging war against the nation of Israel. He tried often to attack by surprise, but his army was continually foiled. Somehow, his top-secret war plans were being divulged to the king of Israel. So one day the Syrian king confronted his generals, saying, “Which of us is for the king of Israel?” (2 Kings 6:11).

They replied, “None, my lord, O king; but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the words that you speak in your bedroom” (v. 12).

Now enlightened, the king of Syria decided to kidnap the Lord’s agent. One night he sent a large army to encircle the little town of Dothan, where Elisha was staying. Early in the morning, Elisha’s assistant arose and discovered they were completely surrounded. When he saw the glitter of armor on thousands of soldiers and heard the snort of stomping horses, he rushed to Elisha and cried out, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” (v. 15).

Elisha walked to the window, perhaps rubbing his eyes from the sleep, and calmly responded, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them” (v. 16). His young assistant must have been bewildered because of the huge army threatening them, but Elisha prayed, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” God immediately answered His messenger’s prayer. “Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha” (v. 17).

Who were these soldiers in chariots of fire? These supernatural beings that surrounded the town were angels sent from God. King David gives us this clue: “I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people who have set themselves against me all around” (Psalm 3:6). Why could David be so confident? Because, “The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them” (Psalm 34:7).

I also pray that God will open our eyes as we consider what the Bible says about these very real but largely unseen beings.

Angels Everywhere
It is probably safe to say that many of us have actually seen these messengers from God but didn’t realize it. The Bible says, “Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels” (Hebrews 13:2). Like many others, I believe I have been providentially protected by angels.

But that’s not why I am convinced of their existence. I believe in angels because the Bible plainly teaches that they exist. From Genesis to Revelation we read all about them. At least 250 Bible passages speak of angels. The last book of the Bible alone has 80 references. Surely, with so many Scriptures about them, it is a subject worthy of our careful attention.

Both the Hebrew word mal’ak and the Greek word angelos, from which we get the word “angel,” simply mean “messenger.” Indeed, the word is sometimes used to describe a human who is dispatched as an emissary. People often mistook angels for ordinary people, but these heavenly messengers are greater than mortal beings. And they are not all alike. One class of angels is called cherubim, such as those who guarded the gates of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled. These winged angels are also called “watchers.” Another class is called seraphim, which means “burning ones.” These celestial beings are often seen before God’s throne or by prophets while in vision.

Angels are created beings. Some have suggested that the “sons of God” uniting with the “daughters of men” reference in Genesis 6:2 is referring to angels. But we know angels cannot procreate. They are not human. David portrays them as brilliant beings created by God, “Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire” (Psalm 104:4). Humans, by contrast, “have been made a little lower than the angels” (Psalm 8:5).

While created beings, angels are much more powerful than earthlings. Peter describes them as being “greater in power and might” (2 Peter 2:11). Did you know that a single angel destroyed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night? (See 2 Kings 19:35.) When David sinned in numbering Israel, an angel went through the land as a plague and killed 70,000 men. The Bible explains, “Then David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, having in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem” (1 Chronicles 21:16). This was the work of just one angel.

Good and Evil Angels
Not all angels do the bidding of God. There are good angels and bad angels. At one time all angels served the Lord, but the highest angel of heaven, named Lucifer, turned against God. He became Satan, the enemy, and persuaded a third of the other angels to join in his rebellion. The Bible says, “War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought” (Revelation 12:7). The dragon symbolizes the devil, and Michael symbolizes Christ, the One who is over all the angels.

Seeing this battle helps us understand the root of sin in our world. It all began with a single fallen angel. “His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth” (v. 4).

We are warned, “Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil [and his evil angels] have come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time” (v. 12). The pain and suffering and sin in our world began with the fallen angels. When Adam and Eve listened to Satan instead of God, the devil was empowered to set up his headquarters on our planet and was given temporary dominion over the earth to carry out his rebellion against God. Paul describes their evil work against us: “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12). We are at war with fallen angels who daily attempt to thwart God’s will and get us to sin.

Someday these evil angels, who are very real, will be destroyed. Jesus spoke of their end in the parable of the sheep and goats. “Then He [God] will say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). They also know their doom is coming. Fallen angels, or demons, would ask Jesus if He had “come to torment [them] before the time” (Matthew 8:29). Good and bad angels are very real and not just a figment of our imagination. They are like invisible radio waves. Though we cannot see them, they are still all around us.

It’s been asked that if God is all-powerful, why doesn’t He just wipe out all the evil angels with the snap of His divine fingers? It is because His character is at stake. The devil has leveled dreadful charges against God. If the Lord simply incinerates all who call Him unfair, it would lead all of His creatures to follow Him out of fear instead of serving Him out of love. Trust is the foundation of true love. The Bible says, “God is love” (1 John 4:8) and “there is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear” (v. 18). Love must remain the supreme motive for serving God. So God allows Lucifer and his angels to fully demonstrate their character to the universe before they are punished and annihilated.

Ironically, those who are in the greatest danger of being influenced by evil angels are those who do not believe they exist. People who laugh at the idea of the devil and his angels as make-believe ghoulish imps with batwings and horns are more susceptible to his deceptive work. Even the paintings of good angels that look like tiny, unclothed cupids floating on clouds are medieval fiction. Angels don’t have little baby angels. They are large, powerful, and majestic creatures.

It’s good for us to believe in the wondrous work of heaven’s beautiful angels. But it’s equally important for us to be aware of the evil angels. Jesus told us to pray, “Do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” for good reason (Matthew 6:13).

Angelic Abilities
What are some other capabilities of angels? For one, they are physically brilliant. When Jesus rose from the dead, the angel who came from heaven had a countenance “like lightning” and “clothing as white as snow” (Matthew 28:3).

Angels are also fast. “The living creatures ran back and forth, in appearance like a flash of lightning” (Ezekiel 1:14). It reminds me of one of the quickest insects on earth—the dragonfly—which has been clocked at more than 30 miles per hour; it would be like you running at 90 miles an hour!

However, angels are much quicker than dragonflies. Heaven’s messengers evidently move faster than the speed of light. Note Daniel’s experience with an angel: “While I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering” (Daniel 9:21). Picture what happened: Daniel prayed to God and while he was still praying God sent an angel from heaven, thousands of light-years away, to Daniel’s side. Now that’s fast!

Sometimes Scripture refers to angels with wings. When Isaiah saw the Lord in heaven on His throne, he also saw angels. “Above it [the throne] stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew” (Isaiah 6:2). The cherubim that were fashioned to be on top of the ark of the covenant in the temple had wings: “The cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings” (Exodus 25:20).

Angels also have bodies, although they are not mortal like our own; they live in a dimension we find hard to comprehend. Interestingly, the apostle Paul says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50). At the resurrection we will be given new bodies that, like the angels, will never die.

We can begin to grasp, in a small way, the realities of things unseen by studying the electromagnetic spectrum. The visible spectrum are light rays we can see with the naked eye—all the colors of the rainbow. We call these wavelengths “light.” Yet there is a large range of frequencies we cannot see. Scientists long ago discovered the existence of gamma rays, infrared, microwaves, radio waves, and more. We now know there are thousands of frequencies bombarding us from all around. So, likewise, it shouldn’t be too difficult to believe there is a spirit realm that we don’t fully understand.

How many angels are there? The Bible doesn’t give us an exact number, but we know there are a lot. For instance, when Jesus was arrested in Gethsemane, He said to His fearful disciples, “Do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?” (Matthew 26:53). That would be nearly 80,000 angels!

Here’s what the apostle John saw in vision: “Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands” (Revelation 5:11). This terminology in Greek indicates a number that cannot be counted. Here is the same idea: “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels” (Hebrews 12:22). Keep in mind that these are references to the good angels. There are plenty of bad ones out there as well.

Not to Be Worshiped
Angels are bright, powerful, intelligent, fast, and awesome. They are individuals with their own unique personalities. But for all the fascinating qualities of these heavenly beings, the Bible says we are never to worship them. They are part of the divine order, but they are not divine. As mentioned, angels are created beings. While God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are eternal, angels have a beginning point. Good angels will live on throughout eternity, but evil angels have finite lives with a certain ending.

The Bible cautions, “Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels” (Colossians 2:18). When an angel appeared to John, he bowed down to worship. Note the angel’s response: “See that you do not do that. … Worship God” (Revelation 22:9).

The Ten Commandments plainly tell us, “You shall have no other gods before Me” (Exodus 20:3). That would include angels. Even praying over images of angels is prohibited. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them” (vv. 4, 5).

We know that one angel has demanded worship. When Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness, he promised Jesus the whole world if the Savior would only worship him. Of course, Jesus refused to comply with the devil’s invitation. He responded, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve’ ” (Matthew 4:10).

Heavenly angels see themselves as our partners in the plan of salvation. The angel who visited John also said, “I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and those who keep the words of this book. Worship God” (Revelation 22:9, emphasis added).

Glorifying God
One of the paramount joys of angels is to glorify God. We see this in Isaiah 6 and Revelation 7. When the angels came to announce the birth of Christ to the shepherds, what were their words? “Glory to God in the highest!” (Luke 2:14). Angels find no greater pleasure, and we were created for the same purpose. “Therefore,” writes Paul, “whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). We ought to find our supreme happiness in glorifying the God who saves, just like the angels.

Angels are ministering spirits who also live to obey God’s will. They constantly surround the Lord. You can see this symbolized in the earthly temple. It was a miniature model of the heavenly sanctuary. When God instructed Moses to build a sanctuary in the wilderness, angels adorned the temple. Angels were placed over the ark. Angels were embroidered into the curtains and engraved in the golden walls of the holy place. They were everywhere. In reality, angels surround God’s throne in heaven waiting to do His bidding.

The angels are especially interested in the plan of salvation for our lost world. Peter speaks of our salvation as “things which angels desire to look into” (1Peter 1:12). This host of heaven is God’s army ready to do battle for our redemption. They participate in saving us from destruction. “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14). What an encouragement to know that these divine agents are sent to serve us!

Guardians
A brief reference made by Jesus about angels shows how each one of us has at least one of these guardians of heaven watching over us. Christ said, “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10). Even the weakest Christian has the assurance that “their angel” has access to God.

David affirms the defense of angels when he writes, “Bless the Lord, you His angels, who excel in strength, who do His word, heeding the voice of His word. Bless the Lord, all you His hosts, you ministers of His, who do His pleasure” (Psalm 103:20, 21).

Most comforting are David’s words of the protective care angels provide God’s children. “Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge, even the Most High, your dwelling place, no evil shall befall you, nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; for He shall give His angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways. In their hands they shall bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone. You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra, the young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot” (Psalm 91:9–13).

There are so many inspiring references to angels in the Bible. We could go on for hours about the stories of these heavenly beings in the Bible who visited Hagar, Lot, and Jacob, who fed Elijah, who saved Daniel in the lion’s den, who spoke with Zechariah, who announced good news to Mary, who freed Peter from prison, who guided Philip to an Ethiopian, who encouraged Paul in a sinking ship, and who even comforted Jesus after 40 days of fasting in the wilderness and in Gethsemane. Angels are all through the Bible.

Pastor John G. Paton, a pioneer missionary in the New Hebrides Islands, told a thrilling story involving the protective care of angels. A hostile, man-eating tribe surrounded his mission headquarters one night, intent on burning the Paton family out and killing them. John Paton and his wife prayed all during that terror-filled night that God would deliver them. When daylight came they were amazed to see that, unaccountably, the attackers had left. They thanked God for delivering them.

A year later, the chief of the tribe was converted, and Mr. Paton, remembering what had happened, asked the chief what had kept him and his men from burning down the house. The chief replied in surprise, “Who were all those men you had with you there?”

The missionary answered, “There were no men there; just my wife and I.” The chief argued that he had seen many men standing guard—hundreds in shining garments with drawn swords in their hands. They seemed to circle the mission station so that the tribe was afraid to attack. Only then did Mr. Paton realize that God had sent His angels to protect them.

We are not alone in this world. Heavenly beings observe everything we do. Not only do they protect us, but they cooperate with God in guiding us into truth when we stray. Someday we will meet them face to face. I’m looking forward to meeting my guardian angel; aren’t you? While we should never worship them, we certainly should thank God for angels who live to serve our fallen world.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-features/inside-report/magazine/id/13195/t/the-truth-about-angels
 

Renegade

Veteran
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
737
Jude names Jesus 5 times and makes no attempt to connect Michael as the same person...

1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
4 who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

9But even the archangel Michael,

21wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord,



Jude quotes the book of Enoch..
14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
15to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Enoch 1,9
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

In the Book of Enoch we find Michael in a group of seven archangels with the messiah as "Son of Man" clearly distinct from Michael...

IX. I. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven… 4. And they said to the Lord of Ages: Lord of Lords, God of gods, King of Kings (and God of Ages)…5. Thou hast made all things…

X. II. And the Lord said unto Michael

XX. I. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels who is over the world and over Tartarus 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men, 4. Ragual, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. 6. Saraqael, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

XXIV 6. Then answered Michael, one of the holy [and honored] angels who was with me, and was their leader, XXV. I., 3. And he (Michael) said unto me … This high mountain which thou hast seen, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King will sit, when He shall come down to visit the earth with goodness.

XL. 8. Who are these four presences which I have seen… 9. And he said to me: This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third … is Gabriel, …and the fourth, is Phanuel 10. And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

LIV. 6. And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.

LXVIII. 4. And it came to pass when he stood before the Lord of Spirits, Michael said to Raphael: “I will not take their part under the eye of the Lord; for the Lord of Spirits has been angry with them…

LXXI. 3. And the angel Michael [one of the archangels] seized me by my right hand … 8. …And Michael, and Raphael, and Gabriel, and Phenuel, and the holy angels who are above the heavens, go in and out of that house.
 
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
2,040
Jude names Jesus 5 times and makes no attempt to connect Michael as the same person...

1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
4 who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

9But even the archangel Michael,

21wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord,



Jude quotes the book of Enoch..
14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
15to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Enoch 1,9
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

In the Book of Enoch we find Michael in a group of seven archangels with the messiah as "Son of Man" clearly distinct from Michael...

IX. I. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven… 4. And they said to the Lord of Ages: Lord of Lords, God of gods, King of Kings (and God of Ages)…5. Thou hast made all things…

X. II. And the Lord said unto Michael

XX. I. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels who is over the world and over Tartarus 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men, 4. Ragual, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. 6. Saraqael, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

XXIV 6. Then answered Michael, one of the holy [and honored] angels who was with me, and was their leader, XXV. I., 3. And he (Michael) said unto me … This high mountain which thou hast seen, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King will sit, when He shall come down to visit the earth with goodness.

XL. 8. Who are these four presences which I have seen… 9. And he said to me: This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third … is Gabriel, …and the fourth, is Phanuel 10. And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

LIV. 6. And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.

LXVIII. 4. And it came to pass when he stood before the Lord of Spirits, Michael said to Raphael: “I will not take their part under the eye of the Lord; for the Lord of Spirits has been angry with them…

LXXI. 3. And the angel Michael [one of the archangels] seized me by my right hand … 8. …And Michael, and Raphael, and Gabriel, and Phenuel, and the holy angels who are above the heavens, go in and out of that house.
Wow, I was going to do this too (quote from the book of Enoch) because it is the book that Archangel Michael gave to Noah:

Enoch

The Book of Enoch (Idris) the Prophet; Noah and Archangel Prince Michael.

1:1 The word of the blessing of Enoch, how he blessed the Elect and the righteous, who were to exist in the "Time of Trouble"; to the rejection of all the wicked and unGodly (Ps. 1), Enoch, a righteous man, was with God, answered and spoke, while his eyes were open, and while he saw a holy vision which was in the heavens (Gen. 5:24). This the angel showed me (Noah).
1:2 From them I heard all things, and understood what I saw, that which will not take place in this generation, but in a generation which is to succeed at a distant period (Dan. 12:1-4), on account of the Elect (Matt. 24:22).
1:3 Upon their account I spoke and conversed with Him, Who will go forth from this habitation, the Holy and Mighty One, the God of the world.
1:4 Who will hereafter tread upon Mt. Sinai (Ex. 19:11, 18, 20; 24:16); appear with His hosts; and be manifested in the strength of His power from heaven.
1:5 All shall be afraid, and the Watchers be terrified.
1:6 Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the ends of the Earth. The holy "mountains" shall be troubled, and the exalted "hills" depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the flame. The Earth shall be immersed, and all things which are in it perish; while Judgement shall come upon all, even upon the righteous (Rev. 20:11-15;ch. 89:41).
1:7 But to them shall He give peace: He shall preserve the Elect, and towards them exercise clemency (ch. 6:11-12; Rev. 14:1-3; 21:27; Sura 69:18-24).
1:8 Then shall all belong to God; be happy and blessed; and the splendour of the Godhead shall illuminate them (Isa. 40:5; 65:21-25).
2:1 Behold He comes with ten thousands of His holy warriors, to execute Judgement upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all of flesh for every thing which the sinful and unGodly have done, and committed against Him (Jude 14-15).
3:1 All who are in the heavens know the work.
King of kings' bible

The connection between Michael and Jesus, is that Michael is Christ pre-incarnate (the Angel of The Lord and the leader of the Armies of God). Ask yourself this... who else could be the Leader of God's armies, but Jesus?

"Before Abraham was born I am.." - John 8:58

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

The link is there
 

Vixy

Star
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
3,907
All I know about Michael is that this guy has SOME authority, WOW!

When he was late arriving to get that guy out of the prison, the book of enoch (I think) tells of how he was fighting satan and his demons bc they were trying to get into heaven as they often do.

What a guy huh! <3
 
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