The Mother of All Causes: the Father of Lies

[TokiEl]

Moses wrote in what is called the proto sinaitic/cananite script and this is how he wrote the word we know in english as YHWH.

A hand and a person and a nail and a person.



​

And that's why YHWH is used interchangeably in the hebrew old testament about Elyon and Adonay whom we know from the greek new testament as the Father and the Son.

 

[TokiEl]

You know the story... the Father nailing the Son to a cross for our crimes.

 

[Maldarker]

You know the story... the Father nailing the Son to a cross for our crimes.

And the very first example of this is abraham & issac...

 

[TokiEl]

And the very first example of this is abraham & issac...

God tested Abraham to see if he would obey about sacrificing his beloved only son whom he got in old age.

Yes God had to stop Abraham from sticking the knife into Isaac's heart.

And God provided a substitute sacrifice... a ram caught in a thornbush.


Or a Lamb caught in a crown of thorns.

 

[Artful Revealer]

I remember we delved into this some years ago. I would reread the new testament and note( highlight) how many things Christ said and did to illustrate his close relationship with the God of Israel. Ask the holy spirit to show you. This is a spiritual battle and spiritual truths cannot be interpreted by the natural mind.

Christ referred to the temple as HIS father's house. He claimed to be the very passover that the God of Israel gave to his people. He spoke of dining with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and his father kingdom. He perfectly obeyed and adhered to the law of the Jews and came to establish it. He said he was the fulfillment of various prophecies of the old testament prophets. He even identified himself with Moses and his ministry. That's just scratching the surface and I didn't even go into anything after the book of john. Don't be deceived.

1. Was that Temple built to worship God? If the answer is yes, how does that not make it the house of His Father?
*This does not mean the worshippers or priests in said temples were worshipping His Father, something, in fact, Jesus was very explicit about.

2. Jesus is God's intervention to save man and convert the Jews. Both kinda go hand in hand. In Israel, men gave their god eternal life by sacrificing the blood of the innocent (animals and firstborn). Jesus gave His own blood (of Innocence itself) to give eternal life to men. Foreshadowing is a cope. It is the extreme opposite.
That is the Christian Passover versus the Jewish pesach: God defeating the Devil in his own "game"; and no longer was Passover a celebration of infanticide, but a commemoration of God's ultimate grace. The world was baptised (cleansed from sin).

3. Jesus broke the law, which the Jewish priesthood accused Him of. According to their book, they were right. According to Jesus, they didn't understand the difference between lawful and good. I'm saying Jesus was right. See my Green Light story.

Where does Jesus identify Himself with Moses? There's a similarity between them as being symbols of freeing the sons of the Kingdom from bondage, but this symbolic comparison can be seen as part of Jesus' or His disciples' mission to convert the Hebrews.

 

[Artful Revealer]

God is a proto indo word and so not found in the hebrew bible where the words are elohim (plural) and el (singular).



Exodus 3 14Elohim said to Moses, “I AM THAT I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Exodus 6 2Elohim also told Moses, “I am YHWH. 3I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El Almighty, but by My name YHWH I did not make Myself known to them.

John 8 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”



The Elohim of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is Jesus Christ. He is the El Almighty also known as YHWH.

The 'I am that I am' theory is bogus, no offense. It's even more silly to suggest that Jesus' "I AM" proclamation is in any way referring to the Tetragrammaton.

It has no etymology that any academic can reliably trace back, which is probably because it's simply a post-Christian Masoretic development. Originally the name was Yhw and if you want to linguistically propose the "I am that I am" etymology, you will have to establish the link with the root h-y-h.

However, an academic etymology (see Thomas Römer) completely in line with the thesis of the OP is hwy. hwy means:

1. desire (tempting)
2. fall (like an angel?)
3. blow (like a storm)

Interestingly enough, the Arabic meaning of hwy is "to destroy", which ironically (or not) is the literal meaning of Shaddai (El Shaddai: the Destroyer).

 

[Lyfe]

1. Was that Temple built to worship God? If the answer is yes, how does that not make it the house of His Father?
*This does not mean the worshippers or priests in said temples were worshipping His Father, something, in fact, Jesus was very explicit about.

2. Jesus is God's intervention to save man and convert the Jews. Both kinda go hand in hand. In Israel, men gave their god eternal life by sacrificing the blood of the innocent (animals and firstborn). Jesus gave His own blood (of Innocence itself) to give eternal life to men. Foreshadowing is a cope. It is the extreme opposite.
That is the Christian Passover versus the Jewish pesach: God defeating the Devil in his own "game"; and no longer was Passover a celebration of infanticide, but a commemoration of God's ultimate grace. The world was baptised (cleansed from sin).

3. Jesus broke the law, which the Jewish priesthood accused Him of. According to their book, they were right. According to Jesus, they didn't understand the difference between lawful and good. I'm saying Jesus was right. See my Green Light story.

Where does Jesus identify Himself with Moses? There's a similarity between them as being symbols of freeing the sons of the Kingdom from bondage, but this symbolic comparison can be seen as part of Jesus' or His disciples' mission to convert the Hebrews.

I could post more references to scripture, but I am sure you already have some sort of premeditated rebuttal lined up. I'm just baffled that you still choose to hold to your views after all these years. How do you believe that you can have Christ and claim to be a Christian when you deny his father?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I could post more references to scripture, but I am sure you already have some sort of premeditated rebuttal lined up. I'm just baffled that you still choose to hold to your views after all these years. How do you believe that you can have Christ and claim to be a Christian when you deny his father?

As in, the Father to whom the Son reconciles us??

2 Corinthians 5

Be Reconciled to God
12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not [a]imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[TokiEl]

The 'I am that I am' theory is bogus, no offense. It's even more silly to suggest that Jesus' "I AM" proclamation is in any way referring to the Tetragrammaton.

Moses asked God... Who shall i say sent me ? And God answered... Tell them I am sent you.

That's what Jesus referred to when He said... Truly truly before Abraham was born I am.


God also presented Himself to Moses as YHWH... which is called the Tetragrammaton (four letters).

Moses wrote it down as shown above in the proto sinaitic/cananite script as hand person nail person.

Originally the name was Yhw and if you want to linguistically propose the "I am that I am" etymology, you will have to establish the link with the root h-y-h.

For example in Isaiah 26:4 it is written...

Trust in YHWH even to forever for in YH YHWH is everlasting strength.


Interesting since hand person nail person (YHWH) everlasting strength is in hand person (YH).

 

[Artful Revealer]

I could post more references to scripture, but I am sure you already have some sort of premeditated rebuttal lined up. I'm just baffled that you still choose to hold to your views after all these years. How do you believe that you can have Christ and claim to be a Christian when you deny his father?

What matters is whether the rebuttals themselves are sound.

1. If you were my long lost brother who's been raised by a stepfather and when I found you and told you that your father and my father are one, does that mean your stepfather is our biological father?

2. Are the following two statements the opposite or not?

X demands Y to shed blood so X gains eternal life.

vs

X sheds His blood to give Y eternal life.​

3. Did Jesus not break the Law? (by fe. healing a man on Sabbath)



And finally, who was unrevealed before Jesus revealed Him? Is the logical conclusion not that you're mistaking His Father for a deity that had already been revealed many times prior to Christ's presence on Earth? I'm not denying God, the Father. You are mistaking Him for some ... thing else.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

3. Did Jesus not break the Law? (by fe. healing a man on Sabbath)

I think Jesus challenged the religious interpretations of the Law deliberately and provocatively, BUT there was no specific law against healing on the Sabbath.

The spirit of the Law might have been invoked by the Pharisees to suggest that Jesus exerted effort to heal, but that goes to something that had never occurred to me so clearly - Jesus healed the sick as a man imbued with the strength the Father gave Him to do so, which is how the disciples when they were sent out did the same.

John 14

8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

The Answered Prayer
12“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you[c]ask anything in My name, I will do it.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

P.s. This (ex) Muslim lady’s experience of coming to faith is actually quite pertinent to the topic.

I dared to call Him “Father”

Chapter 5 (extract) “O Father, my Father . . . Father God.” Hesitantly, I spoke His name aloud. I tried different ways of speaking to Him. And then, as if something broke through for me I found myself trusting that He was indeed hearing me, just as my earthly father had always done. “Father, O...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[Lyfe]

What matters is whether the rebuttals themselves are sound.

1. If you were my long lost brother who's been raised by a stepfather and when I found you and told you that your father and my father are one, does that mean your stepfather is our biological father?

2. Are the following two statements the opposite or not?

X demands Y to shed blood so X gains eternal life.

vs

X sheds His blood to give Y eternal life.​

3. Did Jesus not break the Law? (by fe. healing a man on Sabbath)



And finally, who was unrevealed before Jesus revealed Him? Is the logical conclusion not that you're mistaking His Father for a deity that had already been revealed many times prior to Christ's presence on Earth? I'm not denying God, the Father. You are mistaking Him for some ... thing else.

We cannot arrive at God through human reasoning and if we try to we won't get past the veil that Paul was speaking about. We will be kept from being able to look upon and perceive the glory of the salvation of God through Christ. We must humble ourselves and come to the kingdom as little children. Was it not Christ that said The Father hides himself from the wise and prudent, but reveals the unknown wisdom and truths of the kingdom to babes? These things have been hidden for ages, but Christ came to reveal them in this final time. We can't arrive to God through out own intellect. How many think God is this or that, but don't even come close? What makes you any different from someone who contends God is the universe or etc? It all comes from pride and human reasoning.

The truth is that the same God who is the Father of Christ absolutely hates sin. The Israelites agreed to a legal contract with God as servants under The Law. They were treated as such, but in Christ we can become sons and daughters and are regarded as such.

God spared the entire world by choosing one nation Israel to demonstrate his righteousness to us all through the harshness of The Law. It was necessary to give us a picture of the nature of God. Perfectly loving and good, but also perfectly just and one who righteously hates and judges all sin without partiality. He is a perfect judge and always judges sin. This is why we are acquitted through Christ. It's not that God is unjust, but it's that we judge him through the bias of having been enslaved to sin? Is God unjust for punishing sin?

 

[TokiEl]

And finally, who was unrevealed before Jesus revealed Him? Is the logical conclusion not that you're mistaking His Father for a deity that had already been revealed many times prior to Christ's presence on Earth?

Is it hard to accept that Jesus Christ is God ?

 

[TokiEl]

Here is an imaginary dialogue between a muslim and Jesus Christ.


Muslim: You said your Father is greater than you.
JC: I am great too.

Muslim: But you're not God.
JC:: I am.

Muslim: But your Father is greater.
JC: Sure.

Muslim: So you're not God.
JC: I am but my Father is greater.

Muslim: Your Father is the greater God ?
JC: Listen I am the Logos of God and this is the Spirit of God. And We are One.

Muslim: I don't understand.
JC: That's okay you're just a human.

Muslim: Are you getting cheeky with me ?
JC: No I didn't mean to offend you.

Muslim: Are there pretty virgins up there ?
JC: I decide who enters here.

Muslim: Not your Father.
JC: No

Muslim: So what's the weather like there ?
JC: Believe in Me and follow My words... and you'll see how the weather is up here.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Is God unjust for punishing sin?

No. Chapter 4: the Good, the Bad & the Just talks about this tripartite distinction. The realm of Justice belongs to the demiurge. The punishment for sin is demiurgic in its essence, which is the point.

Are my arguments unsound? You haven't directly addressed them.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Is it hard to accept that Jesus Christ is God ?

No. Never claimed otherwise.

 

[Artful Revealer]

P.s. This (ex) Muslim lady’s experience of coming to faith is actually quite pertinent to the topic.

I dared to call Him “Father”

Chapter 5 (extract) “O Father, my Father . . . Father God.” Hesitantly, I spoke His name aloud. I tried different ways of speaking to Him. And then, as if something broke through for me I found myself trusting that He was indeed hearing me, just as my earthly father had always done. “Father, O...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

Good thing she started with Matthew, not Exodus.

 

[PeninsulaDweller]

Is there scientific evidence for the star of Bethlehem? - Catholic Straight Answers

Q: Is there any scientific evidence for the star mentioned in the Gospel, which guided the Three Kings to adore Baby Jesus, or is it just a literary image used to make a spiritual point? I have heard both sides. … Continued

catholicstraightanswers.com

Johannes Kepler (d. 1630), who wrote Laws of Planetary Motion, proposed that the conjunction of the planets Jupiter, Saturn and Mars caused a brilliant light (about 7 B.C.). Kepler had observed such a phenomenon in 1604, and calculated that this would have occurred at about the time of Christ’s birth. He posited that a supernova occurred simultaneously which would have caused an intense, brilliant light that lasted for weeks.

Konradin Ferrari d’Occhieppo in 2003 proposed that the star was the conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in the constellation Pisces in 7-6 B.C. He wrote, “Jupiter, the star of the highest Babylonian deity (Marduke), entered its brightest phase when it rose in the evening alongside Saturn, the cosmic representation of the Jewish people.” Commenting on this finding, Ferrari d’Occhieppo posited that astronomers in Babylon (an ancient center for astronomy) would have interpreted this phenomenon as a universally significant event, namely the birth of a king in the land of the Jews who would bring salvation.

Roger Sinnott using evidence from Bryant Tuckeman’s Planetary, Lunar, and Solar Positions, 601 B.C. to A.D. 1 (American Philosophical Society, 1979), presented a most interesting finding: In 3-2 B.C., three unusual planetary alignments (a triple conjunction) of the planets Jupiter and Venus with the star Regulus in the constellation Leo occurred. Interestingly, the splendor of this event would have climaxed Dec. 25, 2 B.C. Jupiter was named for Jupiter, the king of the Roman gods; Venus, named for Venus, the Roman goddess of love and motherhood; Regulus, a star that means “little king” and symbolizes a scepter; and Leo, the lion, the symbol for the tribe of Judah.

“Al cap dels sèt cent ans, verdejera lo laurel.“

After seven hundred years, the laurel will be green again. - 1309, Guilhèm Belibasta​

I am greatly surprised that someone here wrote something in Catalan.

 

[Artful Revealer]

I am greatly surprised that someone here wrote something in Catalan.

Not sure if it's Catalan exactly, but a close relative of the Occitan family nonetheless. But glad this forum was still able to positively surprise you