The occult, or hidden, "messiah" of Freemasonry and similar societies

neptunejoo

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Without a temple, Jews can't make any sacrifices for their sins. That might be the source of their "obsession".
Is it right that Jewish dont believe in hell? So they know that they've been sinned all along and with temple, their sins are forgiven?
 






neptunejoo

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I wonder why is the obsession with transhumanism or uploading consciousness?

I mean, say if you upload your consciousness into a chip or machine, or you can be a half human half robot in the hope of living forever, and one day there will be a meteor destroy the earth - your consciousness will be gone right?
 






elsbet

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I wonder why is the obsession with transhumanism or uploading consciousness?

I mean, say if you upload your consciousness into a chip or machine, or you can be a half human half robot in the hope of living forever, and one day there will be a meteor destroy the earth - your consciousness will be gone right?
If the chip is destroyed, possibly. Who knows. But salvation is for men.. not robots, so you may want to think that through.
 






Karlysymon

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I thought I would start a new thread, even if I won't be present to participate much, spun from this one, for those who might like to either consider or discuss unorthodox "Revelation" and apocalyptics.


Speaking of the aristocracy, have you much inquired into the legends, and legends they for the most part are, of the Knights Templar? More specifically, why it is that, quite apart from their newly acquired wealth, after having taken their positions in Jerusalem, it is said that they collectively rebelled against their king and apostasized from the Catholic Church?

In sum, there is the notion, variously popularized by novelist Dan Brown and others not in novel form, that, while in Solomon's Mines, the knights came into contact with some sort of "proof" which demonstrated, sufficiently for them, that Jesus not only survived the crucifixion, but that the marriage at Cana, at which he reportedly turned water into wine, was his own, and that to Mary Magdelene, with whom he is said to have had children. Trace this idea, however heretical it is, through the Arthurian Legends, and especially the sangreal, or "royal blood," of the grail, and, regionally, starting with some of the architectural mysteries identified with Rosslyn Chapel.

Those reputed children of Jesus, the legend continues, which, I would guess, is probably part of closely held Freemasonic esoteric lore, became part of the Merovingian bloodline, which bloodline, through a series of dodgy papal maneuvers, was wrongfully replaced by the Carolingian kings in the Middle Ages. The displaced Merovingians, though now in the background, are said to survive, and, before long, it may well be announced to a shocked and -who knows?- maybe largely credulous world that a supposed son of Jesus, a scion of the Throne of David and thus rightful heir, will take his seat in Jerusalem and become king. However outlandish some of this stuff might seem, it impresses me as an alternative apocalypticism, bubbling away on the fringe and, quite possibly, held in some powerful secret societies, which apocalypticism is active, even if only sub rosa, and is thus worth noting. It could also be a very concrete means by which (pick a card) the "messiah" (Greek: Christ) or antichrist is revealed to the world.
Atleast, what I thought, after watching the Da Vinci Code was that it was a nice piece of predictive programming, should Jesus’ present-day descendants be unveiled to the whole world and Christendom is left to deal with the shock.

On second thought, given what Orthodox Jews and the Kabbalists think about the Christ that their ancestors crucified, why would they (in concert with the Freemasons) allow His issue to ascend the throne of David? Even more, why would the Freemasons closely guard the “secret” through the centuries with the intent to disclose it, as their ace, in immanentizing the eschaton given that the “sacred literature” of the aforementioned groups isn’t favorable to Jesus Christ and logically, the (supposed) fruit of His loins? It doesn’t make any sense.

Iam reposting this because I think it speaks volumes to the fact that the “3rd Temple and all the trimmings” is a Kabbalist agenda.
1560461795547.png
source
I took your warning (caveat lector) and didn’t google “anti-christ Merovingian” so I don’t end up in spiritual mental asylum :)

It's a good question. I have no answers. The closely held secrets of Freemasonry are exactly that, secrets, and few people, uninitiated into them, are probably able to accurately unveil them. It seems clear that Freemasons, at least during the initial three degrees of the so called "blue" lodge, are, if not obsessed, then at least preoccupied with the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple. The rites are apparently related thereto, and however much Albert Pike and others may claim, and this I have read him say, that the temple they are building is one "not made with hands," that doesn't necessarily preclude them from working to build the real deal, in Jerusalem.

A series of questions, then, to my mind arises: did Freemasonry historically attach itself in some way to Judaism, esoteric Judaism, that is, and more specifically to the Kabbalah, or did it originate from that source? Do they compete or cooperate? Furthermore, are international Freemasons, at the upper levels, working in concert with Jewish religious to rebuild Solomon's Temple and re-institute all of the related rites and rituals, including animal sacrifices for atoning purposes? Again, I do not know and cannot answer. This much seems clear: when one examines even the title chapters of Pike's Morals and Dogma, they sound, to me, rather more Jewish (Old Testament) than Christian, thus possibly giving rise to the contention, held by many through the years, that Masonry is, at root, "Judeo-Masonry."
______________________
edit to add:

Good comparison, @Vytas, and I think insightful!
I was intrigued by this so I looked around.
"The Freemasons have, at all events, seized with avidity the idea of representing in their symbolic language the interior and spiritual man by a material temple ... The great body of the Masonic Craft, looking only to this first Temple erected by the wisdom of King Solomon, make it the symbol of life; and as the great object of Masonry is the search after truth, they are directed to build up this temple as a fitting receptacle for truth ..." ["Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry", by Albert Mackey, MD, 33º and Charles T. McClenachan, 33º, Revised Edition, by Edward L. Hawkins, 30º and William J. Hughan, 32º, Volume II, M-Z, published by The Masonic History Company, Chicago, New York, London, 1873, A.G. Mackey, 1927, by the Masonic History Company, p. 774]

"... in the High Grades [of Masonry] we hear of a secret intention to build yet another temple at Jerusalem." [Author, Edward Waite, p. 486-7, "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: The Rites, Literature and History", Volume II, reprinted in 1970 by Weathervane Books].

The source makes a compelling argument even though I don’t agree with all their conclusions but the Freemasons deny it. I guess its hard to tell what they are or aren’t covering up for the sake of the overall agenda, e.g the same Grand Lodge denies Billy Graham as having ever been a Mason and yet the smaller lodges have him listed as one. Where is the discrepancy coming from? I guess it would look rather strange for (some) Christians and Freemasonry to share the same end-time belief, better for the latter to mislead the former by hushing up.
 






Serveto

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Typically good and thorough research, @Karlysymon. I read both sources, the point and the (Freemasonic) counter-point. In the former, written, apparently, by Christians, there are plenty of corroborating quotations, if they can be taken at face value and not reconfirmed, that show, from legitimate sources, that Freemasons are not only involved in ritually building a temple "not made with hands," but also Solomon's physical temple at Jerusalem. It's not a stretch to think they are also awaiting the reincarnation of Solomon to enter that temple once it's built. I think this quote is particularly telling:

"... in the High Grades [of Masonry] we hear of a secret intention to build yet another temple at Jerusalem." [Author, Edward Waite, p. 486-7, "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: The Rites, Literature and History", Volume II, reprinted in 1970 by Weathervane Books].

An odd thing, to me, and again assuming this quotation is legitimate, is how or why it is that Waite can here "reveal" a secret apparently reserved for the high grade initiates with impunity when he, himself, is presumably forsworn to secrecy. But that is an aside, and the quotation is fascinating. Thank you for finding and posting it.

Karlysymon said:
I guess it would look rather strange for (some) Christians and Freemasonry to share the same end-time belief, better for the latter to mislead the former by hushing up.
I don't find it that strange that some Christians and Freemasons would share the same or similar end-time belief, and that not because they are necessarily influenced by each other. On the contrary: Christians could hold that the "messiah" Freemasons are working to produce is their antichrist, and I think many do.
Karlysymon said:
On second thought, given what Orthodox Jews and the Kabbalists think about the Christ that their ancestors crucified, why would they (in concert with the Freemasons) allow His issue to ascend the throne of David? Even more, why would the Freemasons closely guard the “secret” through the centuries with the intent to disclose it, as their ace, in immanentizing the eschaton given that the “sacred literature” of the aforementioned groups isn’t favorable to Jesus Christ and logically, the (supposed) fruit of His loins? It doesn’t make any sense.
Understood. It might be important, in this case, to separate Orthodox Judaism from Kabbalah. While it's true that, as I only superficially understand, some Orthodox Jews, the Hassidim in particular, put stock in Kabbalah, not all do. At any rate, I think the author of the apparently Christian source you provide above suggests a plausibility:

"To finally realize this dream, control of Jerusalem generally, and of the Temple Mount, especially, must pass from Israeli control; but it must not pass to Arab control. Rather, control of Jerusalem must pass to the Illuminized International Community."

I think, in some ways, just as traditional, "doctrinal" Christianity is essentially upended by those who hold this notion of a Merovingian king as a descendant of Jesus, normative, rabbinic Orthodox Judaism, when its emphasis is on Talmud over the Kabbalah, will be upset by the joining of the said king to the Throne of David.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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I have become increasingly aware that when it comes to numbers and symbols, there seems to be a case to answer for “stolen symbolism”.

It appears that Satan is a plagiarist, intent on emulation and misappropriation. Strange also that the 153 fish, Tesla’s 369, cubes and stars should be the banners on the spiritual battleground.

 






elsbet

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Typically good and thorough research, @Karlysymon. I read both sources, the point and the (Freemasonic) counter-point. In the former, written, apparently, by Christians, there are plenty of corroborating quotations, if they can be taken at face value and not reconfirmed, that show, from legitimate sources, that Freemasons are not only involved in ritually building a temple "not made with hands," but also Solomon's physical temple at Jerusalem. It's not a stretch to think they are also awaiting the reincarnation of Solomon to enter that temple once it's built. I think this quote is particularly telling:

"... in the High Grades [of Masonry] we hear of a secret intention to build yet another temple at Jerusalem." [Author, Edward Waite, p. 486-7, "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: The Rites, Literature and History", Volume II, reprinted in 1970 by Weathervane Books].

An odd thing, to me, and again assuming this quotation is legitimate, is how or why it is that Waite can here "reveal" a secret apparently reserved for the high grade initiates with impunity when he, himself, is presumably forsworn to secrecy. But that is an aside, and the quotation is fascinating. Thank you for finding and posting it.


I don't find it that strange that some Christians and Freemasons would share the same or similar end-time belief, and that not because they are necessarily influenced by each other. On the contrary: Christians could hold that the "messiah" Freemasons are working to produce is their antichrist, and I think many do.

Understood. It might be important, in this case, to separate Orthodox Judaism from Kabbalah. While it's true that, as I only superficially understand, some Orthodox Jews, the Hassidim in particular, put stock in Kabbalah, not all do. At any rate, I think the author of the apparently Christian source you provide above suggests a plausibility:

"To finally realize this dream, control of Jerusalem generally, and of the Temple Mount, especially, must pass from Israeli control; but it must not pass to Arab control. Rather, control of Jerusalem must pass to the Illuminized International Community."

I think, in some ways, just as traditional, "doctrinal" Christianity is essentially upended by those who hold this notion of a Merovingian king as a descendant of Jesus, normative, rabbinic Orthodox Judaism, when its emphasis is on Talmud over the Kabbalah, will be upset by the joining of the said king to the Throne of David.
So much plus +1 to you and @Karlysymon for taking the overhead view, here. Looking forward to reading the rest of this exchange. Withholding commentary, until then.

:)
 






Serveto

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So much plus +1 to you and @Karlysymon for taking the overhead view, here. Looking forward to reading the rest of this exchange. Withholding commentary, until then. :)
You know best when to jump in and participate, but please do so at anytime. We are just sort of sharing notes, in a sense, and the topic by definition includes plenty of legends as it unfolds in this thread. You might already know, but the topic also includes, on one especially fantastic level, a subject which interests you: the nephilim. It is said, in relation to the Merovingian bloodline, that Meroveus was the son not only of Clodion but also of a sea creature, Bistea Neptunis, which creature some Christians are identifying as being possibly correlated to the "beast from the sea" referred to in Revelation. So far from being the progeny of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, which is only thought to be a cover, he is actually born of a sort of Leviathan. I get this from a combination of primarily imaginative Christian sources I have recently read so cannot directly link to anything, but it can be found by searching key words on a search engine.
_________________________________

Concerning the more concrete issue of whether or not Freemasons are planning to build an actual physical temple as well as their temple "not made with hands," take or leave this for what it is worth (author includes image of referenced Illustrated London News at the link) ...

"... due to the occult value or sacredness of the numerous elements surrounding Freemason versions of Solomon’s Temple (on which all Masonic lodges and ceremonial rituals are based), there has been an idea for some time that groups from among the Freemasons and illuminated fraternities intend to rebuild or to participate in the rebuilding of a glorious new Temple in Jerusalem fashioned after the one built by Solomon. Disclosure of this has occasionally reached the public’s ear. The Illustrated London News, August 28, 1909, ran a spectacular supplement detailing this goal. The article was titled, “The Freemason’s Plan to Rebuild Solomon’s Temple at Jerusalem.” Three years later, September 22, 1912, the New York Times published an outline by Freemasons to rebuild the Temple under the title, “Solomon’s Temple: Scheme of Freemasons and Opinions of Jews on Rebuilding.”"
Dr. Thomas Horn
 






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elsbet

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You know best when to jump in and participate, but please do so at anytime. We are just sort of sharing notes, in a sense, and the topic by definition includes plenty of legends as it unfolds in this thread. You might already know, but the topic also includes, on one especially fantastic level, a subject which interests you: the nephilim. It is said, in relation to the Merovingian bloodline, that Meroveus was the son not only of Clodion but also of a sea creature, Bistea Neptunis, which creature some Christians are identifying as, possibly, correlated to the "beast from the sea" referred to in Revelation. So far from being the progeny of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, which is only thought to be a cover, he is actually born of a sort of Leviathan. I get this from a combination of primarily imaginative Christian sources I have recently read so cannot directly link to anything, but it can be found by searching key words on a search engine.
_________________________________

Concerning the more concrete issue of whether or not Freemasons are planning to build an actual physical temple as well as their temple "not made with hands," take or leave this for what it is worth (author includes image of referenced Illustrated London News at the link) ...

"... due to the occult value or sacredness of the numerous elements surrounding Freemason versions of Solomon’s Temple (on which all Masonic lodges and ceremonial rituals are based), there has been an idea for some time that groups from among the Freemasons and illuminated fraternities intend to rebuild or to participate in the rebuilding of a glorious new Temple in Jerusalem fashioned after the one built by Solomon. Disclosure of this has occasionally reached the public’s ear. The Illustrated London News, August 28, 1909, ran a spectacular supplement detailing this goal. The article was titled, “The Freemason’s Plan to Rebuild Solomon’s Temple at Jerusalem.” Three years later, September 22, 1912, the New York Times published an outline by Freemasons to rebuild the Temple under the title, “Solomon’s Temple: Scheme of Freemasons and Opinions of Jews on Rebuilding.”"

Fantastic... I'll jump in shortly.

It is interesting to note, especially where the freemasons are concerned-- there are two Enochs, biblically speaking: one, son of Jared, who walked with God, and then he was no more, because God had taken him away... (GEN 5)-- and another, son of Cain, the original builder, and the namesake of the first city built by him.

Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch. (GEN 4)

Very easy to confuse the two, when researching the Fallen and freemasonry, since both figure prominently. :)

Good stuff, @Serveto
 






Serveto

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I've often wished that we here in the States had the equivalent of BBC 4, even if it is sometimes rightly known as British Bullshit Corporation, and this {click here}, for those who might be interested, is their short, informative and well produced documentary on John Dee, court adviser to Queen Elizabeth I.

I post it because, speaking of Enoch, and in this case I assume, as @elsbet points out, the son of Cain, not seventh from Adam (inclusive), the process by which Dee and his magical accomplice, Edward Kelly, channeled a "language of angels" is shown, as well is told, in part, the price they paid, spiritually, mentally and physically, for their acquisition. This "Enochian" language, by the way, used to invoke "angels," at least angels so called, was further advanced by the later (occult) Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which magical group was both active and influential during the late 19th Century. The Golden Dawn, for short, had as members, among others, S.L MacGregor Mathers, cited, at times, by Blavatsky in her works, as well the visionary poet, W.B. Yeats, and, not least, Aleister Crowley. Some Christians, investigating the matter, consider this mysterious language, with its complex system of later-added correspondences, including signs of the Zodiac, etc., a possible return or example of that which God is said to have confused at the time of the Biblical Tower of Babel.
 






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Karlysymon

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Typically good and thorough research, @Karlysymon. I read both sources, the point and the (Freemasonic) counter-point. In the former, written, apparently, by Christians, there are plenty of corroborating quotations, if they can be taken at face value and not reconfirmed, that show, from legitimate sources, that Freemasons are not only involved in ritually building a temple "not made with hands," but also Solomon's physical temple at Jerusalem. It's not a stretch to think they are also awaiting the reincarnation of Solomon to enter that temple once it's built. I think this quote is particularly telling:

"... in the High Grades [of Masonry] we hear of a secret intention to build yet another temple at Jerusalem." [Author, Edward Waite, p. 486-7, "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: The Rites, Literature and History", Volume II, reprinted in 1970 by Weathervane Books].

An odd thing, to me, and again assuming this quotation is legitimate, is how or why it is that Waite can here "reveal" a secret apparently reserved for the high grade initiates with impunity when he, himself, is presumably forsworn to secrecy. But that is an aside, and the quotation is fascinating. Thank you for finding and posting it.


I don't find it that strange that some Christians and Freemasons would share the same or similar end-time belief, and that not because they are necessarily influenced by each other. On the contrary: Christians could hold that the "messiah" Freemasons are working to produce is their antichrist, and I think many do.
I felt that the Freemasonic counterpoint was a bit weak but they did some interesting name-dropping (Lord Northampton, DR. T. E Allibone, DR. Asher Kaufman, Sir Charles Warren) and if these individuals privately had anything to do with the creation of the state of Israel or if they were Zionists, then maybe there might be something to it?

Further, you asked a worthwhile question.

Furthermore, are international Freemasons, at the upper levels, working in concert with Jewish religious to rebuild Solomon's Temple and re-institute all of the related rites and rituals, including animal sacrifices for atoning purposes? Again, I do not know and cannot answer.
If the Jewish Kabbalists want the temple rites reinstituted, does that have any bearing on what the Freemasons believe and want? What does/ what would the sacrificial system mean to the Masons and do they secretly hold such beliefs? If that information came to light, it would definitely be a shocker.

My pov is that the Temple is nothing without the office of the High Priest or the priestly class. Imagine the tabernacle in the wilderness without Aaron and his sons or for that matter the subsequent structures that replaced it. It was central to Jewish life (Luke 2:22-24) and now I think that this office is the key to understanding why the Kabbalists and (possibly the) Freemasons so desperately want the Temple erected. This is my theory:

In the “An Encyclopedia of Freemasonry 1916 Vol 1: A.G Mackey” i found this:

“The Lodge, technically speaking, is a piece of furniture made in imitation of the Ark of the Covenant, which was constructed by Bezalel, according to the form prescribed by God himself and which after the erection of the Temple was kept in the Holy of Holies. As that contained the table of Laws, the Lodge contains the Book of Constitutions and the Warrant of Constitution granted by the Grand Lodge. It is used only in certain ceremonies such as the constitution and consecration of new lodges.” Page 482

And

“This dress [garments of the Levitical High Priest] as the Rabbins describe it consisted of 8 parts***……As these garments are to a certain extent represented in the vestment of a High Priest of a Royal Arch Chapter.”
Page 348 (also pg 169)

***edited out the descriptions, iam sure everyone is familiar with the ephod, breastplate etc.

Now, I don’t know that many religions which meticulously pattern their houses of worship (in this case, the Lodge/Masonic Temple) after the Tabernacle. I don’t think the Synagogues come even close. So there is definitely something more to this Freemasonic obsession with it, down to the garments.

From a Christian perspective, the gathering of the Kohanim and reinstituting the sacrificial system is a blatant rejection of the Cross and Christ’s priestly ministry because according to the book of Hebrews, God already has His own High Priest ministering in a greater Tabernacle, so whatever humans are up to down here, is something else, in which He has no part. So this begs the questions, why would the Kabbalists and presumably the Masons cling to this? Have they taken the way of Cain? (Jude 11)

I read somewhere that the defining issue at the end of the age will be the same as at the beginning….Worship: rather who or what you worship. It shattered the First family and the same drama will be played out at the end (Rev 13:15). Apparently, Cain’s offering of some (not even the best) of the “fruit of the soil” (Gen 4:3) was an explicit rejection of Christ’s (future) atonement typified by offerings that demanded the shedding of blood and that is why God looked at Abel’s offering with favor. So, is the rejection of Christ’s priesthood, the modern version of taking ‘the way of Cain’?

Last I checked on this board, acknowledging Christ’s priesthood was called a heresy. Anyway, speaking of Cain, how much does he or his progeny feature in Masonic literature?

I recently came across this interesting comment:

Though living in an age of ecumenism, Protestants would do well to remember the terrible persecution of the past because, according to prophecy, something similar, but only worse, will happen again.

Now, if the human family is going to be split again into two camps over the issue of worship, I guess its time to get well acquainted with the would-be persecutors. The question here though is: will the authority that will take its seat in Jerusalem permit religious tolerance? And what will the Christian Zionists think when they are thrown under the bus?

Also, in quoting Dr. Horn, if the Freemasons are this fixated on the Temple of Solomon, is it really such a stretch to believe that they really want the 3rd temple rebuilt? I guess that it would be the Grand Lodge of all Grand Lodges and the Mason would have to make a pilgrimage as the muslim does to Mecca.

And I think that this is where Trump comes in as a Trojan horse for the Evangelicals who are dispensationalists. While it may seem as though he is following the “biblical mandate” to “bless” Israel, he is merely fulfilling the wishes of another entity. So, is the eschatological timeline of: Israel is created in ’48—gets Jerusalem all to itself with expanded borders—temple gets built--christ descends to reign out of Jerusalem for the Millenium….is that God-ordained or Kabbala scripted?

Also, as often or widely this interpretation of the verses is, ….
"While not all Evangelicals agree, some dispensationalist students of prophecy recognize the importance of such plans as signaling the coming of Antichrist and view Old and New Testament Scriptures as explaining that a false Jewish messiah will appear, enthroning himself as God in the Temple in Jerusalem, but afterward, he will defile the holy place by setting up a sacrilegious object—perhaps an image of himself—in the Temple and ordering the sacrifices and offerings to cease (see Daniel 9:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4). For any of this to occur, it is necessary for the Temple to be rebuilt,"

I think it is a null and void interpretation. There is nothing HOLY about an edifice raised up and run fundamentally on the basis of rejection of God and His Love for man (exhibited at and through the Cross). And who designated it as holy? So, Whether the anti-Christ shows up and the sacrifices and offerings cease, its pretty much just a show because the sacrifices and offerings that he will be stopping are already a statement of rejection of God, Christ’s death and Priesthood. So, what is the whole point of ordering the cessation when they further his agenda? He is the ANTI-CHRIST afterall! The book of Hebrews, alone, destroys that interpretation. So, I think that while the Freemasons may not be all-in with the idea of reinstituting sacrifices, they probably acquiesce to the philosophy behind it…rejecting Christ’s priesthood and all it entails.

Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him and who has insulted the spirit of grace?” Hebrews 10:28-29

Sorry , long response.
Understood. It might be important, in this case, to separate Orthodox Judaism from Kabbalah. While it's true that, as I only superficially understand, some Orthodox Jews, the Hassidim in particular, put stock in Kabbalah, not all do. At any rate, I think the author of the apparently Christian source you provide above suggests a plausibility:

"To finally realize this dream, control of Jerusalem generally, and of the Temple Mount, especially, must pass from Israeli control; but it must not pass to Arab control. Rather, control of Jerusalem must pass to the Illuminized International Community."

I think, in some ways, just as traditional, "doctrinal" Christianity is essentially upended by those who hold this notion of a Merovingian king as a descendant of Jesus, normative, rabbinic Orthodox Judaism, when its emphasis is on Talmud over the Kabbalah, will be upset by the joining of the said king to the Throne of David.
I do take note of your corrections but I tend to lose my head and run with generalizations as iam not well-versed with all the sects in Judaism and their respective inclinations. :)

@elsbet So who is the author of the Book of Enoch, since Cain's entire line was wiped out and Enoch(Seth) was translated long before the flood?
 






elsbet

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@elsbet So who is the author of the Book of Enoch, since Cain's entire line was wiped out and Enoch(Seth) was translated long before the flood?
Since he was translated before the flood-- how would that disqualify him? His great grandson owned the only God-ordained vessel to cross the deluge.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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@Karlysymon

I think this comment is pertinent to the discussion:-

John 5:43 King James Version (KJV)

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus predicts that he will not be received by His own people, and that at a future time they will instead receive another. In the context of this discussion, the question must asked “is Jesus glad about this and supportive of it?”

A third Temple, if it were built, would be an outward expression of a continued, national rejection of Jesus. It is not something I would fight for, or “enjoy” arriving (any more than witnessing the destruction of Damascus as indicated in Isaiah 17). Any “celebration” (I suggest even by “Evangelical, Dispensational Protestant Christian Zionists”;-) of such events would only be in the sense in which they confirm God’s wider prophetic plan.

The next question that occurred to me is whether Satan believes in Bible prophecy and, if so, what would his likely response be?
 






Karlysymon

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@Karlysymon

I think this comment is pertinent to the discussion:-

John 5:43 King James Version (KJV)

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus predicts that he will not be received by His own people, and that at a future time they will instead receive another. In the context of this discussion, the question must asked “is Jesus glad about this and supportive of it?”
Ofcourse not! Thanks for the verse.
A third Temple, if it were built, would be an outward expression of a continued, national rejection of Jesus. It is not something I would fight for, or “enjoy” arriving (any more than witnessing the destruction of Damascus as indicated in Isaiah 17). Any “celebration” (I suggest even by “Evangelical, Dispensational Protestant Christian Zionists”;-) of such events would only be in the sense in which they confirm God’s wider prophetic plan.
I fully understand. So when is the national repentance supposed to happen? In the last 3 and half years? I will say though that personally, i don't believe that Isaiah 17 is really about present-day Syria. I believe that its a verse that was dredged up to placate the average Christian who would have misgivings about the war. Kinda like.....it-was-already-prophesied-anyway attitude.
The next question that occurred to me is whether Satan believes in Bible prophecy and, if so, what would his likely response be?
Ofcourse he does and if you read Serveto's link by Tom Horn, at the end, he says that the Freemasonic interest in Solomon's temple is definitely a game-changer, alongside all the other parties that are interested. I believe Israel has a pivotal role to play in the endgame, not only from a dispensationalist view point.

Edit: example on Syria
Damascus to become a ruinous heap?
 






Last edited:

Karlysymon

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I said:
I will say though that personally, i don't believe that Isaiah 17 is really about present-day Syria. I believe that its a verse that was dredged up to placate the average Christian who would have misgivings about the war. Kinda like.....it-was-already-prophesied-anyway attitude.
For example, if Damascus is destroyed overnight in line with Isaiah 17, Christian Zionists, Trump and Netanyahu will be blamed!

It seems to me that the self-styled “Grand Architect” will have been about the same business for some time. As each milestone on the road to prophetic fulfilment occurs, he has made sure that he has had one of his own people in the mix. By doing this, he is able to effectively build a counter-narrative that the Bible calls a “Strong Delusion” where ultimately people will be able to look out on a world straight out of the Book of Revelation and not see what is before their eyes.
I’ve moved this here and we will continue our other conversation here aswell.

I read myself into your post. I can confidently “not see what is before my eyes” in regard to Damascus and Isaiah 17. My confidence comes from the fact that I’ve been burned before: with the Iraq war. I maintain my belief that Isaiah 17:1 has nothing to do with the mess in Syria but that these verses are trotted out to neuter opposition. Its not the first time nor the last. Pompeo, Pence etc are on tour trying to sell a war with Iran to the average pew dweller (will post something about it in another thread), how do you think they are doing it? Bush, as is well known, tried his hand at it.

I remember so well how the Iraq war was sold, I was told how prophetic the invasion was, down to the date! I’ve failed to find the Perry Stone video but since he wasn’t the only one, this will do.

"End Times prophecy foretelling Babylon's final physical judgment is being fulfilled with Coalition tactics in your Daily News, as our military action is quickly fulfilling Isaiah 13! World will then quickly move into "Final Birth Pangs" war (Matthew 24:6-8) and into Joel 3.

As American and British forces were leaping across the Iraqi border in late March, 2003, we studied God's climactic physical judgment upon Babylon in the Last Days,….." Link

Back then, I was young, naïve and blissfully ignorant about PNAC, Neocons or the Israel Lobby. So I had no reasons to disbelieve what the “men of God” were telling me. What reasons did they have to lie to their audiences? You do know that the UK had one of the biggest protests against the invasion of Iraq. So, lets just say that Syria, rather than using proxies, had been invaded the same way. Would you take part in the protests and if so, what would be at the back of your mind with the knowledge of Isaiah 17? I, for one, would say to myself: protesting is pointless since its prophesied to happen. Its basically protesting the hand of God. And that is why there will be very little opposition from Zionist/Pre-trib Christians to a war with Iran. If only it were possible for me to do a survey among protest marchers: are you a practicing Christian: are you a Pre-trib Christian? I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s next to zero presence of pre-tribers.

I believe in prophecies wholeheartedly but I also have to understand and be cognizant of the fact that some prophecies will be (purposefully) misread/twisted, by TPTB and their fellow travelers, to advance some cause. Sometimes, they are misread by the lay person inorder to make sense of what is going on in our world (I got an earful from Jonathan Cahn the other day, while he was promoting his new book). Even a surface reading of Isaiah 13 shows that it has nothing to do with Iraq or Bush’s Middle East misadventures. If indeed that text was describing the destruction of Iraq, the authors of the article and others who made such claims at the time of the invasion should have gone further and clarified the identity and fate, in the next chapter, of the king of Babylon…umm…Iraq. Which king is described as:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
(Isaiah 14: 12-14)
Does Saddam, by any chance, fit the bill?

I also think that the other reason why we read the news/tptb machinations into some of these prophecies is because of Israel. If Israel didn’t exist as a nation in the ME, the destruction of these countries wouldn’t be touted as “prophecy fulfilled”. If we accept that the nation of Israel makes no appearances in end-time prophecies, then the mis-reading instantly goes away. So now you understand where iam coming from and why I can’t take the bait in regard to Isaiah 17.
 






Serveto

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Messages
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I’ve moved this here and we will continue our other conversation here aswell.

I read myself into your post. I can confidently “not see what is before my eyes” in regard to Damascus and Isaiah 17. My confidence comes from the fact that I’ve been burned before: with the Iraq war. I maintain my belief that Isaiah 17:1 has nothing to do with the mess in Syria but that these verses are trotted out to neuter opposition. Its not the first time nor the last. Pompeo, Pence etc are on tour trying to sell a war with Iran to the average pew dweller (will post something about it in another thread), how do you think they are doing it? Bush, as is well known, tried his hand at it.

I remember so well how the Iraq war was sold, I was told how prophetic the invasion was, down to the date! I’ve failed to find the Perry Stone video but since he wasn’t the only one, this will do.

"End Times prophecy foretelling Babylon's final physical judgment is being fulfilled with Coalition tactics in your Daily News, as our military action is quickly fulfilling Isaiah 13! World will then quickly move into "Final Birth Pangs" war (Matthew 24:6-8) and into Joel 3.

As American and British forces were leaping across the Iraqi border in late March, 2003, we studied God's climactic physical judgment upon Babylon in the Last Days,….." Link

Back then, I was young, naïve and blissfully ignorant about PNAC, Neocons or the Israel Lobby. So I had no reasons to disbelieve what the “men of God” were telling me. What reasons did they have to lie to their audiences? You do know that the UK had one of the biggest protests against the invasion of Iraq. So, lets just say that Syria, rather than using proxies, had been invaded the same way. Would you take part in the protests and if so, what would be at the back of your mind with the knowledge of Isaiah 17? I, for one, would say to myself: protesting is pointless since its prophesied to happen. Its basically protesting the hand of God. And that is why there will be very little opposition from Zionist/Pre-trib Christians to a war with Iran. If only it were possible for me to do a survey among protest marchers: are you a practicing Christian: are you a Pre-trib Christian? I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s next to zero presence of pre-tribers.

I believe in prophecies wholeheartedly but I also have to understand and be cognizant of the fact that some prophecies will be (purposefully) misread/twisted, by TPTB and their fellow travelers, to advance some cause. Sometimes, they are misread by the lay person inorder to make sense of what is going on in our world (I got an earful from Jonathan Cahn the other day, while he was promoting his new book). Even a surface reading of Isaiah 13 shows that it has nothing to do with Iraq or Bush’s Middle East misadventures. If indeed that text was describing the destruction of Iraq, the authors of the article and others who made such claims at the time of the invasion should have gone further and clarified the identity and fate, in the next chapter, of the king of Babylon…umm…Iraq. Which king is described as:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
(Isaiah 14: 12-14)
Does Saddam, by any chance, fit the bill?

I also think that the other reason why we read the news/tptb machinations into some of these prophecies is because of Israel. If Israel didn’t exist as a nation in the ME, the destruction of these countries wouldn’t be touted as “prophecy fulfilled”. If we accept that the nation of Israel makes no appearances in end-time prophecies, then the mis-reading instantly goes away. So now you understand where iam coming from and why I can’t take the bait in regard to Isaiah 17.
"What [Sheldon Adelson] wants, [Sheldon Adelson] gets ...God help us all."
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Messages
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So much of this discussion is based on what people understand by terms. This is why the terms we are using are becoming almost useless!!! “Political Zionism” (as I understand it) is a secular movement that cherry picks Bible prophecy for the positive statements whilst ignoring its darker and more troubling words. It also seems to confuse timescales for prophecies, or seeks to accomplish certain things in its on strength.

As usual, the extent to which these people misinterpret scripture is the extent to which they are “off”.

So why do I identify as a “Christian Zionist”?

Perhaps because I read the Bible as the whole revelation of God? I see God’s plan unfolding in these last few years like never before in my lifetime. I think the Jews at present cannot see truly what is going on and make all kinds of interpretive errors as to the “why” of their return, but make no mistake, a literal return was prophesied and a literal return has (and continues to occur).

There are a range of prophetic expectations over “what happens next”. Depending on people’s presuppositions as to the reliability and interpretation of their sources, they will perceive things differently.
 






Serveto

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From a Christian perspective, the gathering of the Kohanim and reinstituting the sacrificial system is a blatant rejection of the Cross and Christ’s priestly ministry because according to the book of Hebrews, God already has His own High Priest ministering in a greater Tabernacle, so whatever humans are up to down here, is something else, in which He has no part. So this begs the questions, why would the Kabbalists and presumably the Masons cling to this? Have they taken the way of Cain? (Jude 11)
Please excuse my delay, but it seems you're on sabbatical as well. I cannot speak for the Kabbalists, in this case, but here is an interesting, if lengthy, article by Max Heindel, who is apparently not considered an authority on anything except his own opinion, in which he presents a sort of apologia for Luciferianism. In it, he purports to explain the age-old conflict between the presumably docile, "obedient" sons of Abel as against the sons of Cain, or of fire, that is Lucifer. He sides with the latter. I read it once, but don't remember much of its contents. Find the article {click} here and win, sometime, at the game of Trivial Pursuit :).
 






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Karlysymon

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Messages
3,755
Please excuse my delay, but it seems you're on sabbatical as well. I cannot speak for the Kabbalists, in this case, but here is an interesting, if lengthy, article by Max Heindel, who is apparently not considered an authority on anything except his own opinion, in which he presents a sort of apologia for Luciferianism. In it, he purports to explain the age-old conflict between the presumably docile, "obedient" sons of Abel as against the sons of Cain, or of fire, that is Lucifer. He sides with the latter. I read it once, but don't remember much of its contents. Find the article {click} here and win, sometime, at the game of Trivial Pursuit :).
Chapter 7 is saying as much, i find, about J.K Rowling's little operation aimed at those born in the 2000s as this is the first book in the series.
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