The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

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A good assertion to cross examine! I am comfortably in disagreement with you here ;-)

The dual impossibilities of abiogenesis and the overcoming of irreducibly complex structures by small random mutations and natural selection are substantial items in “tray one”.

Abiogenesis theory got disproven by Pasteur ages ago unless you are talking specifically about the dead earth coming to life and giving rise to life. Which you shouldn't because even the Genesis talks about earth being originally dead with no life until God sent water to it.
 





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Abiogenesis theory got disproven by Pasteur ages ago unless you are talking specifically about the dead earth coming to life and giving rise to life. Which you shouldn't because even the Genesis talks about earth being originally dead with no life until God sent water to it.
Abiogenesis without the hand of a creator is an unbridgeable gap, however old the earth is ;-)
 





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Well, how can I express this clearly? I think you are of the view that Allah guided Evolution?

What seems odd to me is that the start of the evolutionary journey is hamstrung at the impossibility of abiogenesis, and fundamentally prevented from succeeding in producing the myriad of design we see today by the impossibly large jumps required by irreducible complexity.

Put another way, observational science tells us that the action of moles can create molehills...

ADB45335-3485-4798-92D9-D043C4D8B538.jpeg

As an analogy, evolution looking chance mutation, isolation and selective pressures to create the huge leaps necessary is like citing mole action to build Silbury Hill:-

2A736A74-19BB-42D1-95A1-0C0C8F8CA9B7.jpeg

A planet of created life, with the capacity for variation and selection seems to be the one I look out at in the fossilised record and the present natural world. This seems to support a creation model more than an evolved one to me.
 





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There is meaning here that you're missing. This is the problem with assuming it's meant to be taken so literally. Hint: Where does it say "replaced"? You added that bit all on your own.
No... it doesn't say "replaced." That the Light preceded the sun is fascinating imo.

I didn't agree with it being an issue of literal interpretation, initially, though, so much as an attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion with the given information-- but I do see where you're coming from @Faker He-Man --

A look at the interlinear gives a better view.

Job 38:19 uses the same word found in Genesis 1:3... so does Isaiah 2:5.

216
Original Word: אוֹר
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: or
Phonetic Spelling: (ore)
Definition: a light
JOB 38:19
Where is the way to the home of light?​
Do you know where darkness resides... ?​

The Light, it seems, exists independently of the sun. Again, we see in Isaiah...

ISAIAH 2:5
O house of Jacob, come, And we walk in the light of Jehovah.​
We may be deviating from the science-y aspect of the text with this, and wandering into the supernatural... maybe not. Idk that I could answer the query in Job. : )
 





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No... it doesn't say "replaced." That the Light preceded the sun is fascinating imo.

I didn't agree with it being an issue of literal interpretation, initially, though, so much as an attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion with the given information-- but I do see where you're coming from @Faker He-Man --

A look at the interlinear gives a better view.

Job 38:19 uses the same word found in Genesis 1:3... so does Isaiah 2:5.

216


Original Word: אוֹר

Part of Speech: Noun Feminine

Transliteration: or

Phonetic Spelling: (ore)

Definition: a light


JOB 38:19

Where is the way to the home of light?​

Do you know where darkness resides... ?​

The Light, it seems, exists independently of the sun. Again, we see in Isaiah...

ISAIAH 2:5

O house of Jacob, come, And we walk in the light of Jehovah.​

We may be deviating from the science-y aspect of the text with this, and wandering into the supernatural... maybe not. Idk that I could answer the query in Job. : )
I have always thought it was the creation of the electromagnetic spectrum. If I were God, that would seem to be the first step, followed directly by matter in an informed state. God is putting together the basic components of Einstein’s famous equation.
 





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Well, how can I express this clearly? I think you are of the view that Allah guided Evolution?

What seems odd to me is that the start of the evolutionary journey is hamstrung at the impossibility of abiogenesis, and fundamentally prevented from succeeding in producing the myriad of design we see today by the impossibly large jumps required by irreducible complexity.

Put another way, observational science tells us that the action of moles can create molehills...

View attachment 25583

As an analogy, evolution looking chance mutation, isolation and selective pressures to create the huge leaps necessary is like citing mole action to build Silbury Hill:-

View attachment 25584

A planet of created life, with the capacity for variation and selection seems to be the one I look out at in the fossilised record and the present natural world. This seems to support a creation model more than an evolved one to me.
I don't believe in macroevolution because of the lack of a concrete evidence but the one at micro level does make me second guess that.

I'm of the opinion that the beginning of the universe, its existence and its aging and its death and including everything thats in it, is due to God. Not that difficult to understand.
He made "time" for a reason and because of "time" everything has to be a process and it is. People are born, they live and they age and they die. The planets and the stars are born, they age and they die too.
 





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I don't believe in macroevolution because of the lack of a concrete evidence but the one at micro level does make me second guess that.

I'm of the opinion that the beginning of the universe, its existence and its aging and its death and including everything thats in it, is due to God. Not that difficult to understand.
He made "time" for a reason and because of "time" everything has to be a process and it is. People are born, they live and they age and they die. The planets and the stars are born, they age and they die too.
It’s good we can talk intelligently. I see areas of common understanding as I agree with micro evolution (variation and small scale speciation) whilst rejecting macro evolution (body plan changes, organs from nowhere etc).

I think that deep time is not required to “hone” life into what we see today, and studies on human mitochondrial DNA evidence again seems suggestive that time has not been as long as has been popularly claimed:-

 





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It’s good we can talk intelligently. I see areas of common understanding as I agree with micro evolution (variation and small scale speciation) whilst rejecting macro evolution (body plan changes, organs from nowhere etc).

I think that deep time is not required to “hone” life into what we see today, and studies on human mitochondrial DNA evidence again seems suggestive that time has not been as long as has been popularly claimed:-

How does this support the Biblical view of creation? If the end estimate that she is saying is "6000" years, again she is talking about THE woman most people have their genome from but she is wrong about the first part of research or "what was supposed to be found" because evolution is not humans coming from chimpanzees. That is a misconception. She is also wrong about it being a "clock", just because the name has it.
If an event like a worldwide Noah flood (we don't believe it to be worldwide btw) did occur, then the said woman could be someone after that event.
Even then she is talking about HUMAN cells, not animals, not plants and certainly not bacteria. All of which should precede humanity and when we study their cells, they clearly do.

In the Islamic version of said "creation" there is a massive time gap between the creation of the universe and the creation of humanity. They weren't instantaneous, happening one day after the other.

Let me ask you something offtopic. If humanity was created in the creation week along with the universe and then put into garden of Eden. Where and when did the supposed "war" between the angels and the fallen angels happen? Was it happening in the heaven while Adam and Eve were living in the garden? Did it happen in their lifetime? Because the Bible makes it very visible that it happened way before that and that is how the serpent thing happened.

edit: By the way looking it up a little more I have found that mitochondrial Eve is no longer the most common recent ancestor shared by the people.
 





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Where and when did the supposed "war" between the angels and the fallen angels happen? Was it happening in the heaven while Adam and Eve were living in the garden? Did it happen in their lifetime? Because the Bible makes it very visible that it happened way before that and that is how the serpent thing happened.
An interesting question on which the Bible is silent. Some people put the war in heaven between The first verses of Genesis but this is conjecture. How long might a war of spiritual beings in heaven take? Anything from billions of years to microseconds are reasonable suggestions!
 





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An interesting question on which the Bible is silent. Some people put the war in heaven between The first verses of Genesis but this is conjecture. How long might a war of spiritual beings in heaven take? Anything from billions of years to microseconds are reasonable suggestions!
Microseconds clearly aren't enough for someone to go bad from good, start a rebellion, fall to earth, be disowned, establish a kingdom on earth and then lead two random people in the middle of nowhere astray.
And it can't be between the first two verses of genesis because there can't be a species created and then go rebel and then whole war could happen between God creating light and water.

A question that again, our faith answers. How much do we have to keep speculating regarding to time in Bible? If you say microseconds, thats your speculation, its not biblical, if you say a million years, that is still your speculation but each of these speculation go against the very time period of six days Bible has established. And if you were to say that they were not actual 6 days but 6 periods of time, then it goes against your model of a 6000 years old earth
 





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OK (muslim apologetics 101 detected as always...hahaha), aren't we talking about the creation of the universe, the first 6-days according to the Book of Genesis, where God spoke everything (including natural laws) into existence...the process of birth and how trees grow are just effects of the natural laws the God put in existence during and after the 6-day creation...doesn't need big bang for that :)


Oh my, OK so you now believe that allah employed big bang, string theory and multiverse, all three theories in creation? LOL

But then again, if one really believe in God (omnipotent and omniscient), why one's God needs big bang/string/multiverse theory to create the universe when He can just speak it into existence like the God in the Bible? And again, to me, a diety who needs to employ such theories in creation is just a weak god.

Are you sure you are not an atheist? :)
That isn't the a-word I would use to explain manamana.
 





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Microseconds clearly aren't enough for someone to go bad from good, start a rebellion, fall to earth, be disowned, establish a kingdom on earth and then lead two random people in the middle of nowhere astray.
And it can't be between the first two verses of genesis because there can't be a species created and then go rebel and then whole war could happen between God creating light and water.

A question that again, our faith answers. How much do we have to keep speculating regarding to time in Bible? If you say microseconds, thats your speculation, its not biblical, if you say a million years, that is still your speculation but each of these speculation go against the very time period of six days Bible has established. And if you were to say that they were not actual 6 days but 6 periods of time, then it goes against your model of a 6000 years old earth
Sometimes when people start getting confused it is worthwhile to widen the lens.

If you consider supernaturalism and naturalism, I find it interesting that the Bible contains significant periods of regular naturalism, punctuated by supernatural “black swan” events.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-case-for-miracles.3437/

I don’t have an issue with this at all from a scientific perspective. Science has limits beyond which truth can sometimes exist. To limit truth to “empirical scientific truth” is to turn science from a means of exploration to a strait-jacket.

I have no issue observing that there are natural processes in play not biologically and geophysically that can lead to certain results, e.g. genetic drift, erosion etc. This does not prevent me from believing that catastrophic events can occur, be it a flood, or even the fall of Man from an original state of communion with God.

I think it is quite possible for God to shape the world or the universe using natural process, if he so wishes. It is equally possible to accomplish the same thing in six days!
 





Axl888

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It’s good we can talk intelligently. I see areas of common understanding as I agree with micro evolution (variation and small scale speciation) whilst rejecting macro evolution (body plan changes, organs from nowhere etc).

I think that deep time is not required to “hone” life into what we see today, and studies on human mitochondrial DNA evidence again seems suggestive that time has not been as long as has been popularly claimed:-

Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson did a study on the origin of human mitochondrial DNA, his data seem to support young earth creation model tracing it back to the 3 wives of Noah's sons.

Specifically, these results suggested that the overlap between my earlier predictions (Jeanson 2015b) and the average pairwise mtDNA difference in African groups was plausible.3 However, to explore whether these generation time data could explain the whole scope of mtDNA diversity, I realigned mtDNA sequences from even more individuals from a variety of ethnic groups to identify the maximum pairwise DNA difference. The resultant tree (Fig. 1; see also Supplemental Fig. 1 to zoom in on individuals within the tree) depicted results consistent with previous studies—the longest branch lengths belonged to African individuals.
However, the highest divergence (117 nucleotides) resulted from a comparison, not between two Africans, but between an African San individual and an Asian Taiwanese Aborigine (Table 3; see also Supplemental Table 3). From a biblical perspective, Africans and Asians probably split after the Flood, likely due to the events at the Tower of Babel. Going back to the time of the Flood, modern ethnic groups would have all traced their maternal ancestry back to the three wives of Noah’s sons (Jeanson 2015a). Consistent with this historical record, three major nodes were visible in human mtDNA trees (Fig. 1).4

https://answersingenesis.org/geneti...n-time-data-both-suggest-unified-young-earth/
 





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I don’t have an issue with this at all from a scientific perspective. Science has limits beyond which truth can sometimes exist. To limit truth to “empirical scientific truth” is to turn science from a means of exploration to a strait-jacket.
You've finally said something that I do agree with you on. I do agree with you, however it does not make it so that our empirical observations are wrong just because of this.

I think it is quite possible for God to shape the world or the universe using natural process, if he so wishes. It is equally possible to accomplish the same thing in six days!
It's that there are massive flaws in your theology if you believe there is some kind of separation point between "God creating stuff" and "natural law doing it's thing".
 





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Sometimes when people start getting confused it is worthwhile to widen the lens.

If you consider supernaturalism and naturalism, I find it interesting that the Bible contains significant periods of regular naturalism, punctuated by supernatural “black swan” events.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-case-for-miracles.3437/

I don’t have an issue with this at all from a scientific perspective. Science has limits beyond which truth can sometimes exist. To limit truth to “empirical scientific truth” is to turn science from a means of exploration to a strait-jacket.

I have no issue observing that there are natural processes in play not biologically and geophysically that can lead to certain results, e.g. genetic drift, erosion etc. This does not prevent me from believing that catastrophic events can occur, be it a flood, or even the fall of Man from an original state of communion with God.

I think it is quite possible for God to shape the world or the universe using natural process, if he so wishes. It is equally possible to accomplish the same thing in six days!
"The fall of man" of man was a process, floods are processes too. Why would God create laws if he doesn't plan on following them? Nothing is "supernatural". Everything is natural and everything has an explanation, just because we haven't reached the point of learning that, doesn't make it magic or something like that.
Widening the lens is not synonymous with shutting it down, the first thing one should widen their lenses about, is their own faith.

What about the time period between the creation of man and fall of angels? That is simple time stuff.
 





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It's that there are massive flaws in your theology if you believe there is some kind of separation point between "God creating stuff" and "natural law doing it's thing".
God created the natural orderly laws of the universe but is not bound by them.

I don’t see this as some hugely flawed perspective. I might predictably get up and go to work most weekdays if the year, then decide to take a Tuesday off and go surfing* ;-)

*I wish!
 





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What about the time period between the creation of man and fall of angels? That is simple time stuff.
I am sure you understand the concept of variables. Here the variable would be whether created spirit beings were included in the chronology of the creations of heaven and earth or separate (being non-physical immortal beings). As the Bible is silent on where they fit chronologically, over-analysis of this question would be akin to debating whether a recent newsworthy dress was gold and white or blue and black...

A3DFC72D-03B4-4485-8FB5-BFF67479C412.jpeg

https://www.nationalgeographic.com....ite-dress-why-we-see-colours-differently.aspx