When Religion And Conspiracy Theories Collide.

[Infinityloop]

And Red, if you want to get into a dick-swinging contest of "X ripped off Z", just remember that chronologically the Canaanites predate the entire surviving Abrahamic tradition. There are theories out there in scholarship that trace the Israelites/Judaism through the Canaanites (firstly) and the Babylonians, then later the Zoroastrians, and Christianity through the Greeks.
If you want to do your dick-swinging contest over that then none of the Abrahamic tradition has any chance. Atheists always argue from chronology. A lot of the Old Testament contains polemical poems based off Babylonian poems, as a means of adding insult to injury.
If you really want to go down that route, then we all have a lot to answer for.

But ironically guess who predates all of us? yep, the Vedic Indians.

 

[seekinheart]

Before I address anything with the Book of Enoch I have a question. Do you read a 73 book canon or a 66 book canon? (just wondering)



You're strawmanning me. I never said that Jews didn't anticipate a Messiah (annointed one/Mosciach) when they clearly did. I said that it wasn't in the Tanakh (Old Testament).
Messianic prophecies are all in the Talmud, that is what I've said a hundred times now.




Like above, you're stawmanning me again.
However on that one, the whole concept of Messianism itself seems to have come out of Zoroastrianism. If you look at the Bible chronologically, Jewish theology completely did a 180° turn both during and after the exile in Babylon. This was a massive turning point for Israelite/Jewish religion. Certainly, it's more than blatant that Cyrus The Great (one of the Bible's Messiahs) was a massive influence on Jewish and Abrahamic thought, he was a Zoroastrian too obviously as well, so the connection is not hidden.



Can you say what ever you're trying to say in clear english please? thanks.



What you're doing here is placing your later post-2nd century Christian theology and the assumptions that come from this, imposing it onto the Old Testament (Tanakh).
Fundamentally, the worldview of the Tanakh doesn't resemble the New Testament's in any way, shape or form. Even the symbols you use (sheep, goats, sons of man, seeds etc) all have completely different meanings to your Christian reinterpretation in mainstream Catholic/Protestant theology/exegesis. Likewise, you Christians are usually not even able to accurately represent the worldview of the Tanakh, you have to misrepresent their worldview in order to have a worldview as a Christian (as you claim yourself to be the "answer" to them, presuming that they had a question in the first place, lol).

Yet ironically, despite that you poorly misrepresent the worldview and theology of the Old Testament (Tanakh), Jesus himself confirms that you have to follow the very same law you're condemning in your post, ROTFL!

But anyway, the Christian concept of how sin is forgiven is entirely foreign to the Old Testament (Tanakh). God certainly appears very happy to accept animal offerings in the Pentateuch but killing animals is matter of fact not where salvation is in the Old Testament. And if it was, Jews would be scared for their lives over ceasing to do temple ritual over the past 2000 years. If it was required for salvation, Jews would not have stopped this practice, period. But they did.
Animal offerings were a very very very popular practice throughout all ancient civilizations, it was not exclusive to the Old Testament.

And also on God only being able to forgive sins, wouldn't this very idea (if you were correct concerning your beliefs about Jesus) make you conclude that Jesus was a false prophet and false messiah, on the basis of that alone? surely?

Actually though on salvation itself, the Christian sacrifice-for-sin narrative doesn't hold any ground.
Jesus quite strongly upholds in matt/mark/luke/john the notion of two things:
1. Following the Law (which includes the strict adherence to the Shema, as seen explicitly mentioned by name in Mark 12:28-34)
2. Baptism (the actual meaning of being "born again")

The Theology of Jesus through Matt/Mark/Luke alone differs to an extreme degree in comparison to the Paulian epistles and the Johannine texts.

There are numerous examples of Jesus overruling the rules of the Torah, and emphasising the law on your heart, he fulfilled the law which is a precursor to the law on your heart, hence why he said he is the fulfilment of the law.

(Who could do this but God)

Matt 15:11

He touched a leper, which they were forbidden to do.

He even broke the sabbath.

This concept of a fulfilment of law, seems entirely lost on you, that's a spiritual problem, you're a legalist.

Wether you think he was a false prophet is upto you. But lets not think Jesus didnt at least believe he was God, he clearly did.

 

[Infinityloop]

There are numerous examples of Jesus overruling the rules of the Torah, and emphasising the law on your heart, he fulfilled the law which is a precursor to the law on your heart, hence why he said he is the fulfilment of the law.

But you're twisting his words, he explicitly says that he HASN'T come to abolish the law. This directly means that what he is saying is to do with something other than abolishing it.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:17-20)

Jesus hammers this point again in several other places very strongly.

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ (Deuteronomy 6:5); and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Leviticus 19:18)”
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
(Luke 10:25-28)

Haven't you noticed that Jesus never actually adds anything different himself (unlike Paul and the Johannines).

And also, if Jesus was both God-incarnate and an encourager of breaking the Law (Torah), then clearly he would would conflict strongly with Deuteronomy 13, making him a false prophet by definition.

If the above two quotes weren't enough, this passage from Luke ins unexplainable likewise, if you mistakenly believe he abolished the Law:

“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
(Luke 16:16-17)

This concept of a fulfilment of law, seems entirely lost on you, that's a spiritual problem, you're a legalist.

No it isn't, I know very well what it means. It means that he is a living embodiment of the correct way of following the Law, as contrasted to the Pharisees who didn't understand it's meaning. Following the Law was absolutely not their error, it was their lack of actual understanding of the heart of the Law and their hypocritical attitudes.

But lets not think Jesus didnt at least believe he was God, he clearly did.

That's called begging the question.

 

[seekinheart]

I cant help you with that, he literally didnt rigorously stick to the law

FULFILMENT

the achievement of something desired, promised, or predicted.
"winning the championship was the fulfilment of a childhood dream"

satisfaction or happiness as a result of fully developing one's potential.
"she did not believe that marriage was the key to happiness and fulfilment"

the meeting of a requirement, condition, or need.
"the fulfilment of statutory requirements"

The statutory REQUIREMENTS, are fulfilled, they cease as the requirements are now the law on your heart.

lol it literally is the definition, thats no the abolishment of anything, the law is still present but rather than a rigorous set of rules it is now elevated to being written on your heart, which is much more than not eating shellfish, that is an act of obedience.

One has to concede that, the concept of a "fulfilment of law" is a foreign concept. Like the trinity its something you cannot wrap your head around. I mean Jesus literally broke the "law" himself in favour of what he was preaching. And yet somehow that counts for nothing.

I cant help you, you are completely deluded. Im done.

 

[Infinityloop]

I cant help you with that, he literally didnt rigorously stick to the law

FULFILMENT

the achievement of something desired, promised, or predicted.
"winning the championship was the fulfilment of a childhood dream"

satisfaction or happiness as a result of fully developing one's potential.
"she did not believe that marriage was the key to happiness and fulfilment"

the meeting of a requirement, condition, or need.
"the fulfilment of statutory requirements"

The statutory REQUIREMENTS, are fulfilled, they cease as the requirements are now the law on your heart.

lol it literally is the definition, thats no the abolishment of anything, the law is still present but rather than a rigorous set of rules it is now elevated to being written on your heart, which is much more than not eating shellfish, that is an act of obedience.

Why not actually look up what the word (pleroo) itself actually means in a dictionary? https://biblehub.com/greek/4137.htm
I didn't make that site.

Just think about this. If Jesus has come to abolish the Law, why would he explicitly set up a dichotomy between abolishing and fulfilling? clearly he means that abolishing the Law is the antithesis of what he's doing. It's fairly obvious @seekinheart

Like the trinity its something you cannot wrap your head around. I mean Jesus literally broke the "law" himself in favour of what he was preaching. And yet somehow that counts for nothing.

I cant help you, you are completely deluded. Im done.

Not only an Ad Hominem, but also an appeal to ignorance and a reductio ad absurdum in just a few sentences!

God bless you @seekinheart but you're being disingenuous here.

 

[Tidal]

The Old Testament (Tanakh) is a non-stop bloodbath, yet you seriously have the nerve to point the finger?

The OT is ancient history mate, and if God wanted us to stick with it, he wouldn't have sent Jesus to give us the New T would he?..
People quickly cottoned on-
"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6)
"The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
"Through Jesus we are saved, and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 )
"We serve in the new way of the spirit, not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6)

 

[seekinheart]

The OT is ancient history mate, and if God wanted us to stick with it, he wouldn't have sent Jesus to give us the New T would he?..
People quickly cottoned on-
"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6)
"The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
"Through Jesus we are saved, and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 )
"We serve in the new way of the spirit, not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6)

The irony of muslims is that, somehow Allah managed to allow his message to be corrupted by Christians and Jews, and was pretty much silent for x amount of hundreds of years, and yet the message of Islam which is pretty much contraindicated to all other abrahamic faith, is the restoration, but Christianity which actually has thematic jewish elements is completely fabricated.

Because LOGIC.

 

[Tidal]

The irony of muslims is that, somehow Allah managed to allow his message to be corrupted by Christians and Jews

Can you just clear something up for us?- Is the Christian God Allah?

 

[Infinityloop]

The irony of muslims is that, somehow Allah managed to allow his message to be corrupted........

Actually, way before even Cain and Abel, right back in Genesis 3 in the Old Testament this happened.
In terms of the Bible, the concern would logically be:
Why would God let the serpent in, when it would corrupt not only the basic message and relationship with God but also cause the need for more prophets after Adam?

These problems go far far beyond merely reading a bunch of books.

This is not an irony for Islam, it's an irony for the entire Abrahamic tradition starting back with the first man. Then Cain/Abel, then everyone else. God had to keep sending prophets, God had to send a ***ing flood. Have you even read the Bible @seekinheart ?

What book did Noah read? what book did Abraham read? etc.

It's that you don't even understand your own position by claiming to believe in Christianity. That is the problem buddy.

 

[Infinityloop]

Can you just clear something up for us?- Is the Christian God Allah?

"Allah" is not a name, it etymologically means "God". The New Testament doesn't say "God" anywhere, English wasn't around back then. The New Testament was written in Greek and uses the word "Theos" (Greek word for God), when it doesn't use the phrase "the Father" (which is of course a symbolic title).
The Old Testament also doesn't use the word "God" anywhere, the Hebrew word is "EL", the infamous linguistically related term popping up frequently being "Elohim".

In translations of the Old Testament, EL is translated to "God".
In translations of the New Testament, Theos is translated to "God".
In translations of the Qur'an, Allah is translated to "God.

(this is aside from further but irrelevant complications such as the title "YHWH" and when various words are transliterated)

The real question is actually: Do you even believe that there is such a thing as 'God' in the first place?

Remember Jesus' infamous words on the cross (Mark 15:34):
"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (my god, my god why have you forsaken me).

Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages and use a lot of the same words and sentence structures. El, Eli, Elohim and all the other variations are all related to Allah very naturally. They're brother/sister languages.
Greek however is the ugly duckling, Greek was a Gentile/Pagan language. Of course some of the earlier Old Testaments with apocrypha were in Greek but they were translated manuscripts, etc. It's all very curious.



But the only reason you have the strange mindset you do, is because you're an English speaking Christian Westerner.
It is also curious that you've scrubbed yourself almost entirely of the languages and names of the original texts (unlike Orthodox Jews and Orthodox Christians both over in the middle east), this however never happened to Islam, Islam retained a practical connection (even for Muslims not fluent in the language) with the Arabic that the Qur'an was revealed in by God.

 

[illuminatimess]

@Tidal Sorry, I really don't want to be rude or hurt you, but are you - somehow - mentally impaired? You always ask the same question. Over and over again. How many times do you need an answer? "Allah" is Arabic for the English word "God". Is it that hard to understand?

@Infinityloop I love how you destroy their arguments with their own scripture lol. Great job!

 

[seekinheart]

@Tidal Sorry, I really don't want to be rude or hurt you, but are you - somehow - mentally impaired? You always ask the same question. Over and over again. How many times do you need an answer? "Allah" is Arabic for the English word "God". Is it that hard to understand?

@Infinityloop I love how you destroy their arguments with their own scripture lol. Great job!

Not really it just shows a lack of understanding of christian theology.

 

[illuminatimess]

Not really it just shows a lack of understanding of christian theology.

What exactly?

 

[Tidal]

Tidal, sorry, I really don't want to be rude or hurt you, but are you - somehow - mentally impaired?

Tidal, the only reason you have the strange mindset you do, is because you're an English speaking Christian Westerner.

Funny you should say that guys, my late dad thought I was strange too.
As a kid I overheard him saying to my mam about me - "He's nutty! No don't laugh, I really do mean it, he wastes all his pocket money on silly plastic model aeroplanes then hangs 'em on string from his bedroom ceiling in full view of the street, I dread to think what the neighbours are saying about him. When's he going to start saving his money instead?"
I got my own back though, I filled his radio with sand from a builders yard down the road and chuckled when he tried to tune in the Clay-Liston fight but all he got were electrical crackles and splutters. He he he..
Then the sand began pouring out in torrents like an Indiana Jones temple and he freaked, "I don't believe it!" he yelled, "its full of bleddy sand, how the hell did that get in there?" .
Anyway he was far nuttier than me, everybody knew he was round the bend
He's been dead now 40 years but I wonder what he'd say if he knew I still buy models, I've currently got my eye on this neat baby down the model shop.. -

 

[Awoken2]

There you go guys, the bible and Coronavirus....together

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There you go guys, the bible and Coronavirus....together

Nicholson1968 has been tracking on the ideas presented in the video for years. It seemed far fetched in 2015 but perhaps a little less no now...

Nicholson1968

You may see somethings you have never seen anywhere else on the internet here.Somethings may blow your mind and shock your world you live in,but thats what n...

www.youtube.com

 

[Awoken2]

Anyway he was far nuttier than me, everybody knew he was round the bend

Well to be honest with you, just looking at your posts, you appear to be as nutty as a freshly laid squirrel poo so your Dad must have been deranged.

No offense like but your childhood must have been pretty tough....hence the trecky thing....it's like a coping mechanism isn't it? Being captain Kirk....so you don't have to....remember stuff.

Things heal.....in time.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

P.s. It doesn’t take a seasoned Freemasonic symbology expert to notice that if you take the WestWorld logo and mirror it in the horizontal plane (as above, so below) you get IXXI (911)

IXXI re-examined

I was struck this morning by how many places the IXXI symbolism pops up!

www.vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[Awoken2]

Well I'm glad this is all just one big conspiracy theory, that's all I can say.

 

[elsbet]

...well well well, in the above video it twice states that the Masonic bible is a KJV.

Fancy that.

Keep investigating that specific book-- it is also loaded with the religion of the Egyptians, with their gods featured (iirc) in a different section. I'll try to find a link. Have you ever been inside one of their 'temples?'