The “Standard Islamic Narrative” and the Challenge of the Coins

Red Sky at Morning

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I have had a number of conversations on this forum with people challenging the mainstream account of Christianity, whether it be from those suggesting a late writing of the Gospels or from those preferring a Gnostic beginning account, with an evolving Christology. I have enjoyed these discussions and it actually encouraged me to look into these issues, especially the textual evidence.


By the same token, with Islam, the “Standard Narrative” deserves cross examination, if only to refute counter-claims. I found these recent discussions on the history recorded in the coins of the 7th century illuminating.



And

 






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Daze

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Imagine me constantly making threads about Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism. Why would i when I'm a Muslim?
Yet you a Christian seem to be fascinated with Islam. At least with attacking it.

Think I'll pass on the videos, I'm pretty sure that one thumbnail is Jay Smith whose has nothing but negativity when it comes to Islam.

Have you seen this one, with your 2 faced preacher?

Why do your "men of truth" say whatever is convenient for them Zionist Red? I mean truth and facts be damned, right? No money in that.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Imagine me constantly making threads about Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism. Why would i when I'm a Muslim?
Yet you a Christian seem to be fascinated with Islam. At least with attacking it.

Think I'll pass on the videos, I'm pretty sure that one thumbnail is Jay Smith whose has nothing but negativity when it comes to Islam.

Have you seen this one, with your 2 faced preacher?

Why do your "men of truth" say whatever is convenient for them Zionist Red? I mean truth and facts be damned, right? No money in that.
This was the kind of response I was expecting @Daze

Jay Smith doesn’t like Islam any more than Bart Ehrnan likes Christianity, but the niceness of the source should have no bearing on the topics of discussion, otherwise debate becomes reduced to identity politics.

When @Kung Fu challenged me over the preservation of the Biblical text and suggested that it had been modified by scribal interpolations at later points, I looked into the question and I never made it personal, employed tired genetic fallacies etc etc.


Truth has nothing to fear from cross examination.

The evidence of the coins indicates that Islam had at least a beginning in a “Kingdom Now” variation of Christianity, which appears to have ran away with itself and sidelined Jesus along the way.

I put up my sources for cross examination (for those who want to engage in the question).
 






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DesertRose

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Truth has nothing to fear from cross examination.
Our truth is that the Creator is Unique and has no second, or third or rival and that He has given guidance to us throughout the centuries through men called Prophets peace be upon all of them. One message many Prophets.
Say, ‘We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we devote ourselves to Him.Quran 2:136

This topic is of zero concern to us and we are not familiar with it. Moreover, it has no bearing on our belief system.
Just remember that we are not here to throw rocks at every dog that barks in our direction our caravan moves on regardless of its detractors.
Regarding this topic although, brother Shabir Ally from let the Quran speak addressed this, a.non Muslim orientalist responded to it in an essay, below is part of what he wrote.

Weird Islamic Coins Prove Nothing
by Allan Ruhl

"I’m very careful about the arguments that I use when dealing with Islam or any other religion. There are arguments out there that will stump the average Muslim, but when used on a Muslim who knows their faith will be shredded. Enter Jay Smith’s coin argument.
A few years ago when Robert Spencer came out with his book Did Muhammad Exist, I read about this and I was very impressed. I’m not impressed anymore. Every time I hear an argument I always ask myself: What does this actually prove? How much does it actually prove?

When the Muslims invaded Byzantine and Persian lands, they used their coin template instead of minting something uniquely Islamic. In the old Byzantine lands, they used the Byzantine coins with a few cosmetic changes to let them know it was Arab and not Byzantine. In the Persian lands they did the same thing but with Persian coins.

Let’s think about this for a second. You’re a Byzantine citizen and your city has fallen under Arab occupation. Who knows how long these people will stay? Maybe the Byzantines will smash them back in a few months and take back the city? Can you imagine using completely new coins? Keep in mind, the old Byzantine coins are still in circulation. Can you imagine looking in your coin pouch and seeing Byzantine coins and completely different coins? It would be normal to have a pouch of coins that look relatively alike. It would be weird to have two completely different coin sets.

Also, from the Muslim perspective, the land being ruled over is 99% non-Islamic at this point. The last thing you want is unrest from a population over something as minor as coins. Especially when these rulers have other projects in mind such as further expansion.

Also, why does currency have to have creedal statements on it? When I look at the coins in my pocket I see a picture on one side and the monarch on the other. This coin doesn’t give the constitution, government system, or majority religion of my country. It doesn’t have to. That information is available elsewhere. Come to think of it, with the exception of American coins I can’t tell you what is on the coins of any country I’ve visited. When I’m in a new country and want to learn the local customs I don’t look at the coins in my pocket. I’ll either ask around or go to a museum. The purpose of coins is to exchange them for goods and services, not to preach. You can certainly preach on coins, and the Muslims later on did as Smith points out, but you don’t have to.

Also, I find this no different than when a liberal Biblical scholar reads a passage of scripture tries to get into the head the author and determine what his agenda was when he wrote this. We’ll never know because the people who wrote the Bible are long dead. The same is true for the people who minted the coins."
 






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recure

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Imagine me constantly making threads about Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism. Why would i when I'm a Muslim?
Yet you a Christian seem to be fascinated with Islam. At least with attacking it.
Says the delusional hypocrite who creates a thread on Easter about how it is supposedly a pagan holiday. Islam is being subjected to the historical critical method and most serious inquirers are realizing that the so-called "Standard Islamic Narrative" is a concoction of dubious mythologies and legends; and Islamic apologists can't face up to the scrutiny, hence why they employ such conniving tactics that seek to deflect and obfuscate instead of address the evidence, just as you have done.
 






Nikōn

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I can't help but feel that this Odon guy is a secret Muslim, as if he is trying to create doubts in Christians. Look at these slides, it seems very pro-Islam to me:



He does realize that all names are meanings, right? (aka that Joshua means "YHWH is salvation", Ezekiel means "God's strength", Moses means "To Draw/Pull Out" etc)

Odon references Matthew 21:9, which in context reads:
And the crowds that went before him and that followed him shouted, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” And when he entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, “Who is this?” And the crowds said, “This is the prophet Jesus from Nazareth of Galilee.”

And he said, “Truly, I say to you, no prophet is acceptable in his own country.

(Luke 4:24)



Also the connection he makes between the Book of Daniel (which features Gabriel) and Islam (which features Gabriel again revealing their scripture), what is Odon's true motives here?
The above slide shows that he is clearly trying to establish continuity between Christianity and Islam, isn't that curious from a supposed polemicist?



This too is very curious, seeing that he is, on one hand stating that Muhammad was false (and maybe was a later fiction) while claiming that he, and the Caliphates, where fulfilments of Biblical typologies.

Another interesting thing is that he reuses arguments that used to be made about the historical Jesus as an eschatological messianic preacher, and then shifted it onto Muhammad (one way or another), when in Christianity itself the notion of Millennialism became predominant to the same thing. I find it really weird the kinds of arguments that Odon is making, especially if he is a Christian.
That last line too "Muhammad's religion is actually Jesus' religion" is really bizarre considering the same polemicists (like Jay Smith etc) also claim at the same time that Islam has nothing to do with Christianity and is an entirely foreign, unrelated "Pagan" (even though it originated as Semitic, like Judaism) religion.
I think there is a lot of reason for me to be skeptical by the contents provided.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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I can't help but feel that this Odon guy is a secret Muslim, as if he is trying to create doubts in Christians. Look at these slides, it seems very pro-Islam to me:



He does realize that all names are meanings, right? (aka that Joshua means "YHWH is salvation", Ezekiel means "God's strength", Moses means "To Draw/Pull Out" etc)

Odon references Matthew 21:9, which in context reads:
And the crowds that went before him and that followed him shouted, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” And when he entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, “Who is this?” And the crowds said, “This is the prophet Jesus from Nazareth of Galilee.”

And he said, “Truly, I say to you, no prophet is acceptable in his own country.

(Luke 4:24)



Also the connection he makes between the Book of Daniel (which features Gabriel) and Islam (which features Gabriel again revealing their scripture), what is Odon's true motives here?
The above slide shows that he is clearly trying to establish continuity between Christianity and Islam, isn't that curious from a supposed polemicist?



This too is very curious, seeing that he is, on one hand stating that Muhammad was false (and maybe was a later fiction) while claiming that he, and the Caliphates, where fulfilments of Biblical typologies.

Another interesting thing is that he reuses arguments that used to be made about the historical Jesus as an eschatological messianic preacher, and then shifted it onto Muhammad (one way or another), when in Christianity itself the notion of Millennialism became predominant to the same thing. I find it really weird the kinds of arguments that Odon is making, especially if he is a Christian.
That last line too "Muhammad's religion is actually Jesus' religion" is really bizarre considering the same polemicists (like Jay Smith etc) also claim at the same time that Islam has nothing to do with Christianity and is an entirely foreign, unrelated "Pagan" (even though it originated as Semitic, like Judaism) religion.
I think there is a lot of reason for me to be skeptical by the contents provided.
I noticed some of these elements but took a very different interpretation (as you might imagine).

The wider context is that I’m studying through an epic series on “The Coming Kingdom” by Andy Woods and reflecting on people I have interacted with and the perspectives they have shared.


Anyone one who believes in one God (and who believes this world is not as it should be) will have asked a question similar to the disciples at the beginning of the Book of Acts -“Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

I really get the enthusiasm for the kingdom but Jesus asks something of us instead…

7And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Interestingly, no mention of the Kingdom to the disciples who were commissioned to share the Gospel.

The earth living under the rule of God, with Satan bound will only happen when the right time is reached….

FCF84FDB-0ECC-4C2F-A75C-34590DDFDEDD.jpeg

And here’s where it started to get interesting for me. I don’t believe we are at that point yet, and I don’t think it will arrive till Jesus returns and the rulership of this world passes from Satan to Jesus. It’s as plain as day to me that this is the only way things will truly change…

…but it’s not the view of most of the world!

If you ask an Orthodox Jew why they reject Jesus as the messiah, he might tell you that their is no shalom (peace) in the world, so the messiah must not yet have come. When the Kingdom comes, it will be a now thing, which is why Zionism as interpreted by Israeli Jews right now can develop some very odd ideas about God’s stamp of approval on them, and how they are setting themselves up for deception by a coming earthly messiah figure.

Catholicism is also a “Kingdom Now” faith, beginning perhaps the rise of the “Holy Roman Empire”, the delay in the return of the Lord and with the Amillennialism set out in Augustine’s “City of God”.

What I didn’t know was the degree to which Islam itself may have had its origins in a Kingdom Now sentiment (which the videos unpack really well).

Why am I saying this?

I am frequently polemicised as a Israel-loving Zionist shill who approves of every action of the IDF and just loves the Israeli government. I don’t reply to that sort of thing simply because it is not the position I hold.

I don’t think God has finished with Israel as far as His plans for the earth are concerned, but neither do I think their return to their ancient homeland is a stamp of approval on their spiritual state or actions. It is an appointment.

Neither do I think God has finished with Muslims. I think the later verses of Isaiah 42 indicate that the inhabitants of Selah will rejoice at the return of the Lord, meaning they will have a change of heart as to the identity of Jesus (who died for them too).

Whilst I have a natural sympathy for the Jews as they have the same root and accept the OT, I acknowledge the heart of Muslims wanting to do what they can to please God and do the things He wants them to do.

On the other hand, I can see that Catholicism (along with modern Christian Dominionism) Judaism and Islam are all “Kingdom Now” faiths, I believe they are in error about the nature of the Kingdom that only Jesus will establish on His return.
 






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TrollingTroubles

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Imagine me constantly making threads about Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism. Why would i when I'm a Muslim?
Yet you a Christian seem to be fascinated with Islam. At least with attacking it.
I think Christians have an inferiority complex. If they were happy, they’d just leave others be. Gods will be done and all that, ya get me?!?

Jay Smith…
… is an asshole.
 






TrollingTroubles

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Says the delusional hypocrite who creates a thread on Easter about how it is supposedly a pagan holiday. Islam is being subjected to the historical critical method and most serious inquirers are realizing that the so-called "Standard Islamic Narrative" is a concoction of dubious mythologies and legends; and Islamic apologists can't face up to the scrutiny, hence why they employ such conniving tactics that seek to deflect and obfuscate instead of address the evidence, just as you have done.
so many straw men in one post! Wow dude.

I’ve been studying Islam for a while now, and I have to say if there was a religion which is true - Islam - would be the best candidate. This, coming from someone who generally doesn’t like organised religion, and only got into the study of Islam to prove that it is false. Hubris.

Everytime I post on this forum, I feel like I’m “selling Islam” to myself. And the crazy part is that I’m also buying. Coz I can’t bloody fault it.

Tell you what tho Recure, keep your straw men away from matches. You do you. Inadvertently, you’re just serving to make me hate all other organised religions and start to love Islam more.

Now you tell me, how beautifully fucked is that?
 






Daze

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I think Christians have an inferiority complex. If they were happy, they’d just leave others be. Gods will be done and all that, ya get me?!?
I have to agree with this. If Trinnys were not bothered by Islam they would not be trying so hard to bring it down. I mean Red never makes threads on Hinduism or Buddhism (to my knowledge at least)


Simply put... Trinnys claim to worship the 1 God of Abraham, but have to assign him 3 different names and 3 different personalities.

While Muslims make the same claim, the Islamic God is more easily defined.

Say he is God, who is one
The Eternal refuge
He neither begets nor is born.
There is nothing like him. (112 : 1-4 Quran)


Now if you compare this to the triune god in Christianity...

trinity.jpg

...There is much to be left wanting for..

This is most likely the reason trinny's make so many attacks on Islam. It is a thorn in their side they can't ignore.

We both claim the same God, but 1+1+1... does not equal 1.


End of the day there is only one Creator, alone, without partners. (nor does he have multiple personalities while the Bible constantly depicts Jesus's will being different from God's)

Looking forward to Red's next thread because this is what he does. Some people enjoy spitting at the moon.
 






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TrollingTroubles

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I was looking into the “fitra” principle in Islam and have to conclude that the trinity is definitely not a part of the fitra. The first principle of any belief has to be “natural” and “innate” and not a concoction of disturbed theological premises which are full of contradictions and logical fallacies, and worse - appeals to emotion.
 






Daze

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I was looking into the “fitra” principle in Islam and have to conclude that the trinity is definitely not a part of the fitra. The first principle of any belief has to be “natural” and “innate” and not a concoction of disturbed theological premises which are full of contradictions and logical fallacies, and worse - appeals to emotion.
Yes, the fitra (belief at birth / natural state) is to believe in one God. Actually everyone of us testified there was no god but God before we came here. When we enter consciousness in this life, that belief is already present. Every small child believes in God as it is natural for them. It is the parents / schools / tv that alters the child's innate beliefs.

A triune god is not intuitive. I've shown before how more then a few religions involved triune gods around the time / area of early Christianity. It is also common knowledge the early church entertained pagan beliefs as a way to get new converts. You can start by looking at Easter if you need proof of this. Christmas also is full of paganism as the days surrounding Dec the 25th is literally the birth of the Sun, not son.

Officially around 300AD the council of Nicaea decided that the Prophet Jesus was god incarnate. This was when they lost the plot officially.

Today its obvious the church has been infiltrated and Jesus's message is largely lost amongst the Christians. But it is key for the anti-christ. Who will claim to be prophet, then god incarnate.. while over a billion Christians already believe man can actually become God.


The only way to find God is to turn to him alone, without partners and ask him and him alone for the truth. But so many have to have intermediaries whether they be priests or prophets, sticks or stones. I've suggested to others they should put their heads on the ground, pray as Jesus prayed. I've been told this suggestion is deceptive.. so what do you do with that? Either God guides you or satan does. there is no inbetween.
 






TrollingTroubles

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Yes, the fitra (belief at birth / natural state) is to believe in one God. Actually everyone of us testified there was no god but God before we came here. When we enter consciousness in this life, that belief is already present. Every small child believes in God as it is natural for them. It is the parents / schools / tv that alters the child's innate beliefs.

A triune god is not intuitive. I've shown before how more then a few religions involved triune gods around the time / area of early Christianity. It is also common knowledge the early church entertained pagan beliefs as a way to get new converts. You can start by looking at Easter if you need proof of this. Christmas also is full of paganism as the days surrounding Dec the 25th is literally the birth of the Sun, not son.

Officially around 300AD the council of Nicaea decided that the Prophet Jesus was god incarnate. This was when they lost the plot officially.

Today its obvious the church has been infiltrated and Jesus's message is largely lost amongst the Christians. But it is key for the anti-christ. Who will claim to be prophet, then god incarnate.. while over a billion Christians already believe man can actually become God.


The only way to find God is to turn to him alone, without partners and ask him and him alone for the truth. But so many have to have intermediaries whether they be priests or prophets, sticks or stones. I've suggested to others they should put their heads on the ground, pray as Jesus prayed. I've been told this suggestion is deceptive.. so what do you do with that? Either God guides you or satan does. there is no inbetween.
mom aware of the canonisation process of the New Testament and this is why I do not believe it to be a preserved word of God, but merely the words of men.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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mom aware of the canonisation process of the New Testament and this is why I do not believe it to be a preserved word of God, but merely the words of men.
How do you account for the mathematical elements built into the Bible that the authors couldn’t have known about?

I touch on a few of these in this thread:

 






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Daze

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mom aware of the canonisation process of the New Testament and this is why I do not believe it to be a preserved word of God, but merely the words of men.
Clearly it is not preserved. You don't have to go past the Bible condemning interest but making it permissible for the Jews.

I assume you know Ahmad Deedat? He absolutely destroyed the Bible. Even showing "twin" Bibles that had different verses once the covers were opened.


Every few years the church changes the Bible. For example recently Yahweh was replaced with Lord because the Jews don't think you should speak Gods name.

Only a fool will argue that the Bible is preserved.
 






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XTIANS: MECCA WAS PETRA, OLD QIBLA POINTED TO PETRA
you wouldnt shut up over it. you were promoting these same guys, their videos.

then

and since then
mosques pointing to mecca, not petra

radio silence, just pretend it never happened. selective amnesia. the xtian way.
xtians are fake, pathetic masquanderers who think if you throw enough sh**, some will stick.
you guys have failed every single argument thrown at islam.

ftr xtians are not christian. i respect christians.

you cant even participate with me when i educate you on the true identity of the jewish remnant in the bible
zech 12+ rev 11/12...
ie the real remnant are hidden amongst the palestinians, not the ashenazi/homer branch that belong to gog & magog
(the camp that was cut off as per zech 12)

refute my claim?
you havent and cant. you always disappear. who does that? ive never ignored an argument made against things ive said (unless it was just bickering).
any ot prophecy of a jewish return refers to babylonian exile.

even ezekiel 38 speaks of israel as in 12 tribes and is post messianic,,,.,.yet u were fingering yourself at the idea that it was modern israel and the arabs/muslims were gog&magog.

ezekiel 38 says it will be a land without borders, walls, no weapons.
'a peaceful and unsuspecting people'

isr. clearly is the oppsite in a very deliberate way....it revels in military technology. it was created and populated by ex ww1/2 vets (so not peaceful and unsuspecting). it's obsessed with borders and partition walls. the total opposite of ezekiel 38.

this was done, so you can't protest when you're judged one day.

bible says: up
xtians say : no, down, look down, bible is being cryptic.its only for us who haff the holy spirit in us.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Only a fool will argue that the Bible is preserved.
Really?

Start here…

 






Daze

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Really?

Start here…

I've already given several proofs in the post you have quoted. We both know i could give more. As i said above, only a fool would argue that the Bible has not been edited.
 






TrollingTroubles

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Really?

Start here…

did that with Tolkeins “the hobbit”, and it worked. Your point?

sooo, I just typed in “numerical miracles” in google and the first page of results was all about the Quran.

nothing on the bible. Sorry dude, but you’re just messing up real bad here.
 






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