The Mother of All Causes: the Father of Lies

Aero

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As I've said, I don't follow your literal interpretations of the Bible. That's not to say your words are lost on me. And as a disclaimer I should probably say, I don't take Gnostic Jesus literally either. I'm not an apologist of any particular school of thought. I don't believe people should confine themselves to constant rationalization. If you know something to be true, than rationalization wouldn't even be in the thought process.

What do you all have to prove, is what I'm really wondering. And do you realize your proof is irrelevant. I've brought up my one Aunt before who is super into the Bible. When she talks to me about the Bible I want to tell her straight up, you are not a teacher. You are not my savior, and if you are you are doing a bad job. It's because she is consumed by the fear of her own rationale. Like she knows arguments from the bible aren't strong, or relevant in 2017.

I understand the concept of duality, but if the Bible is a book that ultimately spreads fear. Than it can be rejected and I have nothing to worry about. I am not impressed by the pseudo Christian culture people subscribe to. The world tells me these people are full of shit. They are afraid, and what advice does a scared person really offer?
 






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OK - specific example.

In the Book of Exodus, the background of the passage is that the Israelites have recently come out of Egypt after much persecution. From the time of Joseph' second in command position in Egypt ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+41:41-46&version=KJV) to the Israelites in slavery is thought to have been approximately 4 centuries. http://auburnseminary.org/exodus-really-started/

Obviously 4 centuries in a foreign nation with foreign gods is more than enough time for the Israelites to have learned about the Egyptian gods and customs, plus some starting to worship them etc.

Exodus goes into great detail about God calling Moses and later his brother Aaron to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. God has sent plagues and disasters on the Egyptians. He has parted the Red Sea for the entire Israelite population then kills the Pharaoh and Egyptians trying to bring them back into captivity.

Despite all the miracles, signs and wonders, perhaps hearing God Himself speaking the 10 commandments to Moses, despite keeping personal distance out of fear..... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20:18-21&version=KJV

.... when Moses is away too long for their liking they pressure Aaron into making a golden calf to worship, then do immoral acts and so on. They are already breaking God's command not to worship any graven image. See https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20:4&version=KJV, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+32&version=KJV

Because they have blatantly disobeyed God, He sends a plague on them. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/32-35.htm

Now after all that:
In New Testament - a direct reference showing the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT.

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Who is Lord? Jesus is Lord. Examples: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Jesus-Christ,-Lord

Revelation 1:8 [Jesus said] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

By ascribing actions made by God in the Old Testament to demiurges, demons, Satan, Lucifer and any other term or being Gnostics like to use to back up their many different viewpoints....

you are claiming that Jesus - who is God made Flesh -https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A5-11&version=KJV.... -

are those very things. That is incredible blasphemy which you will be greatly punished for if you do not repent.

P.S. See I did not have to use any other faith's perspective or writings to support the Christian position. If you seriously believe you believe in Jesus Christ then use God's Word and/or mainstream Christian writers to defend your faith.
Sorry for the delay. I'm just not a frequent visitor to these forums anymore.

I have nothing to say about Jude's reference to the LORD saving his people from Egypt. I doubt it's legitimate for the simple reason that it supports the thesis that the Father of Christ is the LORD of the OT. I can't argue why it is illegitimate or corrupt, which part is corrupted or who did it, none of that. If I could that would be great, but I will probably never know.

The thing is, your thesis that both gods from the NT and the OT are the same is generally implied in the Bible and by the religion and faithful who put their belief in that Bible. This thesis should be taken for granted when one decides to join the fold. It's thus not shocking to see bits in te scripture alluding or "proving" this to be true, since that's the purpose. It is however, unsettling to see bits in scripture that actually say the opposite of what we're told.

I'll give an example of Jude's people fleeing Egypt in to the desert, saved by their LORD:

Numbers 11:4-5: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a hunger: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely;

Numbers 21:4-6: And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Jesus, not Jude:

Matthew 7:9: What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10: Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11: If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


Another example of Jesus condemning the LORD of the OT. First, the OT:

1 Kings 18:37-40: Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God. And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

2 Kings:1:10: And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

The New Testament:

Luke 9:54-55: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But Jesus turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Revelation 13:13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. (Talking about the beast / deceiver)


What the Lord of the NT teaches here, is the exact opposite of how the LORD of the OT behaves. This is problematic for the position that defends the thesis that they are one and the same. A thesis' validity is based on its coherence. "But Jude says ..." So what. Maybe Jude was wrong. Or maybe the reference was inserted by Judaizers to stop Christians from believing the OT god is the beast / deceiver.
 






elsbet

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I was just digging about and found the book also had a website. As it addresses the issue of the Divine Council, the old gods, psyops etc etc I thought of you.

http://thegreatinception.com
Nice. Glad you posted this-- I went ahead and bought the book for the Kindle (how could I not?), as well.

You familiar with Michael Heiser? If we've discussed, forgive, but I'm curious what you think of him-- really, what you think of his material.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Nice. Glad you posted this-- I went ahead and bought the book for the Kindle (how could I not?), as well.

You familiar with Michael Heiser? If we've discussed, forgive, but I'm curious what you think of him-- really, what you think of his material.
I give him cautious approval, but really he's stepping out into realms that I can't reach with my imagination. Does that make sense?
 






JoChris

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Sorry for the delay. I'm just not a frequent visitor to these forums anymore.

I have nothing to say about Jude's reference to the LORD saving his people from Egypt. I doubt it's legitimate for the simple reason that it supports the thesis that the Father of Christ is the LORD of the OT. I can't argue why it is illegitimate or corrupt, which part is corrupted or who did it, none of that. If I could that would be great, but I will probably never know.

The thing is, your thesis that both gods from the NT and the OT are the same is generally implied in the Bible and by the religion and faithful who put their belief in that Bible. This thesis should be taken for granted when one decides to join the fold. It's thus not shocking to see bits in te scripture alluding or "proving" this to be true, since that's the purpose. It is however, unsettling to see bits in scripture that actually say the opposite of what we're told.

I'll give an example of Jude's people fleeing Egypt in to the desert, saved by their LORD:

Numbers 11:4-5: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a hunger: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely;

Numbers 21:4-6: And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Jesus, not Jude:

Matthew 7:9: What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10: Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11: If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


Another example of Jesus condemning the LORD of the OT. First, the OT:

1 Kings 18:37-40: Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God. And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

2 Kings:1:10: And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

The New Testament:

Luke 9:54-55: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But Jesus turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Revelation 13:13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. (Talking about the beast / deceiver)


What the Lord of the NT teaches here, is the exact opposite of how the LORD of the OT behaves. This is problematic for the position that defends the thesis that they are one and the same. A thesis' validity is based on its coherence. "But Jude says ..." So what. Maybe Jude was wrong. Or maybe the reference was inserted by Judaizers to stop Christians from believing the OT god is the beast / deceiver.
If you're willing to ignore bible verses which clearly contradict the Gnostic viewpoint then there is no point discussing the bible with you as if you're a Christian.
Revelation chapters 1-3 shows Jesus (who called Himself Alpha and Omega) is more than willing to bring condemnation upon churches who did not repent. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1-3&version=KJV
God is a God of mercy towards those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (and as a result repent of their sins), and a God of justice for those who do not.
Revelation chapters 21:8 shows the Jesus of the BIBLE declaring all those sinners described will be cast into hell. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=KJV
Very different to the Jesus of Marcion-like Gnostics.
True Christians will always remain with the Jesus of the Bible. The apostle John said who depart from the genuine Jesus (God of Old and New Testament) were never Christians to begin with. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2:19&version=KJV
 






Red Sky at Morning

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If you're willing to ignore bible verses which clearly contradict the Gnostic viewpoint then there is no point discussing the bible with you as if you're a Christian.
Revelation chapters 1-3 shows Jesus (who called Himself Alpha and Omega) is more than willing to bring condemnation upon churches who did not repent. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1-3&version=KJV
God is a God of mercy towards those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (and as a result repent of their sins), and a God of justice for those who do not.
Revelation chapters 21:8 shows the Jesus of the BIBLE declaring all those sinners described will be cast into hell. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=KJV
Very different to the Jesus of Marcion-like Gnostics.
True Christians will always remain with the Jesus of the Bible. The apostle John said who depart from the genuine Jesus (God of Old and New Testament) were never Christians to begin with. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2:19&version=KJV
In the end, we will each give account for ourselves... if someone wants to embrace Gnosticism etc, "their will be done", I guess!
 






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I've embraced Christianity, not Gnosticism. Gnosticism is a modern term devised to detach it from Christianity. For the sake of correctness, anyone holding on to the OT should be called Judeo-Christian while the Gospel "purists" should be called Christian. Jews don't hold on to the New Testament or be called Messianic Jews either.
 






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If you're willing to ignore bible verses which clearly contradict the Gnostic viewpoint then there is no point discussing the bible with you as if you're a Christian.
Revelation chapters 1-3 shows Jesus (who called Himself Alpha and Omega) is more than willing to bring condemnation upon churches who did not repent. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1-3&version=KJV
God is a God of mercy towards those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (and as a result repent of their sins), and a God of justice for those who do not.
Revelation chapters 21:8 shows the Jesus of the BIBLE declaring all those sinners described will be cast into hell. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=KJV
Very different to the Jesus of Marcion-like Gnostics.
True Christians will always remain with the Jesus of the Bible. The apostle John said who depart from the genuine Jesus (God of Old and New Testament) were never Christians to begin with. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2:19&version=KJV
I don't see a reply to my points. I only see you call me a pretender Christian when I believe Jesus is God, that He died for our sins and was raised. Didn't know believing the entire Bible, including the Book that doesn't mention Christ once, was a requirement to be considered a genuine Christian. It's apparently more appropriate to believe in the book that isn't about Christ nor written for Christians and discard dozens of gospels that praise our Lord.
 






elsbet

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I give him cautious approval, but really he's stepping out into realms that I can't reach with my imagination. Does that make sense?
It does make sense, yes. I tend to welcome that (venturing into strange realms), provided it's biblically sound material. There must be more. :) But if it doesn't line up with the bible, out it goes.

And I was also in the same boat of cautious approval, until I read his opinion (can't emphasize that enough) on Satan and the condition of Job, in Job 1. Tbh, my issue with him began when I went to his website and he was citing an atheist to prove a point. o_O. But maybe, I thought, it was a one-off, and I misunderstood. Now, I'm not so sure.

From his article (problematic statement in bold):

Basically, “the satan” in Job is an officer of the divine council (sort of like a prosecutor). His job is to “run to and fro throughout the earth” to see who is and who is not obeying Yahweh. When he finds someone who isn’t and is therefore under Yahweh’s wrath, he “accuses” that person. This is what we see in Job — *
and it actually has a distinct New Testament flavor. (We also see it in Zechariah 3). But the point here is that this satan is not evil; he’s doing his job. Over time (specifically the idea of “being an adversary in the heavenly council” was applied intellectually to the enemy of God — the nachash (typically rendered “serpent”) in Eden, the one who asserted his own will against Yahweh’s designs. That entity eventually becomes labeled “Satan” and so the adversarial role gets personified and stuck to God’s great enemy (also called the Devil). This is a good example of how an idea in Israelite religion plays out and is applied in different ways during the progress of revelation.


Of course that is NOT what we see in Job-- not at all. We know that Job "... hath been perfect and upright -- both fearing God, and turning aside from evil." So technically, the Accuser has no reason to be there, according to Heiser's theory. It rests on an extremely false interpretion.

And it is NOT like Zechariah 3, with Joshua's "filthy garments" being removed, when sin was present. So.. he's not biblically sound imo. I'm still curious about the divine council and such-- just not his version. Appreciate your opinion. :)

*Context and link in spoilers.
 






elsbet

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I give him cautious approval, but really he's stepping out into realms that I can't reach with my imagination. Does that make sense?
Disclaimer.. I hope that didn't come off as a rant aimed at you. I've been aching to get that out, especially to someone who was familiar (and also a bit leery). It's concerning to me, some of the people that are on board with him. He works for Logos software, I believe, and has *credentials* but they mean little in the grand scheme. Alas. :D

And yes, I just verified: Faithlife Corporation. smh
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I've embraced Christianity, not Gnosticism. Gnosticism is a modern term devised to detach it from Christianity. For the sake of correctness, anyone holding on to the OT should be called Judeo-Christian while the Gospel "purists" should be called Christian. Jews don't hold on to the New Testament or be called Messianic Jews either.
What do you make of the core meaning of Jesus's ministry?

2 Corinthians 5:19

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

Am I missing some key information here?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Disclaimer.. I hope that didn't come off as a rant aimed at you. I've been aching to get that out, especially to someone who was familiar (and also a bit leery). It's concerning to me, some of the people that are on board with him. He works for Logos software, I believe, and has *credentials* but they mean little in the grand scheme. Alas. :D

And yes, I just verified: Faithlife Corporation. smh
I like some of the ideas Mike draws out, perhaps the one big issue I have is that he is a scholar by profession and in some ways a bit of a line voice in the material he covers. As such he is at risk of going out too far on his own and accidentally breaking sound doctrine in order to make things FIT. I love to learn more about things, but I am aware that I don't know it all, and perhaps, as in the case of the seven thunders of Revelation, we are not told it all either!
 






Daciple

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I doubt it's legitimate for the simple reason that it supports the thesis that the Father of Christ is the LORD of the OT.
So let me get this right, the standard of your authenticity is, it supports my personal interpretation? Regardless if its been quoted, double quoted, triple quoted in the NT, if it is has never once been doubted by any Scholar, that its been quoted and spoken of by Christians in the 1st and early 2nd Century ect ect ect. The ONLY method you hold of legitimizing Scripture is it meshes with your own Personal made up Religion?

I hope everyone who reads this thread understands exactly what you are saying when you make this statement, its rather revealing as to whether or not one should accept YOUR personal opinion and made up Religion and viewpoint on ANYTHING mentioned in either the NT or the OT...

It is however, unsettling to see bits in scripture that actually say the opposite of what we're told.
Only those who remain willfully ignorant can even begin to see such nonsense in the Scripture, especially when they literally ignore the myriad of out right specific texts that all state explicitly that the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. It takes leaps and bounds of cognitive dissonance to try and see conflicting views as tho there are different Gods in any of the Scriptures and your proof text support that exact fact...

Numbers 11:4-5: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a hunger: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely;
So do you understand the Context of this passage man? The Context is that Israel had been taken out of Slavery and regardless of EVERYTHING God was doing and had done to Free them, and destroy their Enemies, and Feed them and give them Water, and promise to bring them into a land of Milk and Honey, all they did was complain. So they literally are complaining about how great their Captivity was. What do you believe is the central lesson that is to be seen and taught here? Do you believe it is the ridiculous notion that you wish to assert, that God is a tyrant, or is it that when we are Freed from our bondage, aka Sin and the World, we ought not to wish and desire for the things that brought us into bondage aka Sin and the World?

You also quickly gloss over this as you try and paint this False Picture of your God:

Numbers 11:18 And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the Lord, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the Lord will give you flesh, and ye shall eat.

What does God do? Does He immediately send serpents to harm them, or does He go above and beyond and give these stubborn ungrateful people exactly what they ask for, even tho He was literally sustaining them day in and day out with Manna from Heaven. You know what they were receiving there dont you? Jesus. These people were not happy with Jesus brother, who do you think is the Bread from Heaven?

John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

I mean you do realize that Jesus literally just said it wasnt Moses who gave them bread but it was Jesus Father who gave them Manna, and that Manna is HIM!!! This is why I cant take anything you say serious, almost every time you make these blasphemous references, within the text you quote, and the surrounding quotes, and topics, we see right quick that Jesus Himself asserts that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH is His Father. It takes a special kind of willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance to continue denying these things and continue to misquote text to support these false doctrines...

So first we see that God, YHWH, actually gave the Israelites Flesh even though they were not only ungrateful for everything He had and was doing for them, they yet again have the audacity to say I want to be under bondage again, and that is AFTER Jesus Christ Himself came down to them.. Then we see that when we have Jesus reference this exact Scripture, Jesus Himself literally says, it wasnt Moses who gave them Manna, it was MY FATHER who gave them Manna, so YHWH is Jesus Father, that is what Jesus declares. But will you accept this blatant admission by Christ as to who it is that is His Father, or will you continue to blaspheme the Father and call Him the Devil and mislead and lie to others so they call the Father of Jesus who is YHWH the Devil...

Numbers 21:4-6: And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Here we go again quoting out of Context and misleading people, lets take a look at the previous chapter and what happened right before this incident, and then look at what happened after that incident and then lets look at Jesus DIRECTLY quote this incident and see what He actually says about it all...

Num 20:1 Then came the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, into the desert of Zin in the first month: and the people abode in Kadesh; and Miriam died there, and was buried there.
2 And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.
3 And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the Lord!
4 And why have ye brought up the congregation of the Lord into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?

So prior to the incident you quote we see YET AGAIN, Israel complaining about what God is or isnt doing, and if you understand what was actually happening here, Israel was ready to KILL Moses and Aaron!!! Again let us remember that this is after God delievered them from Egypt, destroyed their Enemies, provided Water and Food and kept them safe this entire time. How does Israel react? They get mad and question God and literally try and riot against the Men of God the moment they arent getting their way. Do you think they are ungrateful Art? Do you think that they are tempting God? Do you think they are Faithless?

What happens next, does God smite them? Lets see:

Num 20:7 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink
.

What does God do for these ungrateful people? He gives them a miracle and produces Water from a Rock, and again who do you think this is Art? Since you cant seem to understand it, this again is JESUS, God brings Jesus to them!!!

1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Wait what is Paul declaring here? I mean you did chastise the Muslims a few months back about being Hypocritical in quoting and then rejecting the Word of God, and Paul in particular, so lets not reject what Paul says here now. So what did Paul say Art? Oh thats right, that JESUS was the Rock that followed the Israelities in the desert and it was JESUS that was the Water that came from the Rock, so again in context of the same verse you ignorantly quote we have Paul saying, well it wasnt the Devil doing that, it was JESUS Himself, why? Because YHWH is Jesus, YHWH is the Father, YHWH is the Son, YHWH is the One True God...

So not only did Israel complain and still get the Water, if you bother reading the rest of the passage, their ungratefulness resulted in the death of Aaron and Moses, but yeah lets ignore all of this Context as to why God finally after MANY times showing Grace bring wrath upon them... So after Aaron dies comes your text, so again we had just watched Israel complain about not getting water, and then due to their complaints Aaron dies, and now immediately after that incident, they are brought to the exact same situation, and what do they do? Praise God and pray to Him and thank Him for deliverance and knowing that He will provide again? No they do the same exact thing they have done over and over and over and over and over again, complain and rise up against Moses!!! Are you kidding me??

But hey again there is a Spiritual Lesson to be learned, about how we ourselves ARE Israel in the Flesh, and how we constantly are falling back into temptation and have Jesus deliver us, like He did Israel, and then when we are put back in the same situation we fall and rail against God. We do this over and over, because we are WORSE than Israel is, but Jesus keeps pouring down Grace and Mercy, but guess what, we better learn the lesson from Scripture so we dont have to live the lesson that Israel did. You can only tempt God so many times before He brings Judgment and when we see what Jesus says of this, we come to find that this Judgement is to lead us to Christ!!!

So then comes your quote, and what happens immediately after that?

Num 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Oh and lets not forget what Israel said themselves concerning this:

Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

What is that Art? The people admit they Sinned? They Sinned the EXACT same Sin they Sinned the prior Chapter, in which God instead of smiting them just sent Grace and Mercy and gave them water. This time He brings Judgement upon them for Sin, but what does He also do Art? He provides a way to LIVE even tho they have Sinned directly against God, all they had to do was look upon the raise serpent. and what does it say, ANY MAN who looked upon it LIVED. Why do you think anyone died Art? Was it because God is Evil and Vindictive? Are you so blind you dont understand what this Entire passage is about?

My friend what you call out for Evil, is actually a prime example of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everyone is Israel, we all have Sinned against God, and Gods Judgement is JUST. What do we deserve for our Sin? Even Paul tells you Sin equals Death, you and I both deserve DEATH for our Sins before God. Gods Judgement was against Sin and Sin brings Death, but God provided a way that EVEN THO Israel deserved Death, He gave them a way to NOT DIE and instead LIVE. Israel admitted they Sinned and then looked unto the one that was Raised for Life and ANY MAN that looked unto the one that was raised LIVED. Just as today we must admit we are Sinners before God and we deserve DEATH and Gods Righteous Judgement and then look unto the one He raised that we may have LIFE. What does Jesus say about this Art?

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

In case you dont grasp it, Jesus is declaring that HE is the one that Israel looked unto for Life in the Wilderness. I love when you quote Scripture brother, because even tho you misquote it and try and make it Evil, all that needs to be done is to put it in Context and we see that which you intend for Evil is actually all about Jesus!!! Each of the incidences you brought up here all literally are spoken of in the New Testament and all of them say it was Jesus that was with Israel, that Jesus Father gave the Manna, that Jesus is the Manna, and that Jesus is the one who Israel looked unto to live!!! Praise the Lord, reminds me of this Scripture:

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Amen, what people think and intend for Evil, God turns it unto good and now the Gospel has been preached, the Gospel to save much people alive!!!

Matthew 7:9: What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10: Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11: If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
As for this, well now that everything is in Context only the willfully ignorant and Spiritually deceived could possible link this to the other Scriptures that have been brought up, because again, Jesus said it was His Father that was providing Manna and the Water, and who did it over and over before Judgement of Sin was brought upon Israel...

Now for the next verses, even better lol I love it brother keep misquoting Scriptures so that Gods Glory may be revealed!!!

1 Kings 18:37-40: Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God. And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

2 Kings:1:10: And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
So lets get it straight you are condemning Elijah here correct? I mean you must be because he is the one that brought fire down from Heaven and destroyed the Prophets of Baal, with whom you are now sympathizing. Well what does Jesus think of Elijah?

Matt 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


So Jesus calls John the Baptist, Elijah, and speaks rather highly of him, interesting, and well do we ever see Jesus with Elijah? I mean there is NO WAY that Jesus would EVER be caught dead with the Prophet of YHWH who is Satan right!! Never!!!

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


Here is Jesus with Elijah speaking to him, and I find it funny that while He is there with Elijah the Father says Here is my Son with whom I am well pleased!! Clearly Elijah and the Father are linked along with Jesus and Moses, why? Because they all serve the same God.

As for the final ridiculous attempt of misquoting Scripture for Evil...

Luke 9:54-55: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But Jesus turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Revelation 13:13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
First off you again arent able to discern what was being rebuke by Jesus, it was that they desired to see them killed, however what does Jesus say in the next verse, which for some reason you didnt quote:

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

It also ought to be noted the prior text, you know this thing called Context, I know you hate it because your false doctrine never is able to stand when put back into Context:

Luke 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

So to put this in Context we see Jesus intended to go to a village in Samaria, when they didnt receive Jesus, the disciples thought that Jesus would kill them, why? Because at that time the Jews HATED the Samaritans thus it was in their heart to hurt the Samaritans, it has NOTHING to do with calling down fire, nor Elijah. It would be reticent of you to actually start studying the Bible itself instead of chopping it up to fit into your preconceived ideologies. The desire of these men were worlds apart from what happened with Elijah, which of course you didnt quote the whole incident. If one reads the Context of the incident in 2 Kings 1, we see that Elijah gives the king of Samaria the prophecy that he would die, and thus the king sends men to CAPTURE AND POSSIBLY KILL Elijah thus Elijah is calling down Fire to protect himself and once a man comes before him and basically says I am not going to harm you, God tells Elijah to go with them. Completely different that being upset that a village wont let Jesus come and then kill them all....

And of course you quote Revelations of the Beast but refuse to quote this, why? Because it outright shows how retarded your ideology is:

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

The 2 witness one of which is considered by many to be Elijah himself and what is he doing bringing fire, your linking to Elijah, whom Jesus dwells with, calls John Elijah and is one of the witness, to be a prophet of the beast is absurdity and shows how blind you are to the Truth. I hope one day you get Born Again so you can properly understand the Scriptures you twist and destroy, chopping them up to make them fit the narrative you wish to force them into...

What the Lord of the NT teaches here, is the exact opposite of how the LORD of the OT behaves. This is problematic for the position that defends the thesis that they are one and the same. A thesis' validity is based on its coherence. "But Jude says ..." So what. Maybe Jude was wrong. Or maybe the reference was inserted by Judaizers to stop Christians from believing the OT god is the beast / deceiver.
None of that is problematic, I systematically dismantled all of your ignorant false doctrine, simply by putting everything in Context. The real problematic positions are every single thing I just wrote because all of it shows how blind and willfully ignorant one must be to come to these conclusions and then DENY the very fact that Jesus says His Father gave the Manna, that Jesus says He IS the Manna, that Jesus IS the Rock, that Jesus was with Israel in the Wilderness guiding and doing everything that the Old Testament says YHWH is doing, that Jesus IS the serpent on the staff, that Jesus is with Elijah ect ect ect...

Jude wasnt wrong, no Judaizers did anything to Scriptures, the only one wrong here is you sir...
 






Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
Not to sound cocky, but Michael Heiser should read my article.
He should so he can completely destroy it, have you tired to send a link of it in a email? I have conversed with him before, maybe Ill show him your link and pray he responds. If I can show the holes in your ideologies I am sure he can comb through and show via historical and linguistics how absurd your ideology is. The main thing I would be worried about is for him to see how incorrect it is and not even bother wasting his time rebutting it, which I have seen him do...

Here contact him brother:

http://drmsh.com/contact-2/
 






Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,017
So let me get this right, the standard of your authenticity is, it supports my personal interpretation? Regardless if its been quoted, double quoted, triple quoted in the NT, if it is has never once been doubted by any Scholar, that its been quoted and spoken of by Christians in the 1st and early 2nd Century ect ect ect. The ONLY method you hold of legitimizing Scripture is it meshes with your own Personal made up Religion?

I hope everyone who reads this thread understands exactly what you are saying when you make this statement, its rather revealing as to whether or not one should accept YOUR personal opinion and made up Religion and viewpoint on ANYTHING mentioned in either the NT or the OT...
Jesus Dac. I even admitted that I don't have an answer and explained why I don't need one and you still get upset. The Bible is the reference for the thesis that the NT God and OT God are the same. If the thesis is to be valid, the thesis cannot contradict itself. And as I've shown it does. It's however, not up to me to provide answers to every line in the Gospel which is in agreement with the OT. The responsibility of non-contradiction lies with the Bible and those who defend aforementioned thesis.

Numbers 11:4-5: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a hunger: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely;
So do you understand the Context of this passage man? The Context is that Israel had been taken out of Slavery and regardless of EVERYTHING God was doing and had done to Free them, and destroy their Enemies, and Feed them and give them Water, and promise to bring them into a land of Milk and Honey, all they did was complain. So they literally are complaining about how great their Captivity was. What do you believe is the central lesson that is to be seen and taught here? Do you believe it is the ridiculous notion that you wish to assert, that God is a tyrant, or is it that when we are Freed from our bondage, aka Sin and the World, we ought not to wish and desire for the things that brought us into bondage aka Sin and the World?

You also quickly gloss over this as you try and paint this False Picture of your God:

Numbers 11:18 And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the Lord, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the Lord will give you flesh, and ye shall eat.

What does God do? Does He immediately send serpents to harm them, or does He go above and beyond and give these stubborn ungrateful people exactly what they ask for, even tho He was literally sustaining them day in and day out with Manna from Heaven. You know what they were receiving there dont you? Jesus. These people were not happy with Jesus brother, who do you think is the Bread from Heaven?
What did that god do after Numbers 11:18? Is that your question? This is what he did:

Numbers 11:31. And a wind going out from the Lord, taking quails up beyond the sea brought them, and cast them into the camp for the space of one day’s journey, on every side of the camp round about, and they flew in the air two cubits high above the ground.

11:32. The people therefore rising up all that day, and night, and the next day, gathered together of quails, he that did least, ten cores: and they dried them round about the camp.

11:33. As yet the flesh was between their teeth, neither had that kind of meat failed: when behold the wrath of the Lord being provoked against the people, struck them with an exceeding great plague.

11:34. And that place was called, The graves of lust: for there they buried the people that had lusted.


He killed his subjects with a plague before they could even swallow.

Juxtapose that one against what Jesus did:

Matthew 14:15. And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying: This is a desert place, and the hour is now passed: send away the multitudes, that going into the towns, they may buy themselves victuals.

14:16. But Jesus said to them, They have no need to go: give you them to eat.

14:17. They answered him: We have not here, but five loaves, and two fishes.

14:18. Who said to them: Bring them hither to me.

14:19. And when he had commanded the multitude to sit down upon the grass, he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitudes.

14:20. And they did all eat, and were filled. And they took up what remained, twelve full baskets of fragments.

14:21. And the number of them that did eat, was five thousand men, besides women and children.


And why should I even mirror anything to Jesus. Are the actions of Moses' desert god not bad enough without having to compare them to the perfect man / real God? A supposedly all-powerful being killing his own subjects who have dragged along behind him in the desert for 40 years, because they complained of hunger they didn't have before in Egypt?

You're entire effing post is about how I put things out of context, misquote scripture, fit scripture to support my bias, yadda yadda, man I've never even had a girlfriend who whined like that. Let's check that misquoted put-out-of-context scripture then:
John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

I mean you do realize that Jesus literally just said it wasnt Moses who gave them bread but it was Jesus Father who gave them Manna, and that Manna is HIM!!! This is why I cant take anything you say serious, almost every time you make these blasphemous references, within the text you quote, and the surrounding quotes, and topics, we see right quick that Jesus Himself asserts that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH is His Father. It takes a special kind of willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance to continue denying these things and continue to misquote text to support these false doctrines...
We're gonna read the scripture you've provided together, attentively please, and find out who's misrepresenting it:

Jesus said: "Verily, Verily, I say unto you ..." So far so good, still on the same wave length, I hope? "Moses gave ..." Very important here is the past tense. Well, use of past tense is obvious, but it becomes extremely relevant because of what you should focus on later. Here we go. "Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;" Very interesting. Jesus said the manna they were given by Moses was not from Heaven, even though "God" was with them. "but my Father..." Jesus says "my Father", he doesn't say God just yet to make it clear He's talking about His Father. "but my Father giveth ..." Present tense, not past tense! " ... you the true bread from heaven." Jesus explicitly says that Moses did not (past tense!) give them the bread of heaven. He also explicitly says that His Father is giving them (present tense!) the true bread from Heaven. Nowhere does Jesus say it was His Father who gave them bread in the desert with Moses. Nowhere. You're reading that into it. Next part:

"For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world."

It can't get any clearer than this. The true bread of God (He says God now, to make it clear His Father is God) is not what Moses gave in the desert, it is Himself. The only logical conclusion here is that the manna Moses or his desert god gave was not Jesus.


So first we see that God, YHWH, actually gave the Israelites Flesh even though they were not only ungrateful for everything He had and was doing for them
Flesh that gave his people the plague before they could even enjoy their meal and killed them.

they yet again have the audacity to say I want to be under bondage again, and that is AFTER Jesus Christ Himself came down to them..
Jesus Christ did not come down, because Jesus explicitly says He is the bread from Heaven and that neither Moses or his desert god gave the bread from heaven.

Then we see that when we have Jesus reference this exact Scripture, Jesus Himself literally says, it wasnt Moses who gave them Manna, it was MY FATHER who gave them Manna
The scripture clearly says the opposite of what you say it says and that's how we end up with good Christians ...
so YHWH is Jesus Father
... following the Devil. All your mumbo jumbo about Jesus being the manna, Jesus feeding the people in the desert, supporting them like a rock, etc it's just not true!

It is you who are not reading scripture the way you're supposed to.

So prior to the incident you quote we see YET AGAIN, Israel complaining about what God is or isnt doing, and if you understand what was actually happening here, Israel was ready to KILL Moses and Aaron!!! Again let us remember that this is after God delievered them from Egypt, destroyed their Enemies, provided Water and Food and kept them safe this entire time. How does Israel react? They get mad and question God and literally try and riot against the Men of God the moment they arent getting their way. Do you think they are ungrateful Art? Do you think that they are tempting God? Do you think they are Faithless?
You're not making sense. These people were starving as they were led into the desert for 40 years. It's easy to side with the account of Jahwists and people who believe in Moses against the people that bloody died in the desert. Might as well believe the writings of Pol Pot groupies saying the Cambodjans had it coming. Ridiculous!

Let's go to the brazen serpent for brevity's sake, because Paul's words can be relativised in context of his proselytism.

So then comes your quote, and what happens immediately after that?

Num 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Here we clearly see Moses' god commanding his prophet to make a fiery serpent and that the people who worship it shall live.

Let's go to Revelation's account of the deceiver / beast:

13:13. And he did great signs, so that he made also fire to come down from heaven unto the earth, in the sight of men.
(We already know who that is)

13:14. And he seduced them that dwell on the earth, for the signs which were given him to do in the sight of the beast: saying to them that dwell on the earth that they should make the image of the beast which had the wound by the sword and lived.

The image of the beast, would that look something like a serpent? Something like this:



Are we seeing the people of Moses bending the knee to an image of the serpent / beast and if they didn't do it they would die? Did you really say that this serpent is Jesus? Am I really reading this about my beloved Christ? Somebody pinch me.

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
What does this say other than belief in the Son of Man will grant eternal life, while belief in Moses' serpent was required to not die on the spot? Can the difference not be greater?

He provides a way to LIVE even tho they have Sinned directly against God, all they had to do was look upon the raise serpent. and what does it say, ANY MAN who looked upon it LIVED. Why do you think anyone died Art? Was it because God is Evil and Vindictive? Are you so blind you dont understand what this Entire passage is about?
What an angel. Angel of death perhaps. Tricking his own subjects into submission of the serpent. Was it because that god is evil and vindictive? Why yes, that's exactly what it is. Ockham's razor. In fact, it's outright sadistic, instilling people with a disease and then demanding worship to be healed from that disease. This is one the very distinguishing traits of Satan in all old mythologies!

My friend what you call out for Evil, is actually a prime example of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everyone is Israel,
Tell that to the Israelites.

we all have Sinned against God, and Gods Judgement is JUST.
And I dedicate a whole chapter to the dimension of Justice and what place it has in the greater moral scheme. Justice is a coverup for good and evil, arbitrarily devised by a lawmaker, not inherently universal and transcendent. Only Good is, but for that you need knowledge of good and evil, which the "god of Justice" prohibited Man to attain, so Man would follow his law.

In case you dont grasp it, Jesus is declaring that HE is the one that Israel looked unto for Life in the Wilderness. I love when you quote Scripture brother, because even tho you misquote it and try and make it Evil, all that needs to be done is to put it in Context and we see that which you intend for Evil is actually all about Jesus!!!
The fact that you and millions of others believe that is exactly the reason why Christianity is in such a bad shape and a tragedy I'm trying to undo.

So lets get it straight you are condemning Elijah here correct? I mean you must be because he is the one that brought fire down from Heaven and destroyed the Prophets of Baal, with whom you are now sympathizing. Well what does Jesus think of Elijah?

...

Here is Jesus with Elijah speaking to him, and I find it funny that while He is there with Elijah the Father says Here is my Son with whom I am well pleased!! Clearly Elijah and the Father are linked along with Jesus and Moses, why? Because they all serve the same God.
So? Maybe Elias was an actual prophet, but different than the Elias we know from the OT. Maybe he didn't call fire from heaven. Maybe he didn't send she-bears to tear up 42 children just because they mocked him. Maybe those tales of Elias are manufactured by the scribes and Pharisees to instil fear in their subjects; and the OT version you have in your possession is with 100% certainty a Pharisaic product, don't even doubt that fact.

Maybe there's a hidden meaning in that passage of Matthew. Peter suggests to make 3 tabernacles, but the Father from heaven says "listen to Jesus, in him I am well pleased". What does that mean? Listen to Jesus and not to Moses or Elias? No tabernacles for Moses and Elias? When the disciples throw their face down to the ground and look back up, they only see Jesus. Moses and Elias are gone.

They ask him when Elias will come. But Jesus said Elias already had come but they knew him not, referring to John the Baptist.

There are so many mysteries here that neither you or me can provide a definite answer to, and not in the least will we find the answer in that book that has been tampered with by the very people Jesus warned about; the hypocrites and liars, scribes and Pharisees, descendants of Cain himself.


First off you again arent able to discern what was being rebuke by Jesus, it was that they desired to see them killed, however what does Jesus say in the next verse, which for some reason you didnt quote:

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Dac, you're not thinking clearly. Isn't this verse in exact opposition to the actions of God in the OT? Jesus is not come to destroy lives. The god of Elias destroyed lives. Your reasoning: former God, latter God = same God, while their actions / behaviour could not be more contradictory.

You complain I'm chopping up the Bible to fit my view, but the problem is that my view would stop being coherent if I adopt everything the Bible says. Just see the effects of complete subordination to biblical literalism on your moral code. You would follow a genocidal narcissist if only you believed he was god while you should be rejecting that self-proclaimed god on the basis of being a genocidal narcissist.

It also ought to be noted the prior text, you know this thing called Context, I know you hate it because your false doctrine never is able to stand when put back into Context:

Luke 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

So to put this in Context we see Jesus intended to go to a village in Samaria, when they didnt receive Jesus, the disciples thought that Jesus would kill them, why? Because at that time the Jews HATED the Samaritans thus it was in their heart to hurt the Samaritans, it has NOTHING to do with calling down fire, nor Elijah. It would be reticent of you to actually start studying the Bible itself instead of chopping it up to fit into your preconceived ideologies. The desire of these men were worlds apart from what happened with Elijah, which of course you didnt quote the whole incident. If one reads the Context of the incident in 2 Kings 1, we see that Elijah gives the king of Samaria the prophecy that he would die, and thus the king sends men to CAPTURE AND POSSIBLY KILL Elijah thus Elijah is calling down Fire to protect himself and once a man comes before him and basically says I am not going to harm you, God tells Elijah to go with them. Completely different that being upset that a village wont let Jesus come and then kill them all....
It's unbelievable the apologetics you will go to to defend a being killing hundreds of men to prove he is God. Amazing. I can't add anything here because you're not being rational at all. Jesus rebukes his disciples for being of the wrong spirit, while all they were thinking was the same thing Elias and his god actually did, but Elias or his god was not of the wrong spirit? You're making an utter joke of Jesus to insinuate He would apply double standards like that. Shame on you.

None of that is problematic, I systematically dismantled all of your ignorant false doctrine, simply by putting everything in Context. The real problematic positions are every single thing I just wrote because all of it shows how blind and willfully ignorant one must be to come to these conclusions and then DENY the very fact that Jesus says His Father gave the Manna, that Jesus says He IS the Manna, that Jesus IS the Rock, that Jesus was with Israel in the Wilderness guiding and doing everything that the Old Testament says YHWH is doing, that Jesus IS the serpent on the staff, that Jesus is with Elijah ect ect ect...
Seems like you made the problem worse, cause everything you say about Jesus being the manna, etc, simply isn't true. Still not convinced? Scroll back up and read the verses as often as you need.

And keep your posts succinct and respectful next time, if you want to get any reply at all.
 






Last edited:
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
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4,017
He should so he can completely destroy it, have you tired to send a link of it in a email? I have conversed with him before, maybe Ill show him your link and pray he responds. If I can show the holes in your ideologies I am sure he can comb through and show via historical and linguistics how absurd your ideology is. The main thing I would be worried about is for him to see how incorrect it is and not even bother wasting his time rebutting it, which I have seen him do...

Here contact him brother:

http://drmsh.com/contact-2/
Since you've conversed with him before, feel free to send him this forum link. I'm completely open-minded for any criticism, provided it's given in good faith and well-sourced. I wouldn't be able to debate him, cause I'm not a scholar and I don't have the same sources at my disposal as he has. Regardless, his theory is lacking and if anything maybe this article will fill in the blanks he hadn't noticed before.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
@Artful Revealer

You state "The Bible is the reference for the thesis that the NT God and OT God are the same. If the thesis is to be valid, the thesis cannot contradict itself. "

Do be believe that the thesis that "the God of the OT is different from the God of the NT" to be a less contradictory position, leading to a better understanding of scripture?
 






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